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TV1+1 freeview.xml header update?

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stevehodge at gmail

Jul 3, 2012, 10:41 PM

Post #26 of 39 (695 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Moore <dmoo1790 [at] ihug> wrote:

> On 04/07/12 13:30, Steve Hodge wrote:
>
>> From a design point of view it would be better if the client programs
>> weren't connecting to the database directly - they should be getting all
>> data via the backend process. Really they probably shouldn't even be
>> aware that there is a database. There was some talk about going that
>> way, not sure if anything has come of it (I don't really follow the main
>> lists these days).
>>
>> I'm sure there will still be tools to access the database, it just won't
>> be as convenient as it is now. I won't be happy if it happens either,
>> but I do understand the reasoning.
>>
>>
> I still don't get it. I would understand if there were good technical
> reasons for embedded vs external db. For example, faster or smaller or more
> reliable.

Install complexity. Remote permissions for MySQL is one of the perennial
issues that people have, it's come up on this list more than once. And note
that the recent leap-second bug was triggered by MySQL, not MythTV itself.
Versioning issues. As a Gentoo I was affected by the change in default
character set that happened between versions awhile back and that was a big
issue for some. Most users want mythtv to be an appliance. They don't want
to have administer a database.

From memory, speed was actually one of the big reasons why they have stuck
with MySQL, and if they do go embedded it'll probably be an embedded MySQL.
Some of the scheduler queries are complex and slow. Also at the moment with
database access spread through all the client apps and the system is
closely tied to MySQL. There was some work done on a PostgreSQL port but
the devs have flatly stated that the won't commit anything like that.

> But the argument that users might break it doesn't fly for me. So what if
> they do? It's their problem. If the solution means less functionality for
> me then I'm dead set against it.

If you want your open source project to be successful you need to build a
community around it. Telling users "it's your problem" is a good way to
fail at that. And users having bad experiences put other users off. That
said I think the motivation is not so much to protect users from themselves
as to protect users from out of date third party tools.

Cheers,
Steve

stevehodge at gmail

Jul 3, 2012, 10:43 PM

Post #27 of 39 (704 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:59 PM, David Moore <dmoo1790 [at] ihug> wrote:

> I decided to give scanning another shot but only after backing up my db.
> :) It's not too bad. Didn't trash my existing channels this time. But it
> found 3 channels which aren't actually live in Auckland so I had to delete
> these.

Rather than delete them set the visible flag to off. That way they won't
reappear after your next can.

> (Seems the scan may rely on info in the MPEG TS PAT or PMT rather than
> test tuning every channel.) I chose the manual option to enter the new
> channels and let it suggest channel numbers so I wouldn't get any conflicts
> with existing channels. I think you'll need to manually enter xmltv ids
> after the new channels are created.

Yes.

Cheers,
Steve

nickw at beekeeping

Jul 3, 2012, 10:56 PM

Post #28 of 39 (698 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On 04/07/12 17:41, Steve Hodge wrote:
> Install complexity. Remote permissions for MySQL is one of the perennial
> issues that people have, it's come up on this list more than once. And
> note that the recent leap-second bug was triggered by MySQL, not MythTV
> itself. Versioning issues. As a Gentoo I was affected by the change in
> default character set that happened between versions awhile back and
> that was a big issue for some. Most users want mythtv to be an
> appliance. They don't want to have administer a database.
>
> From memory, speed was actually one of the big reasons why they have
> stuck with MySQL, and if they do go embedded it'll probably be an
> embedded MySQL. Some of the scheduler queries are complex and slow. Also
> at the moment with database access spread through all the client apps
> and the system is closely tied to MySQL. There was some work done on a
> PostgreSQL port but the devs have flatly stated that the won't commit
> anything like that.
>
> But the argument that users might break it doesn't fly for me. So
> what if they do? It's their problem. If the solution means less
> functionality for me then I'm dead set against it.
>
> If you want your open source project to be successful you need to build
> a community around it. Telling users "it's your problem" is a good way
> to fail at that. And users having bad experiences put other users off.
> That said I think the motivation is not so much to protect users from
> themselves as to protect users from out of date third party tools.

I think Steve has it pretty well pegged, esp. in the last para.

Another open source project I'm involved in (genealogy software) faces
similar issues. Currently, the database is mostly 'untouchable' - but
there is a constant undercurrent of users wanting to be able to access
it directly, converting it to MySQL or whatever.

Version changing of utilities provides enough challenges, but once the
users can actually start making direct changes, the calls for support
will, I believe, increase exponentially. Ah, well...

Nick
Tauranga

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paulgir at gmail

Jul 3, 2012, 11:41 PM

Post #29 of 39 (692 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On Tue, 03 Jul 2012 14:16:49 +1200, Worik Stanton
<worik.stanton [at] gmail> wrote:

> On 03/07/12 11:27, Nick Rout wrote:
>>> >
>>> >Good advice.
>>> >
>>> >What tool should I be using to tune in TV1+1?
>> mythtv-setup
>
>
> It would be a great service if some one could explain *how* to update
> the back end to deal with the demise of TVNZ7 and the rise of TV1+1 (or
> whatever it is called). Words of one syllable if possible....
>
> mythtv-setup is a large unwieldy (unfriendly) programme. Also mythtv
> setups can be brittle. It took me a *long* time (years not months) to
> get mine set up to a usable point. I still am not 100% sure I am clear
> about the relationships between physical devices, inputs, channels....
> (Just last week I learnt a very useful fact about digital TV streams and
> DVB-T tuners). I do not want to risk damaging my setup.
>
> cheers
> Worik
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hear Hear

-Paul

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dmoo1790 at ihug

Jul 4, 2012, 12:43 AM

Post #30 of 39 (690 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On 04/07/12 17:56, Nick Wallingford wrote:
> On 04/07/12 17:41, Steve Hodge wrote:
>> If you want your open source project to be successful you need to build
>> a community around it. Telling users "it's your problem" is a good way
>> to fail at that. And users having bad experiences put other users off.
>> That said I think the motivation is not so much to protect users from
>> themselves as to protect users from out of date third party tools.
>
> I think Steve has it pretty well pegged, esp. in the last para.
>
> Another open source project I'm involved in (genealogy software) faces
> similar issues. Currently, the database is mostly 'untouchable' - but
> there is a constant undercurrent of users wanting to be able to access
> it directly, converting it to MySQL or whatever.
>
> Version changing of utilities provides enough challenges, but once the
> users can actually start making direct changes, the calls for support
> will, I believe, increase exponentially. Ah, well...
>

On the other hand one of the wonderful things about open source is you
can _never_ predict all the ways that someone might like to use/extend
your software. So locking down the software can lose you supporters to
other, more open, projects.

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dmoo1790 at ihug

Jul 4, 2012, 12:50 AM

Post #31 of 39 (697 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On 04/07/12 17:41, Steve Hodge wrote:
>
> If you want your open source project to be successful you need to build
> a community around it. Telling users "it's your problem" is a good way
> to fail at that. And users having bad experiences put other users off.
> That said I think the motivation is not so much to protect users from
> themselves as to protect users from out of date third party tools.
>

Of course I didn't mean you ignore all user questions. Only when the
user fails to listen or is rude or constantly doesn't RTFM do you blow
them off. Legit questions deserve at some response even if it is only
RTFM (politely said).

It's nice to protect users to a certain extent but not at the cost of
crippling functionality for everyone. You can never achieve a totally
user-proof system anyway. For the myth db it only has to be said (1)
back up your db first and (2) at your own risk.

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nick.rout at gmail

Jul 4, 2012, 12:51 AM

Post #32 of 39 (689 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Paulgir <paulgir [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Jul 2012 14:16:49 +1200, Worik Stanton <worik.stanton [at] gmail>
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/07/12 11:27, Nick Rout wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >>Direct manipulation of the sql is deprecated. Use the tuning tools.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >Good advice.
>>>> >
>>>> >What tool should I be using to tune in TV1+1?
>>>
>>> mythtv-setup
>>
>>
>>
>> It would be a great service if some one could explain *how* to update the
>> back end to deal with the demise of TVNZ7 and the rise of TV1+1 (or whatever
>> it is called). Words of one syllable if possible....
>>
>> mythtv-setup is a large unwieldy (unfriendly) programme. Also mythtv
>> setups can be brittle. It took me a *long* time (years not months) to get
>> mine set up to a usable point. I still am not 100% sure I am clear about
>> the relationships between physical devices, inputs, channels.... (Just
>> last week I learnt a very useful fact about digital TV streams and DVB-T
>> tuners). I do not want to risk damaging my setup.
>>
>> cheers
>> Worik
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Hear Hear

I am not sure how you think that it is large or unfriendly. Mind you I
read the documentation before I tried to use it.

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tortise at paradise

Jul 4, 2012, 1:21 AM

Post #33 of 39 (688 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On 3/07/2012 11:30 a.m., Nick Rout wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:55 AM, tortise <tortise [at] paradise> wrote:
>> On 3/07/2012 8:59 a.m., Nick Rout wrote:
>>
>>> Direct manipulation of the sql is deprecated.
>>
>> Do you have a reference to support this purported deprecation?
>
> 1. Common sense

Mmmmm Whose? Is it widely held?

> 2. Regular reading of mythtv-users in particular posts by developers
> like Michael Dean who say not to fiddle with the SQL unless you REALLY
> know how mythtv interacts with the database and how the tables relate
> to each other.

My understanding is that there is some dev preference to change the SQL
database however it will still be SQL.

To me that means no SQL deprecation.

I also understand that direct and careful SQL manipulations are more
flexible and reliable than the tool which is designed to do a subset of
the tasks that SQL does, and when I've used it in the past it caused
more issues than it fixed.

Doing SQL changes with list user scrutiny seems a fair and reasonable
way to minimise risks as well as pass on the knowledge to others and
make it easier for them.

> 3. The fact that you got it wrong (see Hadley's response to your post).

{deliberate 24 hour pause} I recall that he'd posted I was right, so who
got it wrong?

More significantly I think it preferable that people attack issues and
not people in this forum. IMO the people trained in diplomacy should set
the best example.

I think the problem that's getting everyone excited is not open or
closed SQL access, its documentation. That is whether there are tools
that prevent the need for SQL or there are tools short of the
requirements, either way a concise set of complete documentation is
highly desirable. A good set of SQL documentation would minimise risks,
as would a great set-up tool also well documented. I think mythtv is a
long way off from being configured by our proverbial wives.

A versioned entity relationship diagram would be very helpful and would
IMO be better and more efficient for dev's to spend their time on than
locking down SQL access, which is contrary to the philosophy most of us
subscribe to here.

Thanks Steve for pointing out one flaw in the approach I'd outlined.

Instead of getting excited about philosophical design issues and control
of users we might have worked out how to add a new unique robust chanid
that overcomes the separation of the old TVNZ7 recordings and the new
channel 7 recording icons...and move on....

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dmoo1790 at ihug

Jul 4, 2012, 1:44 AM

Post #34 of 39 (694 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On 04/07/12 20:21, tortise wrote:
>
> A versioned entity relationship diagram would be very helpful and would
> IMO be better and more efficient for dev's to spend their time on than
> locking down SQL access, which is contrary to the philosophy most of us
> subscribe to here.
>

That's a good idea. I had the same thought myself a while ago. The
relationships must surely be documented somewhere already. Maybe buried
in the source?

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dmoo1790 at ihug

Jul 4, 2012, 1:46 AM

Post #35 of 39 (690 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On 04/07/12 19:51, Nick Rout wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Jul 2012 14:16:49 +1200, Worik Stanton<worik.stanton [at] gmail>
...
>>> mythtv-setup is a large unwieldy (unfriendly) programme. Also mythtv
>>> setups can be brittle. It took me a *long* time (years not months) to get
>>> mine set up to a usable point. I still am not 100% sure I am clear about
>>> the relationships between physical devices, inputs, channels.... (Just
>>> last week I learnt a very useful fact about digital TV streams and DVB-T
>>> tuners). I do not want to risk damaging my setup.
>>>
...

>
> I am not sure how you think that it is large or unfriendly. Mind you I
> read the documentation before I tried to use it.
>

Now be fair Nick. I already posted that the wiki is a bit light on
channel editing. Or is there another document source I'm missing?

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stephen_agent at jsw

Jul 4, 2012, 3:12 AM

Post #36 of 39 (687 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On Wed, 04 Jul 2012 20:44:08 +1200, you wrote:

>On 04/07/12 20:21, tortise wrote:
>>
>> A versioned entity relationship diagram would be very helpful and would
>> IMO be better and more efficient for dev's to spend their time on than
>> locking down SQL access, which is contrary to the philosophy most of us
>> subscribe to here.
>>
>
>That's a good idea. I had the same thought myself a while ago. The
>relationships must surely be documented somewhere already. Maybe buried
>in the source?

My reading of the database is that it really lacks design. It is not
in normal form, which is what you expect from any real database
designer. It seems to have just been modified ad hoc, and while the
end result does work OK at the moment, it must be getting to the point
where making changes to it is becoming difficult. For example, the
problem with freqid in the channel table being used for tuning
analogue channels only, and the tuning data for the digital channels
coming from dtv_multiplex. My understanding is that little problems
like that build up in databases, and eventually cause really major
problems with later changes. It is best to do things the right way
every time you change a database schema. If they want to now add
tuning data for connecting to Internet TV sites, will they add a third
mechanism, or will they properly redesign the tuning bits of the
database?

As a start, at the very least, all fields in all tables should be
documented in the web pages for the database. The tables are shown
here:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Category:DB_Table

but the information is pretty much just what you get from a "describe
<table-name>;" SQL command. Here:

http://code.mythtv.org/doxygen/group__db__schema.html

is more useful information about some fields of some tables, but it is
very incomplete. What you need is a proper description of what each
field is used for and how to use it.

BTW My comments are from using the 0.21-0.24 databases - I have not
moved to 0.25 yet, so I have not seen what they may have done in 0.25.
And it is always possible there is documentation of all the tables and
fields somewhere in the source code - I have not delved in there to
find out.

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stevehodge at gmail

Jul 4, 2012, 5:43 AM

Post #37 of 39 (696 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Stephen Worthington <
stephen_agent [at] jsw> wrote:

> My reading of the database is that it really lacks design. It is not
> in normal form, which is what you expect from any real database
> designer. It seems to have just been modified ad hoc, and while the
> end result does work OK at the moment, it must be getting to the point
> where making changes to it is becoming difficult.

Yes, you're right. Creeping design is a common problem with many open
source projects (and closed source ones too of course). And allowing open
access to the database makes this problem more likely. The database
structure effectively becomes an api, which the developers are naturally
reluctant to radically overhaul (even if it is an unofficial and/or
internal api).

Cheers,
Steve

stevehodge at gmail

Jul 4, 2012, 5:56 AM

Post #38 of 39 (685 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:21 PM, tortise <tortise [at] paradise> wrote:

> Instead of getting excited about philosophical design issues and control
> of users we might have worked out how to add a new unique robust chanid
> that overcomes the separation of the old TVNZ7 recordings and the new
> channel 7 recording icons...and move on....

Just pick one, there's no significance to the values. Or better yet, don't
pick one - the column has an autoincrement default.

Cheers,
Steve

tortise at paradise

Jul 4, 2012, 1:23 PM

Post #39 of 39 (684 views)
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Re: TV1+1 freeview.xml header update? [In reply to]

On 3/07/2012 11:27 a.m., Nick Rout wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Worik Stanton <worik.stanton [at] gmail> wrote:
>> On 03/07/12 08:59, Nick Rout wrote:
>>>
>>> Direct manipulation of the sql is deprecated. Use the tuning tools.
>>
>> Good advice.??
>>
>> What tool should I be using to tune in TV1+1?
>
> mythtv-setup

Would using this tool preserve old recordings and their icons from
closed old channels such as Stratos and TVNZ7?

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