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AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore

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mythtv at nosolutions

Feb 13, 2008, 9:12 PM

Post #1 of 55 (4130 views)
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AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore

Hey Everyone,

Looking to update my system and am running into some problems. I'm
currently using an old full ATX P4 motherboard, that has 6 PCI slots.
I've got all the stuff to do an Socket AM2 system except the motherboard.

Since I have 4 capture cards, a serial port card, and an IDE controller
card, I need to have those 6 slots. In fact, I would love 7, since I want
to add another SATA card to do another RAID array. However, the most I
can find on any AM2 board is 4. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Ben

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david at thegeorges

Feb 13, 2008, 9:46 PM

Post #2 of 55 (4056 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

On 2/14/2008 12:12 AM, Ben Curtis wrote:
> Hey Everyone,
>
> Looking to update my system and am running into some problems. I'm
> currently using an old full ATX P4 motherboard, that has 6 PCI slots.
> I've got all the stuff to do an Socket AM2 system except the motherboard.
>
> Since I have 4 capture cards, a serial port card, and an IDE controller
> card, I need to have those 6 slots. In fact, I would love 7, since I want
> to add another SATA card to do another RAID array. However, the most I
> can find on any AM2 board is 4. Any ideas?
>

Well, if building another backend and moving some of your capture
cards/drives there isn't an option you could use a socket AM2 SBC like
this one I found with google:
http://www.mpi.ch/products/industrial_computers/single_board_computer/full_size_board_sbc/ipcie690am2.html
. Then put it in a rack mount box with an active backplane like one of
these: http://www.mpi.ch/index.php?id=200 . I've seen PCI backplanes
with up to 14 PCI slots. Not sure where you live this site isn't in the
US, but if you look I am sure you can find an equivalent (I just went to
the first link google returned).

HTH,
--
David

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drescherjm at gmail

Feb 14, 2008, 4:15 AM

Post #3 of 55 (4030 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

> Well, if building another backend and moving some of your capture
> cards/drives there isn't an option you could use a socket AM2 SBC like
> this one I found with google:
> http://www.mpi.ch/products/industrial_computers/single_board_computer/full_size_board_sbc/ipcie690am2.html
> . Then put it in a rack mount box with an active backplane like one of
> these: http://www.mpi.ch/index.php?id=200 . I've seen PCI backplanes
> with up to 14 PCI slots. Not sure where you live this site isn't in the
> US, but if you look I am sure you can find an equivalent (I just went to
> the first link google returned).
>
Looks good but I can guarantee it will be cheaper to buy 2 (or 3)
machines than that especially because you can easily make AM2 systems
for less than $300.

John
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ron at ronfrazier

Feb 14, 2008, 5:01 AM

Post #4 of 55 (4036 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

> Since I have 4 capture cards, a serial port card, and an IDE controller
> card, I need to have those 6 slots.

Sorry, I can't find you anything like that. The best I can do is 5 slots:
http://www.motherboards.org/mobot/motherboards_d/ASRock/AM2NF3-VSTA/
http://www.motherboards.org/mobot/motherboards_d/Jetway/M2GT6-PTD/

Perhaps you can lose the serial port card. I have seen serveral USB
serial port emulators. For example:
http://sewelldirect.com/usbtoserial.asp

I've never looked into the details, so I don't know how transparent it
is, whether it works under linux, etc, but it's worth looking into.
They are relatively inexpensive (I believe I've seen them for $6 or
so...probably on ebay). And going forward, it's probably only going to
get harder to find motherboards with lots of slots, so you might have
to migrate away from the PCI cards anyway.

Actually...I should have asked this first, but how many serial ports
do you need? If just one, you are aware that most motherboards still
have a single serial port header, right?

--
Ron
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beww at beww

Feb 14, 2008, 7:45 AM

Post #5 of 55 (4047 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Ronald Frazier wrote:
>> Since I have 4 capture cards, a serial port card, and an IDE controller
>> card, I need to have those 6 slots.
>
> Sorry, I can't find you anything like that. The best I can do is 5 slots:
> http://www.motherboards.org/mobot/motherboards_d/ASRock/AM2NF3-VSTA/
> http://www.motherboards.org/mobot/motherboards_d/Jetway/M2GT6-PTD/
>
> Perhaps you can lose the serial port card. I have seen serveral USB
> serial port emulators. For example:
> http://sewelldirect.com/usbtoserial.asp
>
> I've never looked into the details, so I don't know how transparent it
> is, whether it works under linux, etc, but it's worth looking into.
> They are relatively inexpensive (I believe I've seen them for $6 or
> so...probably on ebay). And going forward, it's probably only going to
> get harder to find motherboards with lots of slots, so you might have
> to migrate away from the PCI cards anyway.
>
> Actually...I should have asked this first, but how many serial ports
> do you need? If just one, you are aware that most motherboards still
> have a single serial port header, right?
>

Remember that if you are using a serial port for an LIRC-type IR blaster
you can't use a USB-to-Serial adapter, even if the adapter "works" under
Linux.

This is because the blaster uses the serial port in a non-standard way.
It uses one or more handshaking lines to drive the blaster LED, and
doesn't even use the tx/rx lines.

beww

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ron at ronfrazier

Feb 14, 2008, 8:43 AM

Post #6 of 55 (4018 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
> Remember that if you are using a serial port for an LIRC-type IR blaster
> you can't use a USB-to-Serial adapter, even if the adapter "works" under
> Linux.
>
> This is because the blaster uses the serial port in a non-standard way.
> It uses one or more handshaking lines to drive the blaster LED, and
> doesn't even use the tx/rx lines.

Interesting. I had no idea those IR devices worked like that, or that
those adapters weren't true serial ports either. I've seen other
devices besides those adapter cables...thing in the form of a box that
had multiple (as many as 4) serial ports. I wonder if those suffer the
same problem or if they do a true emulation.

Well. Those 2 motherboards also had a 1x PCI express slot, so maybe
getting a new adapter card would be an option (though again, drivers
may be a problem).

--
Ron
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beww at beww

Feb 14, 2008, 8:56 AM

Post #7 of 55 (4022 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Ronald Frazier wrote:

>
> Interesting. I had no idea those IR devices worked like that, or that
> those adapters weren't true serial ports either. I've seen other
> devices besides those adapter cables...thing in the form of a box that
> had multiple (as many as 4) serial ports. I wonder if those suffer the
> same problem or if they do a true emulation.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "true" serial port. A USB-Serial adapter
can be used for any application that meets the RS-232 spec, assuming you
have good drivers for the adapter. It's the blasters that are not "true"
serial devices.

The multi-serial adapters that I have seen are also "true" serial
devices in that they meet the RS-232 spec. Some use RJ type connectors,
and some have external dongles as you mentioned. They were common back
when we often used modem banks or terminal servers, they're not so
common now.

A lot of modern motherboards have only a single serial port, and a lot
of Myth systems need more (for example controlling more than one
DirectTV box).

Actually, RS-232C specifies two separate serial ports in one DB-25
connector, but that configuration is rarely seen on a PC (it was
standard on Sun machines). Normally on a mobo you see only one port on a
DB-9.

beww
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yan at seiner

Feb 14, 2008, 9:05 AM

Post #8 of 55 (4031 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Brian Wood
> Ronald Frazier wrote:
>
>>
>> Interesting. I had no idea those IR devices worked like that, or that
>> those adapters weren't true serial ports either. I've seen other
>> devices besides those adapter cables...thing in the form of a box that
>> had multiple (as many as 4) serial ports. I wonder if those suffer the
>> same problem or if they do a true emulation.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by a "true" serial port. A USB-Serial adapter
> can be used for any application that meets the RS-232 spec, assuming you
> have good drivers for the adapter. It's the blasters that are not "true"
> serial devices.

Not quite.... You cannot toggle the RTS/DSR lines directly. This messes
up some devices that need a specific timed handshake with those lines.
LIRC with the homebrew serial receiver uses the CD line (IIRC) to sense
the IR signals and it needs precise timing of those signals. Thus it
won't work on the USB serial ports.

> The multi-serial adapters that I have seen are also "true" serial
> devices in that they meet the RS-232 spec. Some use RJ type connectors,
> and some have external dongles as you mentioned. They were common back
> when we often used modem banks or terminal servers, they're not so
> common now.

Many of them leave off DSR/CTS/CD/etc lines; opting instead for just 3
lines: Send, Receive, and Ground.

(This is a bit of a peeve of mine since I spent a couple of years working
around devices that *required* an AT keyboard or a timed signal on the RTS
line to reset. Both are hard to come by when all you have in the field is
a laptop and a USB serial port....)

--
Windows is like a canary in a coal mine, it's the first thing to die on
your network.

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ron at ronfrazier

Feb 14, 2008, 9:07 AM

Post #9 of 55 (4014 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

> I'm not sure what you mean by a "true" serial port. A USB-Serial adapter
> can be used for any application that meets the RS-232 spec, assuming you
> have good drivers for the adapter. It's the blasters that are not "true"
> serial devices.

Well, if it doesn't behave the way a serial port on the motherboard
would, then I'd say it's not a "true" serial port. Granted these
blasters may or may not be outside the spec of what a serial port is
SUPPOSED too do. However, every onboard serial port I've ever toyed
with has behaved the same way (my lirc IR device works the same on my
brand new computer as it did on my 10 year old computer). It would
seem to me that such broad "out-of-spec" compatibility doesn't happen
by accident. I would suspect the serial port standard goes beyond
simple RS-232 compatability (but I'm just speculating...I have no idea
what sort of standards actually exist for that)

--
Ron
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beww at beww

Feb 14, 2008, 9:09 AM

Post #10 of 55 (4018 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Yan Seiner wrote:

>
> Not quite.... You cannot toggle the RTS/DSR lines directly. This messes
> up some devices that need a specific timed handshake with those lines.
> LIRC with the homebrew serial receiver uses the CD line (IIRC) to sense
> the IR signals and it needs precise timing of those signals. Thus it
> won't work on the USB serial ports.

Correct. I was thinking that I had seen blasters that worked with a USB
adapter, but now that I think about it those were the "MyBlaster" units
that used the serial port in a standard manner and did not depend on
computer-generated timings.

Sadly, I believe those blasters are no longer available (at least not new).

beww
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yan at seiner

Feb 14, 2008, 9:19 AM

Post #11 of 55 (4016 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Ronald Frazier
>> I'm not sure what you mean by a "true" serial port. A USB-Serial
>> adapter
>> can be used for any application that meets the RS-232 spec, assuming
>> you
>> have good drivers for the adapter. It's the blasters that are not
>> "true"
>> serial devices.
>
> Well, if it doesn't behave the way a serial port on the motherboard
> would, then I'd say it's not a "true" serial port. Granted these
> blasters may or may not be outside the spec of what a serial port is
> SUPPOSED too do. However, every onboard serial port I've ever toyed
> with has behaved the same way (my lirc IR device works the same on my
> brand new computer as it did on my 10 year old computer). It would
> seem to me that such broad "out-of-spec" compatibility doesn't happen
> by accident. I would suspect the serial port standard goes beyond
> simple RS-232 compatability (but I'm just speculating...I have no idea
> what sort of standards actually exist for that)

Basically LIRC uses the serial port as GPIO (general purpose IO) rather
than a serial port, as it doesn't use the send/receive lines at all.

Instead it draws power from one pin, and strobes another pin (I think this
is the Carrier Detect pin, which is a part of the spec.)

Since the CD is part of the spec, it works with most serial ports as most
hardware ports implement CD. Many software ports do not (yes there are
ports that use software to emulate the hardware.)

--Yan

--
Windows is like a canary in a coal mine, it's the first thing to die on
your network.

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beww at beww

Feb 14, 2008, 9:23 AM

Post #12 of 55 (4015 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Yan Seiner wrote:

> Basically LIRC uses the serial port as GPIO (general purpose IO) rather
> than a serial port, as it doesn't use the send/receive lines at all.
>
> Instead it draws power from one pin, and strobes another pin (I think this
> is the Carrier Detect pin, which is a part of the spec.)
>
> Since the CD is part of the spec, it works with most serial ports as most
> hardware ports implement CD. Many software ports do not (yes there are
> ports that use software to emulate the hardware.)

Even the software ports that do implement all of the handshaking lines
they often have enough delay or lag that they cause things like LIRC to
not work, even though the port "works" for a more normal serial application.

That's why an LIRC blaster is a "hack", though its been a very
successful one.

beww
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rkulagow at gmail

Feb 14, 2008, 9:25 AM

Post #13 of 55 (4021 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

> Correct. I was thinking that I had seen blasters that worked with a USB
> adapter, but now that I think about it those were the "MyBlaster" units
> that used the serial port in a standard manner and did not depend on
> computer-generated timings.
>
> Sadly, I believe those blasters are no longer available (at least not new).

http://www.commandir.com/mini/applications

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beww at beww

Feb 14, 2008, 9:39 AM

Post #14 of 55 (4017 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Robert Kulagowski wrote:
>> Correct. I was thinking that I had seen blasters that worked with a USB
>> adapter, but now that I think about it those were the "MyBlaster" units
>> that used the serial port in a standard manner and did not depend on
>> computer-generated timings.
>>
>> Sadly, I believe those blasters are no longer available (at least not new).
>
> http://www.commandir.com/mini/applications

Interesting. This is not the "MyBlaster", which did not require LIRC and
could be driven by a perl script directly. The MyBlaster had the
"smarts" in it, so it actually generated the IR codes and timing and had
a pretty good list of them internally. It could also learn in case you
needed to control something it didn't know about out of the box.

But this looks like a good solution to needing multiple emitters, not
having a serial port, and the price seems reasonable.

Thanks for the pointer.

beww

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rkulagow at gmail

Feb 14, 2008, 10:39 AM

Post #15 of 55 (4016 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Brian Wood wrote:
> Robert Kulagowski wrote:
>>> Correct. I was thinking that I had seen blasters that worked with a USB
>>> adapter, but now that I think about it those were the "MyBlaster" units
>>> that used the serial port in a standard manner and did not depend on
>>> computer-generated timings.
>>>
>>> Sadly, I believe those blasters are no longer available (at least not new).
>> http://www.commandir.com/mini/applications
>
> Interesting. This is not the "MyBlaster", which did not require LIRC and
> could be driven by a perl script directly. The MyBlaster had the
> "smarts" in it, so it actually generated the IR codes and timing and had
> a pretty good list of them internally. It could also learn in case you
> needed to control something it didn't know about out of the box.
>
> But this looks like a good solution to needing multiple emitters, not
> having a serial port, and the price seems reasonable.

Don't have one, not affiliated with them in any way, but I think they
also embed smarts so that it can just a command hand-off from the host
and do what it needs to do.
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awithers at anduin

Feb 14, 2008, 11:45 AM

Post #16 of 55 (4024 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

> http://www.commandir.com/mini/applications

If you need to control fewer than four devices, an MCE remote kit supported
by LIRC would be cheaper, some even come with two IR ports and retail for
about $30 USD.

--
Anduin Withers

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mythtv at nosolutions

Feb 14, 2008, 5:36 PM

Post #17 of 55 (4001 views)
Permalink

Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Thanks for the help guys. I had considered a seperate machine to run
mythbackend on, then a second machine that is my main server. I guess the
backend doesn't really need the added advantage of the speed of the RAID.

If the backend was on a machine with an old HD, and used 100MBit network
to access a server with RAID, would that be enough speed? At most, I
could be capturing 2 HD streams, 2 SD streams, and then streaming 2 HD
streams out to frontends. That would be worst case scenario. If not
100Mbit, what about Gigabit?

Ben

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myth at dermanouelian

Feb 14, 2008, 5:40 PM

Post #18 of 55 (3998 views)
Permalink

Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

On Feb 14, 2008, at 5:36 PM, Ben Curtis wrote:

> Thanks for the help guys. I had considered a seperate machine to run
> mythbackend on, then a second machine that is my main server. I
> guess the
> backend doesn't really need the added advantage of the speed of the
> RAID.
>
> If the backend was on a machine with an old HD, and used 100MBit
> network
> to access a server with RAID, would that be enough speed? At most, I
> could be capturing 2 HD streams, 2 SD streams, and then streaming 2 HD
> streams out to frontends. That would be worst case scenario. If not
> 100Mbit, what about Gigabit?

Go with gigabit. I don't think 100 megabit can handle 4 HD streams. I
was getting playback stuttering with my HDHomeRun capturing 2 streams
and playing 1 back until I upgraded it all to gigabit.
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cal at graggrag

Feb 14, 2008, 6:03 PM

Post #19 of 55 (3992 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

mythtv at nosolutions

Feb 14, 2008, 6:47 PM

Post #20 of 55 (4000 views)
Permalink

Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Hmmm... Well, I don't use the serial ports for blasters, I've made Serial
to RJ11 jacks to control RCA receivers. I did find this motherboard,
which has 3 pci's and 6 on board SATA controllers. If I dropped down to
one standard def capture, or used a USB one, and a USB to Serial adapter,
this could work. It also supports AM2, so I could upgrade to a Phenom in
the future.

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131022

Ben

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beww at beww

Feb 14, 2008, 7:08 PM

Post #21 of 55 (3997 views)
Permalink

Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Ben Curtis wrote:
> Hmmm... Well, I don't use the serial ports for blasters, I've made Serial
> to RJ11 jacks to control RCA receivers. I did find this motherboard,
> which has 3 pci's and 6 on board SATA controllers. If I dropped down to
> one standard def capture, or used a USB one, and a USB to Serial adapter,
> this could work. It also supports AM2, so I could upgrade to a Phenom in
> the future.
>
> http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131022

Wouldn't it be nice if someone made something useful to put in those
PCIExpress x1 slots ?

beww
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drescherjm at gmail

Feb 14, 2008, 7:22 PM

Post #22 of 55 (4001 views)
Permalink

Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 9:03 PM, cal <cal [at] graggrag> wrote:
> Ronald Frazier wrote:
> >> Since I have 4 capture cards, a serial port card, and an IDE controller
> >> card, I need to have those 6 slots.
> >
> > Sorry, I can't find you anything like that. The best I can do is 5 slots:
> > http://www.motherboards.org/mobot/motherboards_d/ASRock/AM2NF3-VSTA/
> > http://www.motherboards.org/mobot/motherboards_d/Jetway/M2GT6-PTD/
>
> Slightly off topic, but I'm moved to comment on the Asrock AM2NF3-VSTA...
>
> Don't go there!
>
My advice is to stay very far away from ASROCK, FOXCONN, and ECS.

Your best results with AMD cpus will be with asus for desktops and
TYAN for servers. This comes from experience, I have put together
nearly 100 amd systems.

Also try to avoid motherboards with chipset fans. That is my only
complaint for asus. I have seen at least 25% of the chipset fans in my
department die in 1 to 2 years of 24/7 usage.

John
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caldodge at gmail

Feb 14, 2008, 7:27 PM

Post #23 of 55 (4005 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 8:22 PM, John Drescher <drescherjm [at] gmail> wrote:
> Your best results with AMD cpus will be with asus for desktops and

Asus is my first choice, too.

> Also try to avoid motherboards with chipset fans. That is my only
> complaint for asus. I have seen at least 25% of the chipset fans in my
> department die in 1 to 2 years of 24/7 usage.

Amen to that. I've replaced all mine with Zalman chipset heat sinks.

Calvin
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match at ece

Feb 14, 2008, 8:31 PM

Post #24 of 55 (3991 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

On 14 Feb 2008 at 20:27, Calvin Dodge wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 8:22 PM, John Drescher <drescherjm [at] gmail> wrote:
> > Your best results with AMD cpus will be with asus for desktops and
>
> Asus is my first choice, too.
>
> > Also try to avoid motherboards with chipset fans. That is my only
> > complaint for asus. I have seen at least 25% of the chipset fans in my
> > department die in 1 to 2 years of 24/7 usage.
>
> Amen to that. I've replaced all mine with Zalman chipset heat sinks.
>
> Calvin

Agreed. I'm fond of Asus, but for a seamingly high quality product,
they appear to go out of their way to use the cheapest, most short-
lived fans they can find these days. It's not a matter of if, but
rather when that fan will become noisy and then die completely. I
built 78 workstations for work with ASUS AMD boards a while back and
the fans started failing at only 3 months! In a year they were ALL
trash. These were desktop machines that ran only 6-ish hours a day on
average.

Unfortunately, as often as not the aftermarket chipset heatsinks
won't fit without sacrificing a card slot, or interfering with the
DVD drive, or interfering with something else on the board, or some
such, so your stuck when the darned thing quits. I've since replaced
them all with fanless INTEL mobos.

Personally, I've sworn off fans as much as possible, and NEVER accept
chipset fans these days. If it has a fan, I don't buy it, no matter
how good a choice the board seems to be otherwise. I've learned my
lesson.

Marvin

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fairlane at springcom

Feb 14, 2008, 8:52 PM

Post #25 of 55 (3985 views)
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Re: AM2 Motherboard with PCI slots galore [In reply to]

Ben Curtis wrote:
> Thanks for the help guys. I had considered a seperate machine to run
> mythbackend on, then a second machine that is my main server. I guess the
> backend doesn't really need the added advantage of the speed of the RAID.
>
> If the backend was on a machine with an old HD, and used 100MBit network
> to access a server with RAID, would that be enough speed? At most, I
> could be capturing 2 HD streams, 2 SD streams, and then streaming 2 HD
> streams out to frontends. That would be worst case scenario. If not
> 100Mbit, what about Gigabit?
>
>
> Ben
>
How about a PCI expansion chassis? One card on your motherboard, 7-13
pci slots on the chassis. Available surplus too.
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