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New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes?

  

 
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digitalaudiorock at gmail

Dec 20, 2007, 3:53 PM

Post #1 of 18 (3660 views)
Permalink
New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes?
Wow...check this announcement on the nVidia site:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104706

...especially this note:

"Improved support for interlaced DVI, HDMI, and HDTV modesetting."

I usually wait until the drivers hit Gentoo portage before installing
them, so I'm not sure when I'll get to try that.

My big question is just what that statement means about interlaced
DVI. I'm hoping this might actually mean a fix for the age old
interlace tearing issues, but they may just mean the issues with
built-in HD modes not working (requiring custom mode lines). the fact
that is specifically says 'modesetting' makes me leery that it may
only mean the latter.

If anyone gets to try it before me (especially those with interlaced
displays that currently have to use de-interlacing) please report
back.

Got my fingers crossed on that one. That'd be huge for sure.

Tom
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bryan.murphy at gmail

Dec 20, 2007, 4:09 PM

Post #2 of 18 (3576 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
My Mac Book Pro has an NVIDIA chipset. When I plugged it into my HD
CRT (via HDMI) it just worked and looked great. It's clearly possible
for the NVIDIA cards to output great video to an HDTV via HDMI.
NVIDIA just has to actually care, and so far my experience with the
NVIDIA TV-out on Linux has been that they don't really care.

Maybe this is the wind of change? Maybe not, I'm not holding my breath. :)

Bryan

On Dec 20, 2007 5:53 PM, Tom Dexter <digitalaudiorock[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow...check this announcement on the nVidia site:
>
> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104706
>
> ...especially this note:
>
> "Improved support for interlaced DVI, HDMI, and HDTV modesetting."
>
> I usually wait until the drivers hit Gentoo portage before installing
> them, so I'm not sure when I'll get to try that.
>
> My big question is just what that statement means about interlaced
> DVI. I'm hoping this might actually mean a fix for the age old
> interlace tearing issues, but they may just mean the issues with
> built-in HD modes not working (requiring custom mode lines). the fact
> that is specifically says 'modesetting' makes me leery that it may
> only mean the latter.
>
> If anyone gets to try it before me (especially those with interlaced
> displays that currently have to use de-interlacing) please report
> back.
>
> Got my fingers crossed on that one. That'd be huge for sure.
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
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digitalaudiorock at gmail

Dec 20, 2007, 4:34 PM

Post #3 of 18 (3589 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
On Dec 20, 2007 7:09 PM, Bryan Murphy <bryan.murphy[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> My Mac Book Pro has an NVIDIA chipset. When I plugged it into my HD
> CRT (via HDMI) it just worked and looked great. It's clearly possible
> for the NVIDIA cards to output great video to an HDTV via HDMI.
> NVIDIA just has to actually care, and so far my experience with the
> NVIDIA TV-out on Linux has been that they don't really care.
>
> Maybe this is the wind of change? Maybe not, I'm not holding my breath. :)
>
> Bryan
>
>

Yea...my understanding is the Windows drivers output 1080i to
interlaced displays just fine. I'm not holding my breath either. The
fact that nVidia has never even acknowledged the problem after
literally years of those tearing issues makes it hard for me to
believe they've fixed them.

Tom
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tom at redpepperracing

Dec 20, 2007, 5:31 PM

Post #4 of 18 (3582 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
Tom Dexter wrote:
> Wow...check this announcement on the nVidia site:
>
> If anyone gets to try it before me (especially those with interlaced
> displays that currently have to use de-interlacing) please report
> back.
>
I tried 169.04 last weekend and I couldn't even get an X screen to come
up. Hopefully 07 actually works.

Tom

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pebender at san

Dec 20, 2007, 8:10 PM

Post #5 of 18 (3569 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
Tom Dexter wrote:
> Wow...check this announcement on the nVidia site:
>
> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104706
>
> ...especially this note:
>
> "Improved support for interlaced DVI, HDMI, and HDTV modesetting."
>
> I usually wait until the drivers hit Gentoo portage before installing
> them, so I'm not sure when I'll get to try that.
>
> My big question is just what that statement means about interlaced
> DVI. I'm hoping this might actually mean a fix for the age old
> interlace tearing issues, but they may just mean the issues with
> built-in HD modes not working (requiring custom mode lines). the fact
> that is specifically says 'modesetting' makes me leery that it may
> only mean the latter.
>
> If anyone gets to try it before me (especially those with interlaced
> displays that currently have to use de-interlacing) please report
> back.
>
> Got my fingers crossed on that one. That'd be huge for sure.

Well, for me, this driver is definitely an improvement.

Previous drivers, including the 160.04 beta driver, have had problems
with mode lines. This is the first NVIDIA driver that has actually
worked with my 37" Sharp Aquos EDID mode lines. In addition, it is the
first time I have been able to get 1080i to work. For the fist time, I
can have MythTV automatically switch between 480i, 720p and 1080i.
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pebender at san

Dec 20, 2007, 8:11 PM

Post #6 of 18 (3581 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
Tom Lichti wrote:
> Tom Dexter wrote:
>> Wow...check this announcement on the nVidia site:
>>
>> If anyone gets to try it before me (especially those with interlaced
>> displays that currently have to use de-interlacing) please report
>> back.
>>
> I tried 169.04 last weekend and I couldn't even get an X screen to come
> up. Hopefully 07 actually works.

I had problems with the 169.04 beta driver, but the 169.07 has been great.
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mythtv.org at sethdaniel

Dec 20, 2007, 8:35 PM

Post #7 of 18 (3561 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 06:53:43PM -0500, Tom Dexter wrote:
> Wow...check this announcement on the nVidia site:
>
> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104706
>
> ...especially this note:
>
> "Improved support for interlaced DVI, HDMI, and HDTV modesetting."
>
> I usually wait until the drivers hit Gentoo portage before installing
> them, so I'm not sure when I'll get to try that.
>
> My big question is just what that statement means about interlaced
> DVI. I'm hoping this might actually mean a fix for the age old
> interlace tearing issues, but they may just mean the issues with
> built-in HD modes not working (requiring custom mode lines). the fact
> that is specifically says 'modesetting' makes me leery that it may
> only mean the latter.
>
> If anyone gets to try it before me (especially those with interlaced
> displays that currently have to use de-interlacing) please report
> back.

The EDID "1920x1080" resolution finally work. I no longer need to use
the custom mode I've been using since I built my mythbox nearly a year
ago.

However, I still need to apply the patch described here:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/281528 (discussion)
http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/2903 (direct link)

to get interlacing without tearing (I also need to use Bob deint).

I tried the new 169.07 w/o applying the above patch to the myth source
but no luck. With both Bob and w/o Bob I noticed tearing. Once I
applied the patch the tearing went away.

So, as far as I'm concerned, the new nVidia driver is an improvement,
but not quite perfect. :o)

--
seth /\ sethdaniel.org
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digitalaudiorock at gmail

Dec 21, 2007, 7:26 AM

Post #8 of 18 (3548 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
On Dec 20, 2007 11:35 PM, Seth Daniel <mythtv.org[at]sethdaniel.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 06:53:43PM -0500, Tom Dexter wrote:
> > Wow...check this announcement on the nVidia site:
> >
> > http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104706
> >
> > ...especially this note:
> >
> > "Improved support for interlaced DVI, HDMI, and HDTV modesetting."
> >
> > I usually wait until the drivers hit Gentoo portage before installing
> > them, so I'm not sure when I'll get to try that.
> >
> > My big question is just what that statement means about interlaced
> > DVI. I'm hoping this might actually mean a fix for the age old
> > interlace tearing issues, but they may just mean the issues with
> > built-in HD modes not working (requiring custom mode lines). the fact
> > that is specifically says 'modesetting' makes me leery that it may
> > only mean the latter.
> >
> > If anyone gets to try it before me (especially those with interlaced
> > displays that currently have to use de-interlacing) please report
> > back.
>
> The EDID "1920x1080" resolution finally work. I no longer need to use
> the custom mode I've been using since I built my mythbox nearly a year
> ago.
>
> However, I still need to apply the patch described here:
> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/281528 (discussion)
> http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/2903 (direct link)
>
> to get interlacing without tearing (I also need to use Bob deint).
>
> I tried the new 169.07 w/o applying the above patch to the myth source
> but no luck. With both Bob and w/o Bob I noticed tearing. Once I
> applied the patch the tearing went away.
>
> So, as far as I'm concerned, the new nVidia driver is an improvement,
> but not quite perfect. :o)
>
> --
> seth /\ sethdaniel.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

Damn...then I was right...they only fixed the mode handling and not
all the tearing issues. At this point I suspect they never will
either. I think they're just going to wait it out until nobody has
interlaced displays any more.

By the way...what you describe about getting tearing without that
patch is exactly what I'd expect. If you run with '-v playback'
wihtout the patch you'd see that it's just disabling bob as it thinks
you're refresh rate is half what it is, and you're running without any
de-interlacing at all.

Speaking of that patch, I'd still love to know why the frontend
reports 60Hz output as 30Hz when the output is interlaced....which is
what that patch changes. I posted a question to the dev list about it
some time ago and got no response:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/302387

All I know is that bob and that patch are a must-have for me, and
apparently will be for the foreseeable future.

Tom
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Dec 21, 2007, 7:37 AM

Post #9 of 18 (3547 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
On 12/21/2007 10:26 AM, Tom Dexter wrote:
> Speaking of that patch, I'd still love to know why the frontend
> reports 60Hz output as 30Hz when the output is interlaced....which is
> what that patch changes. I posted a question to the dev list about it
> some time ago and got no response:
>
> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/302387
>

1080i60 is 1920x1080 pixel frames shown at 30 frames per second. Each
frame is composed of 2 fields--each having half the number of lines of a
frame.

720p60 is 1280x720 pixel frames shown at 60 frames per second.

There is no such thing as 1080i120 or 1080p60 in the ATSC
specification. There is, however, 1080p30 and 1080p24, as well as
720p30 and 720p24.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

Mike

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digitalaudiorock at gmail

Dec 21, 2007, 8:52 AM

Post #10 of 18 (3548 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
On Dec 21, 2007 10:37 AM, Michael T. Dean <mtdean[at]thirdcontact.com> wrote:
> On 12/21/2007 10:26 AM, Tom Dexter wrote:
> > Speaking of that patch, I'd still love to know why the frontend
> > reports 60Hz output as 30Hz when the output is interlaced....which is
> > what that patch changes. I posted a question to the dev list about it
> > some time ago and got no response:
> >
> > http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/302387
> >
>
> 1080i60 is 1920x1080 pixel frames shown at 30 frames per second. Each
> frame is composed of 2 fields--each having half the number of lines of a
> frame.
>
> 720p60 is 1280x720 pixel frames shown at 60 frames per second.
>
> There is no such thing as 1080i120 or 1080p60 in the ATSC
> specification. There is, however, 1080p30 and 1080p24, as well as
> 720p30 and 720p24.
>
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html
>
> Mike
>

Maybe I'm missing something...you're talking about frame rates
correct? I was talking about the refresh rate.

The frontend reports a frame rate of 30 for 1080i60, which is correct,
and the patch we were referring to doesn't change that. However it
also reports a refresh rate of 30 rather than 60. Isn't supposed to
be 60, as in the 60 fields per second?

In any case, that reported refresh rate causes the frontend to
disallow bob de-interlacing when running at 1080i, which works
perfectly otherwise, and produces the best display of 1080i content I
can get by far. Seth will concur.

Tom
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halovanic at gmail

Dec 21, 2007, 9:05 AM

Post #11 of 18 (3549 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
> In any case, that reported refresh rate causes the frontend to
> disallow bob de-interlacing when running at 1080i, which works
> perfectly otherwise, and produces the best display of 1080i content I
> can get by far. Seth will concur.
>
> Tom


I concur as well, and this is also true with direct component out which should
be using the correct tv mode timings. The patch for the refresh rate also is
necessary for me to apply any 2x filters to any interlaced video, and it's
especially necessary for 480i broadcasts since those won't sync up very well
to a 1080i set without some deinterlacing. Really the only thing I've ever
noticed with the patch that might be a bug is that manually switching the
video playback to progressive from interlaced or autodetected interlace
causes the video to temporarily play at a funny rate and lose sync with the
audio for a few seconds before it corrects itself. Also, as has been
mentioned a million times, some versions of the patch have a "&&" instead of
the correct "&".

With the patch I was at one point even able to get completely correct synced
1080i output with no deinterlacing at all. The one problem was that myth was
only syncing to the top fields half the time, and the other half I would
either have to pause/restart the playback until by chance it got it right, or
set the video scan to reverse interlaced. Either way it stayed exactly in
sync (or exactly out of sync) through an entire program. I couldn't
duplicate the behavior without the framerate patch.


Alex
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derliebegott at gmail

Dec 23, 2007, 4:19 AM

Post #12 of 18 (3488 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
2007/12/21, Alex Halovanic <halovanic[at]gmail.com>:
> > In any case, that reported refresh rate causes the frontend to
> > disallow bob de-interlacing when running at 1080i, which works
> > perfectly otherwise, and produces the best display of 1080i content I
> > can get by far. Seth will concur.
> >
> > Tom
>
>
> I concur as well, and this is also true with direct component out which should
> be using the correct tv mode timings. The patch for the refresh rate also is
> necessary for me to apply any 2x filters to any interlaced video, and it's
> especially necessary for 480i broadcasts since those won't sync up very well
> to a 1080i set without some deinterlacing. Really the only thing I've ever
> noticed with the patch that might be a bug is that manually switching the
> video playback to progressive from interlaced or autodetected interlace
> causes the video to temporarily play at a funny rate and lose sync with the
> audio for a few seconds before it corrects itself. Also, as has been
> mentioned a million times, some versions of the patch have a "&&" instead of
> the correct "&".
>
> With the patch I was at one point even able to get completely correct synced
> 1080i output with no deinterlacing at all. The one problem was that myth was
> only syncing to the top fields half the time, and the other half I would
> either have to pause/restart the playback until by chance it got it right, or
> set the video scan to reverse interlaced. Either way it stayed exactly in
> sync (or exactly out of sync) through an entire program. I couldn't
> duplicate the behavior without the framerate patch.
>
>

I can also report that I see improvements. OSD is not flickering any
more. I also had minimal picture flickering on some shows. These
disappeared too.

SD with Standard decoder, xv-blit video renderer, softblend OSD
renderer (OSD Fade turned on). Primary Deinterlacer Bob (2x).
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mark.buechler at gmail

Dec 23, 2007, 6:20 AM

Post #13 of 18 (3485 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
As far as tearing goes, I don't know that it's any fault of NVidia drivers.
You probably need to enable sync to vblank in the nvidia settings. This is a
necessary option when you're updating the video buffer at the same time as
displaying it. If you don't update the buffer during the vblank interval,
you'll see parts of both the previous frame (the top portion of the screen)
and the next frame (the bottom portion) which results in a tearing effect.

- Mark.

On 12/23/07, Ma Begaj <derliebegott[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 2007/12/21, Alex Halovanic <halovanic[at]gmail.com>:
> > > In any case, that reported refresh rate causes the frontend to
> > > disallow bob de-interlacing when running at 1080i, which works
> > > perfectly otherwise, and produces the best display of 1080i content I
> > > can get by far. Seth will concur.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> >
> > I concur as well, and this is also true with direct component out which
> should
> > be using the correct tv mode timings. The patch for the refresh rate
> also is
> > necessary for me to apply any 2x filters to any interlaced video, and
> it's
> > especially necessary for 480i broadcasts since those won't sync up very
> well
> > to a 1080i set without some deinterlacing. Really the only thing I've
> ever
> > noticed with the patch that might be a bug is that manually switching
> the
> > video playback to progressive from interlaced or autodetected interlace
> > causes the video to temporarily play at a funny rate and lose sync with
> the
> > audio for a few seconds before it corrects itself. Also, as has been
> > mentioned a million times, some versions of the patch have a "&&"
> instead of
> > the correct "&".
> >
> > With the patch I was at one point even able to get completely correct
> synced
> > 1080i output with no deinterlacing at all. The one problem was that
> myth was
> > only syncing to the top fields half the time, and the other half I would
> > either have to pause/restart the playback until by chance it got it
> right, or
> > set the video scan to reverse interlaced. Either way it stayed exactly
> in
> > sync (or exactly out of sync) through an entire program. I couldn't
> > duplicate the behavior without the framerate patch.
> >
> >
>
> I can also report that I see improvements. OSD is not flickering any
> more. I also had minimal picture flickering on some shows. These
> disappeared too.
>
> SD with Standard decoder, xv-blit video renderer, softblend OSD
> renderer (OSD Fade turned on). Primary Deinterlacer Bob (2x).
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>


digitalaudiorock at gmail

Dec 23, 2007, 8:16 AM

Post #14 of 18 (3491 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
On Dec 23, 2007 9:20 AM, Mark Buechler <mark.buechler[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> As far as tearing goes, I don't know that it's any fault of NVidia drivers.
> You probably need to enable sync to vblank in the nvidia settings. This is a
> necessary option when you're updating the video buffer at the same time as
> displaying it. If you don't update the buffer during the vblank interval,
> you'll see parts of both the previous frame (the top portion of the screen)
> and the next frame (the bottom portion) which results in a tearing effect.
>
> - Mark.
>

I have that enabled. I'm assuming you don't have a 1080i interlaced
display. If you did you'd know that the tearing issues are very much
a problem with the nVidia driver and have been since one of there 8xxx
drivers years ago. Just search the archives for this list or the
nVidia linux forum. Without deinterlacing the video, it'll look great
for maybe 15 seconds and then drift out of since. Short of enabling
deinterlacing or managing to use one of their really old drivers (if
you can) there's no fix.

Some suspect it may be related to the fact that the nVidia driver
reports the RefreshRate as 60.05 when xorg reports it as 59.9.

Tom
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halovanic at gmail

Dec 23, 2007, 5:27 PM

Post #15 of 18 (3470 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
I think we're talking about two different kinds of tearing here. Mark is
referring to the kind where you get an effect similar to the bottom half of
the screen lagging behind the top half and during fast motion people appear
torn in half. What Tom is talking about is (I think) the kind where a person
appears to be cut up into lots of little horizontal strips, only half of
which match up with each other. The former can be fixed by proper sync
(whether xvideo, or opengl) and the latter either by fixing the refresh rate
(if the video and the display match up both in rate and vertical resolution)
or by deinterlacing.



Alex
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gaberubin at gmail

Dec 25, 2007, 3:38 PM

Post #16 of 18 (3435 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
I just installed the new 169.07 versioned driver (it is now on
atrpms), and 2 things I noticed:

1) it now accepts my 1080i mode (using a custom one that was never
accepted before)
2) all I get is a black screen when I try to play HD content, whether
using my 720p or 1080i mode

Because of #2, I can't use this new driver.
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mythtv at guiplot

Dec 25, 2007, 4:25 PM

Post #17 of 18 (3427 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
Gabe Rubin wrote:
> I just installed the new 169.07 versioned driver (it is now on
> atrpms), and 2 things I noticed:
>
> 1) it now accepts my 1080i mode (using a custom one that was never
> accepted before)
> 2) all I get is a black screen when I try to play HD content, whether
> using my 720p or 1080i mode
>
> Because of #2, I can't use this new driver.
>
Just in time... I downloaded and installed from nvidia.com last night.
Oh, well...

In order to build it, I had to upgrade my kernel as sources for my
kernel were no longer available. After upgrading kernel and installing
from Nvidia's .run file, I can view all content on my GeForce 7600 GS
(x86_64). I run a 17" DVI LCD monitor and a 37" VGA LCD TV (single
"display", dual screen, 2 desktops). All content plays fine on either.
What I did notice, however, was a long delay in VLC when I tried their
"Simple DirectMedia Layer" video output. It went to a black screen (as
you described) for about 30 seconds while I tried to find a way to kill
the process, then popped up full screen and played well. Took about as
long to get back to non-full screen where I turned the option off.

What improved for me after the upgrade was a problem I had watching
anything while my 2nd DVB card was recording. The recording would have
intermittent break-up. Watching while recording on my other DVB card
caused no problems and recordings made on either (or both) while NOT
watching anything came out fine, too. After this upgrade, that problem
is gone (YEA!!).

What did not improve is my lack of brightness/contrast/hue controls (no
video overlay). Drat! I'm running the 0.21-171_trunk_r14785.fc7
package. Anyone have any word on when/if we'll ever get that
functionality back?

Also, I used to run a 5200 with legacy drivers on my old AGP system.
With that system, not only did I have brightness/contrast controls, the
video overlay seemed to provide better overall video quality. What I
have now (several video cards later and still trying/hoping for
improvement to the quality of my 5200) seems to be a lower depth per
pixel; blocky, grainy pictures in low-light and subtle color gradient
screens. (Depth is set to 24 in xorg.conf). I'm still hoping for
Nvidia to get their "act" together, but about to try ATI again. I gave
up years ago on them, but Nvidia's dropping the video overlay and ATI's
being purchased by AMD are both factors that make me want to try again.

DaveD.

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gaberubin at gmail

Dec 25, 2007, 5:02 PM

Post #18 of 18 (3435 views)
Permalink
Re: New nVidia 169.07 and interlace changes? [In reply to]
I should mention a few other things, using 5200fx in an AGP slot,
driving the rear projector CRT with DVI -> HDMI cable.

When I do try to run hi-def content (and have not played all that much
with it), top repoorts mythfrontend at close to 100% (versus between
50-75% with the 100.14.19 version).

On Dec 25, 2007 3:38 PM, Gabe Rubin <gaberubin[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> I just installed the new 169.07 versioned driver (it is now on
> atrpms), and 2 things I noticed:
>
> 1) it now accepts my 1080i mode (using a custom one that was never
> accepted before)
> 2) all I get is a black screen when I try to play HD content, whether
> using my 720p or 1080i mode
>
> Because of #2, I can't use this new driver.
>
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