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Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux

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david at thegeorges

Apr 8, 2008, 7:18 AM

Post #1 of 39 (7871 views)
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Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux

I just received the following from Hauppauge on my query about Linux
support:

"Linux drivers will not be available for this product at the time of
it's release.
All Linux support for Hauppauge hardware is 3rd party, so in time, there
likely will be a Linux driver available from the Linux community like most
of the other Hauppauge products, but nothing in the short term."

--
David

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mark at onnow

Apr 8, 2008, 7:42 AM

Post #2 of 39 (7754 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

David George wrote:
> I just received the following from Hauppauge on my query about Linux
> support:
>
> "Linux drivers will not be available for this product at the time of
> it's release.
> All Linux support for Hauppauge hardware is 3rd party, so in time, there
> likely will be a Linux driver available from the Linux community like most
> of the other Hauppauge products, but nothing in the short term."
>
>
That is quite unfortunate. Perhaps is Hauppauge understood how many
addition units it would sell if they included Linux support. Perhaps
they are not concerned about that.
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lemongecko at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 7:55 AM

Post #3 of 39 (7758 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On 4/8/08, Mark Hutchinson wrote:
> >
> That is quite unfortunate. Perhaps is Hauppauge understood how many
> addition units it would sell if they included Linux support. Perhaps
> they are not concerned about that.
> _______________________________________________

I don't know if that's such a bad thing. They're not being obstinate,
and other Hauppauge products have seen great support through the
efforts of the IVTV crew. Whether or not the IVTV guys get much help
from Hauppauge, I don't know. I DO know that most vendor-drivers tend
to have a high amount of suck, and updates are usually few and far
between. Since we ARE a minority to them, I would be surprised if we
would get one new update for every 5 that the Windows drivers would
get. And it'd probably only be delivered in a binary RPM format that
would work with 3 or 4 kernel revisions.

While it might take longer (and as long as Hauppauge isn't hiding all
the clever bits from the linux devs), I think we'll be in better hands
from an ongoing driver improvement standpoint.
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ryan.goat at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 7:56 AM

Post #4 of 39 (7741 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Mark Hutchinson wrote:

> David George wrote:
> > I just received the following from Hauppauge on my query about Linux
> > support:
> >
> > "Linux drivers will not be available for this product at the time of
> > it's release.
> > All Linux support for Hauppauge hardware is 3rd party, so in time, there
> > likely will be a Linux driver available from the Linux community like
> most
> > of the other Hauppauge products, but nothing in the short term."
> >
> >
> That is quite unfortunate. Perhaps is Hauppauge understood how many
> addition units it would sell if they included Linux support. Perhaps
> they are not concerned about that.
>

No, I'd say Hauppauge knows that the Linux community will provide drivers.
So why should Hauppauge spend time/money making linux drivers themselves.
Furthermore Hauppauge knows that 3rd party linux drivers will be more
stable, robust, well maintained, and documented then any driver Hauppauge
has ever produced internally.

--
_____________
Ryan Patterson

jheizer at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 8:04 AM

Post #5 of 39 (7752 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

patterson wrote:

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Mark Hutchinson wrote:

David George wrote:
> I just received the following from Hauppauge on my query about Linux
> support:
>
> "Linux drivers will not be available for this product at the time of
> it's release.
> All Linux support for Hauppauge hardware is 3rd party, so in time, there
> likely will be a Linux driver available from the Linux community like most
> of the other Hauppauge products, but nothing in the short term."
>
>
That is quite unfortunate. Perhaps is Hauppauge understood how many
addition units it would sell if they included Linux support. Perhaps
they are not concerned about that.

No, I'd say Hauppauge knows that the Linux community will provide drivers. So why should Hauppauge spend time/money making linux drivers themselves. Furthermore Hauppauge knows that 3rd party linux drivers will be more stable, robust, well maintained, and documented then any driver Hauppauge has ever produced internally.

"I'd say Hauppauge knows that the Linux community will provide drivers. So why should Hauppauge spend time/money making linux drivers themselves. "

Basically what I was thinking. Why should they spend the money when others will do it for free... Hopefully they at least lend a hand to the devs that end up working on this.

drescherjm at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 8:07 AM

Post #6 of 39 (7740 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

> Whether or not the IVTV guys get much help
> from Hauppauge, I don't know.

Hans Verkuil would know exactly the level because he is the main
developer of the ivtv drivers. However I do remember him mentioning
that they provide him some support along with diagrams.

John
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beww at beww

Apr 8, 2008, 8:11 AM

Post #7 of 39 (7746 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Apr 8, 2008, at 8:56 AM, ryan patterson wrote:

>
> No, I'd say Hauppauge knows that the Linux community will provide
> drivers. So why should Hauppauge spend time/money making linux
> drivers themselves. Furthermore Hauppauge knows that 3rd party
> linux drivers will be more stable, robust, well maintained, and
> documented then any driver Hauppauge has ever produced internally.

Hauppauge also knows that Linux users in general, and perhaps Myth
users specifically, are regarded by H'Wood as a "bunch of pirates". I
can certainly understand that they might want to separate themselves
from the Linux effort.

No sane businessman would spend time and money to increase his
exposure to possible hassle from the program suppliers, at least not
without the likelihood of vastly increased profits.

So what we all have to do is show Hauppauge that we are a significant
market segment. Try and make sure when you order that they know you
are a Linux user.

beww

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mitchell.gore at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 8:11 AM

Post #8 of 39 (7768 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:56 AM, ryan patterson <ryan.goat [at] gmail> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Mark Hutchinson wrote:
>
> > David George wrote:
> > > I just received the following from Hauppauge on my query about Linux
> > > support:
> > >
> > > "Linux drivers will not be available for this product at the time of
> > > it's release.
> > > All Linux support for Hauppauge hardware is 3rd party, so in time,
> > there
> > > likely will be a Linux driver available from the Linux community like
> > most
> > > of the other Hauppauge products, but nothing in the short term."
> > >
> > >
> > That is quite unfortunate. Perhaps is Hauppauge understood how many
> > addition units it would sell if they included Linux support. Perhaps
> > they are not concerned about that.
> >
>
> No, I'd say Hauppauge knows that the Linux community will provide
> drivers. So why should Hauppauge spend time/money making linux drivers
> themselves. Furthermore Hauppauge knows that 3rd party linux drivers will
> be more stable, robust, well maintained, and documented then any driver
> Hauppauge has ever produced internally.
>
>
> --
> _____________
> Ryan Patterson
> _______________________________________________
>
This is exactly why i held off on the pre-order. the page was vague from
the beginning. I am sure we will get drivers but may take a month or so
then time to add it to Myth. I would estimate now it will be ~3-4 months
before we have full MythTV integration and an updated STABLE build to
support it... smelling .21.1 tho. No big deal, i can wait.

Any one trying to cancel their pre-orders now?

Mitchell

mark at onnow

Apr 8, 2008, 8:17 AM

Post #9 of 39 (7743 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

John Drescher wrote:
>> Whether or not the IVTV guys get much help
>> from Hauppauge, I don't know.
>>
>
> Hans Verkuil would know exactly the level because he is the main
> developer of the ivtv drivers. However I do remember him mentioning
> that they provide him some support along with diagrams.
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
Interesting. Curious, has anyone talked to him to see if any
hardware/diagrams have been already supplied?
I am just curious what level of support will be anticipated when the
device is released.

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fancypantalons at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 9:01 AM

Post #10 of 39 (7730 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

> Hauppauge also knows that Linux users in general, and perhaps Myth
> users specifically, are regarded by H'Wood as a "bunch of pirates". I
> can certainly understand that they might want to separate themselves
> from the Linux effort.

Strange, given that Myth users would, I suspect, want such devices so
they can record content from their own cable subscriptions, which
seems to be the exact opposite of what a pirate would do. After all,
if I was just one of these pirates, wouldn't I just download the
content?

Or are you suggesting that people believe Myth users are part of a
global cabal to illegally distribute HD-quality broadcasts to the
public?

Brett.
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mitchell.gore at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 9:05 AM

Post #11 of 39 (7735 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Brett Kosinski <fancypantalons [at] gmail>
wrote:

> > Hauppauge also knows that Linux users in general, and perhaps Myth
> > users specifically, are regarded by H'Wood as a "bunch of pirates". I
> > can certainly understand that they might want to separate themselves
> > from the Linux effort.
>
> Strange, given that Myth users would, I suspect, want such devices so
> they can record content from their own cable subscriptions, which
> seems to be the exact opposite of what a pirate would do. After all,
> if I was just one of these pirates, wouldn't I just download the
> content?
>
> Or are you suggesting that people believe Myth users are part of a
> global cabal to illegally distribute HD-quality broadcasts to the
> public?
>
> Brett.
> _______________________________________________
>

More probably the later. Myth does provide the functionality for pirating
if you want to, commflag, user job to export to xvid, etc. But so do all
the other PVR's out there.

Mitchell

drescherjm at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 9:06 AM

Post #12 of 39 (7735 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Brett Kosinski
<fancypantalons [at] gmail> wrote:
> > Hauppauge also knows that Linux users in general, and perhaps Myth
> > users specifically, are regarded by H'Wood as a "bunch of pirates". I
> > can certainly understand that they might want to separate themselves
> > from the Linux effort.
>
> Strange, given that Myth users would, I suspect, want such devices so
> they can record content from their own cable subscriptions, which
> seems to be the exact opposite of what a pirate would do. After all,
> if I was just one of these pirates, wouldn't I just download the
> content?
>
> Or are you suggesting that people believe Myth users are part of a
> global cabal to illegally distribute HD-quality broadcasts to the
> public?
>
I think it is more of it is technically illegal to play a dvd in
linux. So anyone that plays a dvd is a pirate...

John
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drescherjm at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 9:09 AM

Post #13 of 39 (7744 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

> More probably the later. Myth does provide the functionality for pirating
> if you want to, commflag, user job to export to xvid, etc. But so do all
> the other PVR's out there.
>
Doesn't tivo encrypt your files so you can not use them outside of the box??

John
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brian.phillips at gmx

Apr 8, 2008, 9:13 AM

Post #14 of 39 (7722 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

Brett Kosinski wrote:
>> Hauppauge also knows that Linux users in general, and perhaps Myth
>> users specifically, are regarded by H'Wood as a "bunch of pirates". I
>> can certainly understand that they might want to separate themselves
>> from the Linux effort.
>
> Strange, given that Myth users would, I suspect, want such devices so
> they can record content from their own cable subscriptions, which
> seems to be the exact opposite of what a pirate would do. After all,
> if I was just one of these pirates, wouldn't I just download the
> content?
>
> Or are you suggesting that people believe Myth users are part of a
> global cabal to illegally distribute HD-quality broadcasts to the
> public?
>

I think there's a stigma. We, as hackers are wont to do, see shades of grey
when shopping for PC hardware. Instead of saying "what is it designed to
do?" we follow up with "and what can I make it do that it doesn't currently
do?" The stigma from hollywood and others is, if you aren't using it for
what it was intended to do, you must be wanting to steal it. It's sad, but
I would agree that myth users, being relatively unknown, get labeled as
pirates. The first thing my parents and in-laws did when I showed them the
mythbox I set up was ask "and it's legal?!" in a very incredulous manner. I
reminded them of the days of VHS recordings of television shows and that
assuaged them.

In the days of hollywood's witchhunt and propaganda machine, people are very
skeptical of anything that doesn't conform to "the side of the box"
thinking. You know the side, it's the side that says "recommended
hardware/system requirements".

Brian

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fancypantalons at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 9:28 AM

Post #15 of 39 (7728 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

> pirates. The first thing my parents and in-laws did when I showed them the
> mythbox I set up was ask "and it's legal?!" in a very incredulous manner. I

And I find this incredibly bizarre. I mean, sure, if you've never
seen a PVR before, I can see how one might be ignorant of the legality
of these things. But PVRs are *everywhere* these days. And Myth is
just another PVR. As such, I strongly suspect the reaction of your
parents was atypical (speaking for myself, I've never had anyone ask
me if my Myth system is legal).

Brett.
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digitalaudiorock at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 9:30 AM

Post #16 of 39 (7725 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
>
> Hauppauge also knows that Linux users in general, and perhaps Myth
> users specifically, are regarded by H'Wood as a "bunch of pirates". I
> can certainly understand that they might want to separate themselves
> from the Linux effort.
>

I don't believe it for a second. Their entire business pretty much
revolves around those (Linux, Windows or otherwise) who want the
freedom to use their own hardware and who believe in consumer rights
when it comes to TV.

If they were that afraid of the repercussions they wouldn't even be in business.

Tom
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lemongecko at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 9:37 AM

Post #17 of 39 (7739 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On 4/8/08, Brian Phillips <brian.phillips [at] gmx> wrote:
> ...Instead of saying "what is it designed to
> do?" we follow up with "and what can I make it do that it doesn't currently
> do?" The stigma from hollywood and others is, if you aren't using it for
> what it was intended to do, you must be wanting to steal it.

"Hack the planet!" ;-)

I think it's even more simple than you suggest. I believe for many
it's the desire for content delivery on a powerful platform that
allows us to view media on our own terms. That flexible delivery
completely undermines corporate ability to control who has media and
how it's watched. If we can take our HDTV recordings, cut / slice /
dice / transcode them to our iPhones, how in the world will they sell
it to you twice? ;-)

I can't wait for the 1212 to get support. It may singlehandedly make
the "death of Myth in the US" moot by simplifying content retrieval
from satallite & digital cable alike. And it won't be alone. Unless
some large media company has the cojones to try and get an injunction
on sales of such devices (not likely with the number of legal uses to
which these devices can be put), I'd wager in another year we'll see
similar devices from Pinnacle, DViCo & Kworld.

Right now I don't have a single digital cable box. I'll gladly pick up
TWO of them if it means I can watch the content I pay for on my terms.
Hell, I might even pay for Showtime.
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mrand at pobox

Apr 8, 2008, 10:11 AM

Post #18 of 39 (7761 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Mark Hutchinson wrote:
> >> Whether or not the IVTV guys get much help
> >> from Hauppauge, I don't know.
> >
> > Hans Verkuil would know exactly the level because he is the main
> > developer of the ivtv drivers. However I do remember him mentioning
> > that they provide him some support along with diagrams.
>
> Interesting. Curious, has anyone talked to him to see if any
> hardware/diagrams have been already supplied?
> I am just curious what level of support will be anticipated when the
> device is released.

While Hans is an excellent resource, and may be involved with a driver
for the HD-PVR, most people seem to be missing that ivtv is mainly
focused on the Conexent-based devices. The HD-PVR is based on a
brand-new chip - and just as importantly, a chip from a company with
no history (that I can find) in the Linux world. New
reverse-engineering may need to be done. Not trying to sound grim or
discouraging - just laying out the possibilities.

In a super high-level sense, the driver for the HD-PVR is going to be
slightly more similar to pvrusb2 driver (now maintained by Mike Isely
at http://www.isely.net/pvrusb2/pvrusb2.html) than the ivtv driver,
but even that is a stretch. It is going to be a new driver.

Marc
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scram69 at gmail

Apr 8, 2008, 10:30 AM

Post #19 of 39 (7715 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Brett Kosinski <fancypantalons [at] gmail> wrote:
> > pirates. The first thing my parents and in-laws did when I showed them the
> > mythbox I set up was ask "and it's legal?!" in a very incredulous manner. I
>
> And I find this incredibly bizarre. I mean, sure, if you've never
> seen a PVR before, I can see how one might be ignorant of the legality
> of these things. But PVRs are *everywhere* these days. And Myth is
> just another PVR. As such, I strongly suspect the reaction of your
> parents was atypical (speaking for myself, I've never had anyone ask
> me if my Myth system is legal).
>
> Brett.

Neither bizarre nor atypical in my experience. I get that reaction
all the time. Of course, I live in the land of Comcast, where it is
assumed that if your cable bill isn't at least $100/month you must be
stealing something...
Most of the "incredulous" reactions come along the lines of "how are
you watching HD without the 'HD Package'? That _must_ be illegal..."
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davilla at 4pi

Apr 8, 2008, 10:30 AM

Post #20 of 39 (7723 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

>On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Mark Hutchinson wrote:
>> >> Whether or not the IVTV guys get much help
>> >> from Hauppauge, I don't know.
>> >
>> > Hans Verkuil would know exactly the level because he is the main
>> > developer of the ivtv drivers. However I do remember him mentioning
>> > that they provide him some support along with diagrams.
>>
>> Interesting. Curious, has anyone talked to him to see if any
>> hardware/diagrams have been already supplied?
>> I am just curious what level of support will be anticipated when the
>> device is released.
>
>While Hans is an excellent resource, and may be involved with a driver
>for the HD-PVR, most people seem to be missing that ivtv is mainly
>focused on the Conexent-based devices. The HD-PVR is based on a
>brand-new chip - and just as importantly, a chip from a company with
>no history (that I can find) in the Linux world. New
>reverse-engineering may need to be done. Not trying to sound grim or
>discouraging - just laying out the possibilities.
>
>In a super high-level sense, the driver for the HD-PVR is going to be
>slightly more similar to pvrusb2 driver (now maintained by Mike Isely
>at http://www.isely.net/pvrusb2/pvrusb2.html) than the ivtv driver,
>but even that is a stretch. It is going to be a new driver.
>

It does not matter what they are using internally, it's USB on the
outside and USB can be snooped under windows and the protocol
discovered. It's fairly trivial to do but I don't think this will be
required as it seems Hauppauge might disclose it. But even if they
don't, it's not a show stopper.

The USB "driver" can be a user space driver in the same manner as the
HDHomeRun. It's a similar driver too, some setup, go and catch the
encoded output. Simple.

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pc-mythtv07a at crowcastle

Apr 8, 2008, 10:40 AM

Post #21 of 39 (7737 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 13:30 -0400, Scott D. Davilla wrote:
> It does not matter what they are using internally, it's USB on the
> outside and USB can be snooped under windows and the protocol
> discovered. It's fairly trivial to do but I don't think this will be
> required as it seems Hauppauge might disclose it. But even if they
> don't, it's not a show stopper.
>
> The USB "driver" can be a user space driver in the same manner as the
> HDHomeRun. It's a similar driver too, some setup, go and catch the
> encoded output. Simple.

Basic functionality should be relatively easy, but it may be a bit
longer before full control over encoding parameters and the IR control
work from Linux. Still, assuming they aren't intentionally obfuscating
the controls, snooping should allow any feature that works under Windows
to work under Linux.

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beww at beww

Apr 8, 2008, 10:41 AM

Post #22 of 39 (7736 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Apr 8, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Brett Kosinski wrote:
>> pirates. The first thing my parents and in-laws did when I showed
>> them the
>> mythbox I set up was ask "and it's legal?!" in a very incredulous
>> manner. I
>
> And I find this incredibly bizarre. I mean, sure, if you've never
> seen a PVR before, I can see how one might be ignorant of the legality
> of these things. But PVRs are *everywhere* these days. And Myth is
> just another PVR. As such, I strongly suspect the reaction of your
> parents was atypical (speaking for myself, I've never had anyone ask
> me if my Myth system is legal).

It's obviously illegal, because you didn't get it from the cable or
satellite company :-)

beww

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beww at beww

Apr 8, 2008, 10:42 AM

Post #23 of 39 (7735 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Apr 8, 2008, at 10:05 AM, Mitch Gore wrote:

>
> More probably the later. Myth does provide the functionality for
> pirating if you want to, commflag, user job to export to xvid, etc.
> But so do all the other PVR's out there.

Really? What other PVRs have commercial skip and easy export?

beww

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beww at beww

Apr 8, 2008, 10:43 AM

Post #24 of 39 (7727 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Apr 8, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Tom Dexter wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
>>
>> Hauppauge also knows that Linux users in general, and perhaps Myth
>> users specifically, are regarded by H'Wood as a "bunch of pirates". I
>> can certainly understand that they might want to separate themselves
>> from the Linux effort.
>>
>
> I don't believe it for a second. Their entire business pretty much
> revolves around those (Linux, Windows or otherwise) who want the
> freedom to use their own hardware and who believe in consumer rights
> when it comes to TV.
>
> If they were that afraid of the repercussions they wouldn't even be
> in business.

Not afraid of, just aware of, and bright enough to not spend resources
on Linux drivers that might increase the risk, especially since there
are lots of volunteers who will produce them.

beww

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mrand at pobox

Apr 8, 2008, 10:43 AM

Post #25 of 39 (7725 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD-PVR will not initially support Linux [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Scott D. Davilla <davilla [at] 4pi> wrote:
>> [...] most people seem to be missing that ivtv is mainly focused on the
>> Conexent-based devices.
>> [snip my additional navel gazing regarding the forthcoming HD-PVR]
>
> It does not matter what they are using internally, it's USB on the
> outside and USB can be snooped under windows and the protocol
> discovered. It's fairly trivial to do but I don't think this will be
> required as it seems Hauppauge might disclose it. But even if they
> don't, it's not a show stopper.
>
> The USB "driver" can be a user space driver in the same manner as the
> HDHomeRun. It's a similar driver too, some setup, go and catch the
> encoded output. Simple.

Very good points. Thanks. Despite comparing it to the pvrusb2, I'd
nearly forgotten that it was an external device, which as you said,
makes snooping relatively easy. As long as they didn't do something
crazy or stupid, it should indeed be pretty straight forward.

Marc
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