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trgreer at gmail

Jan 10, 2007, 7:15 PM

Post #1 of 12 (1006 views)
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HDMI capture device

Here is a device that takes HDMI in and provides HD video streams:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Fits in a PCI Express slot.
Cost: $249

Downsides:
1. Output is uncompressed, so there is heavy duty work to compress.
2. Supports MS-Windows and Mac OS-X only.
3. Does not support HDCP (but then neither does XBox or iTV).

Still, this is the first device of this type that I have seen.

Your thoughts?

Tom


mitchell2345 at msn

Jan 10, 2007, 7:27 PM

Post #2 of 12 (973 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:15:49 -0800
> From: trgreer [at] gmail
> To: mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> Subject: [mythtv-users] HDMI capture device
>
> Here is a device that takes HDMI in and provides HD video streams:
> http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
> Fits in a PCI Express slot.
> Cost: $249
> Downsides:
> 1. Output is uncompressed, so there is heavy duty work to compress.
> 2. Supports MS-Windows and Mac OS-X only.
> 3. Does not support HDCP (but then neither does XBox or iTV).
> Still, this is the first device of this type that I have seen.
> Your thoughts?
> Tom

That would be awsome to see some linux drivers created. Most HDTV thru STB are dont use HDCP! Maybe I will hold off on my HD Home run purchase to see what pans out here.

Mitchell
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jakep_82 at hotmail

Jan 10, 2007, 8:08 PM

Post #3 of 12 (982 views)
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Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

>From: Mitchell Gore <mitchell2345 [at] msn>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:15:49 -0800
> > From: trgreer [at] gmail
> > To: mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> > Subject: [mythtv-users] HDMI capture device
> >
> > Here is a device that takes HDMI in and provides HD video streams:
> > http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
> > Fits in a PCI Express slot.
> > Cost: $249
> > Downsides:
> > 1. Output is uncompressed, so there is heavy duty work to compress.
> > 2. Supports MS-Windows and Mac OS-X only.
> > 3. Does not support HDCP (but then neither does XBox or iTV).
> > Still, this is the first device of this type that I have seen.
> > Your thoughts?
> > Tom
>
>That would be awsome to see some linux drivers created. Most HDTV thru STB
>are dont use HDCP! Maybe I will hold off on my HD Home run purchase to see
>what pans out here.
>
>Mitchell

What makes you think HDMI isn't HDCP? Firewire is almost always encrypted
for everything but broadcast channels (I've verified using the firewire
input on my TV). I can't imagine HDMI isn't. You'll get no more channels
with this than with the HDHR.

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trgreer at gmail

Jan 10, 2007, 9:06 PM

Post #4 of 12 (978 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

jakep_82 at hotmail wrote:
> What makes you think HDMI isn't HDCP? Firewire is almost always encrypted
> for everything but broadcast channels (I've verified using the firewire
> input on my TV). I can't imagine HDMI isn't. You'll get no more channels
> with this than with the HDHR.

First off, HDCP is copy protection (DRM) that prevents unauthorized devices
from receiving output via HDMI.

In my case, I would use this to connect to my cable box instead of firewire
(probably still use firewire to change channels). But this would let me
capture *every* channel, including premium channels (like HBO) and even pay
per view channels.

Right now, I get everything but premium channels via firewire from the
DCT6200-series boxes. On my HDHomeRun, I only get a subset of the analog
cable channels. I don't get any digital tier channels. (Real bummer, I am
very disappointed.)

Tom


jakep_82 at hotmail

Jan 10, 2007, 10:49 PM

Post #5 of 12 (972 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

>From: "Tom Greer" <trgreer [at] gmail>
>jakep_82 at hotmail wrote:
>>What makes you think HDMI isn't HDCP? Firewire is almost always encrypted
>>for everything but broadcast channels (I've verified using the firewire
>>input on my TV). I can't imagine HDMI isn't. You'll get no more channels
>>with this than with the HDHR.
>
>First off, HDCP is copy protection (DRM) that prevents unauthorized devices
>from receiving output via HDMI.
>

I understand that. I was using firewire as an example. Different
principals, same result.

So this card isn't HDCP compliant yet you're going to somehow record HDCP
protected content? Good luck.

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willyboyd at gmail

Jan 11, 2007, 9:21 AM

Post #6 of 12 (947 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

On 1/11/07, Jake Palmer <jakep_82 [at] hotmail> wrote:
> So this card isn't HDCP compliant yet you're going to somehow record HDCP
> protected content? Good luck.

UH... the way I read it, that poster was stating "Most HDTV thru STB
are dont use HDCP!", in other words, for now most HD content through
the STB is not using HDCP over HDMI. Now whether or not that's true I
have no clue, as I'm still doing analog recording myself. But
still... Doesn't look like it to me he was suggesting being able to
record HDCP content at all.

>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page
> www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
>
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> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
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jakep_82 at hotmail

Jan 11, 2007, 10:12 AM

Post #7 of 12 (949 views)
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Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

>From: "Willy Boyd" <willyboyd [at] gmail>
>
>On 1/11/07, Jake Palmer <jakep_82 [at] hotmail> wrote:
> > So this card isn't HDCP compliant yet you're going to somehow record
>HDCP
> > protected content? Good luck.
>
>UH... the way I read it, that poster was stating "Most HDTV thru STB
>are dont use HDCP!", in other words, for now most HD content through
>the STB is not using HDCP over HDMI. Now whether or not that's true I
>have no clue, as I'm still doing analog recording myself. But
>still... Doesn't look like it to me he was suggesting being able to
>record HDCP content at all.

It's not true. Check this link for someones experience with Comcast,
Motorola, HDMI and HDCP.

http://ghelf.wordpress.com/2006/12/21/comcastmotorola-hdcp-issues-via-hdmi/

Long story short, the media companies aren't stupid. HDMI from a STB uses
HDCP. The only true loophole is analog, but hardware encoding component
capture cards don't exist in consumer form. So once again I say good luck.

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willyboyd at gmail

Jan 11, 2007, 10:41 AM

Post #8 of 12 (946 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

Good to know. I'll know what to expect when I finally upgrade to an
HD box from TW.

To take this a step further, what's to stop someone from using a
Component->HDMI transcoder to feed input to this thing? Of course
~$500 overall just ain't worth it for me, but some might consider that
close to "consumer" level.

But I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote "hardware
_encoding_ capture cards..." Just like the original poster stated,
this does no compression. So disk and/or processor would also become
big cost factors.

On 1/11/07, Jake Palmer <jakep_82 [at] hotmail> wrote:
> >From: "Willy Boyd" <willyboyd [at] gmail>
> >
> >On 1/11/07, Jake Palmer <jakep_82 [at] hotmail> wrote:
> > > So this card isn't HDCP compliant yet you're going to somehow record
> >HDCP
> > > protected content? Good luck.
> >
> >UH... the way I read it, that poster was stating "Most HDTV thru STB
> >are dont use HDCP!", in other words, for now most HD content through
> >the STB is not using HDCP over HDMI. Now whether or not that's true I
> >have no clue, as I'm still doing analog recording myself. But
> >still... Doesn't look like it to me he was suggesting being able to
> >record HDCP content at all.
>
> It's not true. Check this link for someones experience with Comcast,
> Motorola, HDMI and HDCP.
>
> http://ghelf.wordpress.com/2006/12/21/comcastmotorola-hdcp-issues-via-hdmi/
>
> Long story short, the media companies aren't stupid. HDMI from a STB uses
> HDCP. The only true loophole is analog, but hardware encoding component
> capture cards don't exist in consumer form. So once again I say good luck.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG
>
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> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
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mitchell2345 at msn

Jan 11, 2007, 1:20 PM

Post #9 of 12 (949 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

----------------------------------------
> From: jakep_82 [at] hotmail
> To: mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:49:13 -0800
> Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] HDMI capture device
>
> >From: "Tom Greer" <trgreer [at] gmail>
> >jakep_82 at hotmail wrote:
> >>What makes you think HDMI isn't HDCP? Firewire is almost always encrypted
> >>for everything but broadcast channels (I've verified using the firewire
> >>input on my TV). I can't imagine HDMI isn't. You'll get no more channels
> >>with this than with the HDHR.
> >
> >First off, HDCP is copy protection (DRM) that prevents unauthorized devices
> >from receiving output via HDMI.
> >
>
> I understand that. I was using firewire as an example. Different
> principals, same result.
>
> So this card isn't HDCP compliant yet you're going to somehow record HDCP
> protected content? Good luck.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page
> www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Your "protected contend" is using QAM encrypted. So what our STB do is decrypt the signal (removing QAM) then pass the video via analog component cables or even better a digital DVI or HDMI connection. Over that line the video will not be encrypted because there are many TV's there that are not HDCP capable. So we can put any device between there and record. Just like we do when recording analog video over RCA composite cables. The advantage of a HDMI recorder is the video never is converted to analog so the picture will be just as good.

Hope this makes sense.

Mitchell


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jakep_82 at hotmail

Jan 11, 2007, 2:09 PM

Post #10 of 12 (943 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

>From: Mitchell Gore <mitchell2345 [at] msn>
>
>----------------------------------------
> > From: jakep_82 [at] hotmail
> > To: mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> > Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:49:13 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] HDMI capture device
> >
> > >From: "Tom Greer" <trgreer [at] gmail>
> > >jakep_82 at hotmail wrote:
> > >>What makes you think HDMI isn't HDCP? Firewire is almost always
>encrypted
> > >>for everything but broadcast channels (I've verified using the
>firewire
> > >>input on my TV). I can't imagine HDMI isn't. You'll get no more
>channels
> > >>with this than with the HDHR.
> > >
> > >First off, HDCP is copy protection (DRM) that prevents unauthorized
>devices
> > >from receiving output via HDMI.
> > >
> >
> > I understand that. I was using firewire as an example. Different
> > principals, same result.
> >
> > So this card isn't HDCP compliant yet you're going to somehow record
>HDCP
> > protected content? Good luck.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mythtv-users mailing list
> > mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> > http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>Your "protected contend" is using QAM encrypted. So what our STB do is
>decrypt the signal >(removing QAM) then pass the video via analog component
>cables or even better a digital DVI or >HDMI connection. Over that line
>the video will not be encrypted because there are many TV's >there that are
>not HDCP capable. So we can put any device between there and record. Just
>like >we do when recording analog video over RCA composite cables. The
>advantage of a HDMI recorder >is the video never is converted to analog so
>the picture will be just as good.
>
>Hope this makes sense.
>
>Mitchell

It would make perfect sense if it were true. You're correct that many TV's
aren't HDCP compliant. That's why they put component outputs on STB's. If
your TV isn't HDCP compliant then HDMI doesn't work. See the link below for
info. And yet again I say good luck.

http://ghelf.wordpress.com/2006/12/21/comcastmotorola-hdcp-issues-via-hdmi/

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brad+myth at templetons

Jan 14, 2007, 1:55 AM

Post #11 of 12 (894 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 07:15:49PM -0800, Tom Greer wrote:
> Here is a device that takes HDMI in and provides HD video streams:
> http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
>
> Fits in a PCI Express slot.
> Cost: $249
>
> Downsides:
> 1. Output is uncompressed, so there is heavy duty work to compress.
> 2. Supports MS-Windows and Mac OS-X only.
> 3. Does not support HDCP (but then neither does XBox or iTV).

As noted, not going to do you any good on HDCP output, which is what
most set top boxes put out or plan to put out. But I don't know if
anybody has done a survey one what they actually put out.

However, uncompresed HDTV -- that's pretty heavy duty stuff.
1080i at 24 bits/pixel is 1.5 GIGABITS per second uncompressed,
or 187 megabytes/second. No hard disk I know of can write that
fast, in fact you would probably have to get at least 4 in a stripe
array, perhaps even 5, to keep up with that, and an hour of the stuff
is 670 megabytes, so they had better be pretty large disks.

That's because your CPU is not going to be compressing this stuff
in real time. However, one presumes you will have a thread trying
to compress it, and depending on how fast you can get that to go,
then burning a lot of CPU you could get it down to nicd mp4 sizes
before too long, so you only need perhaps just a terabyte of buffer
space. "just a terabyte." Sheesh.


There are things you can do to improve this. You can probably do
_some_ compression in real time. I would venture you could probably
do 4 to 1 or better, in which case you're now down to something you can
write to 2 stripes. Get it down to 8 to 1 and you might be able to use
just a single drive, and have far less buffering worries. Then finish
the job in non-real time.

Or, better news is there will soon be cheap encoding chips on the
market, able to transcode HD in real time and costing $10. Get one
of those and you are in great shape (If you get it unencrypted.)

What you really want is a card with some hardware to do the first
line compression to really work this. And then you will need A2D because
the analog outputs are not encrypted.
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jharvell+lists.mythtv-users at dogpad

Jan 20, 2007, 9:46 PM

Post #12 of 12 (791 views)
Permalink
Re: HDMI capture device [In reply to]

Jake Palmer wrote:
>>
>
> It would make perfect sense if it were true. You're correct that many TV's
> aren't HDCP compliant. That's why they put component outputs on STB's. If
> your TV isn't HDCP compliant then HDMI doesn't work. See the link below for
> info. And yet again I say good luck.
>
> http://ghelf.wordpress.com/2006/12/21/comcastmotorola-hdcp-issues-via-hdmi/
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
I've heard through another forum (totally unverified) that the Dish 811
does not implement HDCP on their HDMI output.


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