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Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:')

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jra at baylink

Jul 21, 2008, 1:25 PM

Post #1 of 46 (916 views)
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Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:')

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:08:35PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> The thing is, Miro isn't TV. It's "podcasts" which again can be handled by
> MythNews with some modifications.

Miro may be a bad example for this, but I'll swing for the fences
anyway...

Let's suppose that I have a whole bunch of rules set up to catch and
record programs by actors whose work I admire.

Let's further suppose that some of these actors are political
activists... Rob Lowe, for example.

I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.

The ability to wedge such program data from non-traditional feeds is
slightly more important than the ability to use the internal player
instead of Mplayer to watch them... but that will become less true as
well as multi-user Myth gets closer to reality and the internal player
picks up just one more extra feature over external ones.

Does this clarify what people might be looking for and why they might
want it a bit better, without raising people's hackles?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra[at]baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Josef Stalin)
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jedi at mishnet

Jul 21, 2008, 1:37 PM

Post #2 of 46 (894 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 04:25:05PM -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:08:35PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> > The thing is, Miro isn't TV. It's "podcasts" which again can be handled by
> > MythNews with some modifications.
>
> Miro may be a bad example for this, but I'll swing for the fences
> anyway...
>
> Let's suppose that I have a whole bunch of rules set up to catch and
> record programs by actors whose work I admire.
>
> Let's further suppose that some of these actors are political
> activists... Rob Lowe, for example.
>
> I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
> watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
> Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
> some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.
>
> The ability to wedge such program data from non-traditional feeds is
> slightly more important than the ability to use the internal player
> instead of Mplayer to watch them... but that will become less true as
> well as multi-user Myth gets closer to reality and the internal player
> picks up just one more extra feature over external ones.
>
> Does this clarify what people might be looking for and why they might
> want it a bit better, without raising people's hackles?

...then this becomes Miro integration or YouTube integration or
Hulu integration or Unbox integration we're suddenly in the same
boat as AppleTV rather than Napster.

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knowledgejunkie at gmail

Jul 21, 2008, 1:47 PM

Post #3 of 46 (895 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

2008/7/21 Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com>:
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:08:35PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
>> The thing is, Miro isn't TV. It's "podcasts" which again can be handled by
>> MythNews with some modifications.
>
> Miro may be a bad example for this, but I'll swing for the fences
> anyway...
>
> Let's suppose that I have a whole bunch of rules set up to catch and
> record programs by actors whose work I admire.
>
> Let's further suppose that some of these actors are political
> activists... Rob Lowe, for example.
>
> I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
> watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
> Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
> some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.
>
> The ability to wedge such program data from non-traditional feeds is
> slightly more important than the ability to use the internal player
> instead of Mplayer to watch them... but that will become less true as
> well as multi-user Myth gets closer to reality and the internal player
> picks up just one more extra feature over external ones.
>
> Does this clarify what people might be looking for and why they might
> want it a bit better, without raising people's hackles?

You seem to be proposing some sort of mythical convergence device :)

Regardless of the source of, or the transmission protocol used by
content providers, being able to use the search/scheduler facilities
provided by MythTV core across a multitude of sources would just
increase the usefulness of the software for me [1]. Those are the
killer features of the software IMHO.

Sometime down the road I would also love to see a Grand Unified
Interface (a GUI if you will) where my media is available from, and
managed by, a single interface. Another reason to start more serious
attempts at understanding the code...

Nick

[1] others might like it too. It might be impossible to implement
well, or at all, though.

--
Nick Morrott

MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
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jra at baylink

Jul 21, 2008, 1:48 PM

Post #4 of 46 (895 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 03:37:41PM -0500, jedi wrote:
> > I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
> > watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
> > Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
> > some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.
> >
> > The ability to wedge such program data from non-traditional feeds is
> > slightly more important than the ability to use the internal player
> > instead of Mplayer to watch them... but that will become less true as
> > well as multi-user Myth gets closer to reality and the internal player
> > picks up just one more extra feature over external ones.
> >
> > Does this clarify what people might be looking for and why they might
> > want it a bit better, without raising people's hackles?
>
> ...then this becomes Miro integration or YouTube integration or
> Hulu integration or Unbox integration we're suddenly in the same
> boat as AppleTV rather than Napster.

I'm not sure precisely what your point is, there, jedi.

Could you vague that up a bit for us, please?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra[at]baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Josef Stalin)
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

jra at baylink

Jul 21, 2008, 1:51 PM

Post #5 of 46 (895 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 09:47:02PM +0100, Nick Morrott wrote:
> > I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
> > watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
> > Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
> > some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.
> >
> > The ability to wedge such program data from non-traditional feeds is
> > slightly more important than the ability to use the internal player
> > instead of Mplayer to watch them... but that will become less true as
> > well as multi-user Myth gets closer to reality and the internal player
> > picks up just one more extra feature over external ones.
>
> You seem to be proposing some sort of mythical convergence device :)

Me?

Naaah.

I just tech edit books about them. Wonder if anyone here ever read the
aPress book... :-)

> Regardless of the source of, or the transmission protocol used by
> content providers, being able to use the search/scheduler facilities
> provided by MythTV core across a multitude of sources would just
> increase the usefulness of the software for me [1]. Those are the
> killer features of the software IMHO.
>
> Sometime down the road I would also love to see a Grand Unified
> Interface (a GUI if you will) where my media is available from, and
> managed by, a single interface. Another reason to start more serious
> attempts at understanding the code...

It's a two part issue: you need something to pour the program details
into the database, and some way to "record" them. I gather the
refactoring on the latter point may be underway already, for other IPTV
projects, but I'm not sure how far the former has gotten (if at all)
because I haven't been following -dev.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra[at]baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Josef Stalin)
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

kkuphal at gmail

Jul 21, 2008, 2:29 PM

Post #6 of 46 (887 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:08:35PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> > The thing is, Miro isn't TV. It's "podcasts" which again can be
> handled by
> > MythNews with some modifications.
>
> Miro may be a bad example for this, but I'll swing for the fences
> anyway...
>
> Let's suppose that I have a whole bunch of rules set up to catch and
> record programs by actors whose work I admire.
>
> Let's further suppose that some of these actors are political
> activists... Rob Lowe, for example.
>
> I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
> watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
> Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
> some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.

Again, I think Miro is hampering the argument because Miro is a collection
of RSS feeds and not items broadcast at a specific time that need to be
"recorded". Now, what you are proposing, however, has value in that you are
seeking something that care parse a wide range of RSS feeds looking for
keywords such as "Rob Lowe" and then downloading the resulting content form
those feeds.

I would venture that you can do a close proximity of this with existing
tools as well. Sites like Yahoo Pipes offer services that can merge
multiple RSS feeds into a single feed that can also then be searched and
filtered. There are other services that present search results as RSS
feeds. Needless to say, once you settle on a tool that will scour the net
and present you a feed of results, the previous tools I mentioned (possibly
including MythNews) can consume that and get your content.

Until true "Internet broadcast" content which appears on a schedule and only
on a schedule shows up, I will continue to struggle to see any value in
direct integration with Myth short of dropping the resulting content into
Myth accessible folders for it to be viewed.

Kevin

nick.rout at gmail

Jul 21, 2008, 2:58 PM

Post #7 of 46 (887 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:08:35PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
>> > The thing is, Miro isn't TV. It's "podcasts" which again can be
>> > handled by
>> > MythNews with some modifications.
>>
>> Miro may be a bad example for this, but I'll swing for the fences
>> anyway...
>>
>> Let's suppose that I have a whole bunch of rules set up to catch and
>> record programs by actors whose work I admire.
>>
>> Let's further suppose that some of these actors are political
>> activists... Rob Lowe, for example.
>>
>> I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
>> watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
>> Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
>> some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.
>
>
> Again, I think Miro is hampering the argument because Miro is a collection
> of RSS feeds and not items broadcast at a specific time that need to be
> "recorded". Now, what you are proposing, however, has value in that you are
> seeking something that care parse a wide range of RSS feeds looking for
> keywords such as "Rob Lowe" and then downloading the resulting content form
> those feeds.
>
> I would venture that you can do a close proximity of this with existing
> tools as well. Sites like Yahoo Pipes offer services that can merge
> multiple RSS feeds into a single feed that can also then be searched and
> filtered. There are other services that present search results as RSS
> feeds. Needless to say, once you settle on a tool that will scour the net
> and present you a feed of results, the previous tools I mentioned (possibly
> including MythNews) can consume that and get your content.
>
> Until true "Internet broadcast" content which appears on a schedule and only
> on a schedule shows up, I will continue to struggle to see any value in
> direct integration with Myth short of dropping the resulting content into
> Myth accessible folders for it to be viewed.
>

Well except that:

1. myth already has great tools for scanning the database and finding
programmes you want to record, integrating searches across broadcast
TV and RSS feeds would be useful (why configure two search engines?);

2. Being able to find it all in the same part of mythtv, as opposed to
News|TV|Videos might be easier. Do you really care how the show got on
your computer?

3. Myth already has hooks for scheduling (do your downloading at 2.00
-6.00 am when there is less contention) and prioritisation (if Rob
Lowe is available in a a higher def stream, prefer it, if the source
is a reliable news gatherer, prefer it).

Yes having a basic RSS parser downloader dumping stuff in your videos
directory and inserting a bit of metadata is a good interim solution,
but the integration could be a whole lot more (mythically) converged
:-)
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jedi at mishnet

Jul 22, 2008, 6:22 AM

Post #8 of 46 (855 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 04:48:55PM -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 03:37:41PM -0500, jedi wrote:
> > > I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
> > > watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
> > > Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
> > > some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.
> > >
> > > The ability to wedge such program data from non-traditional feeds is
> > > slightly more important than the ability to use the internal player
> > > instead of Mplayer to watch them... but that will become less true as
> > > well as multi-user Myth gets closer to reality and the internal player
> > > picks up just one more extra feature over external ones.
> > >
> > > Does this clarify what people might be looking for and why they might
> > > want it a bit better, without raising people's hackles?
> >
> > ...then this becomes Miro integration or YouTube integration or
> > Hulu integration or Unbox integration we're suddenly in the same
> > boat as AppleTV rather than Napster.
>
> I'm not sure precisely what your point is, there, jedi.
>
> Could you vague that up a bit for us, please?

You have a really bizarre notion of what constitutes vague.
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jedi at mishnet

Jul 22, 2008, 6:32 AM

Post #9 of 46 (855 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 09:58:23AM +1200, Nick Rout wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:08:35PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> >> > The thing is, Miro isn't TV. It's "podcasts" which again can be
> >> > handled by
> >> > MythNews with some modifications.
> >>
> >> Miro may be a bad example for this, but I'll swing for the fences
> >> anyway...
> >>
> >> Let's suppose that I have a whole bunch of rules set up to catch and
> >> record programs by actors whose work I admire.
> >>
> >> Let's further suppose that some of these actors are political
> >> activists... Rob Lowe, for example.
> >>
> >> I'm sure you can understand why I would like, as a MythTV user and Miro
> >> watcher, to have my MythTV box be able *automatically* to catch any
> >> Miro program that might have, say, an appearance by Lowe on behalf of
> >> some (Democratic :-) candidate, and automatically record it.
> >
> >
> > Again, I think Miro is hampering the argument because Miro is a collection
> > of RSS feeds and not items broadcast at a specific time that need to be
> > "recorded". Now, what you are proposing, however, has value in that you are
> > seeking something that care parse a wide range of RSS feeds looking for
> > keywords such as "Rob Lowe" and then downloading the resulting content form
> > those feeds.
> >
> > I would venture that you can do a close proximity of this with existing
> > tools as well. Sites like Yahoo Pipes offer services that can merge
> > multiple RSS feeds into a single feed that can also then be searched and
> > filtered. There are other services that present search results as RSS
> > feeds. Needless to say, once you settle on a tool that will scour the net
> > and present you a feed of results, the previous tools I mentioned (possibly
> > including MythNews) can consume that and get your content.
> >
> > Until true "Internet broadcast" content which appears on a schedule and only
> > on a schedule shows up, I will continue to struggle to see any value in
> > direct integration with Myth short of dropping the resulting content into
> > Myth accessible folders for it to be viewed.
> >
>
> Well except that:
>
> 1. myth already has great tools for scanning the database and finding
> programmes you want to record, integrating searches across broadcast
> TV and RSS feeds would be useful (why configure two search engines?);
>
> 2. Being able to find it all in the same part of mythtv, as opposed to
> News|TV|Videos might be easier. Do you really care how the show got on
> your computer?
>
> 3. Myth already has hooks for scheduling (do your downloading at 2.00
> -6.00 am when there is less contention) and prioritisation (if Rob
> Lowe is available in a a higher def stream, prefer it, if the source
> is a reliable news gatherer, prefer it).

Then there is storage management.

Do you really want 20 instances of Rob Lowe doing anything?

But do you want to cycle through them or do you want to
stop recording them once you've gotten a certain number
of them so you don't "miss" something.

The ability to add "sources" and "matches" to the guide data
and the potential recordings could be quite useful.

Anti-recording rules would also be nice. The other half really
has something against Jim Carrey. A sort of rule that would have
the effect of purging him from the recordmatch table when ever he
pops up would probably be appreciated by a lot of people.

>
> Yes having a basic RSS parser downloader dumping stuff in your videos
> directory and inserting a bit of metadata is a good interim solution,
> but the integration could be a whole lot more (mythically) converged
> :-)
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
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kkuphal at gmail

Jul 22, 2008, 10:04 AM

Post #10 of 46 (847 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. myth already has great tools for scanning the database and finding
> programmes you want to record, integrating searches across broadcast
> TV and RSS feeds would be useful (why configure two search engines?);

Mostly because there is really no comprehensive RSS database to search like
with have for Schedules Direct. You still have to hunt down and find the
feeds and even then, these aren't really "recordings" as they are downloads
so I have a hard time fitting them into the scheduler like you do with guide
data. Certainly managing feeds is a thing that can be done well by Myth. I
just don't see it as part of the guide but that may be just my vision...

>
>
> 2. Being able to find it all in the same part of mythtv, as opposed to
> News|TV|Videos might be easier. Do you really care how the show got on
> your computer?

Agreed, it is trivial to either import downloaded content to Watch
Recordings or extend Watch Recordings to include items from feeds.

Kevin

jra at baylink

Jul 22, 2008, 10:25 AM

Post #11 of 46 (840 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 04:29:18PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> Until true "Internet broadcast" content which appears on a schedule
> and only on a schedule shows up, I will continue to struggle to see
> any value in direct integration with Myth short of dropping the
> resulting content into Myth accessible folders for it to be viewed.

New items appear in such feeds whenever they appear.

New programs appear in program guide data whenever they appear.

The only difference I can see is that if it's broadcast, you have to
*wait* until it actually airs to record it, and it might go away,
whereas with feeds, you can grab it the minute you're told it's there.

So the sorts of feeds we're talking about *do* have "content appear on
a schedule"... it's just that the delay between when you're told about
it and when you can get it is 0.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra[at]baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Josef Stalin)
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
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jra at baylink

Jul 22, 2008, 10:26 AM

Post #12 of 46 (838 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 10:28:36AM +1200, Nick Rout wrote:
> In fact in NZ the rss feed shows (that are put there for download by
> their creators) are more legal to keep long term than stuff recorded
> from traditional TV (that become infringing if they are kept for "any
> longer than is reasonably necessary for viewing or listening to the
> recording at a more convenient time")

Is that Betamax Case language?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra[at]baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Josef Stalin)
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
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dlinvill at networksdown

Jul 22, 2008, 11:20 AM

Post #13 of 46 (840 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. myth already has great tools for scanning the database and finding
>> programmes you want to record, integrating searches across broadcast
>> TV and RSS feeds would be useful (why configure two search engines?);
>
>
> Mostly because there is really no comprehensive RSS database to search like
> with have for Schedules Direct. You still have to hunt down and find the
> feeds and even then, these aren't really "recordings" as they are downloads
> so I have a hard time fitting them into the scheduler like you do with guide
> data. Certainly managing feeds is a thing that can be done well by Myth. I
> just don't see it as part of the guide but that may be just my vision...
>

But I don't search schedules direct for shows or channels. Think of each
RSS feed as a channel. I search the content of specific channel listings
that schedules direct has nicely packaged together. Similar to what an RSS
aggregator would do.

I would update each RSS channel just like I do a SD channel. When a new
show appears on any RSS channel my downloaded tuner would notice that it is
time to download a new show and depending on my specific RSS recording rule
either download or not. That way I can set shows to download based on
custom rules or only download X episodes and expire old copies.

Currently I can force the recordings into myth recordings post download but
I lose all of the scheduling greatness and without a record rule id the
Watch Programs groupings don't work.

Dumping into a folder in mythvideo is the worst option because I can't
delete watched shows from there. Plus the rss feed shows are more like
recorded shows than videos.

David

dlinvill at networksdown

Jul 22, 2008, 11:27 AM

Post #14 of 46 (840 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 04:29:18PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> > Until true "Internet broadcast" content which appears on a schedule
> > and only on a schedule shows up, I will continue to struggle to see
> > any value in direct integration with Myth short of dropping the
> > resulting content into Myth accessible folders for it to be viewed.
>
> New items appear in such feeds whenever they appear.
>
> New programs appear in program guide data whenever they appear.
>
> The only difference I can see is that if it's broadcast, you have to
> *wait* until it actually airs to record it, and it might go away,
> whereas with feeds, you can grab it the minute you're told it's there.
>
> So the sorts of feeds we're talking about *do* have "content appear on
> a schedule"... it's just that the delay between when you're told about
> it and when you can get it is 0.
>
>
> Exactly. Here is an example weekly hour long show that has been
"broadcasting" for several years:

http://revision3.com/diggnation/
RSS feed: http://revision3.com/diggnation/feed/quicktime-high-definition/

This show is so similar to a broadcast show that it feels wrong not to
integrate it nicely with the rest of my recordings.

I think it is a shame that this sort of explicitly legal use gets shouted
down in these discussions. I've seen links to 3 or 4 shows in this thread
alone that were put out by tv studios or others. I imagine this sort of
distribution will only become more common in the future.

David

myth at dermanouelian

Jul 22, 2008, 11:33 AM

Post #15 of 46 (840 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Jul 22, 2008, at 11:27 AM, David Linville wrote:

> Exactly. Here is an example weekly hour long show that has been
> "broadcasting" for several years:
>
> http://revision3.com/diggnation/
> RSS feed: http://revision3.com/diggnation/feed/quicktime-high-definition/
>
> This show is so similar to a broadcast show that it feels wrong not
> to integrate it nicely with the rest of my recordings.
>
> I think it is a shame that this sort of explicitly legal use gets
> shouted down in these discussions. I've seen links to 3 or 4 shows
> in this thread alone that were put out by tv studios or others. I
> imagine this sort of distribution will only become more common in
> the future.

It would be cool to subscribe to a ton of feeds and only download the
episodes with matching keywords and have them appear in Watch
Recordings. Much better than downloading a bunch of crap I don't want
to see or sifting through YouTube to find the one thing of interest
among millions of videos I don't care about. Let me know when it's done!

-Brad

kkuphal at gmail

Jul 22, 2008, 11:35 AM

Post #16 of 46 (841 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:20 PM, David Linville <dlinvill[at]networksdown.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. myth already has great tools for scanning the database and finding
>>> programmes you want to record, integrating searches across broadcast
>>> TV and RSS feeds would be useful (why configure two search engines?);
>>
>>
>> Mostly because there is really no comprehensive RSS database to search
>> like with have for Schedules Direct. You still have to hunt down and find
>> the feeds and even then, these aren't really "recordings" as they are
>> downloads so I have a hard time fitting them into the scheduler like you do
>> with guide data. Certainly managing feeds is a thing that can be done well
>> by Myth. I just don't see it as part of the guide but that may be just my
>> vision...
>>
>
>
> But I don't search schedules direct for shows or channels. Think of each
> RSS feed as a channel. I search the content of specific channel listings
> that schedules direct has nicely packaged together. Similar to what an RSS
> aggregator would do.
>
> I would update each RSS channel just like I do a SD channel. When a new
> show appears on any RSS channel my downloaded tuner would notice that it is
> time to download a new show and depending on my specific RSS recording rule
> either download or not. That way I can set shows to download based on
> custom rules or only download X episodes and expire old copies.
>
> Currently I can force the recordings into myth recordings post download but
> I lose all of the scheduling greatness and without a record rule id the
> Watch Programs groupings don't work.
>
> Dumping into a folder in mythvideo is the worst option because I can't
> delete watched shows from there. Plus the rss feed shows are more like
> recorded shows than videos.
>

Yeah, I understand that it can feel to the user that way. I'm just noting
that from a coding standpoint, the scheduler wouldn't jive with this model.
I certainly see your point about the user experience of it as opposed to how
it is actually coded. The user wouldn't care that the "channel" they see
in the guide isn't managed by the scheduler as long as the experience
closely resembles other recording types.

Kevin

kkuphal at gmail

Jul 22, 2008, 11:37 AM

Post #17 of 46 (839 views)
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Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Brad DerManouelian <myth[at]dermanouelian.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2008, at 11:27 AM, David Linville wrote:
>
> Exactly. Here is an example weekly hour long show that has been
> "broadcasting" for several years:
>
> http://revision3.com/diggnation/
> RSS feed: http://revision3.com/diggnation/feed/quicktime-high-definition/
>
> This show is so similar to a broadcast show that it feels wrong not to
> integrate it nicely with the rest of my recordings.
>
> I think it is a shame that this sort of explicitly legal use gets shouted
> down in these discussions. I've seen links to 3 or 4 shows in this thread
> alone that were put out by tv studios or others. I imagine this sort of
> distribution will only become more common in the future.
>
>
> It would be cool to subscribe to a ton of feeds and only download the
> episodes with matching keywords and have them appear in Watch Recordings.
> Much better than downloading a bunch of crap I don't want to see or sifting
> through YouTube to find the one thing of interest among millions of videos I
> don't care about. Let me know when it's done!
>

I agree. I have this on my TODO as part of finishing the MythNews RSS
enclosure support but I'm starting to see some value in taking this out of
MythNews and putting it more into the mainline frontend. I just updated my
home system to SVN with QT4 so I'm just about ready to start looking at the
code.

Kevin

nick.rout at gmail

Jul 22, 2008, 12:18 PM

Post #18 of 46 (839 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:26 AM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 10:28:36AM +1200, Nick Rout wrote:
>> In fact in NZ the rss feed shows (that are put there for download by
>> their creators) are more legal to keep long term than stuff recorded
>> from traditional TV (that become infringing if they are kept for "any
>> longer than is reasonably necessary for viewing or listening to the
>> recording at a more convenient time")
>
> Is that Betamax Case language?

Sounds like it doesn't it. Typical that NZ would pass a law to that
effect over 20 years after the Betamax case!
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jra at baylink

Jul 22, 2008, 12:43 PM

Post #19 of 46 (830 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 01:20:25PM -0500, David Linville wrote:
> But I don't search schedules direct for shows or channels. Think of each
> RSS feed as a channel. I search the content of specific channel listings
> that schedules direct has nicely packaged together. Similar to what an RSS
> aggregator would do.

Precisely what I envisioned: put each feed into it's own "channel",
synthesizing times if you have to.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra[at]baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Josef Stalin)
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jra at baylink

Jul 22, 2008, 12:44 PM

Post #20 of 46 (827 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 11:33:37AM -0700, Brad DerManouelian wrote:
> It would be cool to subscribe to a ton of feeds and only download
> the episodes with matching keywords and have them appear in Watch
> Recordings. Much better than downloading a bunch of crap I don't
> want to see or sifting through YouTube to find the one thing of
> interest among millions of videos I don't care about. Let me know
> when it's done!

Is that the polite version of "we look forward to your patch"? :-)

Don't look at me; I'm a systems analyst, not a coder.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra[at]baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Josef Stalin)
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

jra at baylink

Jul 22, 2008, 12:45 PM

Post #21 of 46 (828 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 01:37:19PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> I agree. I have this on my TODO as part of finishing the MythNews RSS
> enclosure support but I'm starting to see some value in taking this out of
> MythNews and putting it more into the mainline frontend. I just updated my
> home system to SVN with QT4 so I'm just about ready to start looking at the
> code.

(Yo, everybody! Shut up now! That's a better response than I
expected. :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra[at]baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Josef Stalin)
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

myth at dermanouelian

Jul 22, 2008, 12:52 PM

Post #22 of 46 (830 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Jul 22, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 11:33:37AM -0700, Brad DerManouelian wrote:
>> It would be cool to subscribe to a ton of feeds and only download
>> the episodes with matching keywords and have them appear in Watch
>> Recordings. Much better than downloading a bunch of crap I don't
>> want to see or sifting through YouTube to find the one thing of
>> interest among millions of videos I don't care about. Let me know
>> when it's done!
>
> Is that the polite version of "we look forward to your patch"? :-)

Yeah, sorry. I didn't realize I was being polite.

> Don't look at me; I'm a systems analyst, not a coder.

Oh, one of *those*. We'll never get it. ;)

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

kkuphal at gmail

Jul 22, 2008, 12:55 PM

Post #23 of 46 (830 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 01:37:19PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> > I agree. I have this on my TODO as part of finishing the MythNews RSS
> > enclosure support but I'm starting to see some value in taking this
> out of
> > MythNews and putting it more into the mainline frontend. I just
> updated my
> > home system to SVN with QT4 so I'm just about ready to start looking
> at the
> > code.
>
> (Yo, everybody! Shut up now! That's a better response than I
> expected. :-)

It is an interesting conundrum. It really can't be integrated into searches
per se because it isn't guide data. It doesn't fit in the traditional role
of the program guide because the programs are instantly available without
notice. How did you envision this appearing? Would you expect to see feed
"recording rules" along side normal rules in the Recording Priorities list?
I can see that, but then also it really doesn't require a priority because
it can't compete with other rules. I can't see them appearing in the guide
because, again, we have no future data for the feed. The only place they
really need to appear is 1) Watch Recordings and 2) The screens you use to
set them up.

Since 1) is just a DB import, 2) really is the crux and seems to really be
best managed by MythNews which already has the facility for setting up feeds
on the frontend. What were your ideas?

Kevin

myth at dermanouelian

Jul 22, 2008, 1:01 PM

Post #24 of 46 (831 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Jul 22, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Kevin Kuphal wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com>
> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 01:37:19PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> > I agree. I have this on my TODO as part of finishing the
> MythNews RSS
> > enclosure support but I'm starting to see some value in taking
> this out of
> > MythNews and putting it more into the mainline frontend. I
> just updated my
> > home system to SVN with QT4 so I'm just about ready to start
> looking at the
> > code.
>
> (Yo, everybody! Shut up now! That's a better response than I
> expected. :-)
>
> It is an interesting conundrum. It really can't be integrated into
> searches per se because it isn't guide data. It doesn't fit in the
> traditional role of the program guide because the programs are
> instantly available without notice. How did you envision this
> appearing? Would you expect to see feed "recording rules" along
> side normal rules in the Recording Priorities list? I can see that,
> but then also it really doesn't require a priority because it can't
> compete with other rules. I can't see them appearing in the guide
> because, again, we have no future data for the feed. The only place
> they really need to appear is 1) Watch Recordings and 2) The screens
> you use to set them up.
>
> Since 1) is just a DB import, 2) really is the crux and seems to
> really be best managed by MythNews which already has the facility
> for setting up feeds on the frontend. What were your ideas?

I know you're not asking me, but it makes sense to me to add a
component to MythNews that updates feeds in the background and also
checks a setting that says, "When metadata contains this regex,
download to storage directory and insert into Watch Recordings". Not
sure much else is needed.

It would be nice if there was an "Add this file with this metadata to
Watch Recordings" API in the Perl bindings. Just sayin'...

kkuphal at gmail

Jul 22, 2008, 1:12 PM

Post #25 of 46 (832 views)
Permalink

Re: Integrating non-traditional program sources into MythTV (won't tell you what it 'was:') [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Brad DerManouelian <myth[at]dermanouelian.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra[at]baylink.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 01:37:19PM -0500, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
>> > I agree. I have this on my TODO as part of finishing the MythNews
>> RSS
>> > enclosure support but I'm starting to see some value in taking this
>> out of
>> > MythNews and putting it more into the mainline frontend. I just
>> updated my
>> > home system to SVN with QT4 so I'm just about ready to start looking
>> at the
>> > code.
>>
>> (Yo, everybody! Shut up now! That's a better response than I
>> expected. :-)
>
>
> It is an interesting conundrum. It really can't be integrated into
> searches per se because it isn't guide data. It doesn't fit in the
> traditional role of the program guide because the programs are instantly
> available without notice. How did you envision this appearing? Would you
> expect to see feed "recording rules" along side normal rules in the
> Recording Priorities list? I can see that, but then also it really doesn't
> require a priority because it can't compete with other rules. I can't see
> them appearing in the guide because, again, we have no future data for the
> feed. The only place they really need to appear is 1) Watch Recordings and
> 2) The screens you use to set them up.
>
> Since 1) is just a DB import, 2) really is the crux and seems to really be
> best managed by MythNews which already has the facility for setting up feeds
> on the frontend. What were your ideas?
>
>
> I know you're not asking me, but it makes sense to me to add a component to
> MythNews that updates feeds in the background and also checks a setting that
> says, "When metadata contains this regex, download to storage directory and
> insert into Watch Recordings". Not sure much else is needed.
>

That's pretty much where I was headed with it. The regex/search would come
after the background downloading. I'm not sure yet if I'd code up our own
downloader or just set up a link to something like podcatcher which could
handle it all on a cron basis. Of course, it's one more external dependency
so attempting a native one has some value.

Kevin

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