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MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice

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james at ultratans

Sep 2, 2008, 5:31 AM

Post #1 of 10 (1186 views)
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MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice

After having Myth running for the better part of two years on one TV I
have purchased a second Myth box for the other TV in the house. I am
debating making it a secondary BE/FE or just using it as a FE. My
current BE/FE machine can only hold two drives (2x 500GB SATA). One
drive is for recordings and one drive is OS and other media files (DVD
rips, flac audio, etc).

The new system came with a 500GB SATA drive. Plenty of room for OS
install, but how do I best utilize the space? I don't watch much TV so I
don't need it for TV recording space. I would like to use the space for
storing DVD rips and flac audio. So far I have not found the right
documentation to tell me how/if space local to a secondary backend can
be used within Myth. In the documentation it mentions setting the
storage directories per BE, but I think that only applies to TV
recording space. I tried to run the video manager on the slave BE and it
wanted to remove the video files stored on the master BE.

Ideally I would prefer to keep all recording duties on the master BE so
that the slave BE can be powered off except as needed for watching
TV/movies. Is there a way to have more media files available to a slave
BE without causing problems for the master BE?

BTW these are both Mythbuntu 8.04.1 systems if it matters.

Thanks,
James

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allen.p.edwards at gmail

Sep 2, 2008, 7:48 AM

Post #2 of 10 (1141 views)
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Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 5:31 AM, James Crow <james [at] ultratans> wrote:

> After having Myth running for the better part of two years on one TV I
> have purchased a second Myth box for the other TV in the house. I am
> debating making it a secondary BE/FE or just using it as a FE. My
> current BE/FE machine can only hold two drives (2x 500GB SATA). One
> drive is for recordings and one drive is OS and other media files (DVD
> rips, flac audio, etc).
>
> The new system came with a 500GB SATA drive. Plenty of room for OS
> install, but how do I best utilize the space? I don't watch much TV so I
> don't need it for TV recording space. I would like to use the space for
> storing DVD rips and flac audio. So far I have not found the right
> documentation to tell me how/if space local to a secondary backend can
> be used within Myth. In the documentation it mentions setting the
> storage directories per BE, but I think that only applies to TV
> recording space. I tried to run the video manager on the slave BE and it
> wanted to remove the video files stored on the master BE.
>
> Ideally I would prefer to keep all recording duties on the master BE so
> that the slave BE can be powered off except as needed for watching
> TV/movies. Is there a way to have more media files available to a slave
> BE without causing problems for the master BE?
>
> BTW these are both Mythbuntu 8.04.1 systems if it matters.
>
> Thanks,
> James
>
> ____

I have a frontend only machine and, while it has a button to import DVD, it
won't do it. It is missing the transcode engine, which is part of the
backend. So rule that option out. I assume you would also need a database
to log the rips as well. I have not tried it, but a frontend-secondary
backend souds like something to try.

Allen

myth at dermanouelian

Sep 2, 2008, 8:04 AM

Post #3 of 10 (1127 views)
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Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On Sep 2, 2008, at 7:48 AM, Allen Edwards wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 5:31 AM, James Crow <james [at] ultratans>
> wrote:
> After having Myth running for the better part of two years on one TV I
> have purchased a second Myth box for the other TV in the house. I am
> debating making it a secondary BE/FE or just using it as a FE. My
> current BE/FE machine can only hold two drives (2x 500GB SATA). One
> drive is for recordings and one drive is OS and other media files (DVD
> rips, flac audio, etc).
>
> The new system came with a 500GB SATA drive. Plenty of room for OS
> install, but how do I best utilize the space? I don't watch much TV
> so I
> don't need it for TV recording space. I would like to use the space
> for
> storing DVD rips and flac audio. So far I have not found the right
> documentation to tell me how/if space local to a secondary backend can
> be used within Myth. In the documentation it mentions setting the
> storage directories per BE, but I think that only applies to TV
> recording space. I tried to run the video manager on the slave BE
> and it
> wanted to remove the video files stored on the master BE.
>
> Ideally I would prefer to keep all recording duties on the master BE
> so
> that the slave BE can be powered off except as needed for watching
> TV/movies. Is there a way to have more media files available to a
> slave
> BE without causing problems for the master BE?
>
> BTW these are both Mythbuntu 8.04.1 systems if it matters.
>
> Thanks,
> James
>
> ____
>
> I have a frontend only machine and, while it has a button to import
> DVD, it won't do it. It is missing the transcode engine, which is
> part of the backend. So rule that option out. I assume you would
> also need a database to log the rips as well. I have not tried it,
> but a frontend-secondary backend souds like something to try.

Running a slave backend without any tuners is not a supported
configuration. It might work, it might set your cat on fire.
If you want to use your new machine for storage, NFS export paths from
that machine, mount them on your master backend and use the paths as
if they were local. That is a supported configuration.

-Brad

james at ultratans

Sep 2, 2008, 8:14 AM

Post #4 of 10 (1132 views)
Permalink

Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 07:48 -0700, Allen Edwards wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 5:31 AM, James Crow <james [at] ultratans>
> wrote:
> After having Myth running for the better part of two years on
> one TV I
> have purchased a second Myth box for the other TV in the
> house. I am
> debating making it a secondary BE/FE or just using it as a FE.
> My
> current BE/FE machine can only hold two drives (2x 500GB
> SATA). One
> drive is for recordings and one drive is OS and other media
> files (DVD
> rips, flac audio, etc).
>
> The new system came with a 500GB SATA drive. Plenty of room
> for OS
> install, but how do I best utilize the space? I don't watch
> much TV so I
> don't need it for TV recording space. I would like to use the
> space for
> storing DVD rips and flac audio. So far I have not found the
> right
> documentation to tell me how/if space local to a secondary
> backend can
> be used within Myth. In the documentation it mentions setting
> the
> storage directories per BE, but I think that only applies to
> TV
> recording space. I tried to run the video manager on the slave
> BE and it
> wanted to remove the video files stored on the master BE.
>
> Ideally I would prefer to keep all recording duties on the
> master BE so
> that the slave BE can be powered off except as needed for
> watching
> TV/movies. Is there a way to have more media files available
> to a slave
> BE without causing problems for the master BE?
>
> BTW these are both Mythbuntu 8.04.1 systems if it matters.
>
> Thanks,
> James
>
> ____
>
> I have a frontend only machine and, while it has a button to import
> DVD, it won't do it. It is missing the transcode engine, which is
> part of the backend. So rule that option out. I assume you would
> also need a database to log the rips as well. I have not tried it,
> but a frontend-secondary backend souds like something to try.
>
> Allen
>
>
Thanks for the reply Allen, but I don't need to import/rip DVDs from the
Myth box. I use my main desktop and DVDFab with Wine (seems most newer
DVDs are "copy protected" and somewhat unreadable by Linux) to do the
rips.

Another way to pose the question is this:

What functionality, apart from recording TV, do I loose by making a
machine a FE only without a slave BE on it?

One more possibility is using nfs and keeping the flac audio on one
machine and the dvd rips on another. The only downside is that both
would need to be at certain times even though only TV was actually being
watched.

Perhaps it is time for a NAS server to store all my media and
concentrate my HD storage space.

Thanks,
James

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james at ultratans

Sep 2, 2008, 8:20 AM

Post #5 of 10 (1130 views)
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Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 08:04 -0700, Brad DerManouelian wrote:
> On Sep 2, 2008, at 7:48 AM, Allen Edwards wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 5:31 AM, James Crow <james [at] ultratans>
> > wrote:
> > After having Myth running for the better part of two years
> > on one TV I
> > have purchased a second Myth box for the other TV in the
> > house. I am
> > debating making it a secondary BE/FE or just using it as a
> > FE. My
> > current BE/FE machine can only hold two drives (2x 500GB
> > SATA). One
> > drive is for recordings and one drive is OS and other media
> > files (DVD
> > rips, flac audio, etc).
> >
> > The new system came with a 500GB SATA drive. Plenty of room
> > for OS
> > install, but how do I best utilize the space? I don't watch
> > much TV so I
> > don't need it for TV recording space. I would like to use
> > the space for
> > storing DVD rips and flac audio. So far I have not found the
> > right
> > documentation to tell me how/if space local to a secondary
> > backend can
> > be used within Myth. In the documentation it mentions
> > setting the
> > storage directories per BE, but I think that only applies to
> > TV
> > recording space. I tried to run the video manager on the
> > slave BE and it
> > wanted to remove the video files stored on the master BE.
> >
> > Ideally I would prefer to keep all recording duties on the
> > master BE so
> > that the slave BE can be powered off except as needed for
> > watching
> > TV/movies. Is there a way to have more media files available
> > to a slave
> > BE without causing problems for the master BE?
> >
> > BTW these are both Mythbuntu 8.04.1 systems if it matters.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > James
> >
> > ____
> >
> > I have a frontend only machine and, while it has a button to import
> > DVD, it won't do it. It is missing the transcode engine, which is
> > part of the backend. So rule that option out. I assume you would
> > also need a database to log the rips as well. I have not tried it,
> > but a frontend-secondary backend souds like something to try.
> >
>
> Running a slave backend without any tuners is not a supported
> configuration. It might work, it might set your cat on fire.
> If you want to use your new machine for storage, NFS export paths from
> that machine, mount them on your master backend and use the paths as
> if they were local. That is a supported configuration.
>
>
> -Brad
>
Thanks Brad. I seem to remember a discussion on this list about running
a master BE without a tuner. AFAIR the concensus was that a master BE
without a tuner is unsupported, but I do not recall any mention of a
slave without a tuner. Maybe that should be added to the docs. Something
like "If you plan/want/dream of having a slave BE it must have at least
one tuner in it."

It seems that NFS is my only option.

Thanks,
James

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http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 2, 2008, 8:30 AM

Post #6 of 10 (1134 views)
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Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On 09/02/2008 10:48 AM, Allen Edwards wrote:
> I have a frontend only machine and, while it has a button to import DVD, it
> won't do it. It is missing the transcode engine, which is part of the
> backend.

Another reason why Myth only supports installing MythTV as a whole.
You'll notice there are no "mythtv-frontend" and "mythtv-backend" source
packages--it's all or nothing, and, really, should be in all the
packages out there. And, if you look at the configure script you'll
notice things like:

# Don't print disable frontend/backend options, these
# cause breakage and people use them inappropriately. -- dtk

and

# disabled due to abuse in <names removed to protect the guilty>
--disable-frontend)
;;
# disabled due to abuse in <names removed to protect the guilty>
--disable-backend)

After all, to install /all/ of MythTV compared to just the frontend or
just the backend components takes much less than 100MB extra space.
And, 100MB is tiny on any HDD that's reasonably sized to allow
installation of a modern *nix OS--IMHO, reasonably sized would mean
13.6GB or greater (how long has it been since you could even buy a HDD
that size), though, even on an 8GB HDD, 100MB is only 1.25% of the total
space.

However, once you install Myth properly, there is no requirement that
you run all the programs, so on a frontend-only machine, you simply
don't run mythbackend. On a backend-only machine, you simply don't run
mythfrontend. On some machines, you may choose to not run mythfrontend
or mythbackend and run only mythjobqueue.

Mike, who doesn't understand people's obsession to "install only the
minimum required software" (after all, *nix is /not/ Windows, so using
Windows optimization techniques is really misplaced)
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myth at dermanouelian

Sep 2, 2008, 8:32 AM

Post #7 of 10 (1132 views)
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Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On Sep 2, 2008, at 8:20 AM, James Crow wrote:

> On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 08:04 -0700, Brad DerManouelian wrote:
>> Running a slave backend without any tuners is not a supported
>> configuration. It might work, it might set your cat on fire.
>> If you want to use your new machine for storage, NFS export paths
>> from
>> that machine, mount them on your master backend and use the paths as
>> if they were local. That is a supported configuration.
>>
>>
>> -Brad
>>
> Thanks Brad. I seem to remember a discussion on this list about
> running
> a master BE without a tuner. AFAIR the concensus was that a master BE
> without a tuner is unsupported, but I do not recall any mention of a
> slave without a tuner. Maybe that should be added to the docs.
> Something
> like "If you plan/want/dream of having a slave BE it must have at
> least
> one tuner in it."
>
> It seems that NFS is my only option.

I don't think it's limited to master backend. Every reference I could
find just says "backend".
That aside, if you don't have a tuner, there is no reason to run a
backend. If you want to rip DVD's, run mtd. If you want to flag
commercials or transcode, run mythjobqueue. NFS gets you through any
file access-related issues.

-Brad

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 2, 2008, 8:34 AM

Post #8 of 10 (1122 views)
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Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On 09/02/2008 11:20 AM, James Crow wrote:
> Thanks Brad. I seem to remember a discussion on this list about running
> a master BE without a tuner. AFAIR the concensus was that a master BE
> without a tuner is unsupported, but I do not recall any mention of a
> slave without a tuner. Maybe that should be added to the docs. Something
> like "If you plan/want/dream of having a slave BE it must have at least
> one tuner in it."

A slave backend without a capture card is simply a mythjobqueue
server--in other words all parts of the slave backend except that which
runs jobs are disabled, so running mythbackend is a waste. So, rather
than run mythbackend, run mythjobqueue.

I maintain a myth system with a dedicated backend and a dedicated
frontend. However, the frontend is sufficiently powerful to play back
recordings with a lot of spare CPU time. Therefore, the frontend system
runs mythfrontend and mythjobqueue.

Oh, and for those reading my other message in this thread, while
installing only the minimum required software doesn't necessarily
improve performance on a *nix system, /running/ only the required
software does. :)

Mike

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jedi at mishnet

Sep 2, 2008, 8:45 AM

Post #9 of 10 (1135 views)
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Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 11:34:00AM -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 09/02/2008 11:20 AM, James Crow wrote:
> > Thanks Brad. I seem to remember a discussion on this list about running
> > a master BE without a tuner. AFAIR the concensus was that a master BE
> > without a tuner is unsupported, but I do not recall any mention of a
> > slave without a tuner. Maybe that should be added to the docs. Something
> > like "If you plan/want/dream of having a slave BE it must have at least
> > one tuner in it."
>
> A slave backend without a capture card is simply a mythjobqueue
> server--in other words all parts of the slave backend except that which
> runs jobs are disabled, so running mythbackend is a waste. So, rather
> than run mythbackend, run mythjobqueue.
>
> I maintain a myth system with a dedicated backend and a dedicated
> frontend. However, the frontend is sufficiently powerful to play back
> recordings with a lot of spare CPU time. Therefore, the frontend system
> runs mythfrontend and mythjobqueue.
>
> Oh, and for those reading my other message in this thread, while
> installing only the minimum required software doesn't necessarily
> improve performance on a *nix system, /running/ only the required
> software does. :)

So... your MPEG4 transcodes run twice as fast just because you
are running mythjobqueue rather than mythbackend? '-)
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 2, 2008, 8:54 AM

Post #10 of 10 (1134 views)
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Re: MythTV Secondary FE/BE Setup Advice [In reply to]

On 09/02/2008 11:45 AM, jedi wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 11:34:00AM -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>
>> A slave backend without a capture card is simply a mythjobqueue
>> server--in other words all parts of the slave backend except that which
>> runs jobs are disabled, so running mythbackend is a waste. So, rather
>> than run mythbackend, run mythjobqueue.
>>
>> I maintain a myth system with a dedicated backend and a dedicated
>> frontend. However, the frontend is sufficiently powerful to play back
>> recordings with a lot of spare CPU time. Therefore, the frontend system
>> runs mythfrontend and mythjobqueue.
>>
>> Oh, and for those reading my other message in this thread, while
>> installing only the minimum required software doesn't necessarily
>> improve performance on a *nix system, /running/ only the required
>> software does. :)
>>
> So... your MPEG4 transcodes run twice as fast just because you
> are running mythjobqueue rather than mythbackend? '-)

# pmap -d 1642
1642: mythbackend -d -l /home/mythtv/log/mythtv.log
...
mapped: 305548K writeable/private: 256504K shared: 0K

# pmap -d 1690
1690: /usr/local/bin/mythjobqueue
...
mapped: 136128K writeable/private: 26816K shared: 0K

'nuff said. ;)

Mike
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