Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Users

Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast)

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dave at frascone

Apr 10, 2007, 12:02 PM

Post #1 of 12 (10165 views)
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Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast)

Ok, after reading quite a bit, and searching quite a bit, I have come to
a few conclusions:

There is no Cable Card hardware for MythTV to use, so getting to
Comcast's HD and premium channels is not possible with a tuner card.

But -- what about using a STB and blasting IR?

What I'm trying to do is replace the dain-bramaged Comcast DVR with a
MythTV setup in my basement. I want to install a couple of tuner cards
in my file server, and use it as a MythTV "receiver".
Then, I want to add a nice looking, small, (perhaps diskless) MythTV
display computer to my TV.

So, the receiver needs to be at least a dual-tuner setup, and needs to
record HD.

Is this possible? I'm guessing there is a way to blast IR to two (or
more) Set Top Boxes, and to capture the output of the HD Comcast Set Top
Boxes via component, HDMI, etc.

Or, do I just need to wait patiently until there are HD tuner cards out
there with cable card support?

Let me know,

-Dave

--

David Frascone

Free advice is worth what you pay for it

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Apr 10, 2007, 12:21 PM

Post #2 of 12 (10110 views)
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Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

On 04/10/2007 03:02 PM, David Frascone wrote:
> I'm guessing there is a way to blast IR to two (or
> more) Set Top Boxes,

Yep.

> and to capture the output of the HD Comcast Set Top
> Boxes via component, HDMI, etc.
>

Nope.

> Or, do I just need to wait patiently until there are HD tuner cards out
> there with cable card support?

Read more of the posts on this list about Comcast and 5C.
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/engine?list=mythtv&do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=Comcast+5c&search_type=AND

Mike
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ivan.kowalenko at gmail

Apr 10, 2007, 12:25 PM

Post #3 of 12 (10114 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Apr 10, 2007, at 15.02, David Frascone wrote:

>
> Ok, after reading quite a bit, and searching quite a bit, I have
> come to a few conclusions:
>
> There is no Cable Card hardware for MythTV to use, so getting to
> Comcast's HD and premium channels is not possible with a tuner card.

Partially correct. CableCARD will likely never have official Linux
support due to piracy concerns. However, capturing via FireWire,
depending on your box and region, should be possible. You should be
able to get some channels in HD, but in most cases you can't get
premium channels. Also, depending on the service and area, QAM256-
capable HD capture cards can get HD channels via the cable line, but
I don't know much about this.

> But -- what about using a STB and blasting IR?

Common configuration for people who want digital cable, however it
probably isn't the best option, for what you want. Some people find
it hit-and-miss, some people find it rock solid.

> What I'm trying to do is replace the dain-bramaged Comcast DVR with
> a MythTV setup in my basement. I want to install a couple of tuner
> cards in my file server, and use it as a MythTV "receiver".

You mean as a back-end. First, dump the ComCast DVR. You're just
wasting money on it, and it's slower than some other cable boxes I
hear. You can probably use the straight HD-box for FireWire, or just
use a cheaper digital cable box. Keep in mind, this'll require a
decent amount of RAM (I have 256 MB for a single analog tuner).

> Then, I want to add a nice looking, small, (perhaps diskless)
> MythTV display computer to my TV.

Ahh, a front-end. Another common design. This can range from a hacked
XBox to a laptop to a custom built micro-ATX system running off of a
CompactFlash card. However, for high-def content you're going to
require a powerful CPU. An nVidia graphics card is recommended, with
a certain numbered nVidia driver (I forget the latest version) so you
can use XvMC to off load some of the HD decoding to the GPU. The
nVidia GeForce FX5200 seems to be a favorite of the MythTV crowd, is
XvMC capable, and is quite cheap.

> So, the receiver needs to be at least a dual-tuner setup, and needs to
> record HD.

Unless you're going directly from the cable line, you're going to
need two cable boxes.

> Is this possible? I'm guessing there is a way to blast IR to two
> (or more) Set Top Boxes, and to capture the output of the HD
> Comcast Set Top Boxes via component, HDMI, etc.

There is no HDMI-capture solution, and HDCP aims to try and prevent
any from ever existing. IR Blasters are common place, but have a wire
range of reliability. For your situation, aiming for either direct-
cable or FireWire capturing would be best, since this would obtain
the highest quality signal, with the least amount of processing time
(FireWire capture just writes the raw MPEG-2 stream to disk).

> Or, do I just need to wait patiently until there are HD tuner cards
> out there with cable card support?

ATi is already selling a CableCARD-capable capture device, but we'll
probably never see CableCARD for Linux, at least not legally (in the
US). Either go with one of the existing HD capture cards (you can at
least get your Free-To-Air HD signals on that), or a FireWire card.

> "Free advice is worth what you pay for it"

Not with this list! ;)

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mythtv at rodsbooks

Apr 10, 2007, 12:29 PM

Post #4 of 12 (10108 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

On Tuesday 10 April 2007 15:02, David Frascone wrote:
> Ok, after reading quite a bit, and searching quite a bit, I have come to
> a few conclusions:
>
> There is no Cable Card hardware for MythTV to use, so getting to
> Comcast's HD and premium channels is not possible with a tuner card.
>
> But -- what about using a STB and blasting IR?

This will work, but with some important caveats:

- IR blaster configurations sometimes don't work, so you might miss some
recordings. How often depends on a lot of hardware and software details,
and even ambient light conditions.

- You'll be able to record the NTSC output of the STB. This means no HD
content and even SD digital content will go from digital to analog and
back to digital, which will degrade its quality.

> So, the receiver needs to be at least a dual-tuner setup, and needs to
> record HD.
>
> Is this possible? I'm guessing there is a way to blast IR to two (or
> more) Set Top Boxes, and to capture the output of the HD Comcast Set Top
> Boxes via component, HDMI, etc.

AFAIK, there's no way to capture the HD output of HD STBs on consumer-grade
hardware. Some STBs do have firewire output for digital capture, but my
understanding is that this works only with unencrypted content, so you'd do
as well with a suitable direct HD capture device (bypassing the STB), such as
an HDHomerun (dual-tuner Ethernet device) or AVerMedia AVerTVHD A180
(single-tuner PCI card). Such devices capture unencrypted HD content. If you
go this route, be sure to get something with QAM support, which is the
encoding method used for digital channels by cable TV operators in the US.

The big question is how much content your cable provider encrypts. If you can
tune HD channels directly on a non-CableCard TV, then you should be able to
record it with MythTV and a suitable HD capture device, or perhaps using a
cable box's Firewire output. If not, then you'll only be able to capture an
SD (NTSC) version of the content using an analog (NTSC) capture device,
assuming your HD STB has NTSC output at all.

If your provider doesn't encrypt the channels you care about, I'd suggest you
get a mix of digital and analog/NTSC tuners. (Some can do both.) You'll be
able to record a lot of stuff without an STB, but most providers do encrypt
at least some channels, so you may have to rent at least one STB and record
some content via it. You might end up with something like an analog/NTSC
tuner recording directly, another analog/NTSC tuner recording via the STB,
and a digital tuner recording directly.

--
Rod Smith
http://www.rodsbooks.com
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kuphal at dls

Apr 10, 2007, 1:01 PM

Post #5 of 12 (10110 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

Michael T. Dean wrote:
>> and to capture the output of the HD Comcast Set Top
>> Boxes via component, HDMI, etc.
>>
>>
>
> Nope.
>
It sure would be interesting if the Myth backend running on Mac OSX
would have access to this

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Kevin
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dave at frascone

Apr 10, 2007, 1:59 PM

Post #6 of 12 (10101 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

Comments Inline

Ivan Kowalenko wrote:
>
>> But -- what about using a STB and blasting IR?
>>
>
> Common configuration for people who want digital cable, however it
> probably isn't the best option, for what you want. Some people find
> it hit-and-miss, some people find it rock solid.
>
>
Understood -- I did this approach with DishNetwork and a Series 1 Tivo.

>> What I'm trying to do is replace the dain-bramaged Comcast DVR with
>> a MythTV setup in my basement. I want to install a couple of tuner
>> cards in my file server, and use it as a MythTV "receiver".
>>
>
> You mean as a back-end. First, dump the ComCast DVR. You're just
> wasting money on it, and it's slower than some other cable boxes I
> hear. You can probably use the straight HD-box for FireWire, or just
> use a cheaper digital cable box. Keep in mind, this'll require a
> decent amount of RAM (I have 256 MB for a single analog tuner).
>
>
My goal is to dump it -- but I can't get rid of it and have less than I
have now.

I'm assuming that the memory requirements are for compressing an analog
signal -- if I do manage to get a digital one, it should just go to disk
w/o issues, right?

>
>> Is this possible? I'm guessing there is a way to blast IR to two
>> (or more) Set Top Boxes, and to capture the output of the HD
>> Comcast Set Top Boxes via component, HDMI, etc.
>>
>
> There is no HDMI-capture solution, and HDCP aims to try and prevent
> any from ever existing. IR Blasters are common place, but have a wire
> range of reliability. For your situation, aiming for either direct-
> cable or FireWire capturing would be best, since this would obtain
> the highest quality signal, with the least amount of processing time
> (FireWire capture just writes the raw MPEG-2 stream to disk).
>
>
Ok -- I've seen a few posts about firewire. It seems like the gist of
it is: Some STB's have firewire output. And, if I find a HD box with
firewire output, then I should be able to store all un-encrypted
streams. So -- that will *probably* give me all HD channels, except for
the premium ones? Or, does Comcast generally encrypt all their HD
channels? Does anyone know (Roswell, GA, North Fulton County)

I remember when I first hooked up cable, before I got the STB, that
there were some digital signals. There was even one HBO signal -- but
it was not the "real" HBO. I think it might have been an on-demand
signal. It would sometimes pause, rewind, etc.

So -- is there no good solution for premium HD recording? If I switched
to DirecTV or DishNetwork would it be easier to capture HD?

Sounds like there's a market for HD to firewire or HD to USB
converters! Too bad I'm not a hardware guy!

-Dave

lists at forevermore

Apr 10, 2007, 2:15 PM

Post #7 of 12 (10110 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

David Frascone wrote:
> Ok -- I've seen a few posts about firewire. It seems like the gist of
> it is: Some STB's have firewire output. And, if I find a HD box with
> firewire output, then I should be able to store all un-encrypted
> streams. So -- that will *probably* give me all HD channels, except for
> the premium ones? Or, does Comcast generally encrypt all their HD
> channels? Does anyone know (Roswell, GA, North Fulton County)

Comcast is a franchise, so results will vary based on your region. In
the Seattle area, all channels you pay for are open, including stuff
like HBO HD and all of the SD channels.

As for the box, the FCC law requires that any HD customer who asks for
it must be provided with a box containing an active firewire port. They
only require that the cableco provide access to stations available over
the air in HD, but many of them also give you the whole channel listing
(if you're lucky).

> So -- is there no good solution for premium HD recording? If I switched
> to DirecTV or DishNetwork would it be easier to capture HD?

Only if by "easier" you mean "no effort expended because it's not
possible at all".

-Chris

Attachments:

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dave at frascone

Apr 10, 2007, 2:33 PM

Post #8 of 12 (10092 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

Ok -- I think I'm going to do baby steps then:

What's a good inexpensive HDTV tuner card for MythTV? I'll set up my
backend, and worry about premium channels later ;)

-Dave

Chris Petersen wrote:
> David Frascone wrote:
>
>> Ok -- I've seen a few posts about firewire. It seems like the gist of
>> it is: Some STB's have firewire output. And, if I find a HD box with
>> firewire output, then I should be able to store all un-encrypted
>> streams. So -- that will *probably* give me all HD channels, except for
>> the premium ones? Or, does Comcast generally encrypt all their HD
>> channels? Does anyone know (Roswell, GA, North Fulton County)
>>
>
> Comcast is a franchise, so results will vary based on your region. In
> the Seattle area, all channels you pay for are open, including stuff
> like HBO HD and all of the SD channels.
>
> As for the box, the FCC law requires that any HD customer who asks for
> it must be provided with a box containing an active firewire port. They
> only require that the cableco provide access to stations available over
> the air in HD, but many of them also give you the whole channel listing
> (if you're lucky).
>
>
>> So -- is there no good solution for premium HD recording? If I switched
>> to DirecTV or DishNetwork would it be easier to capture HD?
>>
>
> Only if by "easier" you mean "no effort expended because it's not
> possible at all".
>
> -Chris
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

dave at frascone

Apr 10, 2007, 5:40 PM

Post #9 of 12 (10096 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

Rod Smith wrote:
> On Tuesday 10 April 2007 15:02, David Frascone wrote:
>
>> Ok, after reading quite a bit, and searching quite a bit, I have come to
>> a few conclusions:
>>
>> There is no Cable Card hardware for MythTV to use, so getting to
>> Comcast's HD and premium channels is not possible with a tuner card.
>>
>> But -- what about using a STB and blasting IR?
>>
>
> This will work, but with some important caveats:
>
> - IR blaster configurations sometimes don't work, so you might miss some
> recordings. How often depends on a lot of hardware and software details,
> and even ambient light conditions.
>
> - You'll be able to record the NTSC output of the STB. This means no HD
> content and even SD digital content will go from digital to analog and
> back to digital, which will degrade its quality.
>
>
>> So, the receiver needs to be at least a dual-tuner setup, and needs to
>> record HD.
>>
>> Is this possible? I'm guessing there is a way to blast IR to two (or
>> more) Set Top Boxes, and to capture the output of the HD Comcast Set Top
>> Boxes via component, HDMI, etc.
>>
>
> AFAIK, there's no way to capture the HD output of HD STBs on consumer-grade
> hardware. Some STBs do have firewire output for digital capture, but my
> understanding is that this works only with unencrypted content, so you'd do
> as well with a suitable direct HD capture device (bypassing the STB), such as
> an HDHomerun (dual-tuner Ethernet device) or AVerMedia AVerTVHD A180
> (single-tuner PCI card). Such devices capture unencrypted HD content. If you
> go this route, be sure to get something with QAM support, which is the
> encoding method used for digital channels by cable TV operators in the US.
>
> The big question is how much content your cable provider encrypts. If you can
> tune HD channels directly on a non-CableCard TV, then you should be able to
> record it with MythTV and a suitable HD capture device, or perhaps using a
> cable box's Firewire output. If not, then you'll only be able to capture an
> SD (NTSC) version of the content using an analog (NTSC) capture device,
> assuming your HD STB has NTSC output at all.
>
> If your provider doesn't encrypt the channels you care about, I'd suggest you
> get a mix of digital and analog/NTSC tuners. (Some can do both.) You'll be
> able to record a lot of stuff without an STB, but most providers do encrypt
> at least some channels, so you may have to rent at least one STB and record
> some content via it. You might end up with something like an analog/NTSC
> tuner recording directly, another analog/NTSC tuner recording via the STB,
> and a digital tuner recording directly.
>
>
Two last (I hope) questions:

1) What is the most popular tuner for analog & digital? (Popular for
price / performance, features, and reliability)
2) In regard to firewire -- how does that work? Does it just constantly
transmit what's playing? So mythTV would change channels on the STB,
and then store the stream to disk? If so, shouldn't I do this before
even buying a tuner card?

-Dave
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

mitchell.gore at gmail

Apr 10, 2007, 5:48 PM

Post #10 of 12 (10094 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

if you have a stb and a firewire port might as well. Although firewire has
its issues some people have great success. If i had both i would try it.

Mitchell

On 4/10/07, David Frascone <dave[at]frascone.com> wrote:
>
> Rod Smith wrote:
> > On Tuesday 10 April 2007 15:02, David Frascone wrote:
> >
> >> Ok, after reading quite a bit, and searching quite a bit, I have come
> to
> >> a few conclusions:
> >>
> >> There is no Cable Card hardware for MythTV to use, so getting to
> >> Comcast's HD and premium channels is not possible with a tuner card.
> >>
> >> But -- what about using a STB and blasting IR?
> >>
> >
> > This will work, but with some important caveats:
> >
> > - IR blaster configurations sometimes don't work, so you might miss some
> > recordings. How often depends on a lot of hardware and software
> details,
> > and even ambient light conditions.
> >
> > - You'll be able to record the NTSC output of the STB. This means no HD
> > content and even SD digital content will go from digital to analog and
> > back to digital, which will degrade its quality.
> >
> >
> >> So, the receiver needs to be at least a dual-tuner setup, and needs to
> >> record HD.
> >>
> >> Is this possible? I'm guessing there is a way to blast IR to two (or
> >> more) Set Top Boxes, and to capture the output of the HD Comcast Set
> Top
> >> Boxes via component, HDMI, etc.
> >>
> >
> > AFAIK, there's no way to capture the HD output of HD STBs on
> consumer-grade
> > hardware. Some STBs do have firewire output for digital capture, but my
> > understanding is that this works only with unencrypted content, so you'd
> do
> > as well with a suitable direct HD capture device (bypassing the STB),
> such as
> > an HDHomerun (dual-tuner Ethernet device) or AVerMedia AVerTVHD A180
> > (single-tuner PCI card). Such devices capture unencrypted HD content. If
> you
> > go this route, be sure to get something with QAM support, which is the
> > encoding method used for digital channels by cable TV operators in the
> US.
> >
> > The big question is how much content your cable provider encrypts. If
> you can
> > tune HD channels directly on a non-CableCard TV, then you should be able
> to
> > record it with MythTV and a suitable HD capture device, or perhaps using
> a
> > cable box's Firewire output. If not, then you'll only be able to capture
> an
> > SD (NTSC) version of the content using an analog (NTSC) capture device,
> > assuming your HD STB has NTSC output at all.
> >
> > If your provider doesn't encrypt the channels you care about, I'd
> suggest you
> > get a mix of digital and analog/NTSC tuners. (Some can do both.) You'll
> be
> > able to record a lot of stuff without an STB, but most providers do
> encrypt
> > at least some channels, so you may have to rent at least one STB and
> record
> > some content via it. You might end up with something like an analog/NTSC
> > tuner recording directly, another analog/NTSC tuner recording via the
> STB,
> > and a digital tuner recording directly.
> >
> >
> Two last (I hope) questions:
>
> 1) What is the most popular tuner for analog & digital? (Popular for
> price / performance, features, and reliability)
> 2) In regard to firewire -- how does that work? Does it just constantly
> transmit what's playing? So mythTV would change channels on the STB,
> and then store the stream to disk? If so, shouldn't I do this before
> even buying a tuner card?
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

mythtv at rodsbooks

Apr 10, 2007, 6:49 PM

Post #11 of 12 (10094 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

On Tuesday 10 April 2007 20:40, David Frascone wrote:
>
> Two last (I hope) questions:
>
> 1) What is the most popular tuner for analog & digital? (Popular for
> price / performance, features, and reliability)

By "analog & digital," do you mean a tuner that will do both? If so, probably
the pcHDTV cards. The latest model is the 5500. I must caution, however, that
I own a couple of pcHDTV 3000 cards, and my opinion of them is very low,
particularly for digital cable (QAM) reception -- they seem to work OK for
some people, but they've got signal lock problems for others, apparently
because of (very common) compatibility problems with random pieces or
combinations of hardware. I don't know if the 5500 improves matters. Also,
most (perhaps all) cards that do both digital and analog use framegrabber
analog tuners, which means that the CPU must encode the video into the
desired format (MPEG-4 or RTJpeg for MythTV). This increases CPU load, which
can be a problem if your CPU is marginal (3GHz and below is "marginal" for an
HD setup) and you want to record multiple channels or record analog while
playing back HD content. HD recording is actually light on the CPU, since the
card just sends a precompressed digital signal down the bus, which imposes
very little CPU load.

For digital-only, the HDHomerun and AVerMedia AVerTVHD A180 both seem to be
reasonably popular, but there are others, too. I replaced one of my pcHDTV
cards with an A180 and it's like night and day; the A180 produces clean video
with just an occasional minor digital "blip," whereas the pcHDTV 3000
produces recordings that are literally unwatchable; they're missing so much
data that MythTV usually reports them as half or less the show's length.

For analog-only, the Hauppauge product line, and particularly the
PVR-150/250/350/500, seems popular. These cards support MPEG-2 hardware
encoding, which greatly reduces CPU load. Other hardware-encoding cards
exist, but they seem less popular. I happen to have an AVerMedia AVerTV
M150-D, which is a bit finicky but can be made to work reasonably well
(although perhaps not for channel surfing). I've also got a Hauppauge
PVR-USB2, which is a USB-interfaced MPEG-2 encoder card that works reasonably
well, except that it doesn't respond to MythTV's bitrate-setting commands, so
all recordings have the same bitrate.

Check the wiki for information on quite a few video capture cards:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Video_capture_card
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Video_capture_cards

> 2) In regard to firewire -- how does that work? Does it just constantly
> transmit what's playing? So mythTV would change channels on the STB,
> and then store the stream to disk? If so, shouldn't I do this before
> even buying a tuner card?

If you've got an STB with a Firewire port, it's certainly worth trying this
approach before buying a separate card. AFAIK, there's nothing preventing you
from using both an STB/Firewire setup and separate digital and/or analog
tuners, so you can add to or replace your STB/Firewire configuration if you
like.

I've never actually used a Firewire input for MythTV, so I can't give you much
in the way of details about how it works.

--
Rod Smith
http://www.rodsbooks.com
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kuphal at dls

Apr 10, 2007, 8:38 PM

Post #12 of 12 (10085 views)
Permalink

Re: Probably a FAQ Question (HD, MythTV, Cable Card, and Comcast) [In reply to]

David Frascone wrote:
> Ok -- I think I'm going to do baby steps then:
>
> What's a good inexpensive HDTV tuner card for MythTV? I'll set up my
> backend, and worry about premium channels later ;)
If you think you're going to want more than one, go with the HDHomeRun.
It is double the cost of a single tuner but you get two tuners in an
external box with no Linux drivers to mess with. If you want a good
single card, I can solidly recommend the AverMedia A180

Kevin
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