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Zap2it Labs Shutting Down?

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fpikus at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 1:18 PM

Post #126 of 202 (10050 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Jay R. Ashworth <jra [at] baylink> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 12:00:56PM -0700, Srikant Sharma wrote:
> > I assume their (zap2it/TMS) major complaint is the abuse of their facility
> > and the load on their servers.
>
> I believe this not to be their primary complaint.
>
> As I understand it, their primary complaint (about MythTV users, at
> least) appears to be that commercial packagers of Myth were setting up
> cookie-cutter boxes and selling them to end users with (presumably) the
> *same* Z2L account configured into them.
>
> Since Z2L's motivation for giving it away for free (aside from the
> screen scraping problem) was that it provided them useful penetration
> numbers and research, which this practice interfered with -- and since
> they *charge* commercial PVR software makers for that privilege -- they
> were annoyed.

So basically, if I buy a PC and install MythTV on it myself, it's ok,
but if I buy a PC with MythTV pre-installed, it's a problem? What if I
buy it, but then update it with new MythTv myself? What if I bought a
Dell and paid someone to install MythTv on it?

Z2L indeed charge commercial PVR makers, but commercial PVR makers
download the data themselves and resell it to PVR owners, so there is
a difference. Commercial PVRs are forever tied to the PVR vendor, PVR
vendors make money from service. If I buy a prebuilt MythTv box, I
don't have to talk to the builder ever again, so the builder makes
money only from the box, just like Dell does.

--
Fedor G Pikus (fpikus [at] gmail)
http://www.pikus.net
http://wild-light.com
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:19 PM

Post #127 of 202 (10045 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 01:17:46PM -0700, Brad DerManouelian wrote:
> > For it to be *true*, though, they'd have to be original, and not
> > derivative of the work of the program producers.
[ ... ]
> > No; those blurbs are almost certainly written by interns at either the
> > production company or the network. Generally.
>
> No, they generally get a paragraph and re-write it down to two lines.
> Not always easy. They have a whole team of people who do it and they
> have to pay them.

Yup. But as I noted, that makes their work derivative of the copyright
of the original writer's employer.

And see also "de minimis".

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:22 PM

Post #128 of 202 (10060 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 01:18:41PM -0700, Fedor Pikus wrote:
> > Since Z2L's motivation for giving it away for free (aside from the
> > screen scraping problem) was that it provided them useful penetration
> > numbers and research, which this practice interfered with -- and since
> > they *charge* commercial PVR software makers for that privilege -- they
> > were annoyed.
>
> So basically, if I buy a PC and install MythTV on it myself, it's ok,
> but if I buy a PC with MythTV pre-installed, it's a problem? What if I
> buy it, but then update it with new MythTv myself? What if I bought a
> Dell and paid someone to install MythTv on it?

I *believe* that the answer to that *used to be*: if you signed up for
DD *yourself*, then you were ok, no matter who built the machine.

The issue was that they lost track of the number of subs, because
multiple boxes were somehow merged...

though on reflection, I'm not sure that could in fact have been the
problem... because how do you deal with the lineup selection issue.

Hmmm... that was the only problem I could see that was rational... and
that can't happen. I'm as lost as everyone else now.

> Z2L indeed charge commercial PVR makers, but commercial PVR makers
> download the data themselves and resell it to PVR owners, so there is
> a difference. Commercial PVRs are forever tied to the PVR vendor, PVR
> vendors make money from service. If I buy a prebuilt MythTv box, I
> don't have to talk to the builder ever again, so the builder makes
> money only from the box, just like Dell does.

Sure; but I heard no noise suggesting that people were hubbing the DD
data -- again, lineup issues.

So this sounds like it must have specifically been "you paid someone to
build it for you; we don't want you; nyaah."

Not real impressed with that. Sorry, DD.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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ryan.goat at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 1:22 PM

Post #129 of 202 (10040 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Jay R. Ashworth <jra [at] baylink> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 10:05:44AM -0700, Gabe Rubin wrote:
> > Yes, but they can make contractual restrictions through terms of
> > service that prohibit screen scraping. While it is not a technical
> > means to prevent screen scraping, although I have no doubt they would
> > constantly change the system to frustrate screen scrapers, creating an
> > "arms war" of who can respond quicker, this is a legal means that TMS
> > has at its disposal.
>
> They can *say* it, but it's not enforceable, either practically, or --
> I think, and IANAL -- legally. If you make it publically available,
> it's *public*.
>
> Someone should actually be talking to the TitanTV people about this
> too, if they're not already.
>

TitanTV is TMS.
--
_____________
Ryan Patterson

jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:27 PM

Post #130 of 202 (10050 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 04:22:47PM -0400, ryan patterson wrote:
> Someone should actually be talking to the TitanTV people about this
> too, if they're not already.
>
> TitanTV is TMS.

Brad (I think) just said they were Gemstar/TVG.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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ryan.goat at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 1:27 PM

Post #131 of 202 (10031 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Mike LaPlante <mike [at] dividia> wrote:
>
>
>
> stuart wrote:
> > Chris Petersen wrote:
> >
> >> Srikant Sharma wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is it possible for us (mythtv-users) to convince them to share the
> >>> data with a very limited number of users? We users can later
> >>> distribute.propagate the data using some peer-to-peer protocol. This
> >>> will alleviate the load on their servers and we can still manage to
> >>> get the listings.
> >>>
> >> Their main concern is that there are people making money off of
> services
> >> that they are giving away for free. Though I don't speak for TMS, I
> can
> >> guarantee you that they'd never release listings data to the community
> >> for distribution (it was suggested once when DD was first established).
> >> Their whole point is that they don't mind individual users getting the
> >> data (hence offering it for free on zap2it.com), but if someone is
> >> selling a product that uses the TMS listings, they need to pay for the
> >> right to do so.
> >>
> >> To reiterate, bandwidth is likely not a major concern, but people
> >> violating the terms of the user agreement are. Without a way to
> prevent
> >> it, they're shutting down the entire service.
> >>
> >> -Chris
> >>
> >
> > What a mess. Needs some creative thinking... However, everything I
> > think of requires some work at the server end... Something TMS probably
> > doesn't want to do (or should not have to do) when they are giving away
> > a service for private individual use...
> >
> > Anyways...
> >
> > How's about setting up a subscription service that requires each user to
> > have a unique key to decode personally encoded data. You start out with
> > the current mythtv community. Then, water mark the data for half the
> > uses. If the water mark shows up in commercial use, flag those users and
> > repeat the process on half the remaining users. Repeat the process
> > until you identify the commercial user(s) and stop sending them data
> > they can decode with their key. Eventually you will weed out initial
> > commercial users. At such a point, start a new policy which restricts
> > creation of new accounts. That is, something like a cooling off period
> > of say 1 week. That way, if you get flagged you can't turn around and
> > create a new account right away. This would also make private users
> > more protective of their keys.
> >
> > Nothing is totally safe, and the above approach will take continuous
> > effort. And, dare I say it, sounds very Big Brother'ish. Anyone have a
> > better one?
> >
> > ---
> >
> > By the way - at least in the states - doesn't PBS transmit all local
> > listings (i.e. commercial and public stations)?
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mythtv-users mailing list
> > mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> > http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
> >
> I think the main point is Zap2it is fed up and doesn't have the
> resources to implement such things. They don't want to have to track
> down the violators, it costs money to put a system like that in place.
>
> Just let the Myth devs try and work something out with them. I'm sure
> Myth will find a way to survive.
>
> Mike

I think people are too caught up in the unauthorized use of the zap2it
data. Reading between the lines of the zap2it posting, I think the main
reason behind this is TMS is going to change the backend database structure
and they don't want to have to pay somebody to rewrite the datadirect client
that accesses the database. The unauthorized use by commercial entities (
i.e. a college student sells a few premade mythtv systems for extra money)
can not be significant. But it makes for a nice scapegoat.

--
_____________
Ryan Patterson

jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:35 PM

Post #132 of 202 (10060 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 04:27:51PM -0400, ryan patterson wrote:
> I think people are too caught up in the unauthorized use of the
> zap2it data. Reading between the lines of the zap2it posting,
> I think the main reason behind this is TMS is going to change
> the backend database structure and they don't want to have to
> pay somebody to rewrite the datadirect client that accesses the
> database. The unauthorized use by commercial entities ( i.e. a
> college student sells a few premade mythtv systems for extra money)
> can not be significant. But it makes for a nice scapegoat.

I like that answer even better.

Of course, they'd probably get 4 or 5 volunteers from here to do it in
their spare time (or subsidized by the base) who are better DB
programmers than the people they already pay, but...

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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Braindead at diablops

Jun 20, 2007, 1:36 PM

Post #133 of 202 (10051 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:18:41 -0700
"Fedor Pikus" <fpikus [at] gmail> wrote:

> On 6/20/07, Jay R. Ashworth <jra [at] baylink> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 12:00:56PM -0700, Srikant Sharma wrote:
> > > I assume their (zap2it/TMS) major complaint is the abuse of
> > > their facility and the load on their servers.
> >
> > I believe this not to be their primary complaint.
> >
<snip>
> >
> > Since Z2L's motivation for giving it away for free (aside from the
> > screen scraping problem) was that it provided them useful
> > penetration numbers and research, which this practice interfered
> > with -- and since they *charge* commercial PVR software makers for
> > that privilege -- they were annoyed.
>
> So basically, if I buy a PC and install MythTV on it myself, it's ok,
> but if I buy a PC with MythTV pre-installed, it's a problem? What if I
> buy it, but then update it with new MythTv myself? What if I bought a
> Dell and paid someone to install MythTv on it?

Not necessarily, if you change the setting to use *your* account on Zap2It it's not a problem. It's that the re-sellers are using one account on all the machines they resell and not requiring end users to setup their own account and configure MythTV with that data.

This would be like someone selling some Internet appliance and using a single dial-up ISP account on all of them...

That's if I understand the situation correctly. ;-)
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:36 PM

Post #134 of 202 (10055 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 04:36:27PM -0400, Braindead wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:18:41 -0700
> "Fedor Pikus" <fpikus [at] gmail> wrote:
> > So basically, if I buy a PC and install MythTV on it myself, it's ok,
> > but if I buy a PC with MythTV pre-installed, it's a problem? What if I
> > buy it, but then update it with new MythTv myself? What if I bought a
> > Dell and paid someone to install MythTv on it?
>
> Not necessarily, if you change the setting to use *your* account on
> Zap2It it's not a problem. It's that the re-sellers are using one
> account on all the machines they resell and not requiring end users to
> setup their own account and configure MythTV with that data.
>
> This would be like someone selling some Internet appliance and using a
> single dial-up ISP account on all of them...
>
> That's if I understand the situation correctly. ;-)

Yeah, but see my posting from 10 minutes ago: "Line-ups."

I don't think that's possible.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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Braindead at diablops

Jun 20, 2007, 1:50 PM

Post #135 of 202 (10052 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:36:38 -0400
"Jay R. Ashworth" <jra [at] baylink> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 04:36:27PM -0400, Braindead wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:18:41 -0700
> > "Fedor Pikus" <fpikus [at] gmail> wrote:
> > > So basically, if I buy a PC and install MythTV on it myself, it's
> > > ok, but if I buy a PC with MythTV pre-installed, it's a problem?
> > > What if I buy it, but then update it with new MythTv myself? What
> > > if I bought a Dell and paid someone to install MythTv on it?
> >
> > Not necessarily, if you change the setting to use *your* account on
> > Zap2It it's not a problem. It's that the re-sellers are using one
> > account on all the machines they resell and not requiring end users
> > to setup their own account and configure MythTV with that data.
> >
> > This would be like someone selling some Internet appliance and
> > using a single dial-up ISP account on all of them...
> >
> > That's if I understand the situation correctly. ;-)
>
> Yeah, but see my posting from 10 minutes ago: "Line-ups."
>
> I don't think that's possible.

Good point, you're right.. unless they all had the same lineup..
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jakep_82 at hotmail

Jun 20, 2007, 1:52 PM

Post #136 of 202 (10066 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

>From: "Jay R. Ashworth" <jra [at] baylink>
>Reply-To: Discussion about mythtv <mythtv-users [at] mythtv>
>To: mythtv-users [at] mythtv
>Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Zap2it Labs Shutting Down?
>Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:36:38 -0400
>
>On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 04:36:27PM -0400, Braindead wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:18:41 -0700
> > "Fedor Pikus" <fpikus [at] gmail> wrote:
> > > So basically, if I buy a PC and install MythTV on it myself, it's ok,
> > > but if I buy a PC with MythTV pre-installed, it's a problem? What if I
> > > buy it, but then update it with new MythTv myself? What if I bought a
> > > Dell and paid someone to install MythTv on it?
> >
> > Not necessarily, if you change the setting to use *your* account on
> > Zap2It it's not a problem. It's that the re-sellers are using one
> > account on all the machines they resell and not requiring end users to
> > setup their own account and configure MythTV with that data.
> >
> > This would be like someone selling some Internet appliance and using a
> > single dial-up ISP account on all of them...
> >
> > That's if I understand the situation correctly. ;-)
>
>Yeah, but see my posting from 10 minutes ago: "Line-ups."
>
>I don't think that's possible.
>
>Cheers,
>-- jra
>--

A guy that goes by the name of Human over on the Knoppmyth board said he
contacted zap2it when they began complaining about commercial abuse. He's
the developer of the Dragon system at mythic.tv. He said zap2it responded
and told him his company was *NOT* part of the problem. So it seems to me
this has nothing to do with MythTV or the MythTV system builders.

Jake

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lists at forevermore

Jun 20, 2007, 2:22 PM

Post #137 of 202 (10029 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

ryan patterson wrote:
> I think people are too caught up in the unauthorized use of the
> zap2it data. Reading between the lines of the zap2it posting, I
> think the main reason behind this is TMS is going to change the
> backend database structure and they don't want to have to pay
> somebody to rewrite the datadirect client that accesses the database.

Please let me clarify. DataDirect is *not* going away. Labs.zap2it.com
*is*. DataDirect is normally a for-pay service offered by TMS that they
happened to offer for free to certain groups like MythTV.

-Chris

Attachments:

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gaberubin at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 2:36 PM

Post #138 of 202 (10041 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Jay R. Ashworth <jra [at] baylink> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 10:05:44AM -0700, Gabe Rubin wrote:
> > Yes, but they can make contractual restrictions through terms of
> > service that prohibit screen scraping. While it is not a technical
> > means to prevent screen scraping, although I have no doubt they would
> > constantly change the system to frustrate screen scrapers, creating an
> > "arms war" of who can respond quicker, this is a legal means that TMS
> > has at its disposal.
>
> They can *say* it, but it's not enforceable, either practically, or --
> I think, and IANAL -- legally. If you make it publically available,
> it's *public*.

They can make it terms of the service for viewing their web page or
using their service, and a violation would violate those terms, and be
breach of contract, trespass to chattels, and potentially other causes
of actions. Look up the eBay v. Bidder's Edge case, which did
essentially this. Rigistrar.com v. Verio also is similar, and there
are some other cases on this same factual setting that I am
forgetting.
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mythlists at marcuswatkins

Jun 20, 2007, 2:51 PM

Post #139 of 202 (10048 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Chris Petersen wrote:
> ryan patterson wrote:
>
>> I think people are too caught up in the unauthorized use of the
>> zap2it data. Reading between the lines of the zap2it posting, I
>> think the main reason behind this is TMS is going to change the
>> backend database structure and they don't want to have to pay
>> somebody to rewrite the datadirect client that accesses the database.
>>
>
> Please let me clarify. DataDirect is *not* going away. Labs.zap2it.com
> *is*. DataDirect is normally a for-pay service offered by TMS that they
> happened to offer for free to certain groups like MythTV.
>
> -Chris
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
Hi Chris,

I read your earlier note about leaving a bad taste by having to pay for
the data. I think that most users would understand, and the others would
be free to maintain xmltv for a no cost solution.

Most users understand that there's a cost to this data, and it's not
necessary that mythtv be free as in beer, but free as in speech. (At
least that's my reasoning, I don't want someone turning off my DVI
output at some later date because they want to rake me over the coals
some more).

At any rate, if some solution in the future requires raising initial
capital to start offering a for-pay service, please let the community
know before writing it off. I, for one, would be willing to put up a
large chunk in the beginning to help get it up and running.

Marcus Watkins

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james at mauibay

Jun 20, 2007, 2:51 PM

Post #140 of 202 (10027 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Michael Lynch wrote:
>> I was wrong. It appears to be javascript driven so maybe this will be
>> a simpler task.
>>
>> John
>
>
> http://www.tv-now.com/thegrids.htm?Zip=<your zip code here>

Has incorrect and incomplete data for all the zipcodes in my county.
Useless for my area.

> Text based listings also
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
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matt at mossholder

Jun 20, 2007, 2:53 PM

Post #141 of 202 (10066 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 14:36 -0700, Gabe Rubin wrote:
> They can make it terms of the service for viewing their web page or
> using their service, and a violation would violate those terms, and be
> breach of contract, trespass to chattels, and potentially other causes
> of actions. Look up the eBay v. Bidder's Edge case, which did
> essentially this. Rigistrar.com v. Verio also is similar, and there
> are some other cases on this same factual setting that I am
> forgetting.

I think in the cases above, however, the user is required to have an
account with the provider of the service, which to my non-lawyer mind,
requires the user have some sort of account or a click-through
acknowledgement of the ToS. Otherwise, you could rightfully claim to
have never seen the terms, and so could not be bound.

If the information is on web pages are publicly available, the ToS are
pretty much out the window.

--Matt

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eric-mythtv at skoozdag

Jun 20, 2007, 3:08 PM

Post #142 of 202 (10035 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

I wonder if THIS has anything to do with it the announcement.

http://www.boursorama.com/infos/actualites/detail_actu_societes.phtml?news=4322088

--Eric

Eric Holt wrote:
> I just saw this posted on the KnoppMyth forums, and for sure, I checked
> out the Zap2it Labs website, and there is the announcement:
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skd5aner at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 3:20 PM

Post #143 of 202 (10055 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/19/07, Eric Holt <eric-mythtv [at] skoozdag> wrote:
> I just saw this posted on the KnoppMyth forums, and for sure, I checked
> out the Zap2it Labs website, and there is the announcement:
>
> http://labs.zap2it.com/
>
>
> -----
> IMPORTANT MESSAGE:
>
> For several years we have offered a free TV listings service to
> hobbyists for their own personal, noncommercial use. In October of 2004
> we posted here an open letter saying the future of Zap2it Labs was at
> risk because of certain growing misuses of the Zap2it Labs data.
> Unfortunately this misuse has continued and grown. These misuses,
> combined with other business factors have led to the decision to
> discontinue Zap2it Labs effective September 1, 2007.
>
> We thank those users who have honored the terms of the agreement, and we
> suggest you consider the many TV listings options offered by the
> commercial licensees of TMS TV listings data.
>
> If you would like to discuss how to license TV listings for commercial
> use, please let us know by e-mail (labs [at] zap2it) and include your
> company name, telephone number and the best time to reach you. We will
> respond to your inquiry as soon as possible.
>
> We anticipate this decision will generate discussion and invite you to
> respond via the Zap2it Labs forum. We will do our best to respond to
> relevant questions posted on this forum in a timely manner.
> -----
>
>
>
> ~Aryq~
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

I have zero complaints about any of the devs or their strategies for
myth, but I just feel like I could say "I called it!":
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/262045?search_string=TMS;#262045

Matt
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ylee at pobox

Jun 20, 2007, 3:45 PM

Post #144 of 202 (10041 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Marcus Watkins <mythlists [at] marcuswatkins> says:
> I, for one, would be willing to put up a large chunk in the
> beginning to help get it up and running.

Me too. Of the reasons I built a MythTV box instead of sticking with
my (Lifetime) TiVo, "MythTV doesn't have monthly fees!" was at the
very, very bottom of the list. I'm ready and willing to step up
financially as necessary.

--
Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox> | +1 650 776 7763 | San Francisco CA US
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beww at beww

Jun 20, 2007, 3:49 PM

Post #145 of 202 (10033 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Yeechang Lee wrote:
> Marcus Watkins <mythlists [at] marcuswatkins> says:
>> I, for one, would be willing to put up a large chunk in the
>> beginning to help get it up and running.
>
> Me too. Of the reasons I built a MythTV box instead of sticking with
> my (Lifetime) TiVo, "MythTV doesn't have monthly fees!" was at the
> very, very bottom of the list. I'm ready and willing to step up
> financially as necessary.
>

I'll add a "me too", but I really don't think it is a money issue, at
least not at this point.

BEWW

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ivan.kowalenko at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 3:57 PM

Post #146 of 202 (10041 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

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On Jun 20, 2007, at 09.54, John Drescher wrote:

>
> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:28 -0400, ryan patterson wrote:
>
> >
> > $60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would
> be way
> > over priced.
>
> Do you subscribe to callerid, three way calling, voice mail ...
> from your local phone company? I mean these services cost the
> company pennies a year per customer but they charge $5 to $10 per
> month per service.

Same deal with a lot of cell phone services: 15� for 170 bytes of low
priority data versus 0.001� for one minute of 6Kb/s high priority,
low latency data.

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skd5aner at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 3:59 PM

Post #147 of 202 (10035 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Srikant Sharma <srikant.sharma [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: I am very new to mythtv so just disregard this mail if it does
> not make sense.
>
> I gather that the main complaint of zap2it is the abuse of their
> system/facility by users.
> They apparently do not have problem is sharing the listings with end-users
> like us, so far.
>
> Is it possible for us (mythtv-users) to convince them to share the data
> with a very limited
> number of users? We users can later distribute.propagate the data using
> some peer-to-peer
> protocol. This will alleviate the load on their servers and we can still
> manage to get the listings.
>
> I am sure mythtv users will not mind to share the listings with neighbors,
> if there is some way to
> get them an distribute them.
>
> --
> Srikant
>
>

Not a bad idea. Perhaps Myth could somehow proxy the listings and
then distribute to the user base. Now weither that's peer-to-peer or
some client-server method, it would still require some form of
network bandwidth considerations.

Matt
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jakep_82 at hotmail

Jun 20, 2007, 4:31 PM

Post #148 of 202 (10011 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

>From: Matt <skd5aner [at] gmail>
>Reply-To: Discussion about mythtv <mythtv-users [at] mythtv>
>To: "Discussion about mythtv" <mythtv-users [at] mythtv>
>Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Zap2it Labs Shutting Down?
>Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:59:12 -0400
>
>On 6/20/07, Srikant Sharma <srikant.sharma [at] gmail> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Disclaimer: I am very new to mythtv so just disregard this mail if it
>does
> > not make sense.
> >
> > I gather that the main complaint of zap2it is the abuse of their
> > system/facility by users.
> > They apparently do not have problem is sharing the listings with
>end-users
> > like us, so far.
> >
> > Is it possible for us (mythtv-users) to convince them to share the data
> > with a very limited
> > number of users? We users can later distribute.propagate the data using
> > some peer-to-peer
> > protocol. This will alleviate the load on their servers and we can still
> > manage to get the listings.
> >
> > I am sure mythtv users will not mind to share the listings with
>neighbors,
> > if there is some way to
> > get them an distribute them.
> >
> > --
> > Srikant
> >
> >
>
>
>Not a bad idea. Perhaps Myth could somehow proxy the listings and
>then distribute to the user base. Now weither that's peer-to-peer or
>some client-server method, it would still require some form of
>network bandwidth considerations.
>
>Matt

This does absolutely nothing to address the problem they specifically cite
in the letter to the community. They're shutting it down because of
commercial abuse of the data, not bandwidth. Setting up a P2P network to
share that same data makes it just as easy, if not easier, for commercial
abuse as the current DataDirect system.

Jake

_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07

ivan.kowalenko at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 5:19 PM

Post #149 of 202 (10034 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

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On Jun 20, 2007, at 12.12, Cecil Watson wrote:

>> It's people knowingly violating the license with Myth systems that
>> made
>> this inevitable. Some continued to violate even after being
>> advised by
>> TMS of the violation.
> This is a crap statement. Can you prove that this is the result of
> MythTV users?

What about prefab'd Myth systems?

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lists at forevermore

Jun 20, 2007, 5:20 PM

Post #150 of 202 (10034 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 10:41:31AM -0700, Chris Petersen wrote:
>> Mark Phillip wrote:
>>> Hey folks, the quote of $500/month for data is wrong.
>> That was $500/month per provider lineup... and there are likely
>> dozens/hundreds of lineups, so your $12k number doesn't sound so far off.
>
> Last time I looked, there were 210 DMAs; they're going to run between 0
> and 9 or 10 lineups (DMAs cover multiple metros, figure one broadcast
> OTA lineup per DMA plus one or 2 cable systems), I would speculate,
> with, *just from my hip*, a mean of 2.3 and an SD of maybe 2? 12K is
> only 24 lineups, so *some* number in this math is wrong, but I'm not
> sure which one. You may get quantity pricing.

It's called "bulk pricing". :)

-Chris

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