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A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought

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beww at beww

Jul 18, 2007, 7:26 AM

Post #26 of 41 (1375 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

Dan Ritter wrote:

> Not only that, but.
>
> (I've been following this case, along with many other similar
> cases, more-or-less since the beginning.)
>
> When Foster won her case and asked for attorney's fees, the RIAA
> tried to argue that she was asking for too much. So Foster asked
> what the RIAA was paying for their lawyers. RIAA didn't want to
> say, but the court compelled them.
>
> The 100K that Foster asked for is based on the hourly fees of
> the RIAA lawyers times the hours billed by Foster's lawyers.
>
> I believe the apropos phrase here is "hoist by their own
> petard".

Even better, the "fees" the RIAA was paying were almost certainly
accounting fictions, allowing them to book "expenses" that may well not
have anything to do with actual out-of-packet costs.

But the claimed charges better match what they tell they IRS are
"expenses", so they were hoisted twice.

But will they learn? I doubt it.

BEWW
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digitalaudiorock at hotmail

Jul 18, 2007, 7:28 AM

Post #27 of 41 (1373 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

>From: "Bob Sully"
>
>Agreed. I don't have any problem purchasing songs, but WITHOUT DRM of any
>sort-this is why I spend the $10/month for eMusic, even though their
>selection is limited. Until recently, anything you bought from iTunes was
>encumbered with DRM which limited your ability as to what player you can
>use it on and the number of personal copies you can make (I find that my
>mp3 CDs get scratched up pretty quickly after being tossed around in the
>car for a while - so I make new discs every few months). I can grip
>songs from my CDs to mp3, ogg, or whatever format without these
>limitations. When all downloadable music is unencumbered, people will
>have no problems buying it.
>
>
>$0.02 worth.
>
>Bob
>
I'm with you 100% on that. I buy CDs and rip them if I want mp3s. I'd be
spending a fortune on songs if more were available without DRM. I won't
spend a dime on any with it, that's for sure. Not just because I use only
Linux, but because I detest the concept of DRM so much. iTunes DRM
protection may not be as restrictive as some, but to me that's the worst
thing about it...it's succeded in getting people to accept a flawed product
as consumers. DRM does a fabulous job of punishing the innocent, while the
people who are going to pirate songs can and will, with or without the
existance of DRM. Ironically, the record industry has done a great job of
creating a situation where one can get a better quality product illegally.

Tom

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beww at beww

Jul 18, 2007, 7:51 AM

Post #28 of 41 (1382 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

Tom Dexter wrote:

>>
>> Bob
>>
> I'm with you 100% on that. I buy CDs and rip them if I want mp3s. I'd
> be spending a fortune on songs if more were available without DRM. I
> won't spend a dime on any with it, that's for sure. Not just because I
> use only Linux, but because I detest the concept of DRM so much. iTunes
> DRM protection may not be as restrictive as some, but to me that's the
> worst thing about it...it's succeded in getting people to accept a
> flawed product as consumers. DRM does a fabulous job of punishing the
> innocent, while the people who are going to pirate songs can and will,
> with or without the existance of DRM. Ironically, the record industry
> has done a great job of creating a situation where one can get a better
> quality product illegally.

I suspect a lot of the problem is that decision makers at record
companies are not terribly technically sharp, and are thus vulnerable to
sales pitches and just general bad information. Add to that a generally
anti-public paranoid mind set and you cansee why we are where we are at.

But these same decision-makers do generally understand lawyers and
litigation, so they do what they know.

Getting your tech info from vendors, and not from on-staff engineers and
technicians, usually leads to bad decisions, bad products, frustrated
consumers and lots of sales commissions.

As soon as a vendor tells you that one of his or her product's
"advantages" is that you don't have to hire a technical staff - watch
out, you are at their mercy.

BEWW
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jra at baylink

Jul 18, 2007, 7:51 AM

Post #29 of 41 (1368 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 08:06:08AM -0600, Brian Wood wrote:
> Actually, though there is a reasonable limit as to how many times you
> can burn a given playlist to CD directly, making even a trivial change
> to that playlist allows another set of burns. The resulting CD are
> playable/rippable by anything, and do not suffer from MP3 degradation.

No, but the *will* suffer from a certain amount of AAC degradation, and
yes, that would get a little worse if you them MP3d the tracks.

> The fact that they are starting to offer DRM-free files (albeit at a
> higher price) shows that the position of the copyright holders may be
> softening.

Yes, yes it is...

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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jra at baylink

Jul 18, 2007, 7:55 AM

Post #30 of 41 (1374 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 08:51:32AM -0600, Brian Wood wrote:
> As soon as a vendor tells you that one of his or her product's
> "advantages" is that you don't have to hire a technical staff - watch
> out, you are at their mercy.

"Create all your applications without having to learn any programming!"

Yeah.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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gull at gull

Jul 18, 2007, 12:13 PM

Post #31 of 41 (1379 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

On Jul 18, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Tom Dexter wrote:
> Ironically, the record industry has done a great job of creating a
> situation where one can get a better quality product illegally.

Eh? Last time I tried one of the illegal file sharing networks, it
was full of badly-encoded 128 kbps MP3s. Finding anything at a
decent bitrate (I consider 160 kbps the bare minimum) was just about
impossible.

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digitalaudiorock at hotmail

Jul 18, 2007, 1:24 PM

Post #32 of 41 (1366 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

>From: David Brodbeck
>
>On Jul 18, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Tom Dexter wrote:
> > Ironically, the record industry has done a great job of creating a
> > situation where one can get a better quality product illegally.
>
>Eh? Last time I tried one of the illegal file sharing networks, it
>was full of badly-encoded 128 kbps MP3s. Finding anything at a
>decent bitrate (I consider 160 kbps the bare minimum) was just about
>impossible.
>

That may well be...I don't use them. For myself I rip from CDs and encode
with lame using "-abr 192". I meant better in terms of being unencumbered
by DRM. To me a DRM protected file is an intentionally flawed product,
regardless of how it sounds.

I would think that, if someone is really concerned about fidelity, they'd
probably want the original raw 16 bit 44.1k audio anyway.

Tom

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gull at gull

Jul 18, 2007, 1:31 PM

Post #33 of 41 (1364 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

On Jul 18, 2007, at 1:24 PM, Tom Dexter wrote:

>> From: David Brodbeck
>>
>> On Jul 18, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Tom Dexter wrote:
>>> Ironically, the record industry has done a great job of creating a
>>> situation where one can get a better quality product illegally.
>>
>> Eh? Last time I tried one of the illegal file sharing networks, it
>> was full of badly-encoded 128 kbps MP3s. Finding anything at a
>> decent bitrate (I consider 160 kbps the bare minimum) was just about
>> impossible.
>>
>
> That may well be...I don't use them. For myself I rip from CDs and
> encode
> with lame using "-abr 192".

Ah. It was your reference to illegality that confused me. I don't
consider making a copy of a CD I own, for my own use, to be illegal.

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digitalaudiorock at hotmail

Jul 18, 2007, 1:41 PM

Post #34 of 41 (1365 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

>From: David Brodbeck
>
>On Jul 18, 2007, at 1:24 PM, Tom Dexter wrote:
>
> >> From: David Brodbeck
> >>
> >> On Jul 18, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Tom Dexter wrote:
> >>> Ironically, the record industry has done a great job of creating a
> >>> situation where one can get a better quality product illegally.
> >>
> >> Eh? Last time I tried one of the illegal file sharing networks, it
> >> was full of badly-encoded 128 kbps MP3s. Finding anything at a
> >> decent bitrate (I consider 160 kbps the bare minimum) was just about
> >> impossible.
> >>
> >
> > That may well be...I don't use them. For myself I rip from CDs and
> > encode
> > with lame using "-abr 192".
>
>Ah. It was your reference to illegality that confused me. I don't
>consider making a copy of a CD I own, for my own use, to be illegal.
>

Actually, you were correct...I was making the point that illegal downloads
aren't encumberred by DRM. I don't concider ripping my own CDs to be an
issue either, even if the RIAA doesn't concider that fair use.

Tom

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beww at beww

Jul 18, 2007, 1:51 PM

Post #35 of 41 (1367 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

Tom Dexter wrote:

>
> Actually, you were correct...I was making the point that illegal downloads
> aren't encumberred by DRM. I don't concider ripping my own CDs to be an
> issue either, even if the RIAA doesn't concider that fair use.

Ignoring the position of any other group, the way I see it, if anything
I do does not and will not cost anybody a sale then it is morally OK.

In fact, some "illegal" acts, by increasing awareness of particular art,
may well actually increase sales.

But try telling that to the RIAA.

BEWW
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decepticon at gmail

Jul 19, 2007, 7:23 AM

Post #36 of 41 (1359 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

>
> In fact, some "illegal" acts, by increasing awareness of particular art,
> may well actually increase sales.
>
> But try telling that to the RIAA.

I have had friends show me a peice of a song which they downloaded
"illegally" in the past. As a result of liking what I heard, I eventually
bought their entire discography, imports, posters, tee shirts, concert
tickets, and told everyone I know to go do the same. None of the above would
have happened otherwise.
Word of mouth can be very effective in the success of any product. I think
the realization of that fact, and how the internet has made it very easy to
self promote without a hefty loan and very slim points with which to repay
said loan, is what makes the major record companies struggle so hard to hold
those precious dollars as they finally shift directions to the deserving
artists instead.
Was that a run-on sentence? ;)
-J

adeffs.mythtv at gmail

Jul 19, 2007, 8:23 AM

Post #37 of 41 (1355 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

On 7/18/07, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
> Tom Dexter wrote:
> > Actually, you were correct...I was making the point that illegal downloads
> > aren't encumberred by DRM. I don't concider ripping my own CDs to be an
> > issue either, even if the RIAA doesn't concider that fair use.
>
> Ignoring the position of any other group, the way I see it, if anything
> I do does not and will not cost anybody a sale then it is morally OK.
>
> In fact, some "illegal" acts, by increasing awareness of particular art,
> may well actually increase sales.
>
> But try telling that to the RIAA.

who are now going after OTA radio stations the same way as online
streams for more money because they feel radio costs them too many
sales. people prefer to listen to the radio for their music than buy
the cd's.

one can easily download FLAC/APE/SHN''ed lossless full CD rips from
the internet illegally. So yes, illegal can provide higher quality,
non-DRM'd audio that legal means still can't quite match for almost
all labels. (though I *can* buy the new Shellac CD in 24bit lossless
=)

--
Steve
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beww at beww

Jul 19, 2007, 8:33 AM

Post #38 of 41 (1353 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

Steven Adeff wrote:
> On 7/18/07, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
>> Tom Dexter wrote:
>>> Actually, you were correct...I was making the point that illegal downloads
>>> aren't encumberred by DRM. I don't concider ripping my own CDs to be an
>>> issue either, even if the RIAA doesn't concider that fair use.
>> Ignoring the position of any other group, the way I see it, if anything
>> I do does not and will not cost anybody a sale then it is morally OK.
>>
>> In fact, some "illegal" acts, by increasing awareness of particular art,
>> may well actually increase sales.
>>
>> But try telling that to the RIAA.
>
> who are now going after OTA radio stations the same way as online
> streams for more money because they feel radio costs them too many
> sales. people prefer to listen to the radio for their music than buy
> the cd's.

But if people aren't made aware of the music in the first place how will
they know they want to buy it?

A LOT of people buy CDs of music they first heard on the radio.

BEWW
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Jul 19, 2007, 9:11 AM

Post #39 of 41 (1353 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

On 7/19/07, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
> Steven Adeff wrote:
> > On 7/18/07, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
> >> Tom Dexter wrote:
> >>> Actually, you were correct...I was making the point that illegal downloads
> >>> aren't encumberred by DRM. I don't concider ripping my own CDs to be an
> >>> issue either, even if the RIAA doesn't concider that fair use.
> >> Ignoring the position of any other group, the way I see it, if anything
> >> I do does not and will not cost anybody a sale then it is morally OK.
> >>
> >> In fact, some "illegal" acts, by increasing awareness of particular art,
> >> may well actually increase sales.
> >>
> >> But try telling that to the RIAA.
> >
> > who are now going after OTA radio stations the same way as online
> > streams for more money because they feel radio costs them too many
> > sales. people prefer to listen to the radio for their music than buy
> > the cd's.
>
> But if people aren't made aware of the music in the first place how will
> they know they want to buy it?
>
> A LOT of people buy CDs of music they first heard on the radio.

I'm just reporting what I hear ;-)

I agree though, and if it wasn't for the fact that ClearChannel was
hemorrhaging money I would find it an odd request, but they are
hemorrhaging money and I think *that is* money the RIAA deserves a
piece of. If they weren't I would argue that ClearChannel would then
play less music to lower costs and that would indirectly hurt sales.
Of course most of what ClearChannel plays is not new music, which is a
point the RIAA rightfully made. ie. all those oldie stations are
actually preventing those CD's from being sold.

or course, all this does do even more to kill new artists and new music...

--
Steve
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digitalaudiorock at hotmail

Jul 19, 2007, 10:17 AM

Post #40 of 41 (1350 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

>From: "Steven Adeff"
>
>I'm just reporting what I hear ;-)
>
>I agree though, and if it wasn't for the fact that ClearChannel was
>hemorrhaging money I would find it an odd request, but they are
>hemorrhaging money and I think *that is* money the RIAA deserves a
>piece of. If they weren't I would argue that ClearChannel would then
>play less music to lower costs and that would indirectly hurt sales.
>Of course most of what ClearChannel plays is not new music, which is a
>point the RIAA rightfully made. ie. all those oldie stations are
>actually preventing those CD's from being sold.
>
>or course, all this does do even more to kill new artists and new music...
>

I think your last sentence is key...personally I think that's actually one
of the unspoken motivations of the attack on internet radio. It's being
done under the guise of "looking out for artists" and "making sure artists
get compensated" or whatever.

I think it's more about protecting the existing system where artist exposure
is run by payola. When was the last time the record industry did anything
to indicate any interest in _anything_ that might help artists get exposure
based on popular opinion?

Tom

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gull at gull

Jul 19, 2007, 10:57 AM

Post #41 of 41 (1347 views)
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Re: A prediction is coming true, faster than I thought [In reply to]

On Jul 19, 2007, at 10:17 AM, Tom Dexter wrote:
> I think it's more about protecting the existing system where artist
> exposure
> is run by payola. When was the last time the record industry did
> anything
> to indicate any interest in _anything_ that might help artists get
> exposure
> based on popular opinion?

It's probably partly that. I also think that the record companies
have probably been ticked off for about the last 70 years that they
got cut out of radio licensing. (Stations pay songwriter royalties,
as part of a compulsory licensing scheme, but no royalties to record
companies.) Now they're hoping to use the shift to digital radio to
negotiate a piece of the action.

I hope they don't succeed, but I can understand why they're giving it
a shot. They're running a business and they'd be doing their
shareholders a disservice if they didn't try to grab for every
revenue stream possible. I think they erred when they initially
overreached, though. If they'd asked for a small, nominal payment
per song they probably would have met little resistance, but now they
have an all-out fight on their hands.

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