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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 6:40 AM

Post #1 of 56 (6311 views)
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ticket locking

See http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/5436

Why is a serious report locked?
Are we so bored or fed up with users?

WHAT do you need not to quickly close a serious report?
I see something happening.
I gave more details.
You don't do anything that would add to understanding your actions.

I just notice that the size of the process of the backend grows over
time to large sizes (w.r.t. function and machineresizing).
If you ignore this report it tells me somethign about you.

There's nothing constructive in the feedback.
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gravityhammer at gmail

Jun 18, 2008, 6:52 AM

Post #2 of 56 (6226 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Udo van den Heuvel <udovdh [at] xs4all> wrote:
> See http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/5436
>
> Why is a serious report locked?
> Are we so bored or fed up with users?
>
> WHAT do you need not to quickly close a serious report?
> I see something happening.
> I gave more details.
> You don't do anything that would add to understanding your actions.
>
> I just notice that the size of the process of the backend grows over
> time to large sizes (w.r.t. function and machineresizing).
> If you ignore this report it tells me somethign about you.
>
> There's nothing constructive in the feedback.

Actuallym there is constructive feedback. Did you list a top or
freemem? It would probably be better received if you had some
empirical evidence - not "upnp is disabled; this has no effect on
memory consumption memory geos from a few % to 40% over time. "
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flo at flobittner

Jun 18, 2008, 6:55 AM

Post #3 of 56 (6233 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

danielk wrote this to your ticket:

"No valgrind log, not even evidence of increased memory usage?"

So perhabs you should provide this information?

Greetings,
Flo

Am Mittwoch 18.Juni 2008 15:40:52 schrieb Udo van den Heuvel:
> See http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/5436
>
> Why is a serious report locked?
> Are we so bored or fed up with users?
>
> WHAT do you need not to quickly close a serious report?
> I see something happening.
> I gave more details.
> You don't do anything that would add to understanding your actions.
>
> I just notice that the size of the process of the backend grows over
> time to large sizes (w.r.t. function and machineresizing).
> If you ignore this report it tells me somethign about you.
>
> There's nothing constructive in the feedback.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

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msherman at projectile

Jun 18, 2008, 7:01 AM

Post #4 of 56 (6232 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Udo van den Heuvel wrote:
> See http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/5436
>
> Why is a serious report locked?
> Are we so bored or fed up with users?
>
> WHAT do you need not to quickly close a serious report?
> I see something happening.
> I gave more details.
> You don't do anything that would add to understanding your actions.

You need to provide enough data for the devs to actually understand
what's happening on your system, such as the requested valgrind log.

> There's nothing constructive in the feedback.

Actually, the feedback requesting the valgrind log is the most
constructive line in that entire trac log.

- Marc
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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 7:30 AM

Post #5 of 56 (6216 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Marc Sherman wrote:
> You need to provide enough data for the devs to actually understand
> what's happening on your system, such as the requested valgrind log.

I use my system.
It's not a laboratory.
The system already has a high load as documented on this list.
Valgrind is not an option.
With it CPU (as well as load) go through the roof.

>> There's nothing constructive in the feedback.
>
> Actually, the feedback requesting the valgrind log is the most
> constructive line in that entire trac log.

Oh.
So when I see mythbackend growing to 40% of the RAM in a 1G machine that
does not have enough reason to ask specific questions?
It's not remarkable enough? It's normal?
It's not believable?

Come on. Take a user seriously.

It's a simple system with 1 DVB-T card and 7 virtual tuners.
So how hard can it be to reproduce?

So here I drop my report on the floor for everyone to grab.
It leaks.
It takes time, but it does.

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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 7:31 AM

Post #6 of 56 (6240 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Florian Bittner wrote:
> "No valgrind log, not even evidence of increased memory usage?"

Please elaborate on evidence.
When my written word isn't enough...

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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 7:32 AM

Post #7 of 56 (6235 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

> Actuallym there is constructive feedback. Did you list a top or
> freemem?

My word isn't enough?
I saw a process of the reported size.

Yes, it may be an uncommon way to report but I am serious.

In a few weeks I'll post some ps -ef greps to show...
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ron at ronfrazier

Jun 18, 2008, 7:41 AM

Post #8 of 56 (6232 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

> Please elaborate on evidence.
> When my written word isn't enough...

You were asked for specific details. Rather than post them as
requested, you replied "Enough evidence for me. Or can you convince me
otherwise? ". So basically, your response was "why should I bother
showing you the problem".

I can tell you that mythbackend has been running for nearly a month
and it's only at 60 meg resident memory for me.

Weren't you the one we were helping with the massive schedule of
recording multiple channels 24 hours a day? Perhaps you may have
uncovered a leak with your extreme usage. What you have been doing is
way beyond what pretty much everyone does, so it's not unbelievable
that (if you really did uncover a leak) nobody else has experienced it
yet.

--
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Ronald Frazier Photography - http://www.ronfphoto.com/
Blogging About Photography - http://ronfrazier.blogspot.com/
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greg at phaze

Jun 18, 2008, 7:44 AM

Post #9 of 56 (6235 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

> Florian Bittner wrote:
> > "No valgrind log, not even evidence of increased memory usage?"
>
> Please elaborate on evidence.
> When my written word isn't enough...

Oh come on, you can't be for real.

You provided no specifics on the problem on than
anecdotal "I think there is a problem" and when asked for more details
you get upset?

What do you expect a developer to do? Spend days and hours finding
problem based off a report that contains no details for them to even
begin narrowing down the problem?

No one has stated that you are lying or are incorrect. They are
asking for assistance from you for details in order to even
begin to reproduce and fix the problem.

If you cannot or willnot provide any details, and if noone else
experiencing it can provide any then it will remain undiagnosed.

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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 7:56 AM

Post #10 of 56 (6212 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Ronald Frazier wrote:
> I can tell you that mythbackend has been running for nearly a month
> and it's only at 60 meg resident memory for me.

Congrats.
That supports my idea that my observation was really a special case.

> Weren't you the one we were helping with the massive schedule of
> recording multiple channels 24 hours a day?

Yes. Only three channels, BTW.

> Perhaps you may have
> uncovered a leak with your extreme usage. What you have been doing is
> way beyond what pretty much everyone does, so it's not unbelievable
> that (if you really did uncover a leak) nobody else has experienced it
> yet.

OK.
So how can I provide the much-needed info without killing my machine
with valgrind? (it eats much CPU and makes mythbackend slow beyond
normal use; I am on a VIA EN12000)

Udo
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msherman at projectile

Jun 18, 2008, 7:56 AM

Post #11 of 56 (6221 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Udo van den Heuvel wrote:
>
> My word isn't enough?
> I saw a process of the reported size.

No-one's calling you a liar. You need to be helpful and give the
information requested if you want the problem to be solvable.

- Marc
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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 8:02 AM

Post #12 of 56 (6223 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Greg Estabrooks wrote:
>> When my written word isn't enough...
>
> Oh come on, you can't be for real.

You doubt my existence?

> You provided no specifics on the problem on than
> anecdotal "I think there is a problem" and when asked for more details
> you get upset?

Upset is what you read in my words.

> What do you expect a developer to do? Spend days and hours finding
> problem based off a report that contains no details for them to even
> begin narrowing down the problem?

Jump to extremes.

> No one has stated that you are lying or are incorrect. They are
> asking for assistance from you for details in order to even
> begin to reproduce and fix the problem.

Valgrind is not an option here.
My setup is quite simple/light.
The only 'extreme' is continuously recording three channels via 7
virtual tuners and 1 physical DVB-T tuner card.

Not doing much else with the box.

So yes, that is all there is.
And I could have been a bit more specific.
Because I was assuming that just recording was nothing special, the fact
that it grew to 40% of the system doing so *was* special.

> If you cannot or willnot provide any details, and if noone else
> experiencing it can provide any then it will remain undiagnosed.

Too bad.
We'll wait a few week so i can post all the ps -ef's etc that you need
to believe me. I do hope you can provide an other way than valgrind to
assist you in finding the locations of the supposed leaks.
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andy at tensixtyone

Jun 18, 2008, 8:15 AM

Post #13 of 56 (6253 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

2008/6/18 Udo van den Heuvel <udovdh [at] xs4all>:

<cut needed ranting>

> Valgrind is not an option here.
> My setup is quite simple/light.
> The only 'extreme' is continuously recording three channels via 7
> virtual tuners and 1 physical DVB-T tuner card.

Considering that multirec went in not too long ago, I'd classify your
setup as extreme.

> Not doing much else with the box.
>
> So yes, that is all there is.
> And I could have been a bit more specific.
> Because I was assuming that just recording was nothing special, the fact
> that it grew to 40% of the system doing so *was* special.
>

40% of what? Nowhere have you specified how much actual RAM you have.
40% of 512MB is acceptable, 40% of 4GB would be crazy.

> Too bad.
> We'll wait a few week so i can post all the ps -ef's etc that you need
> to believe me. I do hope you can provide an other way than valgrind to
> assist you in finding the locations of the supposed leaks.

*sigh*

No one is psychic, no one is saying your lying, stamping your feet
isn't providing more information.

If its a leak, valgrind is the best option, otherwise you'll be
looking for a needle in a haystack. Diagnosing the issue without a
valgrind log would be damm near impossible.

--
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e: andy [at] tensixtyone
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ron at ronfrazier

Jun 18, 2008, 8:33 AM

Post #14 of 56 (6195 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

> 40% of what? Nowhere have you specified how much actual RAM you have.
> 40% of 512MB is acceptable, 40% of 4GB would be crazy.

In his ticket he posted that it was a 1GB box, so that puts it at
about 400MB usage. I'm wondering if he read the resident memory or the
virtual memory stats. My backend is only using 60MB resident. It's
reporting over 300MB virtual, though I have no swap partition, so it
must just be doing sparse allocation/usage.

--
Ron
Ronald Frazier Photography - http://www.ronfphoto.com/
Blogging About Photography - http://ronfrazier.blogspot.com/
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pebender at san

Jun 18, 2008, 8:35 AM

Post #15 of 56 (6208 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Udo van den Heuvel wrote:
> Ronald Frazier wrote:
>> I can tell you that mythbackend has been running for nearly a month
>> and it's only at 60 meg resident memory for me.
>
> Congrats.
> That supports my idea that my observation was really a special case.

Congrats.

You admit believe that your problem is a special case yet you refuse to
provide any information to help others debug the problem. If others do
not see the problem (that you believe is a special case) and they do not
have any information (because you refuse to provide it), then how do you
expect others to find the problem?
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andy at tensixtyone

Jun 18, 2008, 8:40 AM

Post #16 of 56 (6224 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

2008/6/18 Ronald Frazier <ron [at] ronfrazier>:
>> 40% of what? Nowhere have you specified how much actual RAM you have.
>> 40% of 512MB is acceptable, 40% of 4GB would be crazy.
>
> In his ticket he posted that it was a 1GB box, so that puts it at
> about 400MB usage. I'm wondering if he read the resident memory or the
> virtual memory stats. My backend is only using 60MB resident. It's
> reporting over 300MB virtual, though I have no swap partition, so it
> must just be doing sparse allocation/usage.

Ahh, apologies, I must of missed that in the mass of emails :)

Just checked mine, 440mb virtual, 110mb resident. If he's reading
Virtual then yes it should be OK (Also a 1GB box here).

--
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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 9:20 AM

Post #17 of 56 (6193 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Andrew Williams wrote:
> Just checked mine, 440mb virtual, 110mb resident. If he's reading
> Virtual then yes it should be OK (Also a 1GB box here).

I just read the %MEM of top.
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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 9:23 AM

Post #18 of 56 (6226 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Paul Bender wrote:
>> That supports my idea that my observation was really a special case.
>
> Congrats.
>
> You admit believe that your problem is a special case yet you refuse to

refuse?
can't/don't know/etc.
Don't make me appear as unwilling to assist insolving a case.

Also I was believing that MythTV was designed to (also) record TV.
Over here it does so, 24/7 for 3 channels using 7 virtual tuners on one
real card.
Because recording is all it does and because recording is the main
feature of MythTV it was strange to see it grow this big. This should
have been notice before by someone else!?
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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 9:25 AM

Post #19 of 56 (6188 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Andrew Williams wrote:
> If its a leak, valgrind is the best option, otherwise you'll be
> looking for a needle in a haystack. Diagnosing the issue without a
> valgrind log would be damm near impossible.

Then you'll have to wait for my valgrind help until VIA releases one of
those EPIA boards with that new faster CPU (with supported video chip,
etc, etc).
So if there's any other info that could help, just let me know.

Kind regards,
Udo
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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 9:28 AM

Post #20 of 56 (6222 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Marc Sherman wrote:
> Udo van den Heuvel wrote:
>> My word isn't enough?
>> I saw a process of the reported size.
>
> No-one's calling you a liar. You need to be helpful and give the
> information requested if you want the problem to be solvable.

I didn't use the word liar.
I pointed out an issue.

I did NOT point out in what part of the source code it is.
Nor what is actually happening when it happens.
(that is what you appear to be expecting and what is the `developer`
style of dealing with an issue; now just take my info on how the
straightforward MythTV setup is over here and have a look on a faster
machine...)

Kind regards,
Udo
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myth at dermanouelian

Jun 18, 2008, 9:59 AM

Post #21 of 56 (6208 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

On Jun 18, 2008, at 9:23 AM, Udo van den Heuvel wrote:

> Paul Bender wrote:
>>> That supports my idea that my observation was really a special case.
>>
>> Congrats.
>>
>> You admit believe that your problem is a special case yet you
>> refuse to
>
> refuse?
> can't/don't know/etc.
> Don't make me appear as unwilling to assist insolving a case.

You said you won't load valgrind. Now you'll have to wait until
someone else reproduces your situation WITH valgrind in order to give
the devs something to start with.

>
>
> Also I was believing that MythTV was designed to (also) record TV.
> Over here it does so, 24/7 for 3 channels using 7 virtual tuners on
> one
> real card.
> Because recording is all it does and because recording is the main
> feature of MythTV it was strange to see it grow this big. This should
> have been notice before by someone else!?

You're the first. If you can't provide the devs with the information
they request, you have to wait patiently until someone else runs
across the problem and can provide the information required to
investigate.

If this were a corporate software company, the Quality Assurance team
would replicate your environment as closely as possible and run
valgrind to see where the memory leak is. This is open source. There
is no QA department. We are all QA and you're the only one with your
environment that is causing the issue.

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udovdh at xs4all

Jun 18, 2008, 10:20 AM

Post #22 of 56 (6194 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

Brad DerManouelian wrote:
~/backendsize.log
>> Don't make me appear as unwilling to assist insolving a case.
>
> You said you won't load valgrind.

Did I ever specify reasons?

> Now you'll have to wait until
> someone else reproduces your situation WITH valgrind in order to give
> the devs something to start with.

Sure.
But I pointed out the situation and am willing to give all info on the
specifics of this MythTV installation.
The way they want to solve the problem (using valgrind and not by
lookign at code or by any other way) is not within my field of influence.
This means that I am not unwilling, perhaps just unable due to the
specific situation. (or load me a board and card and I will place copy
of my setup on that system)

>> Because recording is all it does and because recording is the main
>> feature of MythTV it was strange to see it grow this big. This should
>> have been notice before by someone else!?
>
> You're the first. If you can't provide the devs with the information
> they request,

The 'information' is, as I found out, specifically pointing out what
went wrong where.
As my setup is not that difficult to reproduce it is not just me being
the cause of a delayed solution to this bug.

> If this were a corporate software company, the Quality Assurance team
> would replicate your environment as closely as possible and run
> valgrind to see where the memory leak is. This is open source. There
> is no QA department. We are all QA and you're the only one with your
> environment that is causing the issue.

I did my QA job as far as I could.
I pointed out an issue.
I can provide all info/details on the setup except the valgrind thing.
So that is my 100%.

I only hear the valgrind mantra, but I can't change that music.

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andy at tensixtyone

Jun 18, 2008, 10:53 AM

Post #23 of 56 (6202 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

2008/6/18 Udo van den Heuvel <udovdh [at] xs4all>:

> Sure.
> But I pointed out the situation and am willing to give all info on the
> specifics of this MythTV installation.
> The way they want to solve the problem (using valgrind and not by
> lookign at code or by any other way) is not within my field of influence.
> This means that I am not unwilling, perhaps just unable due to the
> specific situation. (or load me a board and card and I will place copy
> of my setup on that system)
>
>

I'm not sure if you understand what valgrind does, nor do you
understand how large the mythtv codebase is.

<snip>

> The 'information' is, as I found out, specifically pointing out what
> went wrong where.
> As my setup is not that difficult to reproduce it is not just me being
> the cause of a delayed solution to this bug.
>

You say that, but alot of variables go into a working system

Hardware: exact make, models, bios revisions, card details, card versions, etc.
OS: Distro, library versions, stock or distro patched versions
MythTv: plugins, compile time options, optimization flags (if on a
source distro).

Any of these could cause the problem, replicating a system isn't as
easy as you make out.

Fact is, if its causing you major pain to have it leaking memory then
you should shut down your system long enough to do some diagnosis work
on it. Otherwise, suck it up. I was in a similar situation last year
with a memory leak sucking 300-400mb on a daily basis, just had to sit
it out and hope for the best.

--
Andrew Williams
w: http://tensixtyone.com/
e: andy [at] tensixtyone
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myth at dermanouelian

Jun 18, 2008, 11:07 AM

Post #24 of 56 (6197 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

On Jun 18, 2008, at 10:20 AM, Udo van den Heuvel wrote:
<a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter>

I can guarantee you that arguing that you have provided enough
information even though you have no provided the requested information
will not result in an investigation into your issue. I can also
guarantee you that the longer this thread goes on, the less likely
someone will take pity on your environment, stop whatever else they
are doing, set up an environment that matches yours, run it for a
couple of days to watch memory usage climb, look into the source code,
find the problem, fix the problem, test the fix, post the patch and
wait for it to be accepted into trunk.

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remco at rvt

Jun 18, 2008, 11:24 AM

Post #25 of 56 (6214 views)
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Re: ticket locking [In reply to]

On Wednesday 18 June 2008, Brad DerManouelian wrote:
> On Jun 18, 2008, at 9:23 AM, Udo van den Heuvel wrote:
> > Paul Bender wrote:
> >>> That supports my idea that my observation was really a special case.
> >>
> >> Congrats.
> >>
> >> You admit believe that your problem is a special case yet you
> >> refuse to
> >
> > refuse?
> > can't/don't know/etc.
> > Don't make me appear as unwilling to assist insolving a case.
>
> You said you won't load valgrind. Now you'll have to wait until
> someone else reproduces your situation WITH valgrind in order to give
> the devs something to start with.
>
> > Also I was believing that MythTV was designed to (also) record TV.
> > Over here it does so, 24/7 for 3 channels using 7 virtual tuners on
> > one
> > real card.
> > Because recording is all it does and because recording is the main
> > feature of MythTV it was strange to see it grow this big. This should
> > have been notice before by someone else!?
>
> You're the first. If you can't provide the devs with the information
> they request, you have to wait patiently until someone else runs
> across the problem and can provide the information required to
> investigate.
>
> If this were a corporate software company, the Quality Assurance team
> would replicate your environment as closely as possible and run
> valgrind to see where the memory leak is. This is open source. There
> is no QA department. We are all QA and you're the only one with your
> environment that is causing the issue.

Sorry dude!

A bug report of any kind is information. As it ages its significance declines
if no data is added. Eventually it can fade away...

The open source development model is not different from closed source in the
handling of bugs. If the "customer" reports a bug, but can not provide
detail, the report stays active till dis-prooven or it dies of old age.

A statement like "There is no QA. We are all QA..." is confusing to me.

And "you're the only one with your environment that is causing the issue"
sounds a lot like blaming the user.

I maintain both o/s and commercial s/w. I treat all my "customers" the same.
They help me make my s/w better. Every bug report helps me. If I can not get
enough information from the user, I say "Thank you" and let the bug stand
till somebody else provides input, or it ages...

This is the only "users" list I am subscribed to, but it really upsets me more
than all the dev lists together.

--
Remco Treffkorn (RT445)
HAM DC2XT
remco [at] rvt (831) 685-1201

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