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cjdock at gmail

Sep 3, 2007, 7:41 AM

Post #1 of 182 (5095 views)
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tv guide line-up free

I've been looking at the mailing for about a week now and it would seem like
some of you super smart folks out their have come up with a way to get our
tv guide line ups for free.
What would be cool is if people reply to this email with either ideas or
scripts that have written to fix this problem. It's not that I'm against
paying for a service.....ok, that's a lie! I do want it free, there must be
a way!

david at segall

Sep 3, 2007, 8:33 AM

Post #2 of 182 (4987 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

Chuck Dock wrote:
> I've been looking at the mailing for about a week now and it would seem
> like some of you super smart folks out their have come up with a way to
> get our tv guide line ups for free.
> What would be cool is if people reply to this email with either ideas
> or scripts that have written to fix this problem. It's not that I'm
> against paying for a service.....ok, that's a lie! I do want it free,
> there must be a way!
There is a sophisticated, open source TV guide for Australia available
from <http://svn.whuffy.com/index.fcgi/wiki>. It is capable of seeking
an alternative web site if one site changes the data format and can
incorporate extra information, such as IMDB data, in the downloaded
listings. I think that adapting the code for one location in the United
States would be a straightforward task. However, there is a limited and
fairly uniform range of TV programs available across Australia and
extending the program to serve all U.S. viewers would pose formidable
problems.
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william_munson at bellsouth

Sep 3, 2007, 9:20 AM

Post #3 of 182 (4987 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

Chuck Dock wrote:
> I've been looking at the mailing for about a week now and it would
> seem like some of you super smart folks out their have come up with a
> way to get our tv guide line ups for free.
> What would be cool is if people reply to this email with either ideas
> or scripts that have written to fix this problem. It's not that I'm
> against paying for a service.....ok, that's a lie! I do want it free,
> there must be a way!
>
>

Since you are in the usa you get to live by our copyright laws. I do not
see any possibility for scraping a website that does not break the law.
One possibility for free listings would be to buy one of the commercial
windows packages that includes listings and use it. :) Another to get a
dvr from your cable provider. They all cost money in one form or
another. If you like the features of myth as much as we all do, dig into
the pocketbook and pay the $5 per month for the first 3 months. Most
likely it will end up costing us $25-30 year once the devs know the
operating costs and can do some planning.

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 3, 2007, 9:58 AM

Post #4 of 182 (4979 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On 09/03/2007 10:41 AM, Chuck Dock wrote:
> I've been looking at the mailing for about a week now and it would
> seem like some of you super smart folks out their have come up with a
> way to get our tv guide line ups for free.
> What would be cool is if people reply to this email with either ideas
> or scripts that have written to fix this problem. It's not that I'm
> against paying for a service.....ok, that's a lie! I do want it free,
> there must be a way!

For only $15, I'm getting 3 months of my TV listings free:

- free of concern about the legality of the automated use of the
listings service
- free of concern about the legality of copying potentially
copyrighted data into my database (definitely copyrighted when talking
about SD data)
-- free of concern about breaking terms-of-service agreements by
"repurposing" listings paid for by purchasing certain hardware or other
services
-- free of concern about whether the listings service will change its
layout and break a cobbled-together web scraper that I'll then have to
spend my time modifying/updating/whatever to work with the new layout
-- free to use the last 3 1/2 years (
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/19659#19659 and
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/20769#20769) of
recording history (including DataDirect-specific episode ID's) so that
Myth knows what I've recorded and what I've watched
-- free to have the exact same high-quality data that's a significant
portion of the cost of a TiVo subscription or a cable-company PVR STB
rental cost

I have enough to worry about in my life, so when paying a reasonable fee
for extremely high-quality listings data gives me so many fewer things
to worry about than a zero-cost approach, the fee is worthwhile IMHO.
Thanks for setting me free, SD! (I will admit that I don't have a lot
of things to worry about in my life, but I guess there's a reason for
that. :)

Soon, I'm likely to get the same listings for only $20/year, but still
just as free.

Just my $0.02. (No you only need $14.98 more. :)

Mike
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fedora at adslpipe

Sep 3, 2007, 10:50 AM

Post #5 of 182 (4983 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On 03/09/2007 17:58, Michael T. Dean wrote:

> - free of concern about the legality of copying potentially
> copyrighted data into my database (definitely copyrighted when talking
> about SD data)

I was under the impression that you can't copyright "factual data", only
the particular presentation of that data?

Not that I'd condone undermining the good efforts of the SD developers,
and not that it directly concerns me as we have good EIT data here in
the UK (which myth understands thanks to the myth developers!)

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 3, 2007, 11:29 AM

Post #6 of 182 (4987 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On 09/03/2007 01:50 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> On 03/09/2007 17:58, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>> - free of concern about the legality of copying potentially
>> copyrighted data into my database (definitely copyrighted when talking
>> about SD data)
> I was under the impression that you can't copyright "factual data", only
> the particular presentation of that data?
>
> Not that I'd condone undermining the good efforts of the SD developers,
> and not that it directly concerns me as we have good EIT data here in
> the UK (which myth understands thanks to the myth developers!)

There is more than factual data in the DataDirect data provided through
SD. http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/282888#282888

And don't get me started on the whole, "How can it be factual data until
/after/ it's already been broadcast?" question. (It's factual data that
the episode "The Colonial Mantel" of "New Yankee Workshop" was broadcast
on WMFE at 4:00pm EDT on Sat Jul 14, 2007. It's likely that the episode
"The Storage Shed" of "New Yankee Workshop" will be broadcast on WMFE at
4:00pm EDT on Sat Sep 15, 2007, but until it's actually broadcast it's
not so much a fact.) This seems especially relevant to me as it's also
been said that many stations broadcast a series in order and have no
idea which episode will be broadcast (knowing only "the next tape on the
shelf/file in the series/whatever") until TMS provides the listings data
to them.

Mike
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rod at sunsetsystems

Sep 3, 2007, 12:26 PM

Post #7 of 182 (4988 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:58:26 -0400
> From: "Michael T. Dean" <mtdean [at] thirdcontact>
> Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] tv guide line-up free
> To: Discussion about mythtv <mythtv-users [at] mythtv>
> Message-ID: <46DC3D32.6050608 [at] thirdcontact>
...
> For only $15, I'm getting 3 months of my TV listings free:
>
> - free of concern about the legality of the automated use of the
> listings service
> - free of concern about the legality of copying potentially
> copyrighted data into my database (definitely copyrighted when talking
> about SD data)
> -- free of concern about breaking terms-of-service agreements by
> "repurposing" listings paid for by purchasing certain hardware or other
> services

SD is not without its own legal constraints. See:

http://www.schedulesdirect.org/sagreement

and compare with, for example:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P500012

Which do you think is more restrictive? (hint: which one lets me use
whatever the hell software I feel like using? Which one has an
indemnification clause creating new liability for the user?)

I have to confess that I have mixed feelings about SD. On one hand
it's a noble effort filling a great need, but on the other hand I see
some conflict of interest with its evangelists being the same people
driving the open source applications that use it. I don't think it's
right for those people to be discouraging and demonizing the scrapers
(one of which I happen to have have just authored), which also share
the Free Software mindset. Let each have its own niche, without
gratuitous disparagement.

Rod
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 3, 2007, 1:28 PM

Post #8 of 182 (4985 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On 09/03/2007 03:26 PM, Rod Roark wrote:
>> From: "Michael T. Dean"
>>
> ...
>
>> For only $15, I'm getting 3 months of my TV listings free:
>>
>> - free of concern about the legality of the automated use of the
>> listings service
>> - free of concern about the legality of copying potentially
>> copyrighted data into my database (definitely copyrighted when talking
>> about SD data)
>> -- free of concern about breaking terms-of-service agreements by
>> "repurposing" listings paid for by purchasing certain hardware or other
>> services
>>
> SD is not without its own legal constraints. See:
>
> http://www.schedulesdirect.org/sagreement
>
> and compare with, for example:
>
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P500012
>
> Which do you think is more restrictive? (hint: which one lets me use
> whatever the hell software I feel like using? Which one has an
> indemnification clause creating new liability for the user?)
>

I never said that SD is free of legal constraints. I simply said that
it's legal to use SD with MythTV. Using a web scraper is likely not
legal (or, at minimum, likely a violation of the terms of service of the
source web site).

OK, true, that statement presumes that scraping DirecTV's site is
violating some law or terms of service (which I cannot prove--see
below). If you can prove that to be incorrect, I'll happily admit your
approach is a good one (at least for DirecTV users). (BTW, I would
classify express written permission from DirecTV as proof, but would
classify legal opinions as conjecture--that I, personally, am not
willing to back up by potentially needing to front my own court costs at
some date in the future; though others may feel opinions are sufficient
for their peace of mind.)

> I have to confess that I have mixed feelings about SD. On one hand
> it's a noble effort filling a great need, but on the other hand I see
> some conflict of interest with its evangelists being the same people
> driving the open source applications that use it. I don't think it's
> right for those people to be discouraging and demonizing the scrapers
>

For the record, I am neither an SD board member nor a MythTV dev.
Though I am completely against the use of any scraper-based mechanism
that violates any laws or terms of service. I also will speak out
vocally against the inclusion of any scraper that is not proven to be in
compliance with laws/terms of service into a project such as XMLTV or
MythTV.

> (one of which I happen to have have just authored), which also share
> the Free Software mindset. Let each have its own niche, without
> gratuitous disparagement.

Remember, though, that despite what the media may say and despite what
many who don't understand Free Software may think, the Free Software
mindset does not encourage (and actively discourages) illegal uses of
software. Again, I won't try to (and explicitly admit that I cannot)
argue the legality of scraping DirecTV's site because I am neither a
lawyer nor interested in scraping their site. So, in the event that
your DirecTV scraper is legal and in compliance with DirecTV's usage
terms, I'll agree that it does not violate the Free Software mindset.

If you've submitted your scraper to the XMLTV project and it was
rejected (perhaps by Robert Eden, one of the SD board members), I'm sure
it was rejected for good reasons (probably legal reasons). He has
explicitly stated he will accept and include in XMLTV any non-SD
listings solutions that do not violate laws or terms of service (and
meets the project's coding standards). See
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tv.xmltv.general/2208 .

Mike

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fedora at adslpipe

Sep 3, 2007, 1:59 PM

Post #9 of 182 (4975 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On 03/09/2007 19:29, Michael T. Dean wrote:

> There is more than factual data in the DataDirect data provided through
> SD. http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/282888#282888

Sorry, I didn't mean to drag up anything that had been done to death in
the whole zap2it/schedulesdirect issue, I didn't pay it much attention
as it didn't concern me directly.

> And don't get me started on the whole, "How can it be factual data until
> /after/ it's already been broadcast?" question.

I'm sure it could make for an interesting argument, but let's not bother eh?
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rod at sunsetsystems

Sep 3, 2007, 2:58 PM

Post #10 of 182 (4968 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

Michael T. Dean wrote:

[long rant about illegal software deleted]

I think we're OK. DirecTV's terms appear to be plainly expressed.
The document speaks for itself. What more proof is required? Large
corporations do not give "express written permission" to the consumer
for anything. If you've ever worked in one you'll know that.

Not all scrapers are illegal. It's not right to paint a cloud of
legal uncertainty over all scrapers, nor to hold up SD as the only
legal solution, nor to insist on "proof" where all relevant facts are
already available to the world.

> If you've submitted your scraper to the XMLTV project and it was
> rejected (perhaps by Robert Eden, one of the SD board members), I'm
> sure it was rejected for good reasons (probably legal reasons). He
> has explicitly stated he will accept and include in XMLTV any
> non-SD listings solutions that do not violate laws or terms of
> service (and meets the project's coding standards). See
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tv.xmltv.general/2208 .

Submitted, yes. No response yet, I suppose they are looking at it.

Rod
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david at segall

Sep 4, 2007, 8:29 AM

Post #11 of 182 (4954 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 09/03/2007 10:41 AM, Chuck Dock wrote:
>> I've been looking at the mailing for about a week now and it would
>> seem like some of you super smart folks out their have come up with a
>> way to get our tv guide line ups for free.
>> What would be cool is if people reply to this email with either ideas
>> or scripts that have written to fix this problem. It's not that I'm
>> against paying for a service.....ok, that's a lie! I do want it free,
>> there must be a way!
>
> For only $15, I'm getting 3 months of my TV listings free:
>
> - free of concern about the legality of the automated use of the
> listings service
> - free of concern about the legality of copying potentially
> copyrighted data into my database (definitely copyrighted when talking
> about SD data)
If the above concerns are warranted and the activities are against a
Federal or State law why hasn't Google been prosecuted? They have not
only automated the addition of copyrighted material to their database
they have also packaged and republished the copyrighted material for
profit. If the activities are simply subject to civil copyright action
then what financial loss has my individual web scraper caused the site
in excess of that caused by their expected visitors?
> -- free of concern about whether the listings service will change its
> layout and break a cobbled-together web scraper that I'll then have to
> spend my time modifying/updating/whatever to work with the new layout
Shepherd <http://svn.whuffy.com/index.fcgi/wiki> has solved this problem
for Australians.
>
> I have enough to worry about in my life,
I'm sure we all have and spreading unwarranted FUD only adds to it. It
is the expected behavior of the Recording Industry Association or the
Business Software Alliance but I don't think you should help them.
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 4, 2007, 11:25 AM

Post #12 of 182 (4936 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On 09/03/2007 05:58 PM, Rod Roark wrote:
> I think we're OK. DirecTV's terms appear to be plainly expressed.
> The document speaks for itself. What more proof is required? Large
> corporations do not give "express written permission" to the consumer
> for anything. If you've ever worked in one you'll know that.
>

Though, as a reminder, SD has express written permission from TMS to
allow MythTV users to use the listings data. (I know that's not that's
not what you were saying, but keep reading.)

> Not all scrapers are illegal. It's not right to paint a cloud of
> legal uncertainty over all scrapers, nor to hold up SD as the only
> legal solution,

I did not say SD was the only legal approach, I simply said, there's no
need for concern over legality because it was created for, and the
contract with TMS explicitly allows for, use with MythTV and other open
source projects.

I'm not the one painting the cloud of legal uncertainty over scrapers.
Your lawmakers are. The companies suing people are. The courts
deciding those cases are. I'm simply saying there are no clouds in my
SD-land.

> nor to insist on "proof" where all relevant facts are
> already available to the world.
>

Really. I'm not allowed to insist that the data source /I/ choose to
use can provide proof that my use of that data is legal and authorized?

If you read my original post (notice I didn't say, "re-read"), you'll
notice I never claimed any other solution was illegal (although I will
go so far as to say that unless you have TMS-specific progrm ID's, you
will lose the 3 1/2 years of recording history that I mentioned SD as
maintaining). I simply said that SD is legal/authorized and I don't
have to worry about whether it is. Once someone provides the same kind
of proof of legality/authorization for another approach, I'll post
messages saying that it and SD provide worry-free access to data...

And, speaking of which, in spite of all the "FUD-spreading" responses to
that message, I haven't yet seen a single response showing a solution
that provides the same proof of legality/authorization that SD provides
me. Since I want that proof (since $1000's of dollars of court costs
would cover a lot of months of SD service--even at the "high" $5/mo
rate), I choose to use SD, and I'm benefiting from the higher-quality
data, better lineups, and more accurate listings than I ever had with
Zap2It Labs data.

Feel free to use other sources, but I won't be joining you. I didn't
build my MythTV system because I wanted to save a few bucks a month over
a TiVo subscription (which actually would have been a lot cheaper than
my Myth system, BTW). I built it because it's a lot better than
anything else I've found out there. I find it far to useful and far to
valuable to skimp on data (because without that high-quality
data--including the 3 1/2 years of history), my Myth box is pretty much
useless to me (and I could get the same functionality from a TiVo or a
cable-/satellite-company-provided PVR).

Mike
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robert.current at gmail

Sep 4, 2007, 11:53 AM

Post #13 of 182 (4948 views)
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Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

Rod Roark Wrote:
>
> Michael T. Dean wrote:
> [long rant about illegal software deleted]
>
> I think we're OK. DirecTV's terms appear to be plainly expressed.
> The document speaks for itself. What more proof is required? Large
> corporations do not give "express written permission" to the consumer

I'd agree with you Rod, Michael T. Dean seems to be a pretty
pro-Schedules Direct guy that has already made up his mind that there
is no option other than Schedules Direct, and he seems to think
anything else is illegal and stupid. And, he has no problem starting
long rants about how illegal or stupid you are if you oppose Schedules
Direct.

Because of his attitude, any discussion on this list of other options
is squashed. You can forget trying to bring up anything with hopes of
working out some solution, because all you will get is name calling
and FUD. It's this attitude that made me refuse to consider using it.
They are 100% committed to making the project work, no matter what
good ideas are thrown aside in the process, and how much
disinformation they have to spread.

Just look at all the FUD on the Schedules Direct Website! They have a
FAQ "What about alternatives to licensing data?" In that, they
discuss VBI, EIT, and Screen-scrape, saying all options are impossible
or illegal, and Schedules Direct is the ONLY option. That's simply
not true.

AFAIK and IANAL, Titan TV is desperate for traffic to it's website. I
believe web traffic directly impacts their income. So, not only have
the GB-PVR guys have a working XML to xmltv converter, and not only
can they pull listings, they can set up an account on TitanTV, and
schedule recordings right from the TitanTV website:
http://forums.gbpvr.com/showthread.php?t=27618&highlight=titantv

I don't know, but I suspect TitanTV is thrilled to get more people
visiting the site and using the listings. It's like you said "Large
corporations do not give "express written permission" to the consumer
for anything." But no one has tried to stop them. You can sign up
for the free account with a code listed in the product package, a
hardware package, which to me is about the closest thing anyone will
ever see to express written consent.

I've said all this before, half the time I'm ignored, the other half
the time I get called everything short of Satan for even bringing it
up. The problem isn't data sources, the problem is programmer
resources. They are all on the Schedules Direct bandwagon. There are
alternatives, but nothing anyone in the MythTV project is working on.
This whole thing didn't happen in a vacuum, it affected other groups
too, some have came up with other solutions.

TitanTV offers free XML listing data to download, IF you have a
partner product (Adaptec, ATi, Hauppauge, etc...). Anyone willing to
work on it should find it is actually a more obvious source of data
than scrapers, for testing you can pull listings even without the
accounts by just tweaking the URL for the XML data:
Line ups for zip:
http://data.titantv.com/dataservice.asmx/RegisterUserZip?UUID=EGU7TZLA1JA94H679Z9WVV5ETEEG17&Zip=20176

Channels listings:
http://data.titantv.com/dataservice.asmx/RequestLineupData?UUID=EGU7TZLA1JA94H679Z9WVV5ETEEG17&Zip=20176&ProviderId=A_61513

Program data
http://data.titantv.com/dataservice.asmx/RequestProgramData?UUID=EGU7TZLA1JA94H679Z9WVV5ETEEG17&ProviderId=A_61513&DaysRequested=1

Here's where the topic dies, or Michael T. Dean shows up to call me
Satan and say it's all illegal, or both�
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myth at dermanouelian

Sep 4, 2007, 12:02 PM

Post #14 of 182 (4932 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On Sep 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Robert Current wrote:

<cut out the personal attacks>

> Just look at all the FUD on the Schedules Direct Website! They have a
> FAQ "What about alternatives to licensing data?" In that, they
> discuss VBI, EIT, and Screen-scrape, saying all options are impossible
> or illegal, and Schedules Direct is the ONLY option. That's simply
> not true.

Please let us all know if you have a free, easy, reliable way to get
accurate listing info into MythTV and I'm sure we will all use it.
Then SchedulesDirect can dissolve and the people who make up that
team will not have to worry about putting so much of their personal
time and effort into a project that is making zero profit.

Thanks!

-Brad

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robert.current at gmail

Sep 4, 2007, 12:13 PM

Post #15 of 182 (4938 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On Sep 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Robert Current wrote:
>
> <cut out the personal attacks>

I'm not the one attacking. People asked a question, I replied. I've
been attacked, and nothing I said is untrue.

> > Just look at all the FUD on the Schedules Direct Website! They have a
> > FAQ "What about alternatives to licensing data?" In that, they
> > discuss VBI, EIT, and Screen-scrape, saying all options are impossible
> > or illegal, and Schedules Direct is the ONLY option. That's simply
> > not true.
>
> Please let us all know if you have a free, easy, reliable way to get
> accurate listing info into MythTV and I'm sure we will all use it.
> Then SchedulesDirect can dissolve and the people who make up that
> team will not have to worry about putting so much of their personal
> time and effort into a project that is making zero profit.

Hello? I did, several times, point to free data sources.

I don't need it, I don't use Direct Data any more. I didn't have the
time to mess with it, and still don't. Someone asked if there was
another source, I mentioned it.

I answered the question "can data be obtained freely" and I said yes,
and gave very clear examples.

That reply sounded like confirmation that you refused to even
acknowledge it was there, did you even look at the existing data? If
you want the data, it's there, I pointed to it. If you don't, don't
get mad and me for not writing the program you need to use it. I
don't need it, I don't have time, and I really don't care, why should
I write it for you?

Don't get upset because someone answered part of the question. Data
is available, good quality data, in XML format. The rest is up to
someone with more free time that needs a solution more than I do.
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myth at dermanouelian

Sep 4, 2007, 12:25 PM

Post #16 of 182 (4935 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On Sep 4, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Robert Current wrote:

>> Please let us all know if you have a free, easy, reliable way to get
>> accurate listing info into MythTV and I'm sure we will all use it.
>> Then SchedulesDirect can dissolve and the people who make up that
>> team will not have to worry about putting so much of their personal
>> time and effort into a project that is making zero profit.
>
> Hello? I did, several times, point to free data sources.
>
> I don't need it, I don't use Direct Data any more. I didn't have the
> time to mess with it, and still don't. Someone asked if there was
> another source, I mentioned it.
>
> I answered the question "can data be obtained freely" and I said yes,
> and gave very clear examples.
>
> That reply sounded like confirmation that you refused to even
> acknowledge it was there, did you even look at the existing data? If
> you want the data, it's there, I pointed to it. If you don't, don't
> get mad and me for not writing the program you need to use it. I
> don't need it, I don't have time, and I really don't care, why should
> I write it for you?
>
> Don't get upset because someone answered part of the question. Data
> is available, good quality data, in XML format. The rest is up to
> someone with more free time that needs a solution more than I do.

I'm not upset. I even said please. I looked at the TitanTV forum link
you sent. It gave a bunch of instructions on how to use it with
Windows and I got scared. Then I just went to TitanTV directly and
had a flash-back of all the previous problems screen-scraping with
TMS data. I got even more scared and then remembered I pay $5/month
to not deal with it.

My point is that most people on the MythTV Users list are not going
to spend the time it takes to write a new scraper. Certainly not the
time it takes to maintain one when the source page changes.
Therefore, the only truly supported method in the US right now is
SchedulesDirect. When someone steps up and makes TitanTV listings as
easy, people will start using it.

People assume because it's not handed to them, it's not available.
Does anyone know how TitanTV feels about MythTV users scraping their
listings and using them for free?

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robert.current at gmail

Sep 4, 2007, 12:42 PM

Post #17 of 182 (4949 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

>
> People assume because it's not handed to them, it's not available.
> Does anyone know how TitanTV feels about MythTV users scraping their
> listings and using them for free?

Ok, I'm taking this out of order here, because this was the important
point here...

The data in the links I provided was not scraping data... that was
Direct Data, in XML. Huge difference.

And, IMHO, how TitanTV feels (judging by conversations on other
forums), I believe they were slightly bothered but didn't stop it...
UNTIL the GB-PVR wrote the backwards side of it, which changes
EVERYTHING.

TitanTV lives and dies on income from adverts. And when GB-PVR wrote
the bit where users go to the TitanTV website to schedule recordings,
that increases TitanTV's income, so how could they be upset? When
users go to the website, and schedule the recordings there, they are
viewing ads that are making TitanTV money. If MythTV did that, I'd
use TitanTV's website for scheduling recordings, why not?

I have nothing against them making an honest buck in adverts, and I
could do it from a friends house, on the road, a hotel room while I
was on vacation, anywhere... not just my local LAN to get at MythWeb.

> I'm not upset. I even said please. I looked at the TitanTV forum link
> you sent. It gave a bunch of instructions on how to use it with
> Windows and I got scared. Then I just went to TitanTV directly and
> had a flash-back of all the previous problems screen-scraping with
> TMS data. I got even more scared and then remembered I pay $5/month
> to not deal with it.

Just shows that it's been done. Some people don't believe it can be
done until they are shown someone else did it.

Now, for my personal opinion on Schedules Direct... (don't read the
following if your easily offended):

I don't pay $5/month because I didn't think the SchedulesDirect guys
were giving honest answers, so I went out looking myself.

First, I found free data was available, but they refused to
acknowledge it. Strike one.

Next, I found that the other FUD statement on the website about EIT
data was a total lie. Where they said "In the USA, EIT data is
supposed to contain at least 12 hours of accurate data for the digital
stations. Only a few broadcasters provide anything more than that, and
some broadcasters don't even provide the legally required EIT data."
I found lots of people get at least 7 days data from SatTV stuff, and
I was getting at least 3-4 days on my OTA HDTV card. I guess going
1-2 years back maybe that statement was true, but at least locally I
get decent OTA EIT data, so the statement was pure FUD on the part of
SchedulesDirect.

So, with those to things made clear to me, and the attitude on this
list, I just avoided Schedules Direct completely. I am more than
happy with OTA EIT, and I don't need a 2 weeks of listing data. As
long as it get's the show in time to record it, what do I care? If I
want listing data, I can go to tvguide.com and see what shows are
coming up, and enter a keyword search in MythTV. So, why pay $5/month
for something I don't need, from people who seem to be less than
honest about why it's so desperately needed.
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myth at dermanouelian

Sep 4, 2007, 1:09 PM

Post #18 of 182 (4926 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On Sep 4, 2007, at 12:42 PM, Robert Current wrote:

> Ok, I'm taking this out of order here, because this was the important
> point here...
>
> The data in the links I provided was not scraping data... that was
> Direct Data, in XML. Huge difference.
>
> And, IMHO, how TitanTV feels (judging by conversations on other
> forums), I believe they were slightly bothered but didn't stop it...
> UNTIL the GB-PVR wrote the backwards side of it, which changes
> EVERYTHING.
>
> TitanTV lives and dies on income from adverts. And when GB-PVR wrote
> the bit where users go to the TitanTV website to schedule recordings,
> that increases TitanTV's income, so how could they be upset? When
> users go to the website, and schedule the recordings there, they are
> viewing ads that are making TitanTV money. If MythTV did that, I'd
> use TitanTV's website for scheduling recordings, why not?

I bet they would be upset if you used more bandwidth than you are
giving back with scheduling recordings which is exactly what MythTV
does and will continue to do. I know I would be upset. I guess I
would rather pay $5 for an ad-free, already implemented and proven
stable way of doing it than downloading a bunch of ads.

> I have nothing against them making an honest buck in adverts, and I
> could do it from a friends house, on the road, a hotel room while I
> was on vacation, anywhere... not just my local LAN to get at MythWeb.

My MythWeb is accessible outside my LAN as is many people's I would
guess. I schedule recordings all the time from work, from my iPhone,
etc. I love walking through the video store, seeing a movie or TV
show box set I want and logging in to schedule it or logging into
NetFlix and ordering it if it's too current to be showing on TV. :)

>
>> I'm not upset. I even said please. I looked at the TitanTV forum link
>> you sent. It gave a bunch of instructions on how to use it with
>> Windows and I got scared. Then I just went to TitanTV directly and
>> had a flash-back of all the previous problems screen-scraping with
>> TMS data. I got even more scared and then remembered I pay $5/month
>> to not deal with it.
>
> Just shows that it's been done. Some people don't believe it can be
> done until they are shown someone else did it.

Everyone knows it's been done and can be done. It was like that
before the DirectData service.

> Now, for my personal opinion on Schedules Direct... (don't read the
> following if your easily offended):
>
> I don't pay $5/month because I didn't think the SchedulesDirect guys
> were giving honest answers, so I went out looking myself.

That's fine. Not upset or offended yet.

> First, I found free data was available, but they refused to
> acknowledge it. Strike one.
>
> Next, I found that the other FUD statement on the website about EIT
> data was a total lie. Where they said "In the USA, EIT data is
> supposed to contain at least 12 hours of accurate data for the digital
> stations. Only a few broadcasters provide anything more than that, and
> some broadcasters don't even provide the legally required EIT data."
> I found lots of people get at least 7 days data from SatTV stuff, and
> I was getting at least 3-4 days on my OTA HDTV card. I guess going
> 1-2 years back maybe that statement was true, but at least locally I
> get decent OTA EIT data, so the statement was pure FUD on the part of
> SchedulesDirect.

EIT was never that accurate for me when I tried it about 6 months
ago. I'm sure it's different depending on the station sending the
data. Plus, I use DirecTV for which EIT data is not available. If it
works for you, that's awesome! So why do you care about
SchedulesDirect at all? Why would you even consider using it?

> So, with those to things made clear to me, and the attitude on this
> list, I just avoided Schedules Direct completely. I am more than
> happy with OTA EIT, and I don't need a 2 weeks of listing data. As
> long as it get's the show in time to record it, what do I care? If I
> want listing data, I can go to tvguide.com and see what shows are
> coming up, and enter a keyword search in MythTV. So, why pay $5/month
> for something I don't need, from people who seem to be less than
> honest about why it's so desperately needed.

Sounds like the best move. Don't use SchedulesDirect. As far as I can
tell, SchedulesDirect is only for people who record lots of programs
and don't feel like taking the time to record stuff manually. If you
either don't care about using up all that time or schedule so few
shows that the time isn't worth as much as the $5/month is to you,
great!

Still not upset or offended. I'm concerned you're spending a lot of
time on something you clearly don't want or need to use, but I'm not
upset or offended.

-Brad

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robert.current at gmail

Sep 4, 2007, 1:28 PM

Post #19 of 182 (4920 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

> Sounds like the best move. Don't use SchedulesDirect. As far as I can
> tell, SchedulesDirect is only for people who record lots of programs
> and don't feel like taking the time to record stuff manually. If you
> either don't care about using up all that time or schedule so few
> shows that the time isn't worth as much as the $5/month is to you,
> great!

Either your very confused, or I am. I'm guessing it's me, so...

I'll admit, I'm lost... between two tuners, I record 30-40 hours a
day. And, I don't spend any time scheduling stuff, it finds and
records it all based on show titles and keywords. I've not set up a
recording time in manual recordings ever...

What are you saying $5/month will do that I can't do with EIT?

EIT gives show titles and descriptions, often actors, and more... The
only thing I miss is star ratings of movies.... I liked the "3 star
or better" option that was avaliable with Zap2It's data... but other
than that, I'm totally confused. I think I'm recording lots of shows
(more than I watch, too many in fact). I think it's doing it
automatically (I don't know what you mean by manual).

How will $5 save me any time? It sounds like it requires a lot of
setup, it sounds like it will take more of my time...
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rod at sunsetsystems

Sep 4, 2007, 1:31 PM

Post #20 of 182 (4930 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

Brad DerManouelian wrote:
> I'm concerned you're spending a lot of time on something you clearly
> don't want or need to use

Really? It sounds more like you are trying to convince us that Robert
is an idiot.

I think the important point to take away from this thread (which,
since we are all now repeating ourselves it's time to close) is that
the SD fans and representatives are overselling it. You (the plural
you) are just pissing people off with the endless FUD about illegality
and other dubious claims.

SD has its benefits. Other solutions have theirs. MythTV users will
decide what's best for them, and are already accustomed to skipping
the commercials. :-)

Peace.

Rod
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myth at dermanouelian

Sep 4, 2007, 1:34 PM

Post #21 of 182 (4924 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On Sep 4, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Robert Current wrote:

>> Sounds like the best move. Don't use SchedulesDirect. As far as I can
>> tell, SchedulesDirect is only for people who record lots of programs
>> and don't feel like taking the time to record stuff manually. If you
>> either don't care about using up all that time or schedule so few
>> shows that the time isn't worth as much as the $5/month is to you,
>> great!
>
> Either your very confused, or I am. I'm guessing it's me, so...
>
> I'll admit, I'm lost... between two tuners, I record 30-40 hours a
> day. And, I don't spend any time scheduling stuff, it finds and
> records it all based on show titles and keywords. I've not set up a
> recording time in manual recordings ever...
>
> What are you saying $5/month will do that I can't do with EIT?

Nothing. EIT is working for you. I wish it did for me.

> EIT gives show titles and descriptions, often actors, and more... The
> only thing I miss is star ratings of movies.... I liked the "3 star
> or better" option that was avaliable with Zap2It's data... but other
> than that, I'm totally confused. I think I'm recording lots of shows
> (more than I watch, too many in fact). I think it's doing it
> automatically (I don't know what you mean by manual).
>
> How will $5 save me any time? It sounds like it requires a lot of
> setup, it sounds like it will take more of my time...

Yes. Please don't use it. EIT is getting you all the guide data you
need. That's why support for it was built into mythtv. It works for
people - usually people in europe. I have no luck with it in SF since
my local stations don't send complete data and I can't get any from
DirecTV. Not sure how many ways I can say it. I'm happy you get free
guide data. I can't. $5/month is close enough to free for me, though.

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myth at dermanouelian

Sep 4, 2007, 1:36 PM

Post #22 of 182 (4926 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On Sep 4, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Rod Roark wrote:

> Brad DerManouelian wrote:
>> I'm concerned you're spending a lot of time on something you clearly
>> don't want or need to use
>
> Really? It sounds more like you are trying to convince us that Robert
> is an idiot.

When did I do that? I've never met the guy, but if he was smart
enough to look into free guide data and find TitanTV as a source,
he's already smarter than a lot of other people I know. :)

I keep saying he's doing the right thing by not using
SchedulesDirect. And now I'm being accused of calling him an idiot. I
guess I give up.

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david at shay

Sep 4, 2007, 1:40 PM

Post #23 of 182 (4928 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On 9/4/07, Robert Current <robert.current [at] gmail> wrote:
<Snip irrelevant stuff>

> TitanTV offers free XML listing data to download, IF you have a
> partner product (Adaptec, ATi, Hauppauge, etc...). Anyone willing to
> work on it should find it is actually a more obvious source of data
> than scrapers, for testing you can pull listings even without the
> accounts by just tweaking the URL for the XML data:
> Line ups for zip:
> http://data.titantv.com/dataservice.asmx/RegisterUserZip?UUID=EGU7TZLA1JA94H679Z9WVV5ETEEG17&Zip=20176
>
> Channels listings:
> http://data.titantv.com/dataservice.asmx/RequestLineupData?UUID=EGU7TZLA1JA94H679Z9WVV5ETEEG17&Zip=20176&ProviderId=A_61513
>
> Program data
> http://data.titantv.com/dataservice.asmx/RequestProgramData?UUID=EGU7TZLA1JA94H679Z9WVV5ETEEG17&ProviderId=A_61513&DaysRequested=1
>
> Here's where the topic dies, or Michael T. Dean shows up to call me
> Satan and say it's all illegal, or both�

Interesting stuff. I will admit to having played around with this
myself in the past (as well as with the Yahoo and MSN ones.....)
Here's the catch. See that nice little string after UUID. TitanTV
could disable that UUID in about 2 minutes if they felt like it.

Also, let's not confuse these XML-generating URL's with the remote
scheduling service that ties in with the web-site that TitanTV runs.
They are VERY different things. These URL's are meant for approved
partner products, of which I'm assuming you are not, since I sincerely
doubt you got that UUID directly from Titan. In fact, I know you
didn't, since I've seen that specific UUID before. The remote
scheduling service does nothing like this at all, in fact it has
nothing to do with listings data at all. All it does is basically
generate a local manual recording to GBPVR. Could we do that in Myth?
Sure. Would we want to? I don't think so. Look at all the lost
flexibility -- no recurring programs, no duplicate detection, etc.

Same issue applies with the Yahoo and MSN URLs. Sure they generate
XML, that makes them great in one sense. Get's past most of the
screen-scraping problems. Trouble is you are effectively violating the
TOS of something. For instance, the Yahoo Go-TV application that you
reverse-engineered to determine those URL's, etc. The MSN website
that you reverse-engineered to determine those URL's, etc. A TOS is
violated somewhere along the line for every single one of these that I
have seen.

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse this debate with facts.
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danielk at cuymedia

Sep 4, 2007, 1:54 PM

Post #24 of 182 (4935 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 12:42 -0700, Robert Current wrote:
> First, I found free data was available, but they refused to
> acknowledge it. Strike one.

No one has to my knowledge pointed out a free source of data that
is legal and can be used by any large subset of MythTV users.

> Next, I found that the other FUD statement on the website about EIT
> data was a total lie. Where they said "In the USA, EIT data is
> supposed to contain at least 12 hours of accurate data for the digital
> stations. Only a few broadcasters provide anything more than that, and
> some broadcasters don't even provide the legally required EIT data."
> I found lots of people get at least 7 days data from SatTV stuff, and
> I was getting at least 3-4 days on my OTA HDTV card. I guess going
> 1-2 years back maybe that statement was true, but at least locally I
> get decent OTA EIT data, so the statement was pure FUD on the part of
> SchedulesDirect.

ATSC EIT can technically contain a lot of scheduling information, but
in practice around the US and Canada it does not. As for satellite TV,
the US broadcaster using DVB EIT, Dish Network, is providing enough
scheduling data for their subscribers to run MythTV. It's roughly
analogous to the data provided to MythTV users in Europe. It's not as
complete as SD data but it's perfectly adequate. It is in fact from the
same upstream source, TMS. I wrote most of the EIT parsing code used in
the US for MythTV and the now/next VBI parsing code, and I fact checked
the FAQ item that Schedules Direct posted. When it refers to 12 hours
being required by law, that is only for ATSC EIT; AFAIK the pseudo DVB
EIT used by Dish Network is not required by law and is only provided
as a convenience to their customers. Most MythTV users in the US and
Canada are not Dish Network customers so this falls into the category
of solutions which are very limited in scope and so will not satisfy
very many MythTV users (and it requires you to purchase and configure
hardware which most residential Dish Network subscribers do not already
have.)

> So, with those to things made clear to me, and the attitude on this
> list, I just avoided Schedules Direct completely. I am more than
> happy with OTA EIT, and I don't need a 2 weeks of listing data. As
> long as it get's the show in time to record it, what do I care? If I
> want listing data, I can go to tvguide.com and see what shows are
> coming up, and enter a keyword search in MythTV. So, why pay $5/month
> for something I don't need, from people who seem to be less than
> honest about why it's so desperately needed.

As writer of both the EIT parser you are using now and a Schedules
Direct board member I have no problem with what you are doing. If
you can get the listings you need with EIT more power to you. Most
MythTV users want at least a week of data and do not want to visit
tvguide.com or set up keyword search recordings for everything.

-- Daniel

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 4, 2007, 2:00 PM

Post #25 of 182 (4933 views)
Permalink

Re: tv guide line-up free [In reply to]

On 09/04/2007 03:13 PM EDT, Robert Current wrote:
> On Sep 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Robert Current wrote:
>
>> <cut out the personal attacks>
>>
> I'm not the one attacking. People asked a question, I replied. I've
> been attacked, and nothing I said is untrue.

The message to which Brad replied (the second level of quote is from
Brad DerManouelian's 09/04/2007 03:02 PM EDT message, though Robert cut
out the attribution) is at
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/287296#287296 .

I'm Michael T. Dean. There seemed to be a lot of attacks on me in
Robert's message. So, if Robert isn't doing any personal attacks, I
must conclude that I'm not a person. (I guess I can live with that as
I've always said that there are many things people have done that make
me embarrassed to be a member of the human race.)

Sheesh. And I never said anything was illegal (I'm not a lawyer--so not
qualified to make such a statement--and really don't care since I have
SD)--only that I don't have to worry about the legality of any approach
because the approach I'm using is explicitly legal.

Mike
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