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Just how great can VDPAU be?

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ylee at pobox

Nov 20, 2008, 12:58 AM

Post #1 of 77 (8652 views)
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Just how great can VDPAU be?

Like everyone else, Nvidia's surprise announcement[1] of VDPAU has
excited me. I've already begun imagining buying an inexpensive fanless
8-series card and instantly making my frontend capable of playing
full-bit h.264 HD-PVR recordings as well as the MPEG-2 recordings it
does such a great job with, instead of building a new high-powered
Core 2 Duo box.

On second thought, though, I'm not sure how realistic this is. My
understanding is that VDPAU is basically an updated version of
PureVision, Nvidia's longstanding hardware-dependent video
decoding-offloader for Windows.

I watch AVSForum's HD-PVR forum for Windows users. Intermixed with the
numerous messages detailing forum members' ever more-convoluted ways
of recording and watching their TV shows--Rube Goldberg-like setups
that would make any MythTV user alternately burst out in laughter and
shake his head in pity---are many reports of how horsepower-dependent
HD-PVR recordings are, even for Core 2 Duo owners using CoreAVC. In
other words, despite their having PureVision already, things don't
seem to be any better performancewise on that side on the pond.

Am I mistaken? What am I missing, if anything? The recently-posted
test of VDPAU and mplayer
(<URL:http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/357702#357702>)
is certainly *very* encouraging regarding both GPU and (more
importantly) CPU usage, but a) Jason used a Core 2 Duo box and b) as
we all know, mplayer isn't the MythTV internal player.

[1] 2008 has certainly been a year of exciting MythTV-related
announcements, eh? It opened with the HD-PVR announcement--something
we'd all hoped for but, I don't think, anyone expected quite so
soon--and now it is closing with this.

--
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Backend: Quad-core Xeon 1.6GHz, 6.6TB sw RAID 6
Video inputs: Four high-definition over FireWire/OTA
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raymond at wagnerrp

Nov 20, 2008, 1:12 AM

Post #2 of 77 (8562 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

Yeechang Lee wrote:
> On second thought, though, I'm not sure how realistic this is. My
> understanding is that VDPAU is basically an updated version of
> PureVision, Nvidia's longstanding hardware-dependent video
> decoding-offloader for Windows.
>
> I watch AVSForum's HD-PVR forum for Windows users. Intermixed with the
> numerous messages detailing forum members' ever more-convoluted ways
> of recording and watching their TV shows--Rube Goldberg-like setups
> that would make any MythTV user alternately burst out in laughter and
> shake his head in pity---are many reports of how horsepower-dependent
> HD-PVR recordings are, even for Core 2 Duo owners using CoreAVC. In
> other words, despite their having PureVision already, things don't
> seem to be any better performancewise on that side on the pond
The Windows version is called PureVideo (not PureVision). There have
been multiple versions. The 6-series through some of the 8-series only
supported partial h.264 offload, meaning much of the processing still
had to be done on the CPU. Furthermore, the Windows hardware decoders
are not free. You have to buy a directshow codec from nVidia, or
otherwise get one with BluRay/HDDVD playback software.

VDPAU, as it currently, exists is all-or-nothing. Either you get full
decode offload, or its left entirely up to the CPU. When using it,
regardless of the content being played, CPU load remains at only a few
percent.
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mark.kendall at gmail

Nov 20, 2008, 2:21 AM

Post #3 of 77 (8546 views)
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Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

2008/11/20 Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox>:
> Am I mistaken? What am I missing, if anything?

OK - so I've been spending far too much time playing with VDPAU today
to resist responding :)

As I type I've got mythtv playing live tv using vdpau for playback.
Double rate temporal deinterlacer, standard def MPEG2 source, (mostly)
working osd, core2due 2.4gz, 8800GT and 1GB ram. Current utilisation
hovers at around 1-2%.

Switch to the 1080i/h264 channel (think high bitrate) - 1-2%.

Switch to an old BBC HD h264 recording (again 1080i/high bitrate) - load 1-2%.

No tearing, vertical sync seems to work 'out of the box' and
deinterlacing quality is reasonable (though the implementation is
simple and some further work could improve it).

The main downside at the moment is picture quality (and the same
issues apply to mplayer - so appear to be related to the state of the
api/driver):-

- all my h264 streams break up intermittently. I think nvidia have
acknowledged that higher profile streams still have issues. Otherwise
quality is very good.
- all my mpeg2 streams and recordings exhibit some form of vertical
'blockiness'. It varies by source and I even see it on the nvidia
'reference' clips.

All told, a pretty impressive start from nvidia - but it needs work.

Regards

Mark
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bobbygill at rogers

Nov 20, 2008, 10:42 AM

Post #4 of 77 (8519 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 5:21 AM, Mark Kendall <mark.kendall [at] gmail>wrote:

> 2008/11/20 Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox>:
> > Am I mistaken? What am I missing, if anything?
>
> OK - so I've been spending far too much time playing with VDPAU today
> to resist responding :)
>
> As I type I've got mythtv playing live tv using vdpau for playback.
> Double rate temporal deinterlacer, standard def MPEG2 source, (mostly)
> working osd, core2due 2.4gz, 8800GT and 1GB ram. Current utilisation
> hovers at around 1-2%.
>
> Switch to the 1080i/h264 channel (think high bitrate) - 1-2%.
>
> Switch to an old BBC HD h264 recording (again 1080i/high bitrate) - load
> 1-2%.
>
> No tearing, vertical sync seems to work 'out of the box' and
> deinterlacing quality is reasonable (though the implementation is
> simple and some further work could improve it).
>
> The main downside at the moment is picture quality (and the same
> issues apply to mplayer - so appear to be related to the state of the
> api/driver):-
>
> - all my h264 streams break up intermittently. I think nvidia have
> acknowledged that higher profile streams still have issues. Otherwise
> quality is very good.
> - all my mpeg2 streams and recordings exhibit some form of vertical
> 'blockiness'. It varies by source and I even see it on the nvidia
> 'reference' clips.
>
> All told, a pretty impressive start from nvidia - but it needs work.
>
> Regards
>
> Mark
>

I don't wish to take this thread OT but is this VDPAU included in newer
drivers? I have an 8800GT and would love to see what the fuss is all about
(as if Mark doesn't make a compelling case as it is!). I am using 177.80
drivers from nvidia's site. I saw a post on reddit a few days back linking
to the VDPAU section of download.nvidia.com but I did not see any source or
binary packages, just oodles of technical jargon that had me baffled lol.

Thanks
Bob

memmott at gmail

Nov 20, 2008, 10:50 AM

Post #5 of 77 (8490 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Bobby Gill <bobbygill [at] rogers> wrote:

>
> I don't wish to take this thread OT but is this VDPAU included in newer
> drivers? I have an 8800GT and would love to see what the fuss is all about
> (as if Mark doesn't make a compelling case as it is!). I am using 177.80
> drivers from nvidia's site. I saw a post on reddit a few days back linking
> to the VDPAU section of download.nvidia.com but I did not see any source
> or binary packages, just oodles of technical jargon that had me baffled lol.
>
>
> Thanks
> Bob
>
>
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=vdpau (Sorry, I couldn't resist using
this :-) ) - The first link states that the earliest driver version
supporting VDPAU is180.06

bobbygill at rogers

Nov 20, 2008, 10:58 AM

Post #6 of 77 (8500 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

>
> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=vdpau (Sorry, I couldn't resist using
> this :-) ) - The first link states that the earliest driver version
> supporting VDPAU is180.06
>

Haha, well done, I shoulda known better! ;) Thanks, I am reading up on it
now.. let the thread continue as it should..

Bobby

newbury at mandamus

Nov 20, 2008, 11:00 AM

Post #7 of 77 (8512 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

Mark Kendall wrote:
> 2008/11/20 Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox>:
>> Am I mistaken? What am I missing, if anything?
>
> OK - so I've been spending far too much time playing with VDPAU today
> to resist responding :)
>
> As I type I've got mythtv playing live tv using vdpau for playback.
> Double rate temporal deinterlacer, standard def MPEG2 source, (mostly)
> working osd, core2due 2.4gz, 8800GT and 1GB ram. Current utilisation
> hovers at around 1-2%.
>
> Switch to the 1080i/h264 channel (think high bitrate) - 1-2%.
>
> Switch to an old BBC HD h264 recording (again 1080i/high bitrate) - load 1-2%.
>
> No tearing, vertical sync seems to work 'out of the box' and
> deinterlacing quality is reasonable (though the implementation is
> simple and some further work could improve it).
>
> The main downside at the moment is picture quality (and the same
> issues apply to mplayer - so appear to be related to the state of the
> api/driver):-
>
> - all my h264 streams break up intermittently. I think nvidia have
> acknowledged that higher profile streams still have issues. Otherwise
> quality is very good.
> - all my mpeg2 streams and recordings exhibit some form of vertical
> 'blockiness'. It varies by source and I even see it on the nvidia
> 'reference' clips.
>
> All told, a pretty impressive start from nvidia - but it needs work.
>
> Regards
>
> Mark

OK, so now you have done the teasing.... WORK FASTER!

PLEASE. Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?

Geoff

Please let me know if anything I say offends you.
I may wish to offend you again in the future.

Tux says: "Be regular. Eat cron flakes."
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greg at phaze

Nov 20, 2008, 11:11 AM

Post #8 of 77 (8502 views)
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Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

> PLEASE. Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
> card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?

Some are even fanless :)

I have an 8400 and 8500 (both work and are tested with the
VDPAU mplayer patches) and both are fanless :)

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newbury at mandamus

Nov 20, 2008, 11:29 AM

Post #9 of 77 (8510 views)
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Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

Greg Estabrooks wrote:
>> PLEASE. Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
>> card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?
>
>
> Some are even fanless :)
>
> I have an 8400 and 8500 (both work and are tested with the
> VDPAU mplayer patches) and both are fanless :)
>

Thanks Greg.

Last time I went looking it appeared that the 7300 series was the last
fanless unit level.

Geoff

--
Please let me know if anything I say offends you.
I may wish to offend you again in the future.

Tux says: "Be regular. Eat cron flakes."
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nico at youplala

Nov 20, 2008, 11:31 AM

Post #10 of 77 (8486 views)
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Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 14:00 -0500, R. G. Newbury wrote:
> Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
> card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?

UK - http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?prodID=1486704

US - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121240

cheap and fan-less

Nico

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mark at boyum

Nov 20, 2008, 11:59 AM

Post #11 of 77 (8517 views)
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Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Nicolas Will <nico [at] youplala> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 14:00 -0500, R. G. Newbury wrote:
>> Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
>> card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?
>
> UK - http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?prodID=1486704
>
> US - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121240
>
> cheap and fan-less
>
> Nico
>

Has anyone been able to test on a P4 based system with a good old
fashion PCI card? My quick search of Newegg didn't find any AGP 8xxx
or newer cards, but I did find PCI cards.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000380048%201305520548%201069609642%20106791921&name=GeForce%208%20series

Here's hoping that my MythTV system built from old parts may be able to do HD.
-Mark
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davilla at 4pi

Nov 20, 2008, 12:21 PM

Post #12 of 77 (8481 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

>Has anyone been able to test on a P4 based system with a good old
>fashion PCI card? My quick search of Newegg didn't find any AGP 8xxx
>or newer cards, but I did find PCI cards.
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000380048%201305520548%201069609642%20106791921&name=GeForce%208%20series
>
>Here's hoping that my MythTV system built from old parts may be able to do HD.
>-Mark

ooohhh, been looking for a PCI 8400 to test VDPAU on the Intel dual
core atom 330 ITX motherboard. Thanks. If this works, $80 for the
atom 330 mb, $60 for the video card, +case and ps == real cheap 1080p
capable media center.

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mitchell.gore at gmail

Nov 20, 2008, 12:49 PM

Post #13 of 77 (8486 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Scott D. Davilla <davilla [at] 4pi> wrote:

> >Has anyone been able to test on a P4 based system with a good old
> >fashion PCI card? My quick search of Newegg didn't find any AGP 8xxx
> >or newer cards, but I did find PCI cards.
> >
> >
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000380048%201305520548%201069609642%20106791921&name=GeForce%208%20series
> >
> >Here's hoping that my MythTV system built from old parts may be able to do
> HD.
> >-Mark
>

Wow nice find, i was thinking i would still have to build a new frontend to
take advantage of this cause its only AGP and there are not supported video
cards that are AGP. I didn't even think about PCI.

Maybe my 2.2ghz p4 can actually be used instead of just tossed to the
dumpster!

Mitchell

MythTV_01 at appropriate-tech

Nov 20, 2008, 1:05 PM

Post #14 of 77 (8479 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

At 07:31 PM 11/20/08 +0000, Nicolas Will wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 14:00 -0500, R. G. Newbury wrote:
> > Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
> > card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?
>
> UK - http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?prodID=1486704
>
> US - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121240
>
> cheap and fan-less
>

OK, now let's make the challenge a little stiffer... Any for AGP?

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jedi at mishnet

Nov 20, 2008, 1:25 PM

Post #15 of 77 (8483 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 02:00:41PM -0500, R. G. Newbury wrote:
> Mark Kendall wrote:
> > 2008/11/20 Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox>:
[deletia]
> > - all my mpeg2 streams and recordings exhibit some form of vertical
> > 'blockiness'. It varies by source and I even see it on the nvidia
> > 'reference' clips.
> >
> > All told, a pretty impressive start from nvidia - but it needs work.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Mark
>
> OK, so now you have done the teasing.... WORK FASTER!
>
> PLEASE. Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
> card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?

...just get one without a fan and don't worry about it.
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jedi at mishnet

Nov 20, 2008, 1:34 PM

Post #16 of 77 (8481 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 04:05:42PM -0500, VCRAddict wrote:
> At 07:31 PM 11/20/08 +0000, Nicolas Will wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 14:00 -0500, R. G. Newbury wrote:
> > > Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
> > > card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?
> >
> > UK - http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?prodID=1486704
> >
> > US - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121240
> >
> > cheap and fan-less
> >
>
> OK, now let's make the challenge a little stiffer... Any for AGP?

Howabout just go for a motherboard with the 8x00 onboard and do
a mobo swap?
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mark at boyum

Nov 20, 2008, 1:35 PM

Post #17 of 77 (8470 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

>
> OK, now let's make the challenge a little stiffer... Any for AGP?
>

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070613080034AAaXwnH
Not that this is an authoritative answer, but seems to be the same
answer repeated on different forums.

So it looks like your choices are PCI or PCIe.
-Mark
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natecars at natecarlson

Nov 20, 2008, 1:52 PM

Post #18 of 77 (8477 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008, R. G. Newbury wrote:
> OK, so now you have done the teasing.... WORK FASTER!
>
> PLEASE. Now I gotta go look for a cheap 8300 or 8500 serires nvidia
> card?. Are the fans on those things controllable? Quiet?

This is way too cool. Just happens that both of my recently-upgraded
frontends ended up with 8xxx's in 'em - one an 8400, one an 8500.

One is fanless IIRC, the other I don't hear at all, as it's in a case down
in the basement with a long HDMI cable running to it for audio and video.
;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars [at] natecarlson | http://www.natecarlson.com |
| depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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nico at youplala

Nov 20, 2008, 2:04 PM

Post #19 of 77 (8488 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 15:21 -0500, Scott D. Davilla wrote:
> ooohhh, been looking for a PCI 8400 to test VDPAU on the Intel dual
> core atom 330 ITX motherboard. Thanks. If this works, $80 for the
> atom 330 mb, $60 for the video card, +case and ps == real cheap 1080p
> capable media center.

Tempting...

Very tempting...

Extremely tempting...

NVIDIA, hop hop hop! Get the code done! The MythTV coders are right on
your heels! The users are credit card happy!

:o)

Nico

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MythTV_01 at appropriate-tech

Nov 20, 2008, 2:08 PM

Post #20 of 77 (8485 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

At 03:34 PM 11/20/08 -0600, jedi wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 04:05:42PM -0500, VCRAddict wrote:
>
[snip]
> >
> > OK, now let's make the challenge a little stiffer... Any for AGP?
>
> Howabout just go for a motherboard with the 8x00 onboard and do
> a mobo swap?

Yahbut... I already have several "leftover" mobos with PCI/AGP slots
which, with the help of VDPAU, would presumably make reasonable entry-level
FE/BE systems (I'm thinking friends & relatives) for next-to-zero cost if
the right video card(s) could be found.

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MythTV_01 at appropriate-tech

Nov 20, 2008, 2:12 PM

Post #21 of 77 (8474 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

At 03:35 PM 11/20/08 -0600, Mark Boyum wrote:
> >
[snip]
>
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070613080034AAaXwnH
> Not that this is an authoritative answer, but seems to be the same
> answer repeated on different forums.
>
> So it looks like your choices are PCI or PCIe.

I suppose I could make PCI work; but the ones i've thus far found are
themselves a bit pricey for this application.

Oh, well... It was a nice idea, which I'll keep on the back burner for now.

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nick.rout at gmail

Nov 20, 2008, 2:20 PM

Post #22 of 77 (8466 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Matt Emmott <memmott [at] gmail> wrote:
>

>
> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=vdpau (Sorry, I couldn't resist using
> this :-) ) - The first link states that the earliest driver version
> supporting VDPAU is180.06
>

thats almost as good as

http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/search.pl?query=vdpau
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travis at tabbal

Nov 20, 2008, 2:22 PM

Post #23 of 77 (8477 views)
Permalink

Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:08 PM, VCRAddict
<MythTV_01 [at] appropriate-tech>wrote:

>
> Yahbut... I already have several "leftover" mobos with PCI/AGP slots
> which, with the help of VDPAU, would presumably make reasonable entry-level
> FE/BE systems (I'm thinking friends & relatives) for next-to-zero cost if
> the right video card(s) could be found.
>

PCI should be able to handle the bandwidth requirements for this sort of
thing. Someone posted a PCI card earlier with the proper GPU on it.

bill at bbqninja

Nov 20, 2008, 2:27 PM

Post #24 of 77 (8475 views)
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Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox> wrote:

> I watch AVSForum's HD-PVR forum for Windows users. Intermixed with the
> numerous messages detailing forum members' ever more-convoluted ways
> of recording and watching their TV shows--Rube Goldberg-like setups
> that would make any MythTV user alternately burst out in laughter and
> shake his head in pity---are many reports of how horsepower-dependent
> HD-PVR recordings are, even for Core 2 Duo owners using CoreAVC. In
> other words, despite their having PureVision already, things don't
> seem to be any better performancewise on that side on the pond.
>

CoreAVC is software only decoding right now. They have "coming eventually"
for GPU assisted, but if you're using CoreAVC you are NOT using PureVideo,
and are simply doing software decoding.

There is no comparison to be had.

memmott at gmail

Nov 20, 2008, 2:27 PM

Post #25 of 77 (8484 views)
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Re: Just how great can VDPAU be? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Travis Tabbal <travis [at] tabbal> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:08 PM, VCRAddict <MythTV_01 [at] appropriate-tech
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Yahbut... I already have several "leftover" mobos with PCI/AGP slots
>> which, with the help of VDPAU, would presumably make reasonable
>> entry-level
>> FE/BE systems (I'm thinking friends & relatives) for next-to-zero cost if
>> the right video card(s) could be found.
>>
>
>
> PCI should be able to handle the bandwidth requirements for this sort of
> thing. Someone posted a PCI card earlier with the proper GPU on it.
>
>
You just called out VCRAddict? Are you insane?

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