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mythlist at michaelandholly

Jun 20, 2007, 7:24 AM

Post #51 of 202 (10276 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

The greedy nature of the human condition aside.. ;-)

I think it would be, with a little intelligent/creative programming/
license management, relatively easy prevent the data from being
misused or abused. We know the "honor" system won't work since the
"greedy human nature" is a given..

I doubt that this decision is purely technical on their part..
Unfortunately my suspicion is that there's some pressure being put on
Zap2It by some entity/customer that doesn't want this data to be
available on a "free" basis. .. but that's only my suspicious nature..

On Jun 20, 2007, at 10:14 AM, Brian J. Murrell wrote:

> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:00 -0400, Michael Jones wrote:
>> At $500/month, or $6000 a year it would require 1200 subscribers
>> paying $5 year to break even...
>
> Hrm. Something tells me that it's really not this simple. Surely the
> TMS bean counters have come to the conclusion that the number of users
> the data satisfies is relative to it's worth.
>
> Surely they have not missed the boat on the fact that a national
> newspaper like USA Today or The NY Times satisfies a much bigger
> subscriber base than a small 500 subscriber newspaper.
>
> Surely they have not ignored the "per seat" model than almost everyone
> selling a single reproducible copy of something is using.
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but the basic greedy nature of mankind and
> corporation
> makes me think I am right.
>
> But let's suppose somebody does set up an amicable (to both TMS and
> subscriber base) agreement to collect subscriber fees and pay TMS.
> What's to stop the same abuse that is going on currently from
> continuing? How is this "somebody" going to curb it any better than
> Zap2It could? Surely license (from TMS) to the data does not include
> the right for the licencee to allow re-distribution by it's customers.
>
> So now not only will this "somebody" need to collect enough to pay for
> it's license to TMS, they will have to collect enough to build up a
> legal fund to prosecute the abusers.
>
> One can see why Zap2It wants to stop dealing with consumers.
>
> b.
>
> --
> My other computer is your Microsoft Windows server.
>
> Brian J. Murrell
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

decepticon at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 7:28 AM

Post #52 of 202 (10269 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

>
> Sounds like we need some help from...hmmmm Google?
>
> Google, sounds like a nice fit for you! Adwords + TV Listings?
>
> I think that would work.. anyone work for google?
>

Not a bad idea. I've made the suggestion, we'll see what they say.
-J

ryan.goat at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 7:28 AM

Post #53 of 202 (10268 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, David Schmidt <david.schmidt.in.dallas [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> On 6/20/07, Cole Brodine <cbrodine [at] gmail> wrote:
> > I'm not sure what their commercial license says you are allowed to do
> with
> > the data. Hopefully you can redistribute as you please and then the $5
> year
> > thing would be completely feasible. I think you would have to remember
> that
> > the servers and bandwidth to redistribute would have to be maintained
> and
> > paid for also. You might have to pay at least one person's salary
> yearly as
> > well. So you are probably looking at something much higher then $5 a
> year.
>
> $5/year is nothing. I was thinking something in the $5/quarter to
> $5/month range.

$60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would be way over
priced. Yes TMS puts effort into collecting and cataloging the data. But
they already give it away for free (http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/). I may
be missing something but that site doesn't even have a banner add. I think
$12/year would be reasonable.

>
> > Hopefully Isaac or whomever they talked to can work something out. I'll
> > wait in the shadows to see what the developer's solution is.
> >
>
> And hopefully something we can get online before the (literal) drop
> dead date of 9/1!!
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

--
_____________
Ryan Patterson

cbrodine at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 7:28 AM

Post #54 of 202 (10266 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Brian J. Murrell <brian [at] interlinx> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:00 -0400, Michael Jones wrote:
> > At $500/month, or $6000 a year it would require 1200 subscribers
> > paying $5 year to break even...
>
> Hrm. Something tells me that it's really not this simple. Surely the
> TMS bean counters have come to the conclusion that the number of users
> the data satisfies is relative to it's worth.
>
> Surely they have not missed the boat on the fact that a national
> newspaper like USA Today or The NY Times satisfies a much bigger
> subscriber base than a small 500 subscriber newspaper.
>
> Surely they have not ignored the "per seat" model than almost everyone
> selling a single reproducible copy of something is using.
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but the basic greedy nature of mankind and corporation
> makes me think I am right.
>
> But let's suppose somebody does set up an amicable (to both TMS and
> subscriber base) agreement to collect subscriber fees and pay TMS.
> What's to stop the same abuse that is going on currently from
> continuing? How is this "somebody" going to curb it any better than
> Zap2It could? Surely license (from TMS) to the data does not include
> the right for the licencee to allow re-distribution by it's customers.
>
> So now not only will this "somebody" need to collect enough to pay for
> it's license to TMS, they will have to collect enough to build up a
> legal fund to prosecute the abusers.
>
> One can see why Zap2It wants to stop dealing with consumers.
>
> b.
>
> --
> My other computer is your Microsoft Windows server.
>
> Brian J. Murrell
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>
> I think their biggest problem comes from multiple people downloading from
one account. I'm sure if you charged a modest fee for each account, per
month you could limit your exposure quite a bit. Allow one download per IP
per day per account or something like that. It would allow the people
building and selling custom made MythTV's to continue about their merry way,
but it would also ensure that all their customers would be paying in also.
As long as each customer contributes a proper amount and the amount of
bandwidth is limited, I'm sure you could come up with a profitable model.

What's keeping somebody from buying an account and redistributing the data?
Nothing, except they would only be able to download once a day, and then
they would be using their own storage and bandwidth to redistribute.

I'm sure TMS has looked into it. Maybe they can't make it profitable or
maybe they just aren't interested in our demographic. Maybe the just don't
want the upfront expense of designing a pay per seat download system? Just
because they can't make it profitable doesn't mean somebody else can't.

Cole Brodine

-------------------------------------------
Visit My Website at http://www.brodine.com/
Blog: http://rabbitinhiding.blogspot.com/
ICQ: 5857320
Skype: cbrodine
yahoo: brodinec
MSN: brodinec [at] yahoo
-------------------------------------------

beww at beww

Jun 20, 2007, 7:36 AM

Post #55 of 202 (10269 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Michael Jones wrote:
> The greedy nature of the human condition aside.. ;-)
>
> I think it would be, with a little intelligent/creative programming/
> license management, relatively easy prevent the data from being
> misused or abused. We know the "honor" system won't work since the
> "greedy human nature" is a given..
>
> I doubt that this decision is purely technical on their part..
> Unfortunately my suspicion is that there's some pressure being put on
> Zap2It by some entity/customer that doesn't want this data to be
> available on a "free" basis. .. but that's only my suspicious nature..

It certainly doesn't take much imagination to think up entities that do
not like MythTV or anything associated with it:

Let's see, the CATV operators trying to rent DVRs, all the TV
advertisers, ad agencies, the DVD distribution folks, the Movie Studios,
The newspapers who sometimes get subscriptions from people just for a
"better" TV channel guide (and remember that TMS is, after all, really
newspaper people), the retail stores selling DVDs, Netflix, Microsoft,
and I'm sure many others.

That's just for starters.

I suspect that what's really happening is that MythTV is a victim of its
own success.

Always remember: If something seems too good to be true...

BEWW
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

cbrodine at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 7:43 AM

Post #56 of 202 (10286 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

No offense, but at this point in time, discussing price points for an
imaginary TV listing service is probably pretty pointless. I think we would
be better off trying to develop some sort of business model to decide if it
is even feasible at what people would consider a "reasonable" or "modest"
price.

-------------------------------------------
Visit My Website at http://www.brodine.com/
Blog: http://rabbitinhiding.blogspot.com/
ICQ: 5857320
Skype: cbrodine
yahoo: brodinec
MSN: brodinec [at] yahoo
-------------------------------------------

On 6/20/07, ryan patterson <ryan.goat [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 6/20/07, David Schmidt <david.schmidt.in.dallas [at] gmail> wrote:
> >
> > On 6/20/07, Cole Brodine <cbrodine [at] gmail> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure what their commercial license says you are allowed to do
> > with
> > > the data. Hopefully you can redistribute as you please and then the
> > $5 year
> > > thing would be completely feasible. I think you would have to
> > remember that
> > > the servers and bandwidth to redistribute would have to be maintained
> > and
> > > paid for also. You might have to pay at least one person's salary
> > yearly as
> > > well. So you are probably looking at something much higher then $5 a
> > year.
> >
> > $5/year is nothing. I was thinking something in the $5/quarter to
> > $5/month range.
>
>
> $60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would be way
> over priced. Yes TMS puts effort into collecting and cataloging the data.
> But they already give it away for free ( http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/).
> I may be missing something but that site doesn't even have a banner add. I
> think $12/year would be reasonable.
>
> >
> > > Hopefully Isaac or whomever they talked to can work something
> > out. I'll
> > > wait in the shadows to see what the developer's solution is.
> > >
> >
> > And hopefully something we can get online before the (literal) drop
> > dead date of 9/1!!
> > _______________________________________________
> > mythtv-users mailing list
> > mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> > http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
> _____________
> Ryan Patterson
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>

brian at interlinx

Jun 20, 2007, 7:43 AM

Post #57 of 202 (10264 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:28 -0400, ryan patterson wrote:

>
> $60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would be way
> over priced.

Heh. Well that's what's nice about a free market: you can simply choose
not to buy it. Or even better, license the data yourself from TMS and
re-distribute it at what you think is a more reasonable price for
consumers to pay for it.

> Yes TMS puts effort into collecting and cataloging the data. But
> they already give it away for free ( http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/).
> I may be missing something but that site doesn't even have a banner
> add. I think $12/year would be reasonable.

You are obviously not in sales or marketing. You are making the common
mistake of expecting to only pay what (you) think something is worth
rather than what the market will bear. Almost everything you buy is
priced based on what a majority of it's consumers will pay for it, not
what it costs to produce plus some reasonable profit margin.

b.

--
My other computer is your Microsoft Windows server.

Brian J. Murrell

Attachments:

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drescherjm at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 7:50 AM

Post #58 of 202 (10264 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

>
> Let's see, the CATV operators trying to rent DVRs, all the TV
> advertisers, ad agencies, the DVD distribution folks, the Movie Studios,
> The newspapers who sometimes get subscriptions from people just for a
> "better" TV channel guide (and remember that TMS is, after all, really
> newspaper people), the retail stores selling DVDs, Netflix, Microsoft,
> and I'm sure many others.
>

If one of these stipulated in a contract that we should no longer get access
to this data I guarantee we will not be able to get these listings even if
several thousand of us band together and use that buying power as they would
not want to violate their contract with the larger customer.

John

drescherjm at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 7:54 AM

Post #59 of 202 (10264 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:28 -0400, ryan patterson wrote:
>
> >
> > $60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would be way
> > over priced.
>

Do you subscribe to callerid, three way calling, voice mail ... from your
local phone company? I mean these services cost the company pennies a year
per customer but they charge $5 to $10 per month per service.

John

mythlist at michaelandholly

Jun 20, 2007, 7:54 AM

Post #60 of 202 (10281 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

If anyone's interested, or even cares..

I have contacted the labs [at] zap2it to request pricing and and
licensing information..

- Michael

On Jun 20, 2007, at 10:43 AM, Cole Brodine wrote:

> No offense, but at this point in time, discussing price points for
> an imaginary TV listing service is probably pretty pointless. I
> think we would be better off trying to develop some sort of
> business model to decide if it is even feasible at what people
> would consider a "reasonable" or "modest" price.
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Visit My Website at http://www.brodine.com/
> Blog: http://rabbitinhiding.blogspot.com/
> ICQ: 5857320
> Skype: cbrodine
> yahoo: brodinec
> MSN: brodinec [at] yahoo
> -------------------------------------------
>
> On 6/20/07, ryan patterson <ryan.goat [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>
> On 6/20/07, David Schmidt < david.schmidt.in.dallas [at] gmail> wrote:
> On 6/20/07, Cole Brodine < cbrodine [at] gmail> wrote:
> > I'm not sure what their commercial license says you are allowed
> to do with
> > the data. Hopefully you can redistribute as you please and then
> the $5 year
> > thing would be completely feasible. I think you would have to
> remember that
> > the servers and bandwidth to redistribute would have to be
> maintained and
> > paid for also. You might have to pay at least one person's
> salary yearly as
> > well. So you are probably looking at something much higher then
> $5 a year.
>
> $5/year is nothing. I was thinking something in the $5/quarter to
> $5/month range.
>
> $60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would be
> way over priced. Yes TMS puts effort into collecting and
> cataloging the data. But they already give it away for free
> ( http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/). I may be missing something but
> that site doesn't even have a banner add. I think $12/year would
> be reasonable.
>
> >
> > Hopefully Isaac or whomever they talked to can work something
> out. I'll
> > wait in the shadows to see what the developer's solution is.
> >
>
> And hopefully something we can get online before the (literal) drop
> dead date of 9/1!!
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>
>
> --
> _____________
> Ryan Patterson
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

rpooser at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 7:55 AM

Post #61 of 202 (10247 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Dean Collins wrote:
>
> Is anyone going to bitch if I suggest an advertising supported model?
>
> Small banner add on the base of your epg in the same way that
> Spiceworks delivers their advertisements?
> http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/spiceworks-killer-app-for-network.html
>
> I�m actually in the process of paying for the development of an ad
> supported Asterisk application but when I�ve approached the Myth-TV
> community about commercial projects in the past you guys get your
> knickers in a knot faster then even the asterisk community.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dean Collins
> Cognation Pty Ltd
> dean [at] cognation
> <mailto:dean [at] cognation>+1-212-203-4357 Ph
> +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
>

My Comcast STB works that way... wait I PAY them per month to rent the
damn box and I still see ads at the bottom of my listings?
But yes, personally I think that's a great idea if no additional fees
are incurred. You don't even need to collect personal info; the ad can
relate to current ads running on a channel on the current guide page or
something. One of the reasons I chose myth over any other DVR like a
cable DVR or Tivo was because I control it and it's totally free. Paying
for listings would start to put a dent in my reasoning. I know I'm a
scrooge.
Raphael
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rpooser at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 7:57 AM

Post #62 of 202 (10261 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Michael Jones wrote:
> At $500/month, or $6000 a year it would require 1200 subscribers
> paying $5 year to break even...
>
> I would think this is completely do-able?
>
> I don't know just how many people there are out there running MythTV
> but this would be pretty easy to put together.. and of course.. the
> more people are willing to pay for the service, the number to break
> even would be much less.
>
>
> On Jun 20, 2007, at 9:41 AM, Cole Brodine wrote:
>
>> On 6/20/07, *Michael Jones* <mythlist [at] michaelandholly
>> <mailto:mythlist [at] michaelandholly>> wrote:
>>
>> If we are unable to use Zap2It Labs for in it's current form, and
>> Zap2It is not willing to create a "personal subscription" option,
>> what's the possibility of creating a group to purchase the rights
>> to the data as a "commercial" provider and provide it to the
>> MythTV community for a low/modest subscription fee?
>>
>> I'd be willing to work with creating this company/group?
>>
>> I would guess this would depend on what Zap2it charges for the
>> data? Could be rather pricey.
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Jim Scott wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/20/07, * Greg Estabrooks* < [send email to greg [at] phaze
>>> via gmail] greg [at] phaze <mailto:greg [at] phaze>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Anyone from the mythtv development team planning to contact
>>> them to work out
>>> > a deal?
>>>
>>> All Options are being discussed, but nothing has been
>>> decided at this point.
>>>
>>> > I would be willing to pay a modest fee yearly fee for the
>>> service if they
>>> > would continue it.
>>>
>>> Personally so would I. The information has value to me, and
>>> it's worth a few
>>> dollars to me to have it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I need the listings. I'd pay to download them or help work on a
>>> project to provide listings to the community.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mythtv-users mailing list
>>> [send email to mythtv-users [at] mythtv via gmail]
>>> mythtv-users [at] mythtv <mailto:mythtv-users [at] mythtv>
>>> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mythtv-users mailing list
>> [send email to mythtv-users [at] mythtv via gmail]
>> mythtv-users [at] mythtv <mailto:mythtv-users [at] mythtv>
>> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>>
>>
>> It's my understanding that they cost somewhere around $500 per month
>> for a commercial license to there listings. I saw that one the
>> Zap2it forums, so I'm not sure of the accuracy.
>>
>> I would pay or help create something that would get me the listings I
>> need.
>>
>> Cole Brodine

Ok, $5 per year sounds like a pretty good deal compared to anything else
out there. It's pretty much still free and I'd pay that. ...But don't
you have to set up your own servers to actually get the content to the
users then?

Raphael
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beww at beww

Jun 20, 2007, 8:05 AM

Post #63 of 202 (10256 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

John Drescher wrote:
> Let's see, the CATV operators trying to rent DVRs, all the TV
> advertisers, ad agencies, the DVD distribution folks, the Movie
> Studios,
> The newspapers who sometimes get subscriptions from people just for a
> "better" TV channel guide (and remember that TMS is, after all, really
> newspaper people), the retail stores selling DVDs, Netflix, Microsoft,
> and I'm sure many others.
>
>
> If one of these stipulated in a contract that we should no longer get
> access to this data I guarantee we will not be able to get these
> listings even if several thousand of us band together and use that
> buying power as they would not want to violate their contract with the
> larger customer.

Precisely my point. It's not David vs. Goliath, it's David vs. the
entire universe.

If TMS wanted our little 10, 20 or even 50 dollars a month they would
have asked for it. It would probably cost them more to collect in such
dribs and drabs than it would be worth to them. They have most likely
(and probably correctly from their standpoint) figured out that it is
better to sell the data "wholesale" to major outfits, as opposed to
"retail" and have to keep track of and chase down our little payments.

Add to that the problems of their actually getting paid. If we used
credit cards they would have to comply with a whole slew of regulations
designed originally to "protect" us.

The mere fact that I or anybody else might be "willing" to pay a fee of
any sort means nothing. I am certainly willing to pay a reasonable (or
even an unreasonable) fee for an anti-gravity machine or
faster-than-light travel, but what does that mean?

I think at this point all we can do is wait and see. TMS has known for
years that some of are "willing to pay", repeating that endlessly is a
waste of time.

BEWW

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beww at beww

Jun 20, 2007, 8:07 AM

Post #64 of 202 (10275 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

John Drescher wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:28 -0400, ryan patterson wrote:
>
> >
> > $60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would be way
> > over priced.
>
>
> Do you subscribe to callerid, three way calling, voice mail ... from
> your local phone company? I mean these services cost the company pennies
> a year per customer but they charge $5 to $10 per month per service.

Then you have the wrong phone company. I got all those features and many
more, plus my main line, for $15/month.

Way OT, send me private mail if you are interested (and no, not Vonage).

BEWW
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 8:10 AM

Post #65 of 202 (10257 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 10:54:29AM -0400, John Drescher wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:28 -0400, ryan patterson wrote:
> > $60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would be way
> > over priced.
>
> Do you subscribe to callerid, three way calling, voice mail ... from your
> local phone company? I mean these services cost the company pennies a year
> per customer but they charge $5 to $10 per month per service.

They actually have no marginal cost to the carrier at all these days.
There is no commercially available local exchange switch for which the
hardware and software for these services is not preprovisioned.

Well, except maybe voicemail. But the uptake on all of them is such
that they're going to be installed on every switch you see.

These days, amusingly, it requires extra-cost hardware *to process
pulse dialling*. Or so I've been told. :-)

Here's a different question: if there are Things Going On In The
Background, why did Zap2It cut those notional people's legs out from
underthem by preannouncing? Just to see if the size of the firestorm
was big enough?

Or am I a cynic?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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james at thearmstrongs

Jun 20, 2007, 8:24 AM

Post #66 of 202 (10259 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

This is from their forum, does not sound good for now:

- Continued use of the service to support commercial products, in
violation of the agreement.
- Commercial products continued to grow despite previous appeals that
this activity stop.
- There are significant changes to the supporting data structure
forthcoming and we could not devote resources to the continued upkeep
and enhancements of the service.
- Maintenance of the service is impacting our resource pool for other
projects.
- We sought alternative options but were unable to find a solution.
- We recognize the hardship this creates for the user community. We are
open to alternative solutions and would consider proposals that met the
needs of the user community and our company.
- We looked into options to turn this into a paid service however we do
not have the infrastructure at this time.

-Labs
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drescherjm at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 8:27 AM

Post #67 of 202 (10265 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

>
> Then you have the wrong phone company. I got all those features and many
> more, plus my main line, for $15/month.
>

I switched to VIOP and I get those for free as well.

John

mythlist at michaelandholly

Jun 20, 2007, 8:29 AM

Post #68 of 202 (10260 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Jay..

You're a cynic ;-)

but then again, so am I.. which is why I recognized that fact so
quickly..

On Jun 20, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 10:54:29AM -0400, John Drescher wrote:
>> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:28 -0400, ryan patterson wrote:
>>> $60/year for a few hundred kilobytes of text files? That would
>>> be way
>>> over priced.
>>
>> Do you subscribe to callerid, three way calling, voice mail ...
>> from your
>> local phone company? I mean these services cost the company
>> pennies a year
>> per customer but they charge $5 to $10 per month per service.
>
> They actually have no marginal cost to the carrier at all these days.
> There is no commercially available local exchange switch for which the
> hardware and software for these services is not preprovisioned.
>
> Well, except maybe voicemail. But the uptake on all of them is such
> that they're going to be installed on every switch you see.
>
> These days, amusingly, it requires extra-cost hardware *to process
> pulse dialling*. Or so I've been told. :-)
>
> Here's a different question: if there are Things Going On In The
> Background, why did Zap2It cut those notional people's legs out from
> underthem by preannouncing? Just to see if the size of the firestorm
> was big enough?
>
> Or am I a cynic?
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth Baylink
> jra [at] baylink
> Designer The Things I
> Think RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates http://
> baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
> St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1
> 727 647 1274
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

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james at thearmstrongs

Jun 20, 2007, 8:32 AM

Post #69 of 202 (10284 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

- Continued use of the service to support commercial products, in
violation of the agreement.
- Commercial products continued to grow despite previous appeals that
this activity stop.
- There are significant changes to the supporting data structure
forthcoming and we could not devote resources to the continued upkeep
and enhancements of the service.
- Maintenance of the service is impacting our resource pool for other
projects.
- We sought alternative options but were unable to find a solution.
- We recognize the hardship this creates for the user community. We are
open to alternative solutions and would consider proposals that met the
needs of the user community and our company.
- We looked into options to turn this into a paid service however we do
not have the infrastructure at this time.

-Labs
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mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
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cpartin at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 8:43 AM

Post #70 of 202 (10271 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, James Armstrong <james [at] thearmstrongs> wrote:
> This is from their forum, does not sound good for now:
>
> - Continued use of the service to support commercial products, in
> violation of the agreement.
> - Commercial products continued to grow despite previous appeals that
> this activity stop.
> - There are significant changes to the supporting data structure
> forthcoming and we could not devote resources to the continued upkeep
> and enhancements of the service.
> - Maintenance of the service is impacting our resource pool for other
> projects.
> - We sought alternative options but were unable to find a solution.
> - We recognize the hardship this creates for the user community. We are
> open to alternative solutions and would consider proposals that met the
> needs of the user community and our company.
> - We looked into options to turn this into a paid service however we do
> not have the infrastructure at this time.
>
> -Labs

If they are shutting off the service that they started to prevent
scraping; does that mean that they have a way to prevent scraping via
some other means?
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ignasiak at gmail

Jun 20, 2007, 8:51 AM

Post #71 of 202 (10271 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On 6/20/07, Daniel Kristjansson <danielk [at] cuymedia> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 09:13 -0400, Bill wrote:
> > Anyone from the mythtv development team planning to contact them to work out
> > a deal?
>
> Don't panic!
>
> They contacted Issac just before they went public.
>
> Some serious people are talking about licensing the data from
> TMS, but this will take a little time to work out. We have no
> idea of the number of MythTV users that use DataDirect listings,
> nor how much TMS charges for commercial access to their data
> stream.

How about creating a completely different service rather than being at
the mercy of of a company that sees this as an annoyance? Obviously,
there are big challenges, but being self sufficient seems to fit well
with the rest of MythTV.

Hosting: Google Base? P2P based data sharing?

Guide Data Acquisition: Combine several sources.. PSIP/EIT, feeds
directly from stations, screen scraping, direct user input.

With a custom solution, the data could also be extended to better meet
MythTV needs. For example, commercial cutpoint information could be
added after broadcast to help with commflag analysis.
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 9:09 AM

Post #72 of 202 (10257 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 09:43:46AM -0600, Craig Partin wrote:
> If they are shutting off the service that they started to prevent
> scraping; does that mean that they have a way to prevent scraping via
> some other means?

Of course it doesn't mean that. If you post it, *someone* can scrape
it, if they're motivated enough. Raw factual directory data (which
this is) isn't copyrightable anyway; Feist v Rural makes that pretty
clear. If there's *creative* writing in the episode descriptions, then
maybe, but IANAL.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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jra at baylink

Jun 20, 2007, 9:10 AM

Post #73 of 202 (10274 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 10:22:41AM -0400, Preston Crow wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 09:30 -0400, Daniel Kristjansson wrote:
> > Another option is to get the data directly from the stations
> > themselves, this was done by some MythTV users in Sweden with
> > much success. There are fewer stations there, but there are
> > also many more MythTV users in North America who are willing
> > to do some legwork.
>
> Yup. I've already done that for Comedy Central, because the zap2it
> listings often lack the episode information.
>
> It shouldn't really be that hard to get listings for all the major
> channels. Getting the local information for networks, independent
> channels, and such is more of a challenge. (This might be a good place
> for a bounty system--someone who is good at writing scrapers might be
> willing to code one for your favorite local channel for price.)

Well, perhaps someone needs to convince the networks to provide the
data, um, directly... in a standard format which could be centrally
aggregated...

Naaaaaaah.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
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Dean at cognation

Jun 20, 2007, 9:29 AM

Post #74 of 202 (10269 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

ATT: Aussie Tivo/MythTV users

I'm wondering if due to the recent FTA between the USA and Australia
that the

Desktop V's Telstra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications_v._Rural_Telephone_Servi
ce

ruling still holds? Or under the new bi-lateral agreements and American
company can deliver TV information even though CH9 says it's
copyrighted.

Regards,

Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
dean [at] cognation
+1-212-203-4357 Ph
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mythtv-users-bounces [at] mythtv [mailto:mythtv-users-
> bounces [at] mythtv] On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth
> Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 12:10 PM
> To: mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Zap2it Labs Shutting Down?
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 09:43:46AM -0600, Craig Partin wrote:
> > If they are shutting off the service that they started to prevent
> > scraping; does that mean that they have a way to prevent scraping
via
> > some other means?
>
> Of course it doesn't mean that. If you post it, *someone* can scrape
> it, if they're motivated enough. Raw factual directory data (which
> this is) isn't copyrightable anyway; Feist v Rural makes that pretty
> clear. If there's *creative* writing in the episode descriptions,
then
> maybe, but IANAL.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth Baylink
jra [at] baylink
> Designer The Things I Think
RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com
'87 e24
> St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727
647 1274
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
_______________________________________________
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mark at areyouwatchingthis

Jun 20, 2007, 9:40 AM

Post #75 of 202 (10266 views)
Permalink

Re: Zap2it Labs Shutting Down? [In reply to]

Hey folks, the quote of $500/month for data is wrong.

I run a startup that licenses data from TMS. The first quote they gave
me was $12,000 a month for all channels for all states in the U.S.
Canada costs extra. Thankfully my site is a Sports/TV mashup, so I
don't need the full data set, but it's still very expensive.

A RUWT?/MythTV plug-in would have been killer--I guess it will be a
while longer before my DVR will start recording automatically whenever
there's an exciting game on TV.

This sucks.

Thanks,
Mark
RUWT?
http://areyouwatchingthis.com

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