Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Users

Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it)

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rcs at malibyte

Feb 28, 2008, 2:43 PM

Post #1 of 14 (1668 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it)

mythtv-users-request[at]mythtv.org wrote:
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> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:18:36 -0800
> From: Yeechang Lee <ylee[at]pobox.com>
> Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for
> those starved for it)
> To: Discussion about mythtv <mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org>
> Message-ID: <18375.9516.121121.130657[at]dobie.ylee.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Robert McNamara <robert.mcnamara[at]gmail.com> says:
>> For those who can't wait for any little bit of info, here's a frame
>> dump from a HD PVR capture @ 1920x1080 and 9 Mbit-ish.
>>
>> http://www.fecitfacta.com/00000001.jpg
>>
>> I think it looks excellent.
>
> Agreed. A 9Mbps PBS 1080i stream (4GB/hour) is surely simpler to
> process than a 19.2Mbps 1080i stream (7.5-8GB/hour), however. Despite
> the stated 25Mbps limit of the hardware encoder, I certainly look
> forward to future examples at higher bitrates.
>
> That said, the news of the device's presence in the hands of ffmpeg
> developers and others certainly gives me hope that we'll see viable
> Linux (and, heck, maybe even MythTV) support from day one of
> availability. I'd be interested, despite having open FireWire ports,
> for the following reasons:
>
> * Smaller filesizes.[1]
> * No need to deal with the somewhat-problematic Linux FireWire stack.
> * No longer vulnerable to cable companies' decisions on FireWire
> access.
>
> I remain unsure of which way to go regarding a 1080i h.264-capable
> frontend, as no one yet (to my knowledge) has yet answered the
> question in the last paragraph of
> <URL:http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/317259#317259>
> in the context of the internal player.
>
> [1] I hope someone is already mulling over a script that will automate
> the process of playing MPEG-2 recordings over component, capturing
> them via the Hauppauge device, and replacing the old with the new,
> smaller, MPEG-4 version. Heck, could the device perhaps generate the
> h.264 files directly from the recording files themselves? A sort of
> hardware transcode engine?

Thanks to the OP for posting, and to Yeechang for the above.

I am very happy to hear that devs in the Linux community have access to
this piece of hardware. I am definitely looking forward to buying two of
them - one to keep as a backup for the time after the content Nazis find a
way to bully the government into making them illegal (said only somewhat
tongue-in-cheek). Not only that, I feel that Hauppauge will a boatload of
these in the first wave...I bought some stock in the company. ;-)

Bob
--
________________________________________
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http://www.malibyte.net
http://www.malibyte.com

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beww at beww

Feb 28, 2008, 2:56 PM

Post #2 of 14 (1621 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

On Feb 28, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Bob Sully wrote:

>
> I am very happy to hear that devs in the Linux community have access
> to
> this piece of hardware. I am definitely looking forward to buying
> two of
> them - one to keep as a backup for the time after the content Nazis
> find a
> way to bully the government into making them illegal (said only
> somewhat
> tongue-in-cheek). Not only that, I feel that Hauppauge will a
> boatload of
> these in the first wave...I bought some stock in the company. ;-)

I think you are over-estimating the awareness of the typical consumer.
Myth users pretty much all recognize the value of the device, but I
suspect the average consumer will not perceive the difference between
it and all the other pretty boxes on the shelf next to it at
Circuitous City. They will notice that it costs more than a lot of the
others, which seem to them to do the same thing.

So the question is how do the numbers of "aware" MythTV users vs. the
number of typical consumers.

I'd really like to know how many PVRs that Hauppauge sold went into
Myth systems as opposed to Windows boxes.

BTW - I'm concerned that the content Nazis will have their way before
the device is released. I suspect some restrictions on the device at
the least.

beww

beww

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masterclc at gmail

Feb 28, 2008, 8:29 PM

Post #3 of 14 (1610 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

[SNIP]

> So the question is how do the numbers of "aware" MythTV users vs. the
> number of typical consumers.

I would think that by proxy the number of aware "Linux" (not just
Myth, but any PVR-ish system) users is very high for the market. I
know that a minimum of 250 people (I think I could even name nearly
all of them) would ask me which "device" they should buy regarding
"capturing" video from device X (maybe a DVD player, maybe an
HD-Receiver, maybe a VCR...). So although not every one of them view
MythTV as the ultimate solution as I do, they do consider me the
"expert" and take my advise (usually :D ) when the topic comes up.

> I'd really like to know how many PVRs that Hauppauge sold went into
> Myth systems as opposed to Windows boxes.

The same somewhat holds true here. Without Linux support, the
(estimated) 250 peole wouldn't be getting the recommendation to
purchase the card (regardless of which platform they are looking to
use it on). So although the customers may be using these on Windows
based systems, they wouldn't even have purchased them in the first
place if a Linux user hadn't recommended it.

A better example is Nvidia. How many of us are IT professionals in
organizations that support 1000+ workstations/desktops? I would
assume a good portion of us are, and when it comes to making a
decision on which video card to put into those systems, I know that
several times we have had ATI as a default option and instead opted
for Nvidia simply because of our experience of using the cards on
Linux. The workstations will likely never run Linux (at least the
majority of them inside the labs) and yet the influence Nvidia has
because of their ability to provide us with what we need in the Linux
world just gained them an additional 1000 sales, by providing Linux
drivers to 1 or 2 IT people.

> BTW - I'm concerned that the content Nazis will have their way before
> the device is released. I suspect some restrictions on the device at
> the least.

Indeed! Hopefully Hauppauge will be strong enough to say these words:
"!%!#$% !#$%!#%$" (translate them to your liking)

> beww

-Chad
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Feb 28, 2008, 10:23 PM

Post #4 of 14 (1602 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

On 02/28/2008 04:07 PM, Josh White wrote:
> Fair enough, but it's hard to solve a problem that isn't apparent to the one
> causing it. In Gmail, the "quoted text" is generally hidden, and all you
> have is what's new from the new post. The previous post is shown above,
> since it's the last message, so regardless of whether someone top posts or
> not, it looks fine to me.

Yeah. We on this list are still using e-mail. We haven't switched to
Google's new "standard" that tries to change the way e-mail works... ;)

Mike

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st3v3.sm1th at gmail

Feb 29, 2008, 7:27 AM

Post #5 of 14 (1588 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

On 29/02/2008, Michael T. Dean <mtdean[at]thirdcontact.com> wrote:
> On 02/28/2008 04:07 PM, Josh White wrote:
> > Fair enough, but it's hard to solve a problem that isn't apparent to the one
> > causing it. In Gmail, the "quoted text" is generally hidden, and all you
> > have is what's new from the new post. The previous post is shown above,
> > since it's the last message, so regardless of whether someone top posts or
> > not, it looks fine to me.
>
> Yeah. We on this list are still using e-mail. We haven't switched to
> Google's new "standard" that tries to change the way e-mail works... ;)
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

Really, that's interesting are Google trying to change the way e-mail
works? That smacks of the sort of thing
MS allegedly got up to... (I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, are
Google really trying to fiddle with email? If so I'd definetely be
against it)
Personally, I really like the way the Gmail web client works,
especially for mailing lists like this one. Its threading abilities
are really very good.
Took a bit of getting used to at first, but now I really miss Gmail's
threading when I use other email clients.
Anyway this is waaaaaaaay OT.
Cheers

Steve
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jacob at steenhagen

Feb 29, 2008, 7:48 AM

Post #6 of 14 (1596 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Michael T. Dean <mtdean[at]thirdcontact.com>
wrote:

> On 02/28/2008 04:07 PM, Josh White wrote:
> > Fair enough, but it's hard to solve a problem that isn't apparent to the
> one
> > causing it. In Gmail, the "quoted text" is generally hidden, and all
> you
> > have is what's new from the new post. The previous post is shown above,
> > since it's the last message, so regardless of whether someone top posts
> or
> > not, it looks fine to me.
>
> Yeah. We on this list are still using e-mail. We haven't switched to
> Google's new "standard" that tries to change the way e-mail works... ;)
>

Speak for yourself, I switched to the Google standard a few months back. It
was easier than continuing to support an email server running on a DSL
connection :).

But I do try to still realize when I'm posting to a mailing list and trim
appropriately.

--
http://jacob.steenhagen.us

drescherjm at gmail

Feb 29, 2008, 8:01 AM

Post #7 of 14 (1594 views)
Permalink

Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

> Yeah. We on this list are still using e-mail. We haven't switched to
> Google's new "standard" that tries to change the way e-mail works... ;)
>
Its a lot better than how Outlook works. When I use that at work the
software makes it difficult to bottom post and so every one top posts
and I get people confused when I bottom post...

John
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ylee at pobox

Feb 29, 2008, 9:15 AM

Post #8 of 14 (1592 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

Mitch Gore <mitchell.gore[at]gmail.com> says:
> Does any one know does the HD PVR mux in the digital audio via coax
> or optical?

Yes. Start at
<URL:http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/309471#309471>.

--
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Feb 29, 2008, 12:17 PM

Post #9 of 14 (1586 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

On 02/29/2008 01:24 PM, Matt S. wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 1:18 AM, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>
>> On 02/28/2008 04:18 PM, Yeechang Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed. A 9Mbps PBS 1080i stream (4GB/hour) is surely simpler to
>>> process than a 19.2Mbps 1080i stream (7.5-8GB/hour), however. Despite
>>> the stated 25Mbps limit of the hardware encoder, I certainly look
>>> forward to future examples at higher bitrates.
>>>
>> I look forward to the day when more broadcasters actually use higher
>> bitrates... Here, only CW and NBC use such a high bitrate.
> Doesn't CBS broadcast in 1080i too? I thought only Fox and ABC used 720p?

Yep. Around here, CBS, MyTV, and PBS all do 1080i, but at a bitrate
closer to 15 Mbps (around 6.5 GiB/hr). There are noticeable low-bitrate
effects (such as blockiness) in some parts of shows (especially in
fast-moving scenes). Note that some of these could even be fixed at the
selected bitrate using a better (= more time-consuming = more expensive)
encoding process. By using a higher bitrate, some of these encoding
defects can be eliminated without modifying the encoding process.

Fox and ABC are both doing 720p, but (here, at least) use about 10Mbps
(about 4 GiB/hr).

Mike
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Feb 29, 2008, 12:19 PM

Post #10 of 14 (1588 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

On 02/29/2008 02:55 PM, Chad wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Chris Ribe wrote:
> [SNIP]
>
>> I'm sure the many people stuck
>> with an SDTV and a digital tuner that doesn't downscale appreciate this.
> All 3 of them...

But I thought only one of them lived in Florida. The other 2 were out
of state. :)

Mike
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rkulagow at gmail

Feb 29, 2008, 12:19 PM

Post #11 of 14 (1587 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

Chris Ribe wrote:
>
>
> > I look forward to the day when more broadcasters actually use higher
> > bitrates... Here, only CW and NBC use such a high bitrate.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Doesn't CBS broadcast in 1080i too? I thought only Fox and ABC used
> 720p?
>
>
> Bitrate, not resolution. For example, here at WCJB-TV in sunny
> Gainesville, Florida, we use our 19.2 Mbits to broadcast 2 program
> streams. One is ABC, which is broadcast at 720p , and one is the CW,
> which is broadcast in a 480i format.
>
> Before these signals leave the building, they are joined together in a
> muxer - a fancy computer that takes one HD-SDI video signal, one SDI
> video signal, and puts out a single SMPTE 310 signal, which is a fancy
> name for baseband ATSC, I believe.
>
> Anyhow, the muxer tries to squeeze as much video quality into the 19.2
> Mbits as it can, and it dynamically reapportions bandwidth between the 2
> program streams. When all is said and done, the CW usually ends up with
> about 5 Mbits and ABC gets about 12.5 Mbits. I honestly do not know
> what happens to the other 1,700,000 bits per second.
>
> The end result is that the CW looks quite good, an ABC does not. Our
> neighbors at WUFT, the University of Florida PBS station, do things a
> little differently. They have 3 program streams, one which is usually
> 1080i and two standard def. The give their HD channel about 14 Mbit and
> squeeze their SD channels into about 2 Mbit apiece.

Since you're a TV/IT engineer, and apparently have something to do with
ABC, can you please look at the "Funky 720p" thread in -dev?

ABC seems to be doing weird things with their ATSC programming, and at
first all of the responders to the thread were in Chicago, but we just
got a datapoint for someone who's down in Texas, so it may be more
prevalent.
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w.munson at comcast

Mar 1, 2008, 4:12 AM

Post #12 of 14 (1549 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

> --
> TV/IT Engineer
> WCJB-TV Gainesville, FL
> (352) 416 0648
> cribe[at]wcjb.com <mailto:cribe[at]wcjb.com>

Good to see that there is another mythtv user here in Gainesville. My
myth system resides in Melrose as do I when not living at work :)

Now if I can just get the cable company to turn off the 5C (copy once
flag) on a couple of the local HD broadcast channels I would be happier
and would be able to capture them via firewire like the rest of the locals.

Bill

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george_mythusers at mari1938

Mar 1, 2008, 7:02 AM

Post #13 of 14 (1543 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

Robert Kulagowski wrote:
> Chris Ribe wrote:
>>
>> > I look forward to the day when more broadcasters actually use higher
>> > bitrates... Here, only CW and NBC use such a high bitrate.
>> >
>> > Mike
>>
>> Doesn't CBS broadcast in 1080i too? I thought only Fox and ABC used
>> 720p?
>>

[deleted]

>
> Since you're a TV/IT engineer, and apparently have something to do with
> ABC, can you please look at the "Funky 720p" thread in -dev?
>
> ABC seems to be doing weird things with their ATSC programming, and at
> first all of the responders to the thread were in Chicago, but we just
> got a datapoint for someone who's down in Texas, so it may be more
> prevalent.
> _______________________________________________

I'm not recording HD with MythTv yet, but I am in the Chicago area, and
I remembered about a month or so ago, a post on the AVSForum Chicago OTA
thread about WLS-DT switching to a new encoder for their broadcasts, and
this apparently caused problems for people with older ATSC receivers.

There was a post for the phone number at WLS-DT as well:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12853150#post12853150

Phone is 312-750-7592, according to that post, in case anyone is
interested in trying to contact their engineers.

I know you mentioned the problem seems to have spread beyond Chicago,
but maybe stations if different markets are doing the same thing to the
broadcast?
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gull at gull

Mar 1, 2008, 11:24 PM

Post #14 of 14 (1540 views)
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Re: Hauppauge HD PVR (A bit more info for those starved for it) [In reply to]

John Drescher wrote:
> The problem (besides the backlash from other Outlook users for bottom
> posting) is in the html / rich text sure you can position it at the
> bottom easy but there is no clear indication who wrote what.

Good point. I forgot about that issue. I happily haven't had to use
Outlook in quite a while.

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