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srikant.sharma at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 12:00 PM

Post #101 of 202 (10412 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Michael Jones <mythlist [at] michaelandholly> wrote:
>
> Something like a Tier 1.. Tier x NTP server...
>
> That would work provided that Zap2It/TMS would allow us to
> "redistribute" their data on our own.

Precisely.

I assume their (zap2it/TMS) major complaint is the abuse of their facility
and the load on their servers.
So far, they were willingly sharing the data with all of us. They did not
have any complaints about what we did with our data.

However, if their complaint is something else and they not willing to share
the data with us then we
cannot follow this route. :(

Anyhow, if we somehow manage to get data from ANY source for EVERY region,
then we can redistribute
using peer-to-peer method easily without overloading the available source
and forcing them to shutdown.

--
Srikant

lists at forevermore

Jun 20, 2007, 12:02 PM

Post #102 of 202 (10434 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Srikant Sharma wrote:
> Is it possible for us (mythtv-users) to convince them to share the
> data with a very limited number of users? We users can later
> distribute.propagate the data using some peer-to-peer protocol. This
> will alleviate the load on their servers and we can still manage to
> get the listings.

Their main concern is that there are people making money off of services
that they are giving away for free. Though I don't speak for TMS, I can
guarantee you that they'd never release listings data to the community
for distribution (it was suggested once when DD was first established).
Their whole point is that they don't mind individual users getting the
data (hence offering it for free on zap2it.com), but if someone is
selling a product that uses the TMS listings, they need to pay for the
right to do so.

To reiterate, bandwidth is likely not a major concern, but people
violating the terms of the user agreement are. Without a way to prevent
it, they're shutting down the entire service.

-Chris

Attachments:

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dsr-myth at tao

Jun 20, 2007, 12:06 PM

Post #103 of 202 (10435 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:26:33AM -0700, Chris Petersen wrote:
> Dan Ritter wrote:
> > You can't copyright a title of a creative work. You can apply
> > for a trademark, but that doesn't restrict people from talking
> > about it. (I bought a box of Kleenex tissues yesterday. Want to
> > learn how to configure a cisco 2600?) And patents don't apply.
>
> Call it trademark, then. Either way, *most* tv show names belong to
> someone, and you can't legally publish information about them without
> proper attribution.

Nonsense. Not only do I not need proper attribution to tell you
that my local CBS affiliate is re-running "Three's Company"
episode #103 at 3PM this afternoon, I don't need anyone's
permission.

A trademark restricts commercial products or services that
compete with the trademark holder's product or service. It means
that you can't sell a beverage and call it Coca-Cola. It even
means that you can't give away a brown, fizzy, sugary,
caffeinated beverage and call it Coca-Cola -- but you can sell
actual Coca-Cola and call it that.

> TMS's descriptions do probably fall under "creative work", though.

Arguably yes, arguably no. If there was criticism involved,
definitely yes. A factual summary may not be protected.

-dsr- not a lawyer, but I deal with them.

--
.. .----. -- .-. . .- -.. .. -. --. -.-- --- ..- .-. -- .- .. .-.. .-.-.- .-- .... --- . .-.. ... . .. ... ..--..
http://tao.merseine.nu/~dsr/eula.html is hereby incorporated by reference.
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mythlist at michaelandholly

Jun 20, 2007, 12:12 PM

Post #104 of 202 (10434 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Chris,

Has there been an offer from the MythTV development community to help
figure out a way to preserve this agreement?

- Michael

On Jun 20, 2007, at 3:02 PM, Chris Petersen wrote:

> Srikant Sharma wrote:
>> Is it possible for us (mythtv-users) to convince them to share the
>> data with a very limited number of users? We users can later
>> distribute.propagate the data using some peer-to-peer protocol. This
>> will alleviate the load on their servers and we can still manage to
>> get the listings.
>
> Their main concern is that there are people making money off of
> services
> that they are giving away for free. Though I don't speak for TMS,
> I can
> guarantee you that they'd never release listings data to the community
> for distribution (it was suggested once when DD was first
> established).
> Their whole point is that they don't mind individual users getting
> the
> data (hence offering it for free on zap2it.com), but if someone is
> selling a product that uses the TMS listings, they need to pay for the
> right to do so.
>
> To reiterate, bandwidth is likely not a major concern, but people
> violating the terms of the user agreement are. Without a way to
> prevent
> it, they're shutting down the entire service.
>
> -Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

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mythlist at michaelandholly

Jun 20, 2007, 12:14 PM

Post #105 of 202 (10436 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Sorry for multiple messages on a single thought.. but my send finger
overrode the rest of my reflexes..

.. or even manage some process that acts as a "proxy" to their
server? I know.. this would probably figure in with
"redistribution".. but it might be worth considering..

- Michael

On Jun 20, 2007, at 3:02 PM, Chris Petersen wrote:

> Srikant Sharma wrote:
>> Is it possible for us (mythtv-users) to convince them to share the
>> data with a very limited number of users? We users can later
>> distribute.propagate the data using some peer-to-peer protocol. This
>> will alleviate the load on their servers and we can still manage to
>> get the listings.
>
> Their main concern is that there are people making money off of
> services
> that they are giving away for free. Though I don't speak for TMS,
> I can
> guarantee you that they'd never release listings data to the community
> for distribution (it was suggested once when DD was first
> established).
> Their whole point is that they don't mind individual users getting
> the
> data (hence offering it for free on zap2it.com), but if someone is
> selling a product that uses the TMS listings, they need to pay for the
> right to do so.
>
> To reiterate, bandwidth is likely not a major concern, but people
> violating the terms of the user agreement are. Without a way to
> prevent
> it, they're shutting down the entire service.
>
> -Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

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myth at dermanouelian

Jun 20, 2007, 12:14 PM

Post #106 of 202 (10423 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Jun 20, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:26:33AM -0700, Chris Petersen wrote:
>> Dan Ritter wrote:
>>> You can't copyright a title of a creative work. You can apply
>>> for a trademark, but that doesn't restrict people from talking
>>> about it. (I bought a box of Kleenex tissues yesterday. Want to
>>> learn how to configure a cisco 2600?) And patents don't apply.
>>
>> Call it trademark, then. Either way, *most* tv show names belong to
>> someone, and you can't legally publish information about them without
>> proper attribution.
>
> Nonsense. Not only do I not need proper attribution to tell you
> that my local CBS affiliate is re-running "Three's Company"
> episode #103 at 3PM this afternoon, I don't need anyone's
> permission.
>
> A trademark restricts commercial products or services that
> compete with the trademark holder's product or service. It means
> that you can't sell a beverage and call it Coca-Cola. It even
> means that you can't give away a brown, fizzy, sugary,
> caffeinated beverage and call it Coca-Cola -- but you can sell
> actual Coca-Cola and call it that.
>
>> TMS's descriptions do probably fall under "creative work", though.
>
> Arguably yes, arguably no. If there was criticism involved,
> definitely yes. A factual summary may not be protected.
>
> -dsr- not a lawyer, but I deal with them.

TMS has told me directly that the descriptions are their most
valuable and best-protected asset. I imagine because it's the only
piece they create and can claim ownership to.
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mythlist at michaelandholly

Jun 20, 2007, 12:19 PM

Post #107 of 202 (10431 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

So I wonder if they would be willing to keep publishing the data
without their "proprietary" descriptions? This could definitely
cause other issues, but it would be better than loosing the service
completely..

On Jun 20, 2007, at 3:14 PM, Brad DerManouelian wrote:

> On Jun 20, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:26:33AM -0700, Chris Petersen wrote:
>>> Dan Ritter wrote:
>>>> You can't copyright a title of a creative work. You can apply
>>>> for a trademark, but that doesn't restrict people from talking
>>>> about it. (I bought a box of Kleenex tissues yesterday. Want to
>>>> learn how to configure a cisco 2600?) And patents don't apply.
>>>
>>> Call it trademark, then. Either way, *most* tv show names belong to
>>> someone, and you can't legally publish information about them
>>> without
>>> proper attribution.
>>
>> Nonsense. Not only do I not need proper attribution to tell you
>> that my local CBS affiliate is re-running "Three's Company"
>> episode #103 at 3PM this afternoon, I don't need anyone's
>> permission.
>>
>> A trademark restricts commercial products or services that
>> compete with the trademark holder's product or service. It means
>> that you can't sell a beverage and call it Coca-Cola. It even
>> means that you can't give away a brown, fizzy, sugary,
>> caffeinated beverage and call it Coca-Cola -- but you can sell
>> actual Coca-Cola and call it that.
>>
>>> TMS's descriptions do probably fall under "creative work", though.
>>
>> Arguably yes, arguably no. If there was criticism involved,
>> definitely yes. A factual summary may not be protected.
>>
>> -dsr- not a lawyer, but I deal with them.
>
> TMS has told me directly that the descriptions are their most
> valuable and best-protected asset. I imagine because it's the only
> piece they create and can claim ownership to.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

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myth at dermanouelian

Jun 20, 2007, 12:26 PM

Post #108 of 202 (10421 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Jun 20, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Michael Jones wrote:

> So I wonder if they would be willing to keep publishing the data
> without their "proprietary" descriptions? This could definitely
> cause other issues, but it would be better than loosing the service
> completely..

The point is that the listing data is valuable to us. The
descriptions are the only piece they own which is of value to them.
They will never separate them because then no one would ever need to
pay them for the truly valuable information.
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 12:28 PM

Post #109 of 202 (10418 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:40:29AM -0500, Mark Phillip wrote:
> I run a startup that licenses data from TMS. The first quote they gave
> me was $12,000 a month for all channels for all states in the U.S.
> Canada costs extra. Thankfully my site is a Sports/TV mashup, so I
> don't need the full data set, but it's still very expensive.

The data would be the cheap part. Unless you did something smarter
than centralized servers.

*Has* anyone called Google?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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stuart at xnet

Jun 20, 2007, 12:31 PM

Post #110 of 202 (10432 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Chris Petersen wrote:
> Srikant Sharma wrote:
>> Is it possible for us (mythtv-users) to convince them to share the
>> data with a very limited number of users? We users can later
>> distribute.propagate the data using some peer-to-peer protocol. This
>> will alleviate the load on their servers and we can still manage to
>> get the listings.
>
> Their main concern is that there are people making money off of services
> that they are giving away for free. Though I don't speak for TMS, I can
> guarantee you that they'd never release listings data to the community
> for distribution (it was suggested once when DD was first established).
> Their whole point is that they don't mind individual users getting the
> data (hence offering it for free on zap2it.com), but if someone is
> selling a product that uses the TMS listings, they need to pay for the
> right to do so.
>
> To reiterate, bandwidth is likely not a major concern, but people
> violating the terms of the user agreement are. Without a way to prevent
> it, they're shutting down the entire service.
>
> -Chris

What a mess. Needs some creative thinking... However, everything I
think of requires some work at the server end... Something TMS probably
doesn't want to do (or should not have to do) when they are giving away
a service for private individual use...

Anyways...

How's about setting up a subscription service that requires each user to
have a unique key to decode personally encoded data. You start out with
the current mythtv community. Then, water mark the data for half the
uses. If the water mark shows up in commercial use, flag those users and
repeat the process on half the remaining users. Repeat the process
until you identify the commercial user(s) and stop sending them data
they can decode with their key. Eventually you will weed out initial
commercial users. At such a point, start a new policy which restricts
creation of new accounts. That is, something like a cooling off period
of say 1 week. That way, if you get flagged you can't turn around and
create a new account right away. This would also make private users
more protective of their keys.

Nothing is totally safe, and the above approach will take continuous
effort. And, dare I say it, sounds very Big Brother'ish. Anyone have a
better one?

---

By the way - at least in the states - doesn't PBS transmit all local
listings (i.e. commercial and public stations)?

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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 12:32 PM

Post #111 of 202 (10429 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 10:41:31AM -0700, Chris Petersen wrote:
> Mark Phillip wrote:
> > Hey folks, the quote of $500/month for data is wrong.
>
> That was $500/month per provider lineup... and there are likely
> dozens/hundreds of lineups, so your $12k number doesn't sound so far off.

Last time I looked, there were 210 DMAs; they're going to run between 0
and 9 or 10 lineups (DMAs cover multiple metros, figure one broadcast
OTA lineup per DMA plus one or 2 cable systems), I would speculate,
with, *just from my hip*, a mean of 2.3 and an SD of maybe 2? 12K is
only 24 lineups, so *some* number in this math is wrong, but I'm not
sure which one. You may get quantity pricing.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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beww at beww

Jun 20, 2007, 12:34 PM

Post #112 of 202 (10433 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:40:29AM -0500, Mark Phillip wrote:
>> I run a startup that licenses data from TMS. The first quote they gave
>> me was $12,000 a month for all channels for all states in the U.S.
>> Canada costs extra. Thankfully my site is a Sports/TV mashup, so I
>> don't need the full data set, but it's still very expensive.
>
> The data would be the cheap part. Unless you did something smarter
> than centralized servers.
>
> *Has* anyone called Google?

If anyone had the first thing Google would do would be to attempt to
contact TMS. As was pointed out this could do nothing but confuse and
delay the efforts of the developers.

The devs have done quite well by us so far, why is everybody trying to
grab the yoke now that things might get sticky.

Just let them do what they think is necessary, and let us know about it
when and if "it is ready", just like they have done before, with great
results.
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 12:34 PM

Post #113 of 202 (10419 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 10:05:44AM -0700, Gabe Rubin wrote:
> Yes, but they can make contractual restrictions through terms of
> service that prohibit screen scraping. While it is not a technical
> means to prevent screen scraping, although I have no doubt they would
> constantly change the system to frustrate screen scrapers, creating an
> "arms war" of who can respond quicker, this is a legal means that TMS
> has at its disposal.

They can *say* it, but it's not enforceable, either practically, or --
I think, and IANAL -- legally. If you make it publically available,
it's *public*.

Someone should actually be talking to the TitanTV people about this
too, if they're not already.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 12:37 PM

Post #114 of 202 (10428 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:04:35AM -0700, Chris Petersen wrote:
> Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> > Of course it doesn't mean that. If you post it, *someone* can scrape
> > it, if they're motivated enough. Raw factual directory data (which
> > this is) isn't copyrightable anyway; Feist v Rural makes that pretty
> > clear. If there's *creative* writing in the episode descriptions, then
> > maybe, but IANAL.
>
> Show names, episode titles, etc. are all copyright to the respective tv
> networks that own them. They license use of these names to TMS, who can
> then sell them at whatever price the market can bear.

You have case citations?

They're factual data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications_v._Rural_Telephone_Service

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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mike at dividia

Jun 20, 2007, 12:39 PM

Post #115 of 202 (10417 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

stuart wrote:
> Chris Petersen wrote:
>
>> Srikant Sharma wrote:
>>
>>> Is it possible for us (mythtv-users) to convince them to share the
>>> data with a very limited number of users? We users can later
>>> distribute.propagate the data using some peer-to-peer protocol. This
>>> will alleviate the load on their servers and we can still manage to
>>> get the listings.
>>>
>> Their main concern is that there are people making money off of services
>> that they are giving away for free. Though I don't speak for TMS, I can
>> guarantee you that they'd never release listings data to the community
>> for distribution (it was suggested once when DD was first established).
>> Their whole point is that they don't mind individual users getting the
>> data (hence offering it for free on zap2it.com), but if someone is
>> selling a product that uses the TMS listings, they need to pay for the
>> right to do so.
>>
>> To reiterate, bandwidth is likely not a major concern, but people
>> violating the terms of the user agreement are. Without a way to prevent
>> it, they're shutting down the entire service.
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>
> What a mess. Needs some creative thinking... However, everything I
> think of requires some work at the server end... Something TMS probably
> doesn't want to do (or should not have to do) when they are giving away
> a service for private individual use...
>
> Anyways...
>
> How's about setting up a subscription service that requires each user to
> have a unique key to decode personally encoded data. You start out with
> the current mythtv community. Then, water mark the data for half the
> uses. If the water mark shows up in commercial use, flag those users and
> repeat the process on half the remaining users. Repeat the process
> until you identify the commercial user(s) and stop sending them data
> they can decode with their key. Eventually you will weed out initial
> commercial users. At such a point, start a new policy which restricts
> creation of new accounts. That is, something like a cooling off period
> of say 1 week. That way, if you get flagged you can't turn around and
> create a new account right away. This would also make private users
> more protective of their keys.
>
> Nothing is totally safe, and the above approach will take continuous
> effort. And, dare I say it, sounds very Big Brother'ish. Anyone have a
> better one?
>
> ---
>
> By the way - at least in the states - doesn't PBS transmit all local
> listings (i.e. commercial and public stations)?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
I think the main point is Zap2it is fed up and doesn't have the
resources to implement such things. They don't want to have to track
down the violators, it costs money to put a system like that in place.

Just let the Myth devs try and work something out with them. I'm sure
Myth will find a way to survive.

Mike
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 12:39 PM

Post #116 of 202 (10414 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 02:20:54PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> You can't copyright the factual information about a work or
> newsworthy event either, as Major League Baseball, Inc. has been
> finding out, repeatedly.

Sports accounts are perhaps the best analogy to our current situation,
IMO. I hadn't realized the leagues were losing those cases, but I'm
glad to hear they are.

> Now, TMS may have a contract with each and every television
> station in North America... but I suspect that they don't, and
> that they may not even have an exclusivity clause. Consider PBS
> stations.

Indeed. Likely, they're the only ones doing it because they're the
only ones doing.

Titan, though, does *not* appear to be only getting it's data from TMS;
their listings often differ (and Titan is often more accurate).

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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gravityhammer at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 12:53 PM

Post #117 of 202 (10422 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Jay R. Ashworth <jra [at] baylink> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 02:20:54PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > You can't copyright the factual information about a work or
> > newsworthy event either, as Major League Baseball, Inc. has been
> > finding out, repeatedly.
>
> Sports accounts are perhaps the best analogy to our current situation,
> IMO. I hadn't realized the leagues were losing those cases, but I'm
> glad to hear they are.
>
> > Now, TMS may have a contract with each and every television
> > station in North America... but I suspect that they don't, and
> > that they may not even have an exclusivity clause. Consider PBS
> > stations.
>
> Indeed. Likely, they're the only ones doing it because they're the
> only ones doing.
>
> Titan, though, does *not* appear to be only getting it's data from TMS;
> their listings often differ (and Titan is often more accurate).

TitanTV gets their listings from TVGuide.
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mythtv at frouse3

Jun 20, 2007, 12:58 PM

Post #118 of 202 (10426 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

> Ok, to clarify some information and hopefully calm down some of the
> frantic chatter, here's an overview of what is going on:
>
> The MythTV developers are currently working with TMS to see if there is
> a way we can purchase/resell listings data to MythTV users. We are
> awaiting numbers both for cost and for the number of people actively
> using DD data (to give us an estimate of what the per-user cost might
> end up being). It's still completely undecided whether this would
> happen as a function of MythTV or if a new org would be created to deal
> with it. Don't ask, we don't know yet. If something comes of this, I'm
> sure that there will be an announcement.
>
> We are also looking at other providers, as well as the option of working
> with other projects (both open and closed source) to band together on a
> similar service.
>
> As Daniel said, we are also considering the idea of contacting
> individual stations directly and working out deals to build our own
> service, like the group in Sweden did. I assume that if we did this,
> we'd end up working with the xmltv folks, too.
>
> ---
>
> Now... there are also some problems with many of the ideas that have
> come up. Here are a few:
>
> Charging for data will leave a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of
> MythTV users, which means we could lose a sizeable chunk of the user base.
>
> Not charging for data, but hosting it ourselves, means that we'd run
> into the same problem as zap2it with commercial groups abusing the
> system. Using hashing algorithms/etc to track "legit" MythTV
> installations is impossible due to the whole "open source" thing.

If one of the main concerns of tracking legit users is in question here.
Maybe some sort of p2p solution can be devised to help lower bandwidth
costs, and to try to keep content to mythtv users specifically.

If labs.zap2it began giving the data freely to keep from xmltv users from
scrapping, then I assume web performance and user access was a big concern
for them. So changing web pages was not only to keep us guessing, but to
help with performance/bandwidth issues.

Maybe a centralized solution with some p2p extensions dumping right to
mythtv would be a good compromise.

Ryan

> Ad-supported models are great except for the fact that MythTV is an open
> source project. It would be *very* easy for someone to maintain an
> "ad-free" patch set, and people could get the listings without seeing
> any ads.
>
> Someone owns the rights to program titles/etc. xmltv can give users
> access to this info because the user downloads the info directly. If we
> want to host this in a central repository somewhere, we will likely need
> permission to do so.
>
> ---
>
> Once we figure something out, I'm sure there will be an official working
> group put together, but I would strongly encourage individuals not
> directly related to development to avoid contacting anyone on behalf of
> the MythTV community. It creates confusion and will only slow down the
> progress by people officially involved.
>
> -Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
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> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
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>

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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:00 PM

Post #119 of 202 (10426 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:26:33AM -0700, Chris Petersen wrote:
> > You can't copyright a title of a creative work. You can apply
> > for a trademark, but that doesn't restrict people from talking
> > about it. (I bought a box of Kleenex tissues yesterday. Want to
> > learn how to configure a cisco 2600?) And patents don't apply.
>
> Call it trademark, then. Either way, *most* tv show names belong to
> someone, and you can't legally publish information about them without
> proper attribution.

With all due respect, Chris... no. You've been misled.

Trademark protection protects you from very specific things:

Dilution, disparagement, and passing off are the three most common,
though there are others, and in certain circumstances, you receive
geographic protection against others using the same mark.

Having your tradename used to discuss the product to which it applies,
no matter how structured the forum, is *not* something against which
you are granted protection by a trademark.

I can even say "Lost sucks!". :-)

> TMS's descriptions do probably fall under "creative work", though.

This is a different issue, but the descriptions are almost certainly
provided by either the networks or the studios, and aren't TMS's work
product anyway. They might be a licensee, but that doesn't give *them*
the right to sue anyone... and the descriptions, taken singluarly, are
likely de minimis anyway.

> > Now, TMS may have a contract with each and every television
> > station in North America... but I suspect that they don't, and
> > that they may not even have an exclusivity clause. Consider PBS
> > stations.
>
> It doesn't take "each and every" station.. but if they have exclusivity
> (or near-exclusivity) agreements with most of the big ones, it makes it
> hard for a small group of users to get access to the data, expecially if
> we're all too cheap to consider paying more than $5-10/year (let alone
> per month).

Sure.

But see above; TitanTV doesn't appear to be sourcing TMS, at least not
solely.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:02 PM

Post #120 of 202 (10429 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 12:00:56PM -0700, Srikant Sharma wrote:
> I assume their (zap2it/TMS) major complaint is the abuse of their facility
> and the load on their servers.

I believe this not to be their primary complaint.

As I understand it, their primary complaint (about MythTV users, at
least) appears to be that commercial packagers of Myth were setting up
cookie-cutter boxes and selling them to end users with (presumably) the
*same* Z2L account configured into them.

Since Z2L's motivation for giving it away for free (aside from the
screen scraping problem) was that it provided them useful penetration
numbers and research, which this practice interfered with -- and since
they *charge* commercial PVR software makers for that privilege -- they
were annoyed.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:05 PM

Post #121 of 202 (10418 views)
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Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 02:43:36PM -0400, Michael Jones wrote:
> I think Chris has a good point that we haven't reached the point
> where "freaking out" is warranted... I'm sure SOMEONE will let us
> know when it's time to freak out ;-)

Yes.

I've posted the obligatory Don't Panic box on the wiki home page. When
it's time to panic, I'll change it. :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:13 PM

Post #122 of 202 (10416 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 12:14:57PM -0700, Brad DerManouelian wrote:
> TMS has told me directly that the descriptions are their most
> valuable and best-protected asset. I imagine because it's the only
> piece they create and can claim ownership to.

I'm sure they would say that.

For it to be *true*, though, they'd have to be original, and not
derivative of the work of the program producers.

For *that* in turn to be true, TMS would have to *be watching every
program they publish schedule data for*. Or at the very least, reading
the caption transcripts thereof.

Does anyone here think *that's* actually happening?

No; those blurbs are almost certainly written by interns at either the
production company or the network. Generally.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:15 PM

Post #123 of 202 (10441 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:08:52AM -0700, Chris Petersen wrote:
> The data pricing quoted before is about $500/month per listing (e.g.
> "comcast seattle, digital") and is WAY out of the price range for MythTV
> users to carry. We may or may not be able to work out a deal for lower
> pricing, but there will be an announcement one way or another when we
> have information.

Let me observe here that that's over-aggregation in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the MythTV audience would be fine with taking raw
channel schedules, and dealing with the lineup creation themselves, by
and large.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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myth at dermanouelian

Jun 20, 2007, 1:17 PM

Post #124 of 202 (10423 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 12:14:57PM -0700, Brad DerManouelian wrote:
>> TMS has told me directly that the descriptions are their most
>> valuable and best-protected asset. I imagine because it's the only
>> piece they create and can claim ownership to.
>
> I'm sure they would say that.
>
> For it to be *true*, though, they'd have to be original, and not
> derivative of the work of the program producers.
>
> For *that* in turn to be true, TMS would have to *be watching every
> program they publish schedule data for*. Or at the very least,
> reading
> the caption transcripts thereof.
>
> Does anyone here think *that's* actually happening?
>
> No; those blurbs are almost certainly written by interns at either the
> production company or the network. Generally.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> --

No, they generally get a paragraph and re-write it down to two lines.
Not always easy. They have a whole team of people who do it and they
have to pay them.
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 1:17 PM

Post #125 of 202 (10406 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 01:34:15PM -0600, Brian Wood wrote:
> Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:40:29AM -0500, Mark Phillip wrote:
> >> I run a startup that licenses data from TMS. The first quote they gave
> >> me was $12,000 a month for all channels for all states in the U.S.
> >> Canada costs extra. Thankfully my site is a Sports/TV mashup, so I
> >> don't need the full data set, but it's still very expensive.
> >
> > The data would be the cheap part. Unless you did something smarter
> > than centralized servers.
> >
> > *Has* anyone called Google?
>
> If anyone had the first thing Google would do would be to attempt to
> contact TMS. As was pointed out this could do nothing but confuse and
> delay the efforts of the developers.

I disagree.

That's not what Google *does*. Google, if they thought it cost
effective, would likely try to reverse engineer what TMS and Gemstar do
now, and Go Do It Themselves.

Likely in a more intelligent manner, from *our* personal point of view.

They overstep sometimes, but they've got some *really* smart people
working for them.

Or, they might just *buy* TMS or Gemstar; look at their market cap
lately?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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