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Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs

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simon at koala

Mar 3, 2005, 9:19 AM

Post #26 of 39 (4912 views)
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Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thursday 03 March 2005 15:32, Kevin Kuphal wrote:
> Simon Kenyon wrote:
> >we use freedb, imdb and amazon already - so the point is moot
> >all you would need is:
>
> None of those are hosted, operated, or under the control of anyone
> related to MythTV which was the point being made.

this is not going anywhere - but hey, what the heck :-)

it would be ok if it was not tied specifically to mythtv?
just like cddb is not tied to one player
--
simon
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simon at koala

Mar 3, 2005, 9:22 AM

Post #27 of 39 (4915 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thursday 03 March 2005 17:35, Aaron Stewart wrote:
> Problem is that one must assume that:
>
> a.) every instance of the show puts the commercials in the same place
> b.) the same show airing on different channels have the commercials in the
> same place (SkyONE has radically different commercial placement than, say,
> the sciFI channel).
> c.) the commercials are the same length (could be gotten around by looking
> at content on either side of commercials).
>
> I'm guessin' that, while the idea is a great one, it's a wash. But
> hopefully there's someone out there who's smarter than I am that can
> figure out how to do it.
not so!
rather that key by show
key by channel and time
--
simon
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acs at hourglassone

Mar 3, 2005, 9:35 AM

Post #28 of 39 (4923 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

Problem is that one must assume that:

a.) every instance of the show puts the commercials in the same place
b.) the same show airing on different channels have the commercials in the
same place (SkyONE has radically different commercial placement than, say,
the sciFI channel).
c.) the commercials are the same length (could be gotten around by looking
at content on either side of commercials).

I'm guessin' that, while the idea is a great one, it's a wash. But
hopefully there's someone out there who's smarter than I am that can
figure out how to do it.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Shaul Kedem wrote:

> "Actually, where it would come in handy is not just commercials (which
> software today can detect) but other things like pitching changes, boring
> academy awards acceptance speeches, long driving scenes to no purpose etc."
>
> This gives me an idea.. how about having more than one sort of "flag"?
>
> - Over 18 flag
> - Boring car chases flag
> - Commercial flag
> - ...
>
> This way if you want to see something all you need to do is say what
> sections to remove according to the flags and away you go....
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:53:39 -0800, Brad Templeton
> <brad+myth [at] templetons> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 02:14:58AM -0500, Maverick wrote:
> > > You must be on the same wave length of me and my friends. We where
> > > recently talking about this functionality, so only the first person
> > > mark commercials (manual, ie, not auto flagged) and submit their
> > > locations to the network. Then everyone else has perfectly commercial
> > > free viewing. For any time that show ever airs, it's likely to be the
> > > same too.
> >
> > You will find this suggestion from me in a number of threads in the
> > past (I think I first suggested it to the Replay guys 5 years ago but
> > they never did anything with it.) It will happen.
> > >
> > > THE MAN would definitely dislike this idea, and IANAL, but I certainly
> > > can't seeing it being illegal. There's no obligation to watching
> > > commercials or using any sort of technology to skip them, as far as I
> > > know.
> >
> > Actually, where it would come in handy is not just commercials (which
> > software today can detect) but other things like pitching changes, boring
> > academy awards acceptance speeches, long driving scenes to no purpose etc.
> > >
> > > Issac already expressed he doesn't want any technology that's central
> > > server centric (ala Napster was), at least that's the way I understood
> > > his post about that. Maybe I misunderstood.
> >
> > Actually what he said recently that sounded like this was that what he meant
> > was he wants to insist that a recommendation system be centralized on his
> > personal server.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mythtv-users mailing list
> > mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> > http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
> >
> >
> >
>

brad+myth at templetons

Mar 3, 2005, 11:34 AM

Post #29 of 39 (4932 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 08:39:06AM -0700, Garry Cook wrote:
> I've had my MythTV box up for a little over a week now, and one thing
> that really kills me is when I see a commercial (watching live TV of
> course) for a program that is of interest. What do I do? Stop watching
> and go schedule it? Write it down on a list I keep on the coffee
> table? It would be great if I could just hit a button and have the
> program touted in the commercial scheduled.

As you probably know, if the advertiser buys this ability, the Tivo does
exactly this. A little icon appears during the ad to tell you to push
your thumbs-up button to record the advertised show.

I don't think this works well as a collaborative system, do people really
want to make records of where shows are advertised? I don't see it.
You could start noticing, "Hey, after viewing this ad, 20 people went
and queued the following recording" and then offer it as a choice,
but frankly, this feature is pretty un-exciting. Admittedly because
I use a keyboard not a remote control, so for me, in the unlikely event
I even _see_ an ad, I can just pause, bring up mythweb, type in the name
and record it all in a very few seconds.

> Perhaps the TWish beta that's being talked about will help with this
> issue, but wow, wouldn't that just be the nutz?!?!

Tvwish's current goals are more along the lines of "If some person
(or somebody amalgamating the opinions of many) puts up a recommendation
for a show on the web, your Mythtv will record it."

brad+myth at templetons

Mar 3, 2005, 11:44 AM

Post #30 of 39 (4938 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 10:50:57AM -0500, Maverick wrote:
> > Actually, where it would come in handy is not just commercials (which
> > software today can detect) but other things like pitching changes, boring
> > academy awards acceptance speeches, long driving scenes to no purpose etc.
>
> That's cool. Of course implementing this using a central server of
> some sort will be easier. Is the MythTV project (users) opposed to
> server centric information sharing, such as flagged commercials?

I think the approach is fairly straightforward. While a user is
watching a program, you would build a map. At its most basic, a map
for every second of the program that indicates how the user watched it,
namely:
Watched at normal playback speed (or slower)
Watched at a timestretch acceleration > 1.4
Watched at a slow FF speed
Watched at a fast FF speed
Skipped using seek button
Skipped using commercial skip button
Didn't watch at all (ie. terminated viewing before watching)

Anyway, as the user watches, figure this out and store it in the
database. Upon quitting the program, compress the data (since
most seconds will look just like the adjacent seconds) into a series
of transitions between watching modes. Send that, along with programid,
channel id and ntp calculated time index for the start of the show.
(Users on dial-ups and otherwise not running ntp would not be permitted
to provide data, though with extra work you could possibly bring them in.)

The central system receives the data anonymously, ideally via tor.

For things like sports, you would want to send up data before the program
is finished, for the eager viewers.

It then overlays the maps on top of one another. Soon the transition
points converge. You throw out the extremes and you have a very accurate
map. The map contains correct cut points, and also figures about how
many viewers did not watch a section at regular playback speed.

Thus, for example, an interesting ad that caught people's eyes might
have a lower skip percentage. In a sporting event you would start to
identify non-breaks and put up a note on the screen, "20% of users made
a 15 second skip here" -- over things like a pick-off duel or a mound
conference etc.

Then the server allows boxes to pull down this accurate map when getting
ready to watch a program, and update it during the watching.

Expect a lot of bandwidth.

brad+myth at templetons

Mar 3, 2005, 11:51 AM

Post #31 of 39 (4941 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 08:53:01AM -0800, Chris Petersen wrote:
> This is pretty standard -- shows are edited such that there are
> commercial breaks in certain places. However, it does NOT account for
> the commercial breaks being the same length in each region (remember,
> commercials are regional things).

Over time this is solved once you have enough people watching your
exact profile of show. That's easy for all the cable networks,
everybody watches exactly the same show on Discovery Channel (even the
same east and west.) I think it's also true for prime time network
programming, they are all on the same tight schedule. If not, you need
to find other people in your town, which will eventually happen.

If you are tired of waiting for this, there are ways to make this work.

You start by building a signature map for the program based on detection
of scene transitions (key frames etc.) and all the other transitions the
commercial flagger uses. These transitions form a fingerprint for
sections of the show. Ie. this section had a 20 second scene, followed
by a 31.5 second scene, and a 8.3 second scene etc. Such fingerprints
would be unique.

You can also, when there is closed captioning, and it's coming from the
network feed, just not the exact frames of the exact pieces of text.
Highly precise.

Anyway, now you record user actions not just based on the NTP time,
but relative to these points. Ie. "The user hit fast forward 9.3
seconds after the frame with the closed caption text 'foo'".

Now you have something that works everywhere.

>
> Also, don't forget that some people record before/after shows, and myth
> is never 100% accurate in the time you give it (I'm set to record an

Actually, my myth is _always_ 100% accurate on the time. It is the
networks that are off. If you run NTP and are live on the internet,
you will always have very very good time.

acs at hourglassone

Mar 3, 2005, 12:20 PM

Post #32 of 39 (4941 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

And subsequently by location/listing area? That would mean that somebody
in my immediate metro area, subscribing to my same service, recording the
same show(s) as I did, would have had to flag the commercials already for
me to take advantage of it.

Again, possible, but it strikes me as a science project.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Simon Kenyon wrote:

> On Thursday 03 March 2005 17:35, Aaron Stewart wrote:
> > Problem is that one must assume that:
> >
> > a.) every instance of the show puts the commercials in the same place
> > b.) the same show airing on different channels have the commercials in the
> > same place (SkyONE has radically different commercial placement than, say,
> > the sciFI channel).
> > c.) the commercials are the same length (could be gotten around by looking
> > at content on either side of commercials).
> >
> > I'm guessin' that, while the idea is a great one, it's a wash. But
> > hopefully there's someone out there who's smarter than I am that can
> > figure out how to do it.
> not so!
> rather that key by show
> key by channel and time
> --
> simon
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

jcaputo1 at comcast

Mar 3, 2005, 12:30 PM

Post #33 of 39 (4913 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thursday 03 March 2005 14:51, Brad Templeton wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 08:53:01AM -0800, Chris Petersen wrote:
> > This is pretty standard -- shows are edited such that there are
> > commercial breaks in certain places. However, it does NOT account
> > for
> > the commercial breaks being the same length in each region
> > (remember,
> > commercials are regional things).
>
> Over time this is solved once you have enough people watching your
> exact profile of show. That's easy for all the cable networks,
> everybody watches exactly the same show on Discovery Channel (even the
> same east and west.) I think it's also true for prime time network
> programming, they are all on the same tight schedule.

No; cable providers & broadcast network affiliates can insert their own
ads in certain cases, AFAIK.

-JAC
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brad+myth at templetons

Mar 3, 2005, 1:23 PM

Post #34 of 39 (4937 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 03:30:46PM -0500, Joseph A. Caputo wrote:
> On Thursday 03 March 2005 14:51, Brad Templeton wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 08:53:01AM -0800, Chris Petersen wrote:
> > > This is pretty standard -- shows are edited such that there are
> > > commercial breaks in certain places. However, it does NOT account
> > > for
> > > the commercial breaks being the same length in each region
> > > (remember,
> > > commercials are regional things).
> >
> > Over time this is solved once you have enough people watching your
> > exact profile of show. That's easy for all the cable networks,
> > everybody watches exactly the same show on Discovery Channel (even the
> > same east and west.) I think it's also true for prime time network
> > programming, they are all on the same tight schedule.
>
> No; cable providers & broadcast network affiliates can insert their own
> ads in certain cases, AFAIK.

They can, but it is my understanding that they just play them into
the live stream, they don't change how anything else airs. Is this
incorrect?

Syndicated shows, distributed in advance, can be edited, as can
some network shows (there have been stations who, in order to get
more commercial time, speed shows up by a few percent.) In these
cases you would indeed have to share information only with people
who watched the same show at the same time on the same channel.

However, there are lots of cases (and I still suspect most cable
and all satellite broadcasts) where there is only one source.

The algorithm I describe, where you note changes wrt events in
the show rather than the exact time, work even then, they only
fail in the case of time stretch differing from station to station.

Note that with digital TV, such as HDTV broadcasts, you are getting
an identical byte-stream for the program in many cases, so you can
actually generate hashes of the frames to identify where you are
in the program. Though I would use the center lines of the frame in
case a local station is adding any kind of logo or OSD by re-editing
the mpeg. I think that's pretty rare.

brad+myth at templetons

Mar 3, 2005, 1:29 PM

Post #35 of 39 (4925 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 01:59:04PM -0800, Aaron Stewart wrote:
> Not necessarily so.. Depending on reception quality (I know that my
> channel 3 comes in worse than most), there may be more or less latency in
> blank frame detection. Ditto to positions that are set by user when
> flagging.
>
You don't need supreme accuracy on this level. If you have an error
level, you just buffer a bit, at the risk of showing the user a second
or two of something boring like a commercial. They can always pick
up the remote and correct manually if it gets too far off, this is
what we do with automatic commercial detect.

But the truth is you don't use just one approach. You have a lot of
ways of looking at it. Since most users will have NTP, you have
of course the exact time for people watching the same broadcast.
Then you have any clues you could pick out of the show, from the
existing detection of commercial stuff (blank frames, scene transitions,
logo on-off etc.) You have VBI information, in particular the
closed captioning. I have not had the chance to look at different
streams from different broadcasters, but I strongly suspect that
the closed captioning is synced to the video once and exactly once,
and if you have a frame with a caption on it, it's the exact same
frame (or very close) everywhere the show is broadcast.

(No good on stuff without captions of course.)

All of these things could quickly lead you to learn that most users
skipped over a given section of video, and thus identify it as boring.

Not that this is an easy project, this is one of the more complex
things on the large mythtv wishlist. But I think it's doable.

acs at hourglassone

Mar 3, 2005, 1:59 PM

Post #36 of 39 (4934 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

Not necessarily so.. Depending on reception quality (I know that my
channel 3 comes in worse than most), there may be more or less latency in
blank frame detection. Ditto to positions that are set by user when
flagging.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Brad Templeton wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 08:53:01AM -0800, Chris Petersen wrote:
> > This is pretty standard -- shows are edited such that there are
> > commercial breaks in certain places. However, it does NOT account for
> > the commercial breaks being the same length in each region (remember,
> > commercials are regional things).
>
> Over time this is solved once you have enough people watching your
> exact profile of show. That's easy for all the cable networks,
> everybody watches exactly the same show on Discovery Channel (even the
> same east and west.) I think it's also true for prime time network
> programming, they are all on the same tight schedule. If not, you need
> to find other people in your town, which will eventually happen.
>
> If you are tired of waiting for this, there are ways to make this work.
>
> You start by building a signature map for the program based on detection
> of scene transitions (key frames etc.) and all the other transitions the
> commercial flagger uses. These transitions form a fingerprint for
> sections of the show. Ie. this section had a 20 second scene, followed
> by a 31.5 second scene, and a 8.3 second scene etc. Such fingerprints
> would be unique.
>
> You can also, when there is closed captioning, and it's coming from the
> network feed, just not the exact frames of the exact pieces of text.
> Highly precise.
>
> Anyway, now you record user actions not just based on the NTP time,
> but relative to these points. Ie. "The user hit fast forward 9.3
> seconds after the frame with the closed caption text 'foo'".
>
> Now you have something that works everywhere.
>
> >
> > Also, don't forget that some people record before/after shows, and myth
> > is never 100% accurate in the time you give it (I'm set to record an
>
> Actually, my myth is _always_ 100% accurate on the time. It is the
> networks that are off. If you run NTP and are live on the internet,
> you will always have very very good time.
>
>

simon at koala

Mar 4, 2005, 6:51 AM

Post #37 of 39 (4925 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Thursday 03 March 2005 20:37, Aaron Stewart wrote:
> And subsequently by location/listing area? That would mean that somebody
> in my immediate metro area, subscribing to my same service, recording the
> same show(s) as I did, would have had to flag the commercials already for
> me to take advantage of it.
>
> Again, possible, but it strikes me as a science project.

i rely on people with the same CD as me to have typed in the table of contents
so i can get it from freedb
i flag the commercials on shows i want to keep
i would gladly share that info if there was a mechanism to do so
--
simon
ps remeber that over 100k people have downloaded mythtv
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tps at buoy

Mar 5, 2005, 8:46 PM

Post #38 of 39 (4915 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 02:51:04PM +0000, Simon Kenyon wrote:
> On Thursday 03 March 2005 20:37, Aaron Stewart wrote:
> > And subsequently by location/listing area? That would mean that somebody
> > in my immediate metro area, subscribing to my same service, recording the
> > same show(s) as I did, would have had to flag the commercials already for
> > me to take advantage of it.
> >
> > Again, possible, but it strikes me as a science project.
>
> i rely on people with the same CD as me to have typed in the table of contents
> so i can get it from freedb
> i flag the commercials on shows i want to keep
> i would gladly share that info if there was a mechanism to do so

Not having looked into the cutlist deeply, but, doesn't the commercial
cutlist depend on the frame count of the current recording? If someone
starts the recording 1 minut earlier, wouldn't that skew the commercial
by 1 minute?

Tim

--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>> Tim Sailer >< Coastal Internet, Inc. <<
>> Network and Systems Operations >< PO Box 726 <<
>> http://www.buoy.com >< Moriches, NY 11955 <<
>> tps [at] buoy >< (631) 399-2910 (888) 924-3728 <<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

simon at koala

Mar 7, 2005, 12:47 AM

Post #39 of 39 (4894 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Torrentocracy Patch against Mythtv-cvs [In reply to]

On Sunday 06 March 2005 04:46, Tim Sailer wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 02:51:04PM +0000, Simon Kenyon wrote:
> > On Thursday 03 March 2005 20:37, Aaron Stewart wrote:
> > > And subsequently by location/listing area? That would mean that
> > > somebody in my immediate metro area, subscribing to my same service,
> > > recording the same show(s) as I did, would have had to flag the
> > > commercials already for me to take advantage of it.
> > >
> > > Again, possible, but it strikes me as a science project.
> >
> > i rely on people with the same CD as me to have typed in the table of
> > contents so i can get it from freedb
> > i flag the commercials on shows i want to keep
> > i would gladly share that info if there was a mechanism to do so
>
> Not having looked into the cutlist deeply, but, doesn't the commercial
> cutlist depend on the frame count of the current recording? If someone
> starts the recording 1 minut earlier, wouldn't that skew the commercial
> by 1 minute?
>
> Tim

correct
but the differences would be correct
that is why i said when i first proposed this that you would need a UI to move
the cut list (as a whole) relative to the recording - to line them up
either that or an accurate clock
--
simon
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