Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Users

DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

steve at nexusuk

Jul 28, 2008, 2:14 AM

Post #1 of 25 (1007 views)
Permalink

DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck

I've just started setting up a new backend from scratch and hit a problem
when scanning channels (DVB-S, Astra 2 28.2E / Eurobird 1 28.5E).

I told mythtv-setup to do a tuned scan to start of with, and once that
finished told it to scan all existing transports. The scan seemed to go
ok up until around the 20% mark, and then it got stuck, with mythtv-setup
using up all the CPU time. After trying this several times and getting
the same results I decided to scan each transport individually.

Each transport scanned without problems except for transport 2316
(11390330 KHz, vertical: http://en.kingofsat.net/tp.php?tp=1200), which
got stuck in a loop, repeatedly updating the same channels in the database
until I killed the process.

Has anyone else seen this problem? I've tried it on both 0.21-fixes and
trunk. I can live without this transport, but not being able to do a full
scan of all the transports is time consuming to say the least.

As a side note, the channel scanner in mythtv-setup displays the
frequencies in KHz but puts a "Hz" instead of "KHz" suffix on them and
doesn't display the polarisation.

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mrrooster at gmail

Jul 28, 2008, 5:02 AM

Post #2 of 25 (968 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

[Snip stuck DVB-S scanning]

Have you tried the 'scan' program from the DVBUtils package? I've never
really got scanning to work in myth itself, I use scan (with an apropriate
frequency list) to generate the channels list that I then import into myth.

This is DVB-C in the UK.

Ian

steve at nexusuk

Jul 28, 2008, 5:21 AM

Post #3 of 25 (968 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Ian Clark wrote:

> Have you tried the 'scan' program from the DVBUtils package?

Yep - works fine.

> I've never really
> got scanning to work in myth itself

I used to have no problems with it in 0.20.

> This is DVB-C in the UK.

Aren't most of the DVB-C channels encrypted?

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mrrooster at gmail

Jul 28, 2008, 5:43 AM

Post #4 of 25 (968 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/28 Steve Hill <steve[at]nexusuk.org>

> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Ian Clark wrote:
>
> > Have you tried the 'scan' program from the DVBUtils package?
>
> Yep - works fine.

Can you import the results of that into myth?

>
>
> > I've never really
> > got scanning to work in myth itself
>
> I used to have no problems with it in 0.20.

I only started playing at 0.21. :)

>
>
> > This is DVB-C in the UK.
>
> Aren't most of the DVB-C channels encrypted?
>

Yes. :(

But as NTL won't officially give me digital and I have no rooftop arial it's
the only way to get BBC3 and 4.

It's probably a breach of their T+Cs to use a DVB-C card at all, although I
do pay them a fair amouont of cash a month for a sub standard analog service
(which I nolonger use), so I don't feel too bad.

Ian

steve at nexusuk

Jul 28, 2008, 7:01 AM

Post #5 of 25 (965 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Ian Clark wrote:

Ok, very strange... I reinstalled the machine with Fedora 9 (I was using
an ancient Fedora Core 6 install) and it all works now...

I do wonder where on earth Myth pulls the crazy channel numbers from
though...

> But as NTL won't officially give me digital and I have no rooftop arial it's
> the only way to get BBC3 and 4.

I'm assuming you can't put up a dish?

> It's probably a breach of their T+Cs to use a DVB-C card at all, although I do
> pay them a fair amouont of cash a month for a sub standard analog service
> (which I nolonger use), so I don't feel too bad.

Oh, almost certainly... mind you, at my last property the arial was
rubbish and so I received the analogue terrestrial channels from the NTL
cable which was installed, even though I wasn't an NTL customer (they
can't argue that that's a breach of my contract since I didn't have a
contract :)

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mythtv at mikeholden

Jul 28, 2008, 7:04 AM

Post #6 of 25 (962 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

Steve Hill wrote:
> Oh, almost certainly... mind you, at my last property the arial was
> rubbish and so I received the analogue terrestrial channels from the NTL
> cable which was installed, even though I wasn't an NTL customer (they
> can't argue that that's a breach of my contract since I didn't have a
> contract :)

Digressing slightly though, but isn't that technically known as "theft",
rather than breaching T&C? :-)
--
Mike Holden

http://www.by-ang.com - the place to shop for all manner of hand crafted
items, including Jewellery, Greetings Cards and Gifts

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

steve at nexusuk

Jul 28, 2008, 7:49 AM

Post #7 of 25 (962 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Mike Holden wrote:

> Digressing slightly though, but isn't that technically known as "theft",
> rather than breaching T&C? :-)

Not a clue I'm afraid - they only provide the terrestrial channels
unscrambled on analogue anyway... and they damned well should've
disconnected the cable if they didn't want me using it. :)

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mrrooster at gmail

Jul 28, 2008, 7:54 AM

Post #8 of 25 (962 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/28 Steve Hill <steve[at]nexusuk.org>

> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Ian Clark wrote:
>
> Ok, very strange... I reinstalled the machine with Fedora 9 (I was using
> an ancient Fedora Core 6 install) and it all works now...
>

lol, sometimes I do love computers.... :)

>
> I do wonder where on earth Myth pulls the crazy channel numbers from
> though...
>

I think it starts at a random number and works up, I spent a long while
rejigging mine (so 1 is BBC1 etc etc.) but that did involve some crazy SQL
at some point.

>
> > But as NTL won't officially give me digital and I have no rooftop arial
> it's
> > the only way to get BBC3 and 4.
>
> I'm assuming you can't put up a dish?
>

I'm in a rented flat, I probably could, but I'm quite quite lazy. :)

>
> > It's probably a breach of their T+Cs to use a DVB-C card at all, although
> I do
> > pay them a fair amouont of cash a month for a sub standard analog service
> > (which I nolonger use), so I don't feel too bad.
>
> Oh, almost certainly... mind you, at my last property the arial was
> rubbish and so I received the analogue terrestrial channels from the NTL
> cable which was installed, even though I wasn't an NTL customer (they
> can't argue that that's a breach of my contract since I didn't have a
> contract :)
>

Yeah, I've done that before, I don't think there's a problem with it, NTL
quite deliberatly encode the FTA channels in this way to tempt people back,
although they will occasionally disconnect people to help reduce signal
loss. (I've had this happen despite being an NTL customer... grrrr!)

Problem is i'm in Leicester on one of the oldest cable segments (used to be
diamond cable round here.) and it's not really up to all this new fangled
digital stuff, so they tell me it's not availabe in my area. Now my landlady
(who lives in the flat above) has digital ntl, but I end up goind round in
circles when I ring them up and try to order it, so I just chanced it and
got a DVB-C card.

When I get my own place (which may actually happen sometime if house prices
keep falling.) I'll probably end up with DVB-T as most of the stuff I want
to watch is on there, although this freesat stuff looks interesting too.

Hey, you never know, by that time Sky might've woken up and actually allow
us to legally buy a CAM module for a DVB-S card. (I hold out little hope
here. :(((( )

Ian

mrrooster at gmail

Jul 28, 2008, 7:59 AM

Post #9 of 25 (962 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/28 Mike Holden <mythtv[at]mikeholden.org>

> Steve Hill wrote:
> > Oh, almost certainly... mind you, at my last property the arial was
> > rubbish and so I received the analogue terrestrial channels from the NTL
> > cable which was installed, even though I wasn't an NTL customer (they
> > can't argue that that's a breach of my contract since I didn't have a
> > contract :)
>
> Digressing slightly though, but isn't that technically known as "theft",

I'd actually quite like to know, but I suspect not. What are you actually
stealing? They only provide 1 to 5, which are also available over the air.
If it was illegal then they'd make more effort to disconnect once the
previous occupants had left. I beleive they do it to encourage new
customers.

(Or to put it another way, why would they put an F to arial adaptor on the
end when they took the STB away?)

However, I do live in a very heavy student area so they do sometimes go
round and disconnect all the people not using it to reduce signal drain.

Ian

knowledgejunkie at gmail

Jul 28, 2008, 8:10 AM

Post #10 of 25 (961 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On 28/07/2008, Ian Clark <mrrooster[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2008/7/28 Mike Holden <mythtv[at]mikeholden.org>
> >
> > Steve Hill wrote:
> > > Oh, almost certainly... mind you, at my last property the arial was
> > > rubbish and so I received the analogue terrestrial channels from the NTL
> > > cable which was installed, even though I wasn't an NTL customer (they
> > > can't argue that that's a breach of my contract since I didn't have a
> > > contract :)
> >
> > Digressing slightly though, but isn't that technically known as "theft",
>
> I'd actually quite like to know, but I suspect not. What are you actually
> stealing? They only provide 1 to 5, which are also available over the air.
> If it was illegal then they'd make more effort to disconnect once the
> previous occupants had left. I beleive they do it to encourage new
> customers.

The connection of unauthorised equipment to their private network is
/at the minimum/ a breach of their terms and conditions.

--
Nick Morrott

MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mrrooster at gmail

Jul 28, 2008, 8:44 AM

Post #11 of 25 (955 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/28 Nick Morrott <knowledgejunkie[at]gmail.com>

> On 28/07/2008, Ian Clark <mrrooster[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2008/7/28 Mike Holden <mythtv[at]mikeholden.org>
> > >
> > > Steve Hill wrote:
> > > > Oh, almost certainly... mind you, at my last property the arial was
> > > > rubbish and so I received the analogue terrestrial channels from the
> NTL
> > > > cable which was installed, even though I wasn't an NTL customer (they
> > > > can't argue that that's a breach of my contract since I didn't have a
> > > > contract :)
> > >
> > > Digressing slightly though, but isn't that technically known as
> "theft",
> >
> > I'd actually quite like to know, but I suspect not. What are you actually
> > stealing? They only provide 1 to 5, which are also available over the
> air.
> > If it was illegal then they'd make more effort to disconnect once the
> > previous occupants had left. I beleive they do it to encourage new
> > customers.
>
> The connection of unauthorised equipment to their private network is
> /at the minimum/ a breach of their terms and conditions.
>

But in all instances I've seen an adaptor has been added to convert the F
connect for the STB to a standard UK tv arial, this has been done when the
STB has been removed, so I doubt they'd be able to claim it's unauthorised,
if they capped it off, or left it with just the F connector then I can see
that could be argued, but in all the cable houses I've had when it's been
left disconnected it's been left designed to be plugged into the back of the
TV.

It's also not a breach of their T+Cs if you've not signed up to anything.

Does the telephony legislation cover this kind of network?

Annoyingly, Virgin don't seem to have anything useful on their website
realting to this, and like most big companies don't seem to offer and
obvious 'contact us' page.

Hmmmm

Ian

knowledgejunkie at gmail

Jul 28, 2008, 9:21 AM

Post #12 of 25 (954 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On 28/07/2008, Ian Clark <mrrooster[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2008/7/28 Nick Morrott <knowledgejunkie[at]gmail.com>
> >

> > The connection of unauthorised equipment to their private network is
> > /at the minimum/ a breach of their terms and conditions.
> >
>
> But in all instances I've seen an adaptor has been added to convert the F
> connect for the STB to a standard UK tv arial, this has been done when the
> STB has been removed, so I doubt they'd be able to claim it's unauthorised,
> if they capped it off, or left it with just the F connector then I can see
> that could be argued, but in all the cable houses I've had when it's been
> left disconnected it's been left designed to be plugged into the back of the
> TV.
>
> It's also not a breach of their T+Cs if you've not signed up to anything.
>
> Does the telephony legislation cover this kind of network?
>
> Annoyingly, Virgin don't seem to have anything useful on their website
> realting to this, and like most big companies don't seem to offer and
> obvious 'contact us' page.
>
> Hmmmm

i) IANAL, so take this with a pinch of salt.

ii) As I understand things, VirginMedia own the network, and by
extension also the cable that comes into your/your landlord's
property, and you are not allowed to connect unauthorised equipment to
their cable network, whether or not you are a current VM subscriber.

iii) 'Because it is there' and 'because someone else has done it' are
not adequate legal defences (yet).

iv) The RF connectors are likely there because prevous subscribers
could receive analogue TV through the incoming cable, in addition to
their VM feeds which required decoding.

v) Their legal page recommends calling 0845 840 7777 if you have questions.

--
Nick Morrott

MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

steve at nexusuk

Jul 29, 2008, 2:12 AM

Post #13 of 25 (910 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Ian Clark wrote:

> I think it starts at a random number and works up, I spent a long while
> rejigging mine (so 1 is BBC1 etc etc.) but that did involve some crazy SQL at
> some point.

Looks like it uses the service IDs (which appear to be crazy 16 bit
numbers :).

> Problem is i'm in Leicester on one of the oldest cable segments (used to be
> diamond cable round here.) and it's not really up to all this new fangled
> digital stuff, so they tell me it's not availabe in my area.

My parents are on an ancient Diamond Cable segment (Nottingham) and their
digital TV signal is pretty ropey - breaks up and freezes fairly
regularly. I keep telling them they should get Virgin to send someone to
fix the problem (probably just needs an attenuator or something on the
back of the box... come to think of it, I've got an attenuator kicking
around so I might try putting that in-line next time I visit them).

> When I get my own place (which may actually happen sometime if house prices
> keep falling.) I'll probably end up with DVB-T as most of the stuff I want to
> watch is on there, although this freesat stuff looks interesting too.

Unless you want a channel that is free to air on DVB-T but not on DVB-S
(e.g. Dave), I'd suggest going for DVB-S - more channels, some HD stuff
and the main 4 channels are free to air (Five is reportedly going to
switch to free to air before the end of the year and the reorganisation of
the satellite transponders that's going on at the moment indicates this
may well be happening quite soon).

> Hey, you never know, by that time Sky might've woken up and actually allow us
> to legally buy a CAM module for a DVB-S card. (I hold out little hope here.
> :(((( )

I very much doubt it. :)
I'm not entirely sure what the legality of third party CAMs and SoftCAMs
for decoding VideoGuard is - they all require a valid viewing card, so
they don't give you access to anything you don't already subscribe to, but
they are almost certainly against the Sky T&Cs and may well be considered
"circumvention of an effective copy protection mechanism" by the EU
copyright directive.

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

andy at tensixtyone

Jul 29, 2008, 2:24 AM

Post #14 of 25 (905 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/28 Ian Clark <mrrooster[at]gmail.com>:

> But in all instances I've seen an adaptor has been added to convert the F
> connect for the STB to a standard UK tv arial, this has been done when the
> STB has been removed, so I doubt they'd be able to claim it's unauthorised,
> if they capped it off, or left it with just the F connector then I can see
> that could be argued, but in all the cable houses I've had when it's been
> left disconnected it's been left designed to be plugged into the back of the
> TV.
>
> It's also not a breach of their T+Cs if you've not signed up to anything.
>
> Does the telephony legislation cover this kind of network?
>
> Annoyingly, Virgin don't seem to have anything useful on their website
> realting to this, and like most big companies don't seem to offer and
> obvious 'contact us' page.
>
> Hmmmm
>

First, I want to just say "not this again", it seems this discussion
regarding Virgin/NTL pops up every few months.

Virgin still offer analog services on some networks throughout the UK,
they are in the process of upgrading the remaning customers and
shutting it down. I think only one area will keep it's analog service
due its very ropey cabling.

Just because it's analog and it doesn't require any extra equipment
doesn't mean it's not "theft of services", some of the dvb multiplexes
on VM's network an't encrypted but it doesnt mean you can just hook up
a DVB card without a subscription. It's almost along the same lines of
the open Wifi argument, the signals are on my property and open so why
can't I use them legally? Again, theft of services.

Like Nick said, they own the cable into your house and all the related
kit, just because it's on your land doesn't give you automatic
ownership. You can still call VM and tell them to remove their cabling
and boxes and they'll have to by law, as essentially you give them
permission to store their equiment in your house. Check the VM T&Cs
for the details.

Again, IANAL.

--
Andrew Williams / Nik_Doof
w: http://tensixtyone.com/
e: andy[at]tensixtyone.com
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

steve at nexusuk

Jul 29, 2008, 4:03 AM

Post #15 of 25 (904 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Andrew Williams wrote:

> It's almost along the same lines of
> the open Wifi argument, the signals are on my property and open so why
> can't I use them legally? Again, theft of services.

Well no, using a free wireless hotspot is not "theft of services" (and
yes, people _do_ provide legitimate free wireless hotspots). The 802.11
protocol even provides a method of telling people whether you are
providing a free hotspot or are running a private network - the problem is
that some people set their router to advertise itself as a public network
and then complain when people use it as advertised.

If you're going to start saying that you need written permission to use
any services that are open to the public, I sure hope you got written
permission to access Google's web servers...

> as essentially you give them
> permission to store their equiment in your house. Check the VM T&Cs
> for the details.

I've not given them any explicit permission and their T&Cs do not apply
to those of us who have not signed a contract agreeing to the T&Cs.

All other service providers disconnect you when they no longer want to
provide services (telephone, ADSL, gas, electricity, water). If Virgin
were really that bothered about it they would disconnect the cable TV too.
As it is, they continue to provide the PBS channels in the clear and rely
on encryption to restrict their other channels to subscribers.

(IANAL, of course).

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

myth at dermanouelian

Jul 29, 2008, 4:12 AM

Post #16 of 25 (904 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Jul 29, 2008, at 4:03 AM, Steve Hill wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Andrew Williams wrote:
>
>> It's almost along the same lines of
>> the open Wifi argument, the signals are on my property and open so
>> why
>> can't I use them legally? Again, theft of services.
>
> Well no, using a free wireless hotspot is not "theft of services" (and
> yes, people _do_ provide legitimate free wireless hotspots). The
> 802.11
> protocol even provides a method of telling people whether you are
> providing a free hotspot or are running a private network - the
> problem is
> that some people set their router to advertise itself as a public
> network
> and then complain when people use it as advertised.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276720,00.html
This isn't the first time it's happened, either.

I couldn't find the other story, but I saw one about a guy who got
arrested for the same thing and the cafe owner said anyone is welcome
to use the wifi signal. You don't need to come in, buy anything, etc.
They still arrested him and charged him a hefty fine for it.

> (IANAL, of course).

Clearly.

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

steve at nexusuk

Jul 29, 2008, 4:21 AM

Post #17 of 25 (893 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Brad DerManouelian wrote:

> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276720,00.html
> This isn't the first time it's happened, either.

I'm aware of these incidents - there are similar miscarriages of justice
in all sorts of situations, not just when it comes to wireless networks,
probably because the court didn't understand how the technology works.

The fact of the matter is that there is _no way_ for someone to tell if
they are allowed to use a network or not, other than by the network
telling them so. So it is hard to see how any reasonable court could find
someone guilty for using a service in the way it is advertising itself to
be used (especially since many devices will automatically associate with
open networks without the user having much knowledge of this anyway).

> They still arrested him and charged him a hefty fine for it.

Yes, people get arrested and charged for all sorts of non-crimes all the
time - miscarriages of justice do happen. Just because some overzealous
police officer or court decided to overstep their authority doesn't mean
that people should not stop doing these legal things.

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

andy at tensixtyone

Jul 29, 2008, 4:25 AM

Post #18 of 25 (896 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/29 Steve Hill <steve[at]nexusuk.org>:
> Well no, using a free wireless hotspot is not "theft of services" (and
> yes, people _do_ provide legitimate free wireless hotspots).

Yes, correct, sorry for not clarifying what I meant. but in terms of
private wifi with open access, people have been charged (yes, even in
the UK) for using these services without permission, even if its
broadcasting the ssid or not.

> If you're going to start saying that you need written permission to use
> any services that are open to the public, I sure hope you got written
> permission to access Google's web servers...

Thats a little extreme, my point was just because you can access it
doesn't mean your allowed to. Google put their services out there for
public consumption and advertise the fact, much like free wifi.

> I've not given them any explicit permission and their T&Cs do not apply
> to those of us who have not signed a contract agreeing to the T&Cs.

Well, you've give them no permission, so you can ask for the services
to be removed. If the T&Cs dont apply to you then you have no right to
use their services.

> All other service providers disconnect you when they no longer want to
> provide services (telephone, ADSL, gas, electricity, water). If Virgin
> were really that bothered about it they would disconnect the cable TV too.

So if your telephone line wasn't disconnected when you stop paying for
it would you classify this as a free license to use it as well? Also
on a side note, it's illegal for utilities to disconnect water to a
residential property :)

--
Andrew Williams / Nik_Doof
w: http://tensixtyone.com/
e: andy[at]tensixtyone.com
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

steve at nexusuk

Jul 29, 2008, 4:46 AM

Post #19 of 25 (891 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Andrew Williams wrote:

>> If you're going to start saying that you need written permission to use
>> any services that are open to the public, I sure hope you got written
>> permission to access Google's web servers...
>
> Thats a little extreme, my point was just because you can access it
> doesn't mean your allowed to. Google put their services out there for
> public consumption and advertise the fact, much like free wifi.

So how do you know the difference between a public web server and a
private web server? The answer is: you can't - you have to assume
anything that doesn't ask for a password is public (much the same as for
wifi). I guess things are a little more clear with a cable connection
since you are physically plugging into a cable and you know who provides
the services on that cable, but whatever the legal position I'm sure that
if they cared they would either disconnect the line or encrypt the
channels. As it is, what you can receive over the cable (in the clear) is
less than what you can receive through an antenna so they probably don't
care.

> If the T&Cs dont apply to you then you have no right to
> use their services.

That's not especially clear cut - they are providing services to my home
even though they have not been contracted to do so. It isn't a lot
different from something like broadcast TV - I don't have a contract with
the broadcasters yet I am still allowed to use the services which they
broadcast in the clear (I am not allowed to use the services that are
encrypted, such as TopUpTV (terrestrial) or Sky (satellite)).

> So if your telephone line wasn't disconnected when you stop paying for
> it would you classify this as a free license to use it as well?

You are actually allowed to use a "deactivated" phone line to dial the
emergency services ("deactivated" meaning that you still get a dial tone
but they have turned off the ability to dial normal PSTN numbers - after
you've cancelled your subscription, BT lines usually stay in this state
until they want to reuse the equipment you are connected to in the
exchange).

> Also on a side note, it's illegal for utilities to disconnect water to a
> residential property :)

Ok fair point, but they do have a right to chase you for payment, so it
isn't quite the same as a service you don't subscribe to.

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mrrooster at gmail

Jul 31, 2008, 4:14 AM

Post #20 of 25 (822 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/28 Nick Morrott <knowledgejunkie[at]gmail.com>

> On 28/07/2008, Ian Clark <mrrooster[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2008/7/28 Nick Morrott <knowledgejunkie[at]gmail.com>
> > >
> [snip my mutterings]
>

(Sorry, been busy at work, so apologies if this is a little late in the day.
:) )

>
>
> i) IANAL, so take this with a pinch of salt.
>

It's the internet, I take /everything/ with a pince of salt. :)

>
> ii) As I understand things, VirginMedia own the network, and by
> extension also the cable that comes into your/your landlord's
> property, and you are not allowed to connect unauthorised equipment to
> their cable network, whether or not you are a current VM subscriber.
>

This is where I'm not sure, as I understand it there is an explicit act that
covers the public telephone system, which is why it's illegal to connect
unathorised equipment to a BT phoneline (stuff without that green sticker on
the bottom.) but does this cover any network of this nature?

Mind you I'd accept that this may have changed a bit. (eg, up until recently
it wasn't illegal to trespass in the UK, I'd imagine it was much the same
thing.)

> iii) 'Because it is there' and 'because someone else has done it' are
> not adequate legal defences (yet).
>

It would depend on the circumstances, if you end up infront of a jury they
can find you innocent for whatever reason they see fit. (In the UK at least,
I know not about other countries out there.)

>
> iv) The RF connectors are likely there because prevous subscribers
> could receive analogue TV through the incoming cable, in addition to
> their VM feeds which required decoding.
>

No, the RF connectors are added when the STB is removed, if a STB was
installed that was connected via an F connector, an additional lead was
occasionally used so you could get ntl stb feed /and/ the standard RF
signals, but in this case the adaptor wouldn't be required, an extra lead
was. (I've been a ntl/virgin analog cable customer for some 10 or so years
now, in several different properties.)

>
> v) Their legal page recommends calling 0845 840 7777 if you have questions.
>

That would cost me money and a lot of time, and I don't care that much. (As
I said, customer for 10 years now... really hate talking to their customer
support people!!)

If anyone else does though, can they postback here so we all know. :)

Ian

mrrooster at gmail

Jul 31, 2008, 4:25 AM

Post #21 of 25 (817 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/29 Andrew Williams <andy[at]tensixtyone.com>

> 2008/7/28 Ian Clark <mrrooster[at]gmail.com>:
>
> [snip me]
>
> First, I want to just say "not this again", it seems this discussion
> regarding Virgin/NTL pops up every few months.
>

Meh, that's the nature of discussion lists and the net in general I think.

>
> Virgin still offer analog services on some networks throughout the UK,
> they are in the process of upgrading the remaning customers and
> shutting it down. I think only one area will keep it's analog service
> due its very ropey cabling.
>

I think that's the section I'm on unfortunatly. :(((

>
> Just because it's analog and it doesn't require any extra equipment
> doesn't mean it's not "theft of services", some of the dvb multiplexes
> on VM's network an't encrypted but it doesnt mean you can just hook up
> a DVB card without a subscription.

Just to make this clear, I have a VM subscription.

> It's almost along the same lines of the open Wifi argument, the signals are
> on my property and open so why can't I use them legally? Again, theft of
> services.

Which, as you don't require a radio licence to use wifi is actually a fair
argument. The transmission medium by it's nature is unsecure (ie, you can
receive the RF) so if you're incapable of securing the data transmitted on
it then there should be no legal barrier to it's use. Unfortunatly recent
precedents in the UK have been set which mean this isn't the case.

Imagine you owned a field, with no gate, and had no signage indicating
access was forbidden, upto very recently I would be able to cross that field
with legal impunity. (well, I could be done for criminal damage should I
have caused any but not for tresspass.) I think unsecured wifi is quite like
this. If you're unable to adequatly secure it then that's not my problem.
(Ignorance is not a defence after all). Of course the second you add
encryption, even if the password was just 'password' this would be competely
different.

>
>
> Like Nick said, they own the cable into your house and all the related
> kit, just because it's on your land doesn't give you automatic
> ownership. You can still call VM and tell them to remove their cabling
> and boxes and they'll have to by law, as essentially you give them
> permission to store their equiment in your house.

If you've not signed an agreement with VM then how does that work.

> Check the VM T&Cs for the details.

The discussion here was about people using the VM cable to receive OTA RF
signals in cases where they didn't have a VM subscription and hence weren't
bound by those T and Cs, so wouldn't be liable for a breach of contract
since they'd not

Again, IANAL.
>

Indeed, neither am I. :)

I've just fired off an email to VM askiing them, so assuming I get a
response I'll post it here. :)

Ian

mrrooster at gmail

Jul 31, 2008, 4:30 AM

Post #22 of 25 (817 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/29 Brad DerManouelian <myth[at]dermanouelian.com>

> On Jul 29, 2008, at 4:03 AM, Steve Hill wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Andrew Williams wrote:
> >
> >> It's almost along the same lines of
> >> the open Wifi argument, the signals are on my property and open so
> >> why
> >> can't I use them legally? Again, theft of services.
> >
> > Well no, using a free wireless hotspot is not "theft of services" (and
> > yes, people _do_ provide legitimate free wireless hotspots). The
> > 802.11
> > protocol even provides a method of telling people whether you are
> > providing a free hotspot or are running a private network - the
> > problem is
> > that some people set their router to advertise itself as a public
> > network
> > and then complain when people use it as advertised.
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276720,00.html
> This isn't the first time it's happened, either.
>

That is an American story though, this discussion is about virgin media in
the UK, the laws of the US don't apply, it's a different country.

However, the UK police/judiciary are just as stupid....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/21/wi_fi_squatting_arrests/

Mind you, that doesn't mention if any charges were actually brought, merely
that he was arrested.

Ian

mythtv-users at spam

Jul 31, 2008, 8:20 AM

Post #23 of 25 (800 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 12:14:55PM +0100, Ian Clark wrote:
> This is where I'm not sure, as I understand it there is an explicit act that
> covers the public telephone system, which is why it's illegal to connect
> unathorised equipment to a BT phoneline (stuff without that green sticker on
> the bottom.) but does this cover any network of this nature?
I believe this was removed a while back (probably when BT went private). You can now plug
anything you like into the system, as long as you do so AFTER the master socket. The
cabling as far as the master socket (and including it, I believe) is still owned by BT, and
therefore under their control.

> Mind you I'd accept that this may have changed a bit. (eg, up until recently
> it wasn't illegal to trespass in the UK, I'd imagine it was much the same
> thing.)
Law is a bad place to imagine ;)

> > iv) The RF connectors are likely there because prevous subscribers
> > could receive analogue TV through the incoming cable, in addition to
> > their VM feeds which required decoding.
> No, the RF connectors are added when the STB is removed, if a STB was
> installed that was connected via an F connector, an additional lead was
> occasionally used so you could get ntl stb feed /and/ the standard RF
> signals, but in this case the adaptor wouldn't be required, an extra lead
> was. (I've been a ntl/virgin analog cable customer for some 10 or so years
> now, in several different properties.)
The cabling is put there by VM (or whatever it was called at the time) at the request of the
appropriate person. This includes them signing a contract to cover the usage of the
service/hardware. The fact that it's physically on your property will certainly grant you
some rights (e.g. you can probably demand that they remove & make good), but certainly
doesn't grant you any rights to use the service. There are provisions in the law for the
passing of certain responsabilities between owners - and there's also interesting things to
cover anything within the house that was not detailed on the paperwork when you bought it.
I think, in a silly way, you might even be able to sue the previous owner to get the cable
removed if you weren't told it was there when you agreed to buy it.

To put it another way, would you feel entitled to free electricity if a power cable ran
over/under your house? Same question for gas, if you've got a pipe under your property.

There are very weird provisions within the law for the utility companies to be able to
support their infrastructure. For example I think water companies can dig up any part of
your house they like to fix a leak in one of their pipes - and you've agreed to that if
you're on a mains water supply.

All of this is totally pointless (I don't think any of us are lawyers), a mess (since not
everyone in the discussion is covered by the same laws), and something to keep us interested
while the weather is far too hot.

And, in case it's not obvious, IANAL either.

Graham
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

steve at nexusuk

Jul 31, 2008, 9:32 AM

Post #24 of 25 (801 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008, Graham Wood wrote:

> I believe this was removed a while back (probably when BT went
> private). You can now plug anything you like into the system, as long
> as you do so AFTER the master socket.

As far as I know, equipment still has to be BABT approved (prior to
privatisation, most phones were hard-wired rather than plug-in things
anyway). I don't know how approval is enforced though - it might be
through your BT contract rather than by law. Certainly, back around the
1995 era, BABT approved modems were 2-3 times the price of unapproved
ones, so a lot of people just (illegally) used the unapproved hardware.

> there's also interesting things to cover anything within the house that
> was not detailed on the paperwork when you bought it. I think, in a
> silly way, you might even be able to sue the previous owner to get the
> cable removed if you weren't told it was there when you agreed to buy
> it.

Having just moved house a couple of weeks ago, I can tell you that all the
contracts state that you have a legal responsibility to take any contents
which has not been agreed to be left (of course, my new house had all
sorts of crap left in it anyway :). And you get a bloody huge tick-sheet
saying what you're leaving and what you're taking (and yes, the tick sheet
even includes exterior doors and windows (!)).

> For example I think water companies can dig up any part of your house
> they like to fix a leak in one of their pipes - and you've agreed to
> that if you're on a mains water supply.

I suspect that isn't a legally enshrined right - it'll be allowed by
contract (at least, the covenant for my house requires me to agree to such
things and I wouldn't expect them to do that if they had the right
anyway).

> something to keep us interested
> while the weather is far too hot.

:)

- Steve
xmpp:steve[at]nexusuk.org sip:steve[at]nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/

Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mrrooster at gmail

Aug 8, 2008, 7:46 AM

Post #25 of 25 (645 views)
Permalink

Re: DVB-S channel scanning gets stuck [In reply to]

2008/7/28 Ian Clark <mrrooster[at]gmail.com>

>
>
> 2008/7/28 Nick Morrott <knowledgejunkie[at]gmail.com>
>
>> [Snip me and Mike Holden for space]
>>
>> The connection of unauthorised equipment to their private network is
>> /at the minimum/ a breach of their terms and conditions.
>>
>
> But in all instances I've seen an adaptor has been added to convert the F
> connect for the STB to a standard UK tv arial, this has been done when the
> STB has been removed, so I doubt they'd be able to claim it's unauthorised,
> if they capped it off, or left it with just the F connector then I can see
> that could be argued, but in all the cable houses I've had when it's been
> left disconnected it's been left designed to be plugged into the back of the
> TV.
>

OK, I've actually had a letter from Virgin about this:

<---
Dear Mr Clark

I am writing to confirm we have recieved your enquiry concerning a third
party's free reception of the standard terrestrial channels.

I can advise that certain properties that did have a cable service were
configured to receive these basic channels free of charge.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for bringing this issue
to our attention.

Yours sincerely

Kenneth Dugdale
<---

make of that what you will. :)

Ian

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

Interested in having your list archived? Contact lists@gossamer-threads.com