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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box!

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 1, 2009, 10:16 PM

Post #1 of 49 (1208 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box!

On 07/01/2009 11:15 PM, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> 2009/7/2 Michael T. Dean:
>
>> Because Myth is meant to record TV, and LiveTV is for people who haven't
>> figured out how to use a DVR. :)
>>
> I think that view of MythTV is very restrictive for no real reasons
> other than LiveTV is really lacking there.
>
> LiveTV isn't implicitly bad, there are many channels where recordings
> make no sense other than watching it live: sport and news channel
> being the 2 most obvious categories.
>

I completely disagree. Sport and news broadcasts should also be
recorded. "But," people say, "It makes no sense to record the
news--it's not like I'll care about it next week." Well, do you
schedule your life so that you can start LiveTV exactly when the news
show you like comes on? Then why not schedule MythTV to record your
favorite news show(s). "But then I'll have to delete the old shows!"
No, that's why Myth has the options allowing you to specify, "Delete
oldest if this would exceed the max episodes," and, "Keep only one
episode," or, "Keep at most <#> episodes." And, with proper
prioritization, you can also ensure that the recording won't prevent
your seeing that great summer made-for-TV movie everyone's talking about.

"But," you may be thinking, "In this fast-paced world, the news is
/constantly/ changing, so watching the news show I like with the anchor
I like that started an hour ago means that I'll miss out on the latest
breaking news." So, why not schedule a news rule that records /every/
show on your favorite news channel (or every show between some specified
hours--like 6pm to midnight). Using the same, "Delete oldest..." and,
"Keep at most..." settings and an extremely low priority, you basically
have Myth always recording the most-current news for you--just in case
you decide you want to watch it.

Oh, and, you'll be able to say, "I've seen no evidence that this type of
scheduling causes mythbackend to eat memory," when people on the list
try to tell you otherwise.

And, as for sports, schedule them to record, too. /If/ you happen to be
home when the game starts /and/ you happen to have all your snacks ready
to go and all your friends showed up on time and ..., then go ahead and
watch it as it records. But, if you're running late at work and you
realize that you still need to stop by the market to pick up some
crudités and Vitamin water for the gang, you can send a quick text to
your friends that they should show up 20-minutes later but not to worry
because the game's recording so you can still watch it from the
beginning (and skip some of the commercials).

To make it easier, think of LiveTV as, "Manual TV," whereas scheduled
recordings are, "Automatic TV." I.e. Myth takes care of starting
scheduled recordings /for/ you, but /you/ have to go to the trouble of
starting LiveTV when you want and tuning to the channel you want. Used
properly, LiveTV becomes, "Test your input connections TV."

Oh, and as for, "Channel surfers," try to convince them that the chances
of them accidentally sitting down at exactly the right time to stumble
upon the start of a show that's actually better than the couple hundred
recorded shows they've told MythTV they actually /want/ to watch is
probably close to the chances of their winning the lottery. Usually,
channel surfing ends with someone's starting to watch something that's
"good enough" about 10-20 minutes after it started airing.

If those channel surfers spent that same channel-surfing time (or,
likely a tiny percentage of that channel-surfing time) setting up
recording schedules (i.e. do a movie search or a keyword search or a
genre search--or even just browse the EPG), then watching some
recording, they'd be able to sit down next time and watch /all/ of that
show whose end they would have accidentally stumbled upon while channel
surfing.

Once you learn to use a DVR, you'll be amazed at how freeing it is. The
point of a DVR is /not/ to record those shows that are so good you
/know/ you'll watch them (or so good that you /know/ you want to keep
them forever). The point of a DVR is to record /every/ show you might
/possibly/ want to watch so that you can watch it if you decide to. The
hardest part of getting to that point is learning not to feel guilty
when you delete some show (or 50 episodes of a show--been there; done
that; sorry DirecTV) when you decide you don't want to watch it.
Recordings, they're not just for great shows, anymore.

>> If you want to ensure that Myth always chooses the
>> least-likely-to-be-used-for-recordings capture card for LiveTV, enable the
>> setting:
>>
>> Avoid conflicts between live TV and scheduled shows
>> f enabled, live TV will choose a tuner card that is less likely to have
>> scheduled recordings rather than the best card available.
>>
> Unfortunately, this just doesn't seem work as expected in many cases.
>
> My backend has 5 tuners (DVB-T).
> I could be watching LiveTV on tuner 1, and the 4 others are free.
>

If you're watching LiveTV on input 1 with inputs on 4 other cards free
and a recording starts on input 1, you did not check that box. The,
"Avoid conflicts between live TV and scheduled shows," setting selects
the least-preferred input for LiveTV (which, if you have 5 inputs,
/should/ be the 5th one if you have your system properly
configured***). Recordings, however, will take the most-preferred
capture card in all cases (regardless of the, "Avoid conflicts..."
setting). Therefore, if you're watching LiveTV on an input on card 1
and a recording starts with 4 other cards free, you're either not using
that setting or
a) you entered LiveTV when 1 scheduled recording (that was on input 1)
had finished but 4 others that ran concurrently with the
recently-finished recording that was on input 1 are still in progress
(i.e. all 4 other inputs are in use), or
b) you've manually switched to another input. For example, you may
have switched inputs because only input 1 can pull the channel you're
currently watching--in which case you probably should reorganize your
cards so that the cards that can pull the largest subset of channels are
most preferred, otherwise you're telling MythTV not to record some shows
you want (as your most-preferred shows will record on the most-preferred
inputs, so you may actually have conflicts due to the fact that it's
recording a show that could be recorded on any of the 5 inputs but it's
using the only input that's capable of pulling the channel that's airing
a lower priority show).

*** Properly configured means that the most-preferred input has the
lowest input ID and /none/ of the inputs have input priorities. Note
that no one should /ever/ mess with card/input priorities without first
reading http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-12.html#ss12.6 , and,
really, without reading all of section 12, to find out how messing with
input priorities may actually mean you're telling MythTV not to record
some shows you want to see. Of course, after reading section 12, people
would realize that there is /never/ a good reason to mess with input
priorities and things actually work better when you just configure your
system properly, so they'd instead configure their systems properly.
But, regardless, the first step is reading section 12.

> One recording is now due on another channel and I get a message about
> either exit, record later or switch to that channel.
> This happens even with that particular configuration is set.
>
> So maybe, I'm just missing the logic behind "Avoid conflicts between
> live TV and scheduled shows", but it certainly doesn't seem to work
> sometimes: it asked me to change channels, when 4 other decoders were
> available.
>

With, "Avoid conflicts between live TV and scheduled shows," Myth
/always/ chooses the least-preferred input that's available when you
start LiveTV. So, if at the point that you enter LiveTV no other inputs
are in use (by either other users' LiveTV sessions or scheduled
recordings), you will get the least-preferred input. If you have 5
inputs connected, that means you won't get "kicked" from LiveTV until
the 5th concurrent scheduled recording begins.

Without, "Avoid conflicts between live TV and scheduled shows," Myth
will attempt to choose the most-preferred (assumed to be the
highest-quality) available input that's local to the frontend in use for
LiveTV. If there are no available inputs locally, it will choose to use
the most-preferred input available on some other system's backend. In
the simplest configurations, this means that /both/ LiveTV /and/
recordings try to use the best input, so /every/ recording that starts
when you're watching LiveTV would get you kicked from LiveTV.

> The concept of "best recorder" is also a bit flawed I believe in what
> I believe is the most common mythtv setup: people with a dual tuner
> card, all tuners have the same priority ...
>

Myth was not designed to only allow simplistic configurations. Ask all
the people in the US who have inputs (on dual-tuner or single-tuner
cards) that record high-definition, digital ClearQAM and other inputs
that record the S-Video (standard-definition, analog) output from cable
set-top-boxes, if they believe some of their inputs are better than others.

> The "record later" is also a very US thing I believe. Very few
> channels I know actual do re-broadcast a program at a later stage,
> certainly not in Australia or France where I'm most familiar

Even in the US, a large number of shows (often the best shows--as those
are the ones the networks tend to hate the most :) are never re-aired.
"Record later," really means, "I'd rather miss the scheduled recording
so I can see the end of this show that I started watching 20-minutes
after it started and during which I'm wasting my life watching
commercials all because I can't be bothered to choose to schedule
recordings so I can watch TV on /my/ schedule--and, even though I have 4
free inputs--I can't be bothered to exit LiveTV and re-enter it, which I
wouldn't have to do if I had only enabled the setting, 'Avoid conflicts
between live TV and scheduled shows'." If the show MythTV is trying to
record never re-airs, you /will/ miss the show if you choose, "Record
later." With a proper configuration and sufficient inputs, you
shouldn't ever be faced with this dilemma, but the only way to be
sure--in the face of multiple concurrent recordings--is to abstain from
LiveTV completely.

Mike
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jyavenard at gmail

Jul 1, 2009, 10:52 PM

Post #2 of 49 (1156 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Hi

2009/7/2 Michael T. Dean <mtdean[at]thirdcontact.com>:

> I completely disagree. Sport and news broadcasts should also be recorded.
> "But," people say, "It makes no sense to record the news--it's not like
> I'll care about it next week." Well, do you schedule your life so that you
> can start LiveTV exactly when the news show you like comes on? Then why not
> schedule MythTV to record your favorite news show(s). "But then I'll have
> to delete the old shows!" No, that's why Myth has the options allowing you

[great (and very entertaining) post snipped]

I really enjoyed reading your post here...

What I'm guessing here is that the reason you don't see the same way
other people are seeing things (including myself) is that you don't
have kids ...

Maybe I'm too old (36) but I can not remember the last time I had the
chance to plan to sit down and watch a recordings I had made earlier.
When I did configure MythTV to record specific shows exactly like you
describe I found that:
1- it takes forever to go through all the programs and decide what is
it I'd like to watch, and mainly, what is it my wife would like to
watch (she will never be able to get through all the recording
options)
2- When I did make up all those recordings, I just never got the time
to sit down and watch them.

Yes, I admit, I am now a passive tv watcher. and I often watch what's
on. Stuff I wouldn't have recorded anyway because I didn't know about
it or because looking at the TV guide, it didn't seem that great ; but
in the end turned out to be great show.

We have a few channels with very little ads there, no ads to skip. and
if there are, I've been interrupted enough to be about 1 hour late on
the program so I can fast forward quickly.

I like the ability to do stuff in my living room, playing with my kid
or cooking with the TV running in the background and if I hear
something I find interesting then I watch.

But the time I used to have the chance to sit down, and watch TV
without being interrupted, is long gone.

And finally, that you don't see why people like to use LiveTV, is
probably the best reason for you not to tell them that they shouldn't
use it.
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gull at gull

Jul 1, 2009, 11:11 PM

Post #3 of 49 (1157 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Michael T. Dean wrote:
> And, as for sports, schedule them to record, too. /If/ you happen to
> be home when the game starts /and/ you happen to have all your snacks
> ready to go and all your friends showed up on time and ..., then go
> ahead and watch it as it records.
That works until the game enters extra innings. Then you get to miss
the ending, unless you use LiveTV. (Unless there's a way to extend a
recording "on the fly" that I don't know about.)

> ...and, even though I have 4 free inputs--I can't be bothered to exit
> LiveTV and re-enter it...
What I wonder is why Myth isn't smart enough, if an input is in use, to
check whether the same channel is available on another input instead of
forcing the user to bail out. This could be useful in other situations,
too -- e.g., if the input fails to gain a lock, or if the channel change
script fails, it'd be nice to have the recording "fail over" to another
input.

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jarod at wilsonet

Jul 1, 2009, 11:17 PM

Post #4 of 49 (1156 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On Thursday 02 July 2009 02:11:49 David Brodbeck wrote:
> Michael T. Dean wrote:
> > And, as for sports, schedule them to record, too. /If/ you happen to
> > be home when the game starts /and/ you happen to have all your snacks
> > ready to go and all your friends showed up on time and ..., then go
> > ahead and watch it as it records.
> That works until the game enters extra innings. Then you get to miss
> the ending, unless you use LiveTV. (Unless there's a way to extend a
> recording "on the fly" that I don't know about.)

There is.

> > ...and, even though I have 4 free inputs--I can't be bothered to exit
> > LiveTV and re-enter it...
> What I wonder is why Myth isn't smart enough, if an input is in use, to
> check whether the same channel is available on another input instead of
> forcing the user to bail out. This could be useful in other situations,
> too -- e.g., if the input fails to gain a lock, or if the channel change
> script fails, it'd be nice to have the recording "fail over" to another
> input.

That would probably be more optimal. As they say, "patches welcome!" ;)

--
Jarod Wilson
jarod[at]wilsonet.com
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gull at gull

Jul 1, 2009, 11:21 PM

Post #5 of 49 (1158 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Jarod Wilson wrote:
> That would probably be more optimal. As they say, "patches welcome!" ;)
>
I suspect the real answer is that Myth's scheduler just isn't very
agile. I've noticed when I add a new show it takes a minute or two for
the scheduler to add it to the upcoming recordings list, so it probably
just can't reschedule fast enough to cope with that kind of situation.

This also poses problems for joining something "in progress" without
LiveTV. I don't think the scheduler will start a recording on a show
that's already started; I think it will always try to wait for the next
showing.

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jarod at wilsonet

Jul 1, 2009, 11:35 PM

Post #6 of 49 (1158 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On Thursday 02 July 2009 02:21:51 David Brodbeck wrote:
> Jarod Wilson wrote:
> > That would probably be more optimal. As they say, "patches welcome!" ;)
> >
> I suspect the real answer is that Myth's scheduler just isn't very
> agile. I've noticed when I add a new show it takes a minute or two for
> the scheduler to add it to the upcoming recordings list, so it probably
> just can't reschedule fast enough to cope with that kind of situation.

Don't know the scheduler code at all myself, but in head its like this:

You rarely add a recording seconds before it starts, so the scheduler
can be lazy, only periodically checking if there's new stuff to get
scheduled. Otherwise, we're polling constantly for almost no reason.
The actual act of rescheduling can be done plenty fast, once we know
there's something to reschedule, I believe.

A "reschedule immediate[*] recordings NOW" interface might be a nice
addition (might already exist and just need more wiring, I dunno).

[*] immediate ~= in the next hour or so

> This also poses problems for joining something "in progress" without
> LiveTV. I don't think the scheduler will start a recording on a show
> that's already started; I think it will always try to wait for the next
> showing.

By default, yes, I believe that is the case. But you can override it
and tell it to record anyway.

--
Jarod Wilson
jarod[at]wilsonet.com
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linux at thehobsons

Jul 2, 2009, 12:15 AM

Post #7 of 49 (1159 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Michael T. Dean wrote:

>Oh, and as for, "Channel surfers," try to convince them that the
>chances of them accidentally sitting down at exactly the right time
>to stumble upon the start of a show that's actually better than the
>couple hundred recorded shows they've told MythTV they actually
>/want/ to watch is probably close to the chances of their winning
>the lottery. Usually, channel surfing ends with someone's starting
>to watch something that's "good enough" about 10-20 minutes after it
>started airing.
>
>If those channel surfers spent that same channel-surfing time (or,
>likely a tiny percentage of that channel-surfing time) setting up
>recording schedules (i.e. do a movie search or a keyword search or a
>genre search--or even just browse the EPG), then watching some
>recording, they'd be able to sit down next time and watch /all/ of
>that show whose end they would have accidentally stumbled upon while
>channel surfing.

Whilst I agree mostly with what you say, and I hardly ever watch live
TV now, just occasionally I do go channel surfing. And it's
surprising how often I'll end up finding something I quite like but
would never have considered watching based on title or description.
Yes it's often half way through, but then I tend to watch stuff where
that's not the end of the world.

At present I'm rather constrained as I having got a Myth frontend for
the TV yet, and the old PowerBook I use with EyeTV doesn't have a
particularly large HD. But I'm working on it as time and budget
allows.

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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ylee at pobox

Jul 2, 2009, 12:46 AM

Post #8 of 49 (1156 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard[at]gmail.com> says:
> LiveTV isn't implicitly bad, there are many channels where recordings
> make no sense other than watching it live: sport and news channel
> being the 2 most obvious categories.

As Mike Dean advises, record them too. Otherwise, one is missing out
on the ability to skip commercials (or skip to commercials, when
dealing with the Super Bowl).

I have a rule that records _The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer_ every
day. It only keeps the newest recording, priority is set to -1 so it
won't interfere with other rules, and the scheduler will pick
whichever airing (3pm or 6pm) least interferes with other rules,
anyway.

> The concept of "best recorder" is also a bit flawed I believe in
> what I believe is the most common mythtv setup: people with a dual
> tuner card, all tuners have the same priority ...

I think Mike misinterpreted your above statement. I agree that it
would be nice to be able to tell the scheduler that multiple tuners
are identical in recording quality and thus completely fungible (such
as in my case, where all programs--whether cable or over-the-air--are
written directly to disk in pure MPEG-2 streams directly from the
providers).

> The "record later" is also a very US thing I believe.

Commskip is also a (mostly) US-only thing, but that doesn't make us
Americans any less grateful for its existence.

US broadcast-network programs are rarely rerun within any given
two-weeks period that ScheduleDirect's feed covers. Cable is
different; any given movie or first-run cable TV series will be aired
many times during that same period.

--
Frontend/backend: P4 3.0GHz, 1.5TB software RAID 5 array
Backend: Quad-core Xeon 1.6GHz, 6.6TB sw RAID 6
Video inputs: Four high-definition over FireWire/OTA
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mikep at randomtraveller

Jul 2, 2009, 5:02 AM

Post #9 of 49 (1133 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Yeechang Lee wrote:
> Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard[at]gmail.com> says:
>> LiveTV isn't implicitly bad, there are many channels where recordings
>> make no sense other than watching it live: sport and news channel
>> being the 2 most obvious categories.
>
> As Mike Dean advises, record them too. Otherwise, one is missing out
> on the ability to skip commercials (or skip to commercials, when
> dealing with the Super Bowl).
>
So... you recorded 9/11 to watch it later? There *are* occasions when you want
to watch something as it happens. Like the moon landings, for example (3:30 am
here in the UK. I was one of the few with a TV. My room was crammed with other
hostel dwellers).

I agree that myth is primarily a dvr, but that's the way that development has
been emphasised lately. The "myth" in myth is from "mythical convergence
device", and we would do well to remember what it is we're supposed to be
converging: live tv is one of those functions, and our tv habits go back to the
fifties.

--

Mike Perkins

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gravityhammer at gmail

Jul 2, 2009, 5:10 AM

Post #10 of 49 (1135 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Mike
Perkins<mikep[at]randomtraveller.org.uk> wrote:
> Yeechang Lee wrote:
>>
>> Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard[at]gmail.com> says:
>>>
>>> LiveTV isn't implicitly bad, there are many channels where recordings
>>> make no sense other than watching it live: sport and news channel
>>> being the 2 most obvious categories.
>>
>> As Mike Dean advises, record them too. Otherwise, one is missing out
>> on the ability to skip commercials (or skip to commercials, when
>> dealing with the Super Bowl).
>>
> So... you recorded 9/11 to watch it later? There *are* occasions when you
> want to watch something as it happens. Like the moon landings, for example
> (3:30 am here in the UK. I was one of the few with a TV. My room was crammed
> with other hostel dwellers).
>
> I agree that myth is primarily a dvr, but that's the way that development
> has been emphasised lately. The "myth" in myth is from "mythical convergence
> device", and we would do well to remember what it is we're supposed to be
> converging: live tv is one of those functions, and our tv habits go back to
> the fifties.
>

Why is it that nearly every time somebody mentions using LiveTV, we
get the same voices telling the individual "YOU ARE USING MYTHTV
WRONG!"? How in the world is that helpful?

I use LiveTV all the time, and, frankly, would go a different route
for my DVR if iMyth didn't support it. I'd rather change DVR software
than have to pay monthly for yet another cable box.
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drayson at net1plus

Jul 2, 2009, 6:00 AM

Post #11 of 49 (1135 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

> > 2009/7/2 Michael T. Dean <mtdean[at]thirdcontact.com>:
> >> Because Myth is meant to record TV, and LiveTV is for people who
> haven't
> >> figured out how to use a DVR. :)
> >
> > I think that view of MythTV is very restrictive for no real reasons
> > other than LiveTV is really lacking there.
> >
> > LiveTV isn't implicitly bad, there are many channels where recordings
> > make no sense other than watching it live: sport and news channel
> > being the 2 most obvious categories.
> >
>
> I have actually used the livetv feature for sports more often than any
> other sort of programming. I mean this way I can show up 1 hour late
> for a 3.5 hour football game and still see the game from the beginning
> and miss the highly annoying commercials in the process.
>
> John
> _______________________________________________

Technically that is not Live. In order for this to work you would have had
to either started recording the game via a schedule and to then start
watching the recording while it is in progress.

I do see 2 ways for this to be considered live.
Someone else being home or you having remote access to start LiveTV and then
pausing it, while you run home.
Or I could suppose, you turn on LiveTV, pause, and then run out to get the
snacks.

Marc

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 2, 2009, 7:52 AM

Post #12 of 49 (1126 views)
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Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On 07/02/2009 09:00 AM, Marc Tousignant wrote:
>> I have actually used the livetv feature for sports more often than any
>> other sort of programming. I mean this way I can show up 1 hour late
>> for a 3.5 hour football game and still see the game from the beginning
>> and miss the highly annoying commercials in the process.
> Technically that is not Live. In order for this to work you would have had
> to either started recording the game via a schedule and to then start
> watching the recording while it is in progress.
>
> I do see 2 ways for this to be considered live.
> Someone else being home or you having remote access to start LiveTV and then
> pausing it, while you run home.
> Or I could suppose, you turn on LiveTV, pause, and then run out to get the
> snacks.

Which is exactly the point I was trying to make about the difference
between /working/ to watch the show you want (LiveTV) and having your
computer work for you (scheduled recording). I /know/ that setting up a
recording rule--even if it were a one-time rule--would take less time
than ensuring you're around to start LiveTV just as the desired sports
event started, then pausing it (or even hitting R) and doing other stuff
until you're ready to watch it. And, you'd have to make sure you start
LiveTV (whenever) and pause it /after/ the desired show began
airing--otherwise, if you happen to take too long to get those snacks
and the game ended, Myth--being paused on the pre-game show--would be
allowed to expire the game, but not the pre-game show. And, with the
LiveTV + pause approach, you're preventing anyone else from using the
Myth box.

I'm guessing that John was actually trying to say he uses scheduled
recordings instead of LiveTV for sports, but mistyped.

Mike
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 2, 2009, 7:59 AM

Post #13 of 49 (1129 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On 07/02/2009 02:11 AM, David Brodbeck wrote:
> Michael T. Dean wrote:
>> And, as for sports, schedule them to record, too. /If/ you happen to
>> be home when the game starts /and/ you happen to have all your snacks
>> ready to go and all your friends showed up on time and ..., then go
>> ahead and watch it as it records.
> That works until the game enters extra innings. Then you get to miss
> the ending, unless you use LiveTV. (Unless there's a way to extend a
> recording "on the fly" that I don't know about.)

There is. Plus, there's the "category to overrecord" hack, and there's
the option to just always put a "Time to record past end of show" on
shows you know are likely to run over. I generally put an end late on
every sports recording rule /as well as/ every show airing on the same
channel as the sports show until after the evening news (generally, when
they tend to catch up if they delay the later shows as opposed to
joining "our regularly-scheduled programming, already in progress").

Mike
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 2, 2009, 8:23 AM

Post #14 of 49 (1116 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On 07/02/2009 01:52 AM, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> 2009/7/2 Michael T. Dean:
>> I completely disagree. Sport and news broadcasts should also be recorded.
>> "But," people say, "It makes no sense to record the news--it's not like
>> I'll care about it next week." Well, do you schedule your life so that you
>> can start LiveTV exactly when the news show you like comes on? Then why not
>> schedule MythTV to record your favorite news show(s). "But then I'll have
>> to delete the old shows!" No, that's why Myth has the options allowing you
>>
> [great (and very entertaining) post snipped]
>
> I really enjoyed reading your post here...
>
> What I'm guessing here is that the reason you don't see the same way
> other people are seeing things (including myself) is that you don't
> have kids ...
>
> Maybe I'm too old (36) but I can not remember the last time I had the
> chance to plan to sit down and watch a recordings I had made earlier.
> When I did configure MythTV to record specific shows exactly like you
> describe I found that:
> 1- it takes forever to go through all the programs and decide what is
> it I'd like to watch, and mainly, what is it my wife would like to
> watch (she will never be able to get through all the recording
> options)
> 2- When I did make up all those recordings, I just never got the time
> to sit down and watch them.
>
> Yes, I admit, I am now a passive tv watcher. and I often watch what's
> on. Stuff I wouldn't have recorded anyway because I didn't know about
> it or because looking at the TV guide, it didn't seem that great ; but
> in the end turned out to be great show.
>
> We have a few channels with very little ads there, no ads to skip. and
> if there are, I've been interrupted enough to be about 1 hour late on
> the program so I can fast forward quickly.
>
> I like the ability to do stuff in my living room, playing with my kid
> or cooking with the TV running in the background and if I hear
> something I find interesting then I watch.
>
> But the time I used to have the chance to sit down, and watch TV
> without being interrupted, is long gone.
>
> And finally, that you don't see why people like to use LiveTV, is
> probably the best reason for you not to tell them that they shouldn't
> use it.

That's what I meant by, "The hardest part of getting to that point is
learning not to feel guilty when you delete some show (or 50 episodes of
a show--been there; done that; sorry DirecTV) when you decide you don't
want to watch it." You can still tell Myth to record things (and allow
them to be autoexpired) /even/ if you don't know for sure you'll have
time to watch them.

I can't, however, help you out with the problem that it takes too long
to decide what to watch. Though, with things like the Watch List and
well-designed recording group usage (and filtering), it should take a
/lot/ less time than channel surfing to something that's good enough.
Though I do admit that even for me--a guy without kids--choosing what to
watch from the 900-some recordings I have (and I'm a watch & delete guy)
takes more effort than just hitting the LiveTV button and watching
whatever the network feeds me... :)

Mike
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bderman at gmail

Jul 2, 2009, 8:33 AM

Post #15 of 49 (1116 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:23 AM, Michael T. Dean wrote:

> I can't, however, help you out with the problem that it takes too long
> to decide what to watch.

I can. I set up low priority rules to record everything with "Pilot"
in the description and whatever schedulesdirect tells me is the first
and second airing of a program. That generally gives me enough of an
idea of what's new and if I actually want to watch it.

No more channel surfing or watching network TV ads to tell me when
something "good" is going to be starting up. On the off chance I do
find something new and good, I turn it into a regular rule and
typically wait for a few episodes to record before I start watching
since my free time tends to come in large chunks, not 30 minute or 1
hour intervals at night.
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 2, 2009, 8:47 AM

Post #16 of 49 (1116 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On 07/02/2009 02:35 AM, Jarod Wilson wrote:
> On Thursday 02 July 2009 02:21:51 David Brodbeck wrote:
>
>> Jarod Wilson wrote:
>>
>>> That would probably be more optimal. As they say, "patches welcome!" ;)
>> I suspect the real answer is that Myth's scheduler just isn't very
>> agile. I've noticed when I add a new show it takes a minute or two for
>> the scheduler to add it to the upcoming recordings list, so it probably
>> just can't reschedule fast enough to cope with that kind of situation.
>>
> Don't know the scheduler code at all myself, but in head its like this:
>
> You rarely add a recording seconds before it starts, so the scheduler
> can be lazy, only periodically checking if there's new stuff to get
> scheduled. Otherwise, we're polling constantly for almost no reason.
> The actual act of rescheduling can be done plenty fast, once we know
> there's something to reschedule, I believe.
>
> A "reschedule immediate[*] recordings NOW" interface might be a nice
> addition (might already exist and just need more wiring, I dunno).
>
> [*] immediate ~= in the next hour or so
>

When you add a new rule, Myth modifies the existing schedule to include
that new rule as opposed to doing a complete reschedule from scratch
(which should /only/ be done when the master backend first starts and
just after mythfilldatabase runs). Any time that something that could
affect the recording schedule occurs (including creation of a new rule,
the choice you specify in that dialog you're shown when a recording
wants your LiveTV input, or shutting down a backend, or ...) the
scheduler runs immediately to account for the changes.

I think the main reason that the scheduler acts the way it does--and
assumes that 2 inputs are /never/ equal is for
consistency/predictability. If it /always/ acts the same way, there are
many fewer problems/corner-cases to deal with in the code. And, since
the option, "Avoid conflicts..." is available for those who choose to
use LiveTV and have "equal" inputs, there's no need to add problems for
those of us who don't use LiveTV. :) If you want to use LiveTV and
have both equal and not equal inputs, you can choose to put your
preferred LiveTV card as the last--or, better, with at least 2 digital
cards and multirec, you can even do some tricks to get a high-quality
input for LiveTV and still generally avoid getting kicked when a
recording starts (
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/369358#369358 ).

>> This also poses problems for joining something "in progress" without
>> LiveTV. I don't think the scheduler will start a recording on a show
>> that's already started; I think it will always try to wait for the next
>> showing.
>>
> By default, yes, I believe that is the case. But you can override it
> and tell it to record anyway.

The scheduler will only defer recording of a show that's already in
progress /if/ a rerun of that show is shown in the available listings
(i.e. if it re-airs in the next 2 weeks). If a rerun is /not/ listed,
Myth's scheduler will allow the partial recording. I.e. it does what
you probably want when setting an "any time" rule--it records the
/whole/ show instead of part of it.

However, if you want the already-in-progress partial airing, you should
not be using an "any time" rule, but should use "Record only this
showing"--which will always (even if there's a rerun within 2 weeks)
record the specified showing.

Note also that depending on your settings, the UI in LiveTV may make it
/seem/ like you can't tell Myth to record an already-in-progress show
without LiveTV. There are settings:

Use select to change the channel in the program guide
If enabled, the Select key will change the channel while using the
program guide during live TV. If disabled, the select key will bring up
the recording options screen.

and

Record Threshold
If the option to use Select to change the channel is on, pressing Select
on a show that is at least this many minutes into the future will
schedule a recording.

So, with the first option enabled, if a show begins far enough into the
future (by default 16 minutes), Myth will just add a rule to record it.
If it's already airing, it will switch to that channel.

Mike
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 2, 2009, 8:53 AM

Post #17 of 49 (1118 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On 07/02/2009 03:46 AM, Yeechang Lee wrote:
> Jean-Yves Avenard says:
>
>> The concept of "best recorder" is also a bit flawed I believe in
>> what I believe is the most common mythtv setup: people with a dual
>> tuner card, all tuners have the same priority ...
>>
> I think Mike misinterpreted your above statement. I agree that it
> would be nice to be able to tell the scheduler that multiple tuners
> are identical in recording quality and thus completely fungible (such
> as in my case, where all programs--whether cable or over-the-air--are
> written directly to disk in pure MPEG-2 streams directly from the
> providers).

Ah, yes. I did misunderstand. In the case described (a couple of
identical inputs), the LiveTV user should just enable, "Avoid
conflicts..." and Myth will generally do the right thing. Of course, if
you only have 2 inputs and you happen to have 2 concurrent recordings
such that the one on input 1 finishes first and you enter LiveTV while
the 2nd input is still in use, you'll still get the first/most-preferred
input, but if that happens frequently, a new capture card would likely
solve the problem... :)

Mike
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 2, 2009, 9:15 AM

Post #18 of 49 (1118 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On 07/02/2009 02:17 AM, Jarod Wilson wrote:
> On Thursday 02 July 2009 02:11:49 David Brodbeck wrote:
>
>> Michael T. Dean wrote:
>>> ...and, even though I have 4 free inputs--I can't be bothered to exit
>>> LiveTV and re-enter it...
>>>
>> What I wonder is why Myth isn't smart enough, if an input is in use, to
>> check whether the same channel is available on another input instead of
>> forcing the user to bail out. This could be useful in other situations,
>> too -- e.g., if the input fails to gain a lock, or if the channel change
>> script fails, it'd be nice to have the recording "fail over" to another
>> input.
>>
> That would probably be more optimal. As they say, "patches welcome!" ;)

Oh, there is also an option (that I thought was trunk only, but turns
out it's also in -fixes--thanks for mentioning it, Shane):

Allow live TV to move scheduled shows
If enabled, scheduled recordings will be moved to other cards (where
possible), so that live TV will not be interrupted.

So, likely the real problem is that the user isn't smart enough to
enable that option (which defaults to false). ;)

Mike
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gull at gull

Jul 2, 2009, 9:32 AM

Post #19 of 49 (1116 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Brad DerManouelian wrote:
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:23 AM, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>
>> I can't, however, help you out with the problem that it takes too long
>> to decide what to watch.
>
> I can. I set up low priority rules to record everything with "Pilot" in
> the description and whatever schedulesdirect tells me is the first and
> second airing of a program. That generally gives me enough of an idea of
> what's new and if I actually want to watch it.

That sounds like an excellent idea. Do you have examples of rules like
that?
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 2, 2009, 9:37 AM

Post #20 of 49 (1119 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On 07/02/2009 12:32 PM, David Brodbeck wrote:
> Brad DerManouelian wrote:
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:23 AM, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>>> I can't, however, help you out with the problem that it takes too long
>>> to decide what to watch.
>> I can. I set up low priority rules to record everything with "Pilot"
>> in the description and whatever schedulesdirect tells me is the first
>> and second airing of a program. That generally gives me enough of an
>> idea of what's new and if I actually want to watch it.
> That sounds like an excellent idea. Do you have examples of rules
> like that?

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/188789#188789

Mike
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stichnot at gmail

Jul 2, 2009, 10:35 AM

Post #21 of 49 (1106 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Michael T. Dean<mtdean[at]thirdcontact.com> wrote:
> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/188789#188789

I have always set my recording rules using mythweb (and I'm at work
right now so I can't try this out using the frontend interface). Is
it possible to do this via mythweb in 0.21?

Jim
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Jul 2, 2009, 10:38 AM

Post #22 of 49 (1107 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

On 07/02/2009 01:35 PM, Jim Stichnoth wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>
>> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/188789#188789
>>
> I have always set my recording rules using mythweb (and I'm at work
> right now so I can't try this out using the frontend interface). Is
> it possible to do this via mythweb in 0.21?

It's possible, but you don't get the examples. I use MythWeb to create
all my "normal" recording rules, but always use the frontend to create
my custom rules.

Mike
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gull at gull

Jul 2, 2009, 10:39 AM

Post #23 of 49 (1108 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Michael T. Dean wrote:
> Oh, there is also an option (that I thought was trunk only, but turns
> out it's also in -fixes--thanks for mentioning it, Shane):
>
> Allow live TV to move scheduled shows
> If enabled, scheduled recordings will be moved to other cards (where
> possible), so that live TV will not be interrupted.
>
> So, likely the real problem is that the user isn't smart enough to
> enable that option (which defaults to false). ;)

Ah, good to know. So the answer is "it's in there." ;)

That would have been very useful before Comcast took away all my analog
feeds. Now I only have the one cable box to work with so it's a bit
moot. ;)

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ylee at pobox

Jul 2, 2009, 11:57 AM

Post #24 of 49 (1107 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Mike Perkins <mikep[at]randomtraveller.org.uk> says:
> So... you recorded 9/11 to watch it later?

Yes, I did. I was at work already (US West coast stock-market hours)
when the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon occurred,
and by the time we were sent home the bulk of the "news" that day had
occurred already, if you will. I remember coming home and watching
TiVo recordings from that day that had turned into coverage.

Live TV makes sense with two constraints: A) An unscheduled,
unexpected event occurs, with coverage on multiple channels and no
particular reason to choose between any one of them, and B) only one
tuner. That was the case for the 2002 and 2004 US elections, but I
can't think of any other times that I used Live TV with a TiVo (which,
back then, was only a single-tuner device except for DirecTV
subscribers). It certainly doesn't make sense for me today, with four
tuners.

Yes, if space aliens attack Chicago tomorrow, I'd use Live TV to flip
between channels, but only because setting up recording rules to
record each news channel using preexisting scheduling data (news
program at 10am, talk show at 10:30, etc.) would be unwieldy (but
still possible, if desired). Now, if the aliens' attack was known
about in advance, I could be sure that every channel would have its
version of special coverage of the events, so this problem wouldn't
exist.

Sports, by contrast, isn't the ideal example for Live TV. Only one
channel is used, and the start of the program is known ahead of
time. As has been advised both in this thread and many, many other
times on this list over the years, sports-recording rules should use
padding at the end.

> There *are* occasions when you want to watch something as it
> happens. Like the moon landings, for example (3:30 am here in the
> UK. I was one of the few with a TV. My room was crammed with other
> hostel dwellers).

And, looking back, you don't wish you could've saved it for watching
again later? Or that there weren't moments when it'd have been nice to
skip back a few seconds to watch a moment of the coverage again, like
to figure out whether Armstrong said "One small step for man" or "for
_a_ man"?[1] The latter is possible with MythTV's Live TV, but not the
former for any meaningful length of time.

[1] Still unclear, even today.

> I agree that myth is primarily a dvr, but that's the way that
> development has been emphasised lately. The "myth" in myth is from
> "mythical convergence device", and we would do well to remember what
> it is we're supposed to be converging: live tv is one of those
> functions, and our tv habits go back to the fifties.

Perhaps ingrained habits, or lack thereof, do make a difference
here; I was never much of a channel-flipper even before buying my TiVo
in mid-2000, and certainly that device weaned me of any remaining
live-TV inclinations.

That doesn't change the fact that, except in very, very, very specific
circumstances of the type described above, using Live TV is
unnecessary. Yes, this means that the best thing to do with those who
insist on it is to explain to them how much nicer it is to have a
Watch Recordings list jam-packed with good stuff already.

Actually, thinking of Live TV this way shifts the onus. How about
this? "Using Live TV means you haven't recorded enough."

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ylee at pobox

Jul 2, 2009, 12:04 PM

Post #25 of 49 (1108 views)
Permalink

Re: LiveTV conflicts with scheduled recording - despite unused tuners on the same box! [In reply to]

Phil Bridges <gravityhammer[at]gmail.com> says:
> Why is it that nearly every time somebody mentions using LiveTV, we
> get the same voices telling the individual "YOU ARE USING MYTHTV
> WRONG!"? How in the world is that helpful?

It doesn't change the fact that, yes, you are using MythTV wrong. Or,
at least, for something it is not primarily designed for.

> I use LiveTV all the time, and, frankly, would go a different route
> for my DVR if iMyth didn't support it. I'd rather change DVR
> software than have to pay monthly for yet another cable box.

I have to admit I'm stumped by the above. I don't understand the
connection between MythTV's Live TV and the need, or not, for another
cable box. This, I suppose, could tie into what Jean-Yves Avenard
wrote elsewhere in the thread:

> And finally, that you don't see why people like to use LiveTV, is
> probably the best reason for you not to tell them that they
> shouldn't use it.

This is in many ways the most-effective riposte to me and other anti
MythTV-Live TV posters; it is both logical and impossible to respond
to. So I'll stop now.

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