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davidrkirk at gmail

Mar 22, 2010, 3:11 PM

Post #1 of 61 (6022 views)
Permalink
Hardware Recommendations

Hey everyone,

I've been lurking on the list for a while. Now I'm finally going to get
around to building my first MythTV box. I was hoping I could get some
recommendations from you all.

I have a satellite dish setup already and after a few adjustments I'm
getting a pretty good signal. We don't have a flash LCD or plasma TV. We
are happy with our CRT for now, so I don't need to bother with DVB-T. We
only watch the Freeview channels. We don't have Sky.

Basically what I want is a small quiet PC sitting under the TV with a dual
DVB-S tuner card and a big hard drive for storing recordings. I'd like to
be able to record 1 or 2 channels at the same time and also be able to watch
recorded programs at the same time. Front end and backend will be on the
same PC.

Firstly I'll need a PC to install on. How grunty does it need to be for
what I am using it. Should I get a full blown PC or is there something less
power hungry around? I've seen the Zotac Ion, but it doesn't seem to have
any PCI slots for adding a tuner. I assume people use these as frontends
only. Is there something else similar that might be suitable or do I need
something with more grunt for a backend/frontend setup?

I'll also need some tuners. I've had a quick look around and found the TBS
6980 PCI-E DVB-S2 Dual Tuner Card
http://www.justtech.co.nz/shop/satellite-equipment/tbs-6980-pci-e-dvb-s2-dual-tuner-card.
It comes with a remote and IR receiver and it is apparently supported by
Linux. Has anyone had any experience with this card, or is there something
else I should consider?

Is it really necessary to have 2 tuners? I've heard that a single tuner can
stream multiple channels at the same time. Is this true? Can I have a
single tuner record 2 or 3 channels at the same time? Will that allow me to
watch live TV at the same time if I want to?

I guess I'll need a video card that has component outputs to the TV.

What else do I need to consider?


Thanks

David Kirk


nick.rout at gmail

Mar 22, 2010, 4:04 PM

Post #2 of 61 (5883 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:11 AM, David Kirk <davidrkirk [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I've been lurking on the list for a while.  Now I'm finally going to get
> around to building my first MythTV box.  I was hoping I could get some
> recommendations from you all.
>
> I have a satellite dish setup already and after a few adjustments I'm
> getting a pretty good signal.  We don't have a flash LCD or plasma TV.  We
> are happy with our CRT for now, so I don't need to bother with DVB-T.  We
> only watch the Freeview channels.  We don't have Sky.
>
> Basically what I want is a small quiet PC sitting under the TV with a dual
> DVB-S tuner card and a big hard drive for storing recordings.  I'd like to
> be able to record 1 or 2 channels at the same time and also be able to watch
> recorded programs at the same time.

Each card can capture a whole multiplex (subject to being able to
write to the disk fast enough)

One multiplex has Prime, TV3, C4, Stratos, Parliament, Cue TeReo and
TV3+1 and the radio stations

The other has TV1, TV2, TVNZ6, TVNZ7, Maori

If you have two tuners you can record all this at once (subject as
above). If you have one tuner you are restricted to one multiplex at a
time.

> Front end and backend will be on the
> same PC.
>
> Firstly I'll need a PC to install on.  How grunty does it need to be for
> what I am using it.

It doesn't, particularly if you have a vdpau capable nvidia card,
which is HIGHLY recommended. However if you want to do commflagging or
transcoding, CPU does become important.

>Should I get a full blown PC or is there something less
> power hungry around?  I've seen the Zotac Ion, but it doesn't seem to have
> any PCI slots for adding a tuner.  I assume people use these as frontends
> only.  Is there something else similar that might be suitable or do I need
> something with more grunt for a backend/frontend setup?

ION's advantages are low power and vdpau. An atom processor
(particularly a single core) will not do much commflagging or
transcoding.



>
> I'll also need some tuners.  I've had a quick look around and found the TBS
> 6980 PCI-E DVB-S2 Dual Tuner Card
> http://www.justtech.co.nz/shop/satellite-equipment/tbs-6980-pci-e-dvb-s2-dual-tuner-card.
> It comes with a remote and IR receiver and it is apparently supported by
> Linux.  Has anyone had any experience with this card, or is there something
> else I should consider?

One thing you should consider is that this card is PCI-E whereas you
were talking before about PCI slots...

>
> Is it really necessary to have 2 tuners?  I've heard that a single tuner can
> stream multiple channels at the same time.  Is this true?  Can I have a
> single tuner record 2 or 3 channels at the same time?  Will that allow me to
> watch live TV at the same time if I want to?
>
> I guess I'll need a video card that has component outputs to the TV.
>
> What else do I need to consider?
>
>
> Thanks
>
> David Kirk
>

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criggie at criggie

Mar 22, 2010, 4:59 PM

Post #3 of 61 (5884 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

David Kirk wrote, On 23/03/10 11:12:
> I have a satellite dish setup already and after a few adjustments I'm
> getting a pretty good signal. We don't have a flash LCD or plasma
> TV. We are happy with our CRT for now, so I don't need to bother with
> DVB-T. We only watch the Freeview channels. We don't have Sky.
>
> Basically what I want is a small quiet PC sitting under the TV with a
> dual DVB-S tuner card and a big hard drive for storing recordings.
> I'd like to be able to record 1 or 2 channels at the same time and
> also be able to watch recorded programs at the same time. Front end
> and backend will be on the same PC.
Consider a separate frontend / backend. I've got a box running 24/7 out
in the garage, with the tuner cards etc connected.
The inside box is a little one that gets turned off, and the garage one
is a dual core with 4 disks etc.
Your combo machine has to be on all the time to do recordings, so noise
might be a factor in your place.
> Firstly I'll need a PC to install on. How grunty does it need to be
> for what I am using it. Should I get a full blown PC or is there
> something less power hungry around? I've seen the Zotac Ion, but it
> doesn't seem to have any PCI slots for adding a tuner. I assume
> people use these as frontends only. Is there something else similar
> that might be suitable or do I need something with more grunt for a
> backend/frontend setup?
Grunt is good for a backend, but not so important for a front end.
Others have said a VDPAU nvidia card is recommended which is good
advice. Mine's an older AGP nvidia card which works fine for SD content.

> I'll also need some tuners. I've had a quick look around and found
> the TBS 6980 PCI-E DVB-S2 Dual Tuner Card
> http://www.justtech.co.nz/shop/satellite-equipment/tbs-6980-pci-e-dvb-s2-dual-tuner-card.
> It comes with a remote and IR receiver and it is apparently supported
> by Linux. Has anyone had any experience with this card, or is there
> something else I should consider?
Never heard of that card sorry. If you have a separate backend then the
remote functionality of the tuner card is useless.
Many people prefer a USB remote for flexibility.
I was tempted to try this with a bluetooth dongle,
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32011
or one of these http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.34434

> Is it really necessary to have 2 tuners? I've heard that a single
> tuner can stream multiple channels at the same time. Is this true?
> Can I have a single tuner record 2 or 3 channels at the same time?
> Will that allow me to watch live TV at the same time if I want to?
Just get two tuners. Strictly speaking not required, but its much
better. I have recorded 10 different programs at once (as a test) and
it worked fine using two tuner cards. If you only have one tuner,
then you are limited to one of the to transponders at a time.

LiveTV is not as useful as it sounds. I only use it for testing.
LiveTV is just a stream off the current transponder, so if you had one
tuner and its recording, you can only watch LiveTV off one of the
channels on that transponder.

Just get two tuners.

> I guess I'll need a video card that has component outputs to the TV.
Another box of worms.... you currently have an analogue CRT TV which
will probably have RF (old aerial) and composite (yellow) video in. It
might have any of component (3 rca connectors in red/green/blue) , scart
(whacky oblong thing), etc etc.

How big is the current CRT? You could use a VGA LCD short term.... a
22" is about $300 or a 32" LCD with HDMI doing 720p is about $700
retail. No point buying a 1080p capable screen if you're only using
DVB-S (other than DVDs/blueray etc)

> What else do I need to consider?

Speakers? A stereo with line-in works well, or use the speakers in the TV.



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davidrkirk at gmail

Mar 22, 2010, 7:36 PM

Post #4 of 61 (5880 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

Hey Nick,

> Each card can capture a whole multiplex (subject to being able to
> write to the disk fast enough)
>
> One multiplex has Prime, TV3, C4, Stratos, Parliament, Cue TeReo and
> TV3+1 and the radio stations
>
> The other has TV1, TV2, TVNZ6, TVNZ7, Maori

Ok, that clears it up.  I'll definately go with the 2 tuners.

>
> > I'll also need some tuners.  I've had a quick look around and found the TBS
> One thing you should consider is that this card is PCI-E whereas you
> were talking before about PCI slots...

I'm a bit out of touch with the hardware world.  I'd assume most new
computers would have a PCI-E socket? I'll check the spec's of
whatever I decide to purchase.


Thanks

David Kirk

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davidrkirk at gmail

Mar 22, 2010, 7:58 PM

Post #5 of 61 (5873 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:59 PM, <criggie [at] criggie> wrote:

> Consider a separate frontend / backend.  I've got a box running 24/7 out
> in the garage, with the tuner cards etc connected.
> The inside box is a little one that gets turned off, and the garage one
> is a dual core with 4 disks etc.
> Your combo machine has to be on all the time to do recordings, so noise
> might be a factor in your place.

If I put a separate backend in the garage, would 802.11g wireless to
the frontend be sufficient or will it require a wired network
connection?

> LiveTV is not as useful as it sounds.  I only use it for testing.
> LiveTV is just a stream off the current transponder, so if you had one
> tuner and its recording, you can only watch LiveTV off one of the
> channels on that transponder.
>
> Just get two tuners.

I'll go for 2 tuners. I'm hoping to change the way we watch TV from
watching it when it is on to recording it and watching it when I want
to watch it. I'd still like the option though.

>> I guess I'll need a video card that has component outputs to the TV.
> Another box of worms.... you currently have an analogue CRT TV which
> will probably have RF (old aerial) and composite (yellow) video in.  It
> might have any of component (3 rca connectors in red/green/blue) , scart
> (whacky oblong thing), etc etc.

The TV has SCART and component connectors. It might even have
composite. Are there any video cards with component outputs? If not,
I guess I can go with composite. You mentioned VDPAU. What does that
give me, and is it really necessary for a system with SD content going
through composite or component video?

> How big is the current CRT?  You could use a VGA LCD short term.... a
> 22" is about $300 or a 32" LCD with HDMI doing 720p is about $700
> retail.   No point buying a 1080p capable screen if you're only using
> DVB-S (other than DVDs/blueray etc)

I may look to upgrade the TV later on, but right now I just need to
get some way of recording stuff.

> Speakers?  A stereo with line-in works well, or use the speakers in the TV.

The TV came with a home theatre system. It does 5.1 from the DVD
player, but I don't recall seeing any inputs for more than stereo. I
guess I just take a cable from the sound card to the 2 RCA connectors
for left and right.


Thanks

David Kirk

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nickw at beekeeping

Mar 22, 2010, 8:05 PM

Post #6 of 61 (5886 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

My experience is that once you get MythTV up and running, there is never
any real advantage to watching LiveTV - and all sorts of reasons to set it
to recording and then watch the recording instead.

Nick

> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:59 PM, <criggie [at] criggie> wrote:
>
>> Consider a separate frontend / backend.  I've got a box running 24/7 out
>> in the garage, with the tuner cards etc connected.
>> The inside box is a little one that gets turned off, and the garage one
>> is a dual core with 4 disks etc.
>> Your combo machine has to be on all the time to do recordings, so noise
>> might be a factor in your place.
>
> If I put a separate backend in the garage, would 802.11g wireless to
> the frontend be sufficient or will it require a wired network
> connection?
>
>> LiveTV is not as useful as it sounds.  I only use it for testing.
>> LiveTV is just a stream off the current transponder, so if you had one
>> tuner and its recording, you can only watch LiveTV off one of the
>> channels on that transponder.
>>
>> Just get two tuners.
>
> I'll go for 2 tuners. I'm hoping to change the way we watch TV from
> watching it when it is on to recording it and watching it when I want
> to watch it. I'd still like the option though.
>
>>> I guess I'll need a video card that has component outputs to the TV.
>> Another box of worms.... you currently have an analogue CRT TV which
>> will probably have RF (old aerial) and composite (yellow) video in.  It
>> might have any of component (3 rca connectors in red/green/blue) , scart
>> (whacky oblong thing), etc etc.
>
> The TV has SCART and component connectors. It might even have
> composite. Are there any video cards with component outputs? If not,
> I guess I can go with composite. You mentioned VDPAU. What does that
> give me, and is it really necessary for a system with SD content going
> through composite or component video?
>
>> How big is the current CRT?  You could use a VGA LCD short term.... a
>> 22" is about $300 or a 32" LCD with HDMI doing 720p is about $700
>> retail.   No point buying a 1080p capable screen if you're only using
>> DVB-S (other than DVDs/blueray etc)
>
> I may look to upgrade the TV later on, but right now I just need to
> get some way of recording stuff.
>
>> Speakers?  A stereo with line-in works well, or use the speakers in the
>> TV.
>
> The TV came with a home theatre system. It does 5.1 from the DVD
> player, but I don't recall seeing any inputs for more than stereo. I
> guess I just take a cable from the sound card to the 2 RCA connectors
> for left and right.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> David Kirk
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
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>


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stephen_agent at jsw

Mar 22, 2010, 8:31 PM

Post #7 of 61 (5874 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:36:10 +1300, you wrote:

>> > I'll also need some tuners.  I've had a quick look around and found the TBS
>> One thing you should consider is that this card is PCI-E whereas you
>> were talking before about PCI slots...
>
>I'm a bit out of touch with the hardware world.  I'd assume most new
>computers would have a PCI-E socket? I'll check the spec's of
>whatever I decide to purchase.

There are far fewer PCIe cards with Linux drivers than there are PCI
cards. And the PCIe drivers can be very new and are not available in
the kernels in common use. I am just fighting a problem like that -
my TeVii S470 DVB-S2 card is only supported by a newer version of V4L
that is not in the current Mythbuntu 9.04 kernels. And when I install
a newer V4L or newer kernel with the new V4L builtin, my DVB-T tuners
stop working with MythTV (although they still work with Kaffeine).

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stephen_agent at jsw

Mar 22, 2010, 8:34 PM

Post #8 of 61 (5875 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:05:55 +1300 (NZDT), you wrote:

>My experience is that once you get MythTV up and running, there is never
>any real advantage to watching LiveTV - and all sorts of reasons to set it
>to recording and then watch the recording instead.

Yes, since you can watch a recording while it is still recording,
there is no need to watch live. Since I got MythTV I have never
watched anything live - I only use LiveTV for testing purposes (for
which it is very useful).

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hads at nice

Mar 22, 2010, 8:35 PM

Post #9 of 61 (5872 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 16:31 +1300, Stephen Worthington wrote:
> There are far fewer PCIe cards with Linux drivers than there are PCI
> cards. And the PCIe drivers can be very new and are not available in
> the kernels in common use.

Yes it's probably wise for your average user to stick with hardware that
has a driver in kernel that is known to work.

hads

--
http://nicegear.co.nz
New Zealand's Open Source Hardware Supplier


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jfpn at clearfield

Mar 22, 2010, 8:47 PM

Post #10 of 61 (5866 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

> If I put a separate backend in the garage, would 802.11g wireless to
> the frontend be sufficient or will it require a wired network
> connection?

802.11g won't cut it.

802.11n might, you would want 300Mbps 802.11n, not the 150Mbps 802.11n Lite.
Also 5Ghz would be better then 2.4Ghz as it's not as heavily used, but linux
support is an issue.

But a wired network will save you a lot of hassles.


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nick.rout at gmail

Mar 22, 2010, 8:52 PM

Post #11 of 61 (5878 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 3:58 PM, David Kirk <davidrkirk [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:59 PM,  <criggie [at] criggie> wrote:
>
>> Consider a separate frontend / backend.  I've got a box running 24/7 out
>> in the garage, with the tuner cards etc connected.
>> The inside box is a little one that gets turned off, and the garage one
>> is a dual core with 4 disks etc.
>> Your combo machine has to be on all the time to do recordings, so noise
>> might be a factor in your place.
>
> If I put a separate backend in the garage, would 802.11g wireless to
> the frontend be sufficient or will it require a wired network
> connection?

You MAY get acceptable performance with G but I haven't managed to -
see the thread a week or so ago on CLUG about running cables...

It doesn't have to be your garage either. I have a Harry Potter
cupboard under the stairs...

>
>> LiveTV is not as useful as it sounds.  I only use it for testing.
>> LiveTV is just a stream off the current transponder, so if you had one
>> tuner and its recording, you can only watch LiveTV off one of the
>> channels on that transponder.
>>
>> Just get two tuners.
>
> I'll go for 2 tuners.  I'm hoping to change the way we watch TV from
> watching it when it is on to recording it and watching it when I want
> to watch it.  I'd still like the option though.
>
>>> I guess I'll need a video card that has component outputs to the TV.
>> Another box of worms.... you currently have an analogue CRT TV which
>> will probably have RF (old aerial) and composite (yellow) video in.  It
>> might have any of component (3 rca connectors in red/green/blue) , scart
>> (whacky oblong thing), etc etc.
>
> The TV has SCART and component connectors.  It might even have
> composite.  Are there any video cards with component outputs?  If not,
> I guess I can go with composite.  You mentioned VDPAU.  What does that
> give me, and is it really necessary for a system with SD content going
> through composite or component video?

VDPAU is hardware acceleration on the GPU, on nVidia 8xxx 9xxx and 2xx
cards (yes the numbering system went that way).

You will get a far better picture, including much better
deinterlacing, with vdpau. You will also get much less CPU usage, and
if you want to watch any HD TV in the furture (either from freeview or
rips from HD material) you are future proofed.

As for finding a card that will do component or RGB with vdpau, I'll
leave you to find the right card.


>
>> How big is the current CRT?  You could use a VGA LCD short term.... a
>> 22" is about $300 or a 32" LCD with HDMI doing 720p is about $700
>> retail.   No point buying a 1080p capable screen if you're only using
>> DVB-S (other than DVDs/blueray etc)
>
> I may look to upgrade the TV later on, but right now I just need to
> get some way of recording stuff.
>
>> Speakers?  A stereo with line-in works well, or use the speakers in the TV.
>
> The TV came with a home theatre system.  It does 5.1 from the DVD
> player, but I don't recall seeing any inputs for more than stereo.  I
> guess I just take a cable from the sound card to the 2 RCA connectors
> for left and right.
>

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criggie at criggie

Mar 22, 2010, 11:02 PM

Post #12 of 61 (5874 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

David Kirk wrote:
> If I put a separate backend in the garage, would 802.11g wireless to
> the frontend be sufficient or will it require a wired network
> connection?

Maybe - I have a eee laptop that works as a frontend fine over 11g, but
its a bit laggier. Wired ethernet is all good.

> The TV has SCART and component connectors. It might even have
> composite. Are there any video cards with component outputs? If not,
> I guess I can go with composite. You mentioned VDPAU. What does that
> give me, and is it really necessary for a system with SD content going
> through composite or component video?

VDPAU is hardware acceleration done in the NVidia chipset. Its good,
but not essential. None of my gear supports it, and all playback SD
recordings fine. It makes the difference with HD I understand.

This might be your most difficult part of the problem.

You have options -
1) get a video card that has composite out
2) get a video card that has HDMI out and find some HDMI to Component
adapter box thing
2b) Use a VGA to Composite adapter box
3) use a VGA LCD in the meantime and retask it on your desktop later
4) blow the budget and get a HDMI TV and HDMI video card.


> I guess I just take a cable from the sound card to the 2 RCA connectors
> for left and right.

Yes that'll be fine.


--
Criggie

http://criggie.dyndns.org/

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tortise at paradise

Mar 23, 2010, 12:29 AM

Post #13 of 61 (5876 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Kirk" <davidrkirk [at] gmail>
To: "MythTV in NZ" <mythtvnz [at] lists>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [mythtvnz] Hardware Recommendations


On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:59 PM, <criggie [at] criggie> wrote:

>>> I guess I'll need a video card that has component outputs to the TV.
>> Another box of worms.... you currently have an analogue CRT TV which
> will probably have RF (old aerial) and composite (yellow) video in. It
> might have any of component (3 rca connectors in red/green/blue) , scart
> (whacky oblong thing), etc etc.

>The TV has SCART and component connectors. It might even have
composite.

>Are there any video cards with component outputs?

Yes, usually via dongle

>If not, I guess I can go with composite. You mentioned VDPAU. What does that
give me, and is it really necessary for a system with SD content going
through composite or component video?

>> How big is the current CRT? You could use a VGA LCD short term.... a
> 22" is about $300 or a 32" LCD with HDMI doing 720p is about $700
> retail. No point buying a 1080p capable screen if you're only using
> DVB-S (other than DVDs/blueray etc)

>I may look to upgrade the TV later on, but right now I just need to
get some way of recording stuff.


You might get more focussed comment out of the list if you advised your TV brand and model number. A URL to its manual is likely to
get you even more specific advise. For example how this might help, from what's been said I cannot be sure whether you have
component or RGB in to your TV and certainly what you'd, at best, see given either of those inputs.

Also see http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Vdpau - and use the search tool.


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blmiller at slingshot

Mar 23, 2010, 12:48 AM

Post #14 of 61 (5872 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

There are loads of vdpau capable video cards with component out & DVI/VGA.
Asus 9400GT for one..there are 3 ? versions of this, some with no
component only HDMI (Bad).
The component out will do HD1080 as well.
Must check (cheque) the full/exact part number

Many of us are waiting for the nVidia GT220 silent to arrive on our shores.
This should have the performance/price/power as a winning combination.

The later DVI video cards can be connected to HDMI TV later anyway.
HDMI is a subset of the capability of DVI.

You may need a custom modeline to get the best out your CRT.

Wired networks are more pain to build but can not be bettered by
wireless except on the couch with a laptop.

On 23/03/2010 7:02 p.m., criggie [at] criggie wrote:
> David Kirk wrote:
>
>> If I put a separate backend in the garage, would 802.11g wireless to
>> the frontend be sufficient or will it require a wired network
>> connection?
>>
> Maybe - I have a eee laptop that works as a frontend fine over 11g, but
> its a bit laggier. Wired ethernet is all good.
>
>
>> The TV has SCART and component connectors. It might even have
>> composite. Are there any video cards with component outputs? If not,
>> I guess I can go with composite. You mentioned VDPAU. What does that
>> give me, and is it really necessary for a system with SD content going
>> through composite or component video?
>>
> VDPAU is hardware acceleration done in the NVidia chipset. Its good,
> but not essential. None of my gear supports it, and all playback SD
> recordings fine. It makes the difference with HD I understand.
>
> This might be your most difficult part of the problem.
>
> You have options -
> 1) get a video card that has composite out
> 2) get a video card that has HDMI out and find some HDMI to Component
> adapter box thing
> 2b) Use a VGA to Composite adapter box
> 3) use a VGA LCD in the meantime and retask it on your desktop later
> 4) blow the budget and get a HDMI TV and HDMI video card.
>
>
> > I guess I just take a cable from the sound card to the 2 RCA connectors
>
>> for left and right.
>>
> Yes that'll be fine.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2760 - Release Date: 03/20/10 19:33:00
>
>


tdegibson at gmail

Mar 23, 2010, 1:21 AM

Post #15 of 61 (5877 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

Hi David

I've still got my old 29" CRT hooked up in the other room and my current
FE/BE machine is an older Celeron 2.8GHz CPU with an nVidia 6200 video card,
I've two separate DVB-S tuners, no HD as UHF reception here is not strong
enough. Out of the 6200 I'm using the dongle to send an s-video signal
around the house (my CRT can't handle component). This also goes to the LCD
in the main living room.

Like other's I've found we don't watch too much live TV anymore, just
program the guide what you normally watch and just add new programs as they
start, my database is around five year's old so it's quite valuable to me
now, make sure you set up a BACKUP regime for your database. Heroes is back
on C4 didn't even know till I was going through my recordings...

I've just updated my main desktop so soon I'll have a flash new FE/BE 1.8GHz
Core2 and a 9600GT.

Regards
Tim

On 23 March 2010 20:48, Brett Miller <blmiller [at] slingshot> wrote:

>
> There are loads of vdpau capable video cards with component out & DVI/VGA.
> Asus 9400GT for one..there are 3 ? versions of this, some with no
> component only HDMI (Bad).
> The component out will do HD1080 as well.
> Must check (cheque) the full/exact part number
>
> Many of us are waiting for the nVidia GT220 silent to arrive on our shores.
> This should have the performance/price/power as a winning combination.
>
> The later DVI video cards can be connected to HDMI TV later anyway.
> HDMI is a subset of the capability of DVI.
>
> You may need a custom modeline to get the best out your CRT.
>
> Wired networks are more pain to build but can not be bettered by wireless
> except on the couch with a laptop.
>
>
> On 23/03/2010 7:02 p.m., criggie [at] criggie wrote:
>
> David Kirk wrote:
>
>
> If I put a separate backend in the garage, would 802.11g wireless to
> the frontend be sufficient or will it require a wired network
> connection?
>
>
> Maybe - I have a eee laptop that works as a frontend fine over 11g, but
> its a bit laggier. Wired ethernet is all good.
>
>
>
> The TV has SCART and component connectors. It might even have
> composite. Are there any video cards with component outputs? If not,
> I guess I can go with composite. You mentioned VDPAU. What does that
> give me, and is it really necessary for a system with SD content going
> through composite or component video?
>
>
> VDPAU is hardware acceleration done in the NVidia chipset. Its good,
> but not essential. None of my gear supports it, and all playback SD
> recordings fine. It makes the difference with HD I understand.
>
> This might be your most difficult part of the problem.
>
> You have options -
> 1) get a video card that has composite out
> 2) get a video card that has HDMI out and find some HDMI to Component
> adapter box thing
> 2b) Use a VGA to Composite adapter box
> 3) use a VGA LCD in the meantime and retask it on your desktop later
> 4) blow the budget and get a HDMI TV and HDMI video card.
>
>
> > I guess I just take a cable from the sound card to the 2 RCA connectors
>
>
> for left and right.
>
>
> Yes that'll be fine.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2760 - Release Date: 03/20/10 19:33:00
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>
>


--
Regards
Tim, Donna and Erin Gibson


davidrkirk at gmail

Mar 23, 2010, 1:50 PM

Post #16 of 61 (5834 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for all your responses.  You've all been very helpful.

I've found a DVI to component cable, so I'll get an NVidia card with
VPDAU and DVI output and connect to the component sockets on the TV.
The video card will have HDMI as well, so I'm future proofed there.

I've done a bit of searching about the TBS 6980 tuner card.  Mixed
messages about it working with MythTV, but I'll make sure I can return
it if it is not suitable.  This link says it should work
http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/product/6980.html. That page even has a
MythTV logo on it.  I just really like the idea of having both tuners
on the same card so it takes up less space inside the PC.  I'll make
sure the PC I choose has room for 2 individual tuners just in case.

I know it would be preferable to have a backend system in the garage,
or in the "Harry Potter" cupboard under the stairs, but while I'm
still dealing exclusively with SD content, I think I'll just combine
them in to one box in the TV cabinet. As I understand it, when I
start dealing with HD content I'll need a gruntier box and maybe more
storage.

Now I just have to find the right PC and case to put it all in.


Thanks

David Kirk

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nick.rout at gmail

Mar 23, 2010, 2:18 PM

Post #17 of 61 (5838 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 9:50 AM, David Kirk <davidrkirk [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> Thanks for all your responses.  You've all been very helpful.
>
> I've found a DVI to component cable, so I'll get an NVidia card with
> VPDAU and DVI output and connect to the component sockets on the TV.

Danger Danger Will Robinson: There are at least two types of DVI,
digital and analogue. I THINK that a DVI->component connector will
only work with DVI-A whereas the output from most DVI graphics cards
is DVI-D.

You probably really are stuck between modern video cards, very few of
which support analogue out, and an old TV with no digital inputs.

SCART may have some options, but you need to know what options your
scart in supports. scart has a number of options, s-video, RGB and
component, but not all are necessarily supported in a given device.
There is a method, I believe, of doing VGA to SCART-RGB. It involves a
small amount of electronics.


> The video card will have HDMI as well, so I'm future proofed there.
>
> I've done a bit of searching about the TBS 6980 tuner card.  Mixed
> messages about it working with MythTV, but I'll make sure I can return
> it if it is not suitable.  This link says it should work
> http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/product/6980.html.  That page even has a
> MythTV logo on it.  I just really like the idea of having both tuners
> on the same card so it takes up less space inside the PC.  I'll make
> sure the PC I choose has room for 2 individual tuners just in case.
>
> I know it would be preferable to have a backend system in the garage,
> or in the "Harry Potter" cupboard under the stairs, but while I'm
> still dealing exclusively with SD content, I think I'll just combine
> them in to one box in the TV cabinet.  As I understand it, when I
> start dealing with HD content I'll need a gruntier box and maybe more
> storage.
>
> Now I just have to find the right PC and case to put it all in.

The beauty of the split approach is that your grunty backend can be as
ugly as hell, and you have a nice, eg, revo in your lounge.

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nick.rout at gmail

Mar 23, 2010, 2:20 PM

Post #18 of 61 (5819 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:

>
> SCART may have some options, but you need to know what options your
> scart in supports. scart has a number of options, s-video, RGB and
> component, but not all are necessarily supported in a given device.
> There is a method, I believe, of doing VGA to SCART-RGB. It involves a
> small amount of electronics.

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/RGB_Scart

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davidrkirk at gmail

Mar 23, 2010, 3:49 PM

Post #19 of 61 (5826 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

Hey Nick,

> Danger Danger Will Robinson: There are at least two types of DVI,
> digital and analogue. I THINK that a DVI->component connector will
> only work with DVI-A whereas the output from most DVI graphics cards
> is DVI-D.

Thanks for the warning.

> SCART may have some options, but you need to know what options your
> scart in supports. scart has a number of options, s-video, RGB and
> component, but not all are necessarily supported in a given device.
> There is a method, I believe, of doing VGA to SCART-RGB. It involves a
> small amount of electronics.

There seem to be some VGA to component cables around. Do you think
that would work? It's all analogue signals right?

The back of the TV has about 4 SCART connectors. At least 2 of them
already have adaptors in them that have composite cables going in to
them, but they also have S-video sockets on them. The TV is a
Panasonic 76PW60A. The manual is at
http://panasonic.com.au/content/library/files/F000623.pdf. Pages 32
to 34 give details about connecting devices.

I will replace the TV eventually, but for now I'm stuck with it.


Thanks

David Kirk

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nick.rout at gmail

Mar 23, 2010, 5:14 PM

Post #20 of 61 (5833 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 11:49 AM, David Kirk <davidrkirk [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hey Nick,
>
>> Danger Danger Will Robinson: There are at least two types of DVI,
>> digital and analogue. I THINK that a DVI->component connector will
>> only work with DVI-A whereas the output from most DVI graphics cards
>> is DVI-D.
>
> Thanks for the warning.
>
>> SCART may have some options, but you need to know what options your
>> scart in supports. scart has a number of options, s-video, RGB and
>> component, but not all are necessarily supported in a given device.
>> There is a method, I believe, of doing VGA to SCART-RGB. It involves a
>> small amount of electronics.
>
> There seem to be some VGA to component cables around.  Do you think
> that would work?  It's all analogue signals right?
>
> The back of the TV has about 4 SCART connectors.  At least 2 of them
> already have adaptors in them that have composite cables going in to
> them, but they also have S-video sockets on them.  The TV is a
> Panasonic 76PW60A.  The manual is at
> http://panasonic.com.au/content/library/files/F000623.pdf.  Pages 32
> to 34 give details about connecting devices.
>
> I will replace the TV eventually, but for now I'm stuck with it.

Component comes in two flavours, RGB and YPbPr. SCART officially only
carries RGB, but it looks like yours will carry YPbPr as well (see
connectors AV1/AV4 on page 32).

Most video cards that do component do YPbPr so if you find a component
video card that works with VDPAU that should be your best bet. If it
does HDMI/DVI then you are future proofed too. DVI and HDMI can be
considered electrically equivalent.

Take a look at the relevant wikipedia pages for details on all the
terms we are discussing. It's basically where most of my knowledge of
such matters comes from, and from being on the mythtv-users list.

>
>
> Thanks
>
> David Kirk
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>

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stephen_agent at jsw

Mar 23, 2010, 6:15 PM

Post #21 of 61 (5832 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:50:30 +1300, you wrote:

>Hey everyone,
>
>Thanks for all your responses.  You've all been very helpful.
>
>I've found a DVI to component cable, so I'll get an NVidia card with
>VPDAU and DVI output and connect to the component sockets on the TV.
>The video card will have HDMI as well, so I'm future proofed there.
>
>I've done a bit of searching about the TBS 6980 tuner card.  Mixed
>messages about it working with MythTV, but I'll make sure I can return
>it if it is not suitable.  This link says it should work
>http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/product/6980.html. That page even has a
>MythTV logo on it.  I just really like the idea of having both tuners
>on the same card so it takes up less space inside the PC.  I'll make
>sure the PC I choose has room for 2 individual tuners just in case.

Problem: The drivers listed on that page are for 2.6.32 kernel. The
current kernel in Ubuntu is 2.6.31 (2.6.31-20 at the moment), until
Mythbuntu 10.4 comes out at the end of April. So you may well run
into the same problem I seem to have at present with my new my TeVii
S470 DVB-S2 card, which is that the drivers seem to upgrade the Video
4 Linux version (V4L), and this breaks things. I can not get MythTV
to use my three DVB-T tuners with the new drivers for installed. They
are usable in Kaffeine, but MythTV fails to tune them. And w_scan
does not work, saying it is incompatible with the new version.

I am just trying out Mythbuntu 10.04 beta1 today, to see if the
pre-release MythTV 0.23 works with the new kernel and will run all my
tuners at once. But I am having problems getting it to work (it
really is rather alpha-ish, with various things obviously broken).
Mythbuntu 10.04 beta1 is using the 2.6.32-16 kernel currently.

>I know it would be preferable to have a backend system in the garage,
>or in the "Harry Potter" cupboard under the stairs, but while I'm
>still dealing exclusively with SD content, I think I'll just combine
>them in to one box in the TV cabinet. As I understand it, when I
>start dealing with HD content I'll need a gruntier box and maybe more
>storage.
>
>Now I just have to find the right PC and case to put it all in.

The basic problem with building a MythTV box is noise. One intended
for a bedroom needs to be extremely quiet. One in a lounge needs only
to be quiet. I built one for my mother just before Christmas, and I
kept it fairly quiet by using a Gigabyte M85M-US2H motherboard that
had builtin Nvidia 8400GS video (with no fan), and a Zalman ZM500-HP
power supply. The result is that the loudest sound from the box is
the hard disk (Seagate ST31000528AS) when it is doing something. The
CPU fan on the Athlon II X2 245 processor and the power supply fan
fade into the background in the lounge. The fans on normal Nvidia
graphics cards are rather noisy and would be quite noticeable and
annoying, which is why I also got an Asus "silent" model 8400GS card
for my own MythTV box in my bedroom when I updated it to use VDPAU.
The Gigabyte M85M-US2H motherboard does seem to still be available
from a small number of NZ retailers, but they may have just forgotten
to update their databases as it has disappeared from Ascent's web
site. I would recommend it for MythTV boxes.

The 8400GS GPU is a little underpowered for using the higher
deinterlace modes, but I have not personally found the lower modes to
be a problem. Note that there seem to have been two versions of
8400GS chips - the M85M-US2H uses the newer much better version, as
does my silent 8400GS:

http://www.ascent.co.nz/productspecification.aspx?ItemID=9384472

The new version 8400GS chips seem to actually be derived from the 9000
series GPUs, rather than the 8000 series.

Warning: The M85M-US2H motherboard has DVI-D and HDMI outputs only.
There is also a D-Sub (VGA) connector for analogue monitors, but I am
not sure if you can get VGA to component converters in NZ, and if you
can they will not be cheap. The HDMI supports audio over HDMI.

The Asus silent 8400GS card has DVI-I, D-Sub (VGA) and S-Video
outputs, and comes with an S-Video to component converter cable (which
I have never tried using). Since the component out is via an S-Video
connector, I would presume that it will produce YPbPr component
signals, not RGB. But I could not find anything in the documentation
to say for sure. I am using it with a DVI to HDMI cable, and running
the sound from the PC sound card over SPDIF to my hifi system, so I
can not say if it supports audio over DVI->HDMI.

A number of people seem to be waiting for the arrival of silent GT220
based cards, which should provide all the GPU needed to use the
highest deinterlace modes at a fairly cheap price. Given the
relatively low price of the silent 8400GS card, you could just get one
of them and see if it works for you, with the option of updating later
to a GT220 based one if lower deinterlace modes are a problem.

>Thanks
>
>David Kirk

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blmiller at slingshot

Mar 23, 2010, 9:03 PM

Post #22 of 61 (5842 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

The Asus en9400GT has DVI-I & DVI-D & component dongle connector.
Can drive three independent screens.

The later nVidia chipsets have better driver support & more hardware
decode capability.

I use the DVI-A to VGA cable to CRT (VGA input) & DVI-D cable to small LCD.
The component output was just as flexible configuration as the VGA.
The VGA was just a tidier solution.

VGA is analogue RGB with separate H & V sync.
SCART can connect composite, s-video & RGB+sync.
Some (very few) SCART (crap spelt wrong) devices accept RGBs.
SCART RGB sync can be combined on green ? or into s-video luminence ?
Can make an adaptor to combine the sync signals & stuff into one of the
s-video lines.

DVI-I is DVI-D & DVI-A in same connector: can use adaptor to VGA &
adaptor to HDMI.

Normal 19 pin HDMI is single link only (fine for 1080p) & was speced by
consumer electronics groups.
DDWG DVI supports dual link speced from computer industry groups.

If you a concerned about future connectivity then VESA Displayport
connector is the way...
VESA Displayport is DVI with all the nasty DRM stuff from HDMI built-in
for our benefit.


On 24/03/2010 2:15 p.m., Stephen Worthington wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:50:30 +1300, you wrote:
>
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> Thanks for all your responses. You've all been very helpful.
>>
>> I've found a DVI to component cable, so I'll get an NVidia card with
>> VPDAU and DVI output and connect to the component sockets on the TV.
>> The video card will have HDMI as well, so I'm future proofed there.
>>
>> I've done a bit of searching about the TBS 6980 tuner card. Mixed
>> messages about it working with MythTV, but I'll make sure I can return
>> it if it is not suitable. This link says it should work
>> http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/product/6980.html. That page even has a
>> MythTV logo on it. I just really like the idea of having both tuners
>> on the same card so it takes up less space inside the PC. I'll make
>> sure the PC I choose has room for 2 individual tuners just in case.
>>
> Problem: The drivers listed on that page are for 2.6.32 kernel. The
> current kernel in Ubuntu is 2.6.31 (2.6.31-20 at the moment), until
> Mythbuntu 10.4 comes out at the end of April. So you may well run
> into the same problem I seem to have at present with my new my TeVii
> S470 DVB-S2 card, which is that the drivers seem to upgrade the Video
> 4 Linux version (V4L), and this breaks things. I can not get MythTV
> to use my three DVB-T tuners with the new drivers for installed. They
> are usable in Kaffeine, but MythTV fails to tune them. And w_scan
> does not work, saying it is incompatible with the new version.
>
> I am just trying out Mythbuntu 10.04 beta1 today, to see if the
> pre-release MythTV 0.23 works with the new kernel and will run all my
> tuners at once. But I am having problems getting it to work (it
> really is rather alpha-ish, with various things obviously broken).
> Mythbuntu 10.04 beta1 is using the 2.6.32-16 kernel currently.
>
>
>> I know it would be preferable to have a backend system in the garage,
>> or in the "Harry Potter" cupboard under the stairs, but while I'm
>> still dealing exclusively with SD content, I think I'll just combine
>> them in to one box in the TV cabinet. As I understand it, when I
>> start dealing with HD content I'll need a gruntier box and maybe more
>> storage.
>>
>> Now I just have to find the right PC and case to put it all in.
>>
> The basic problem with building a MythTV box is noise. One intended
> for a bedroom needs to be extremely quiet. One in a lounge needs only
> to be quiet. I built one for my mother just before Christmas, and I
> kept it fairly quiet by using a Gigabyte M85M-US2H motherboard that
> had builtin Nvidia 8400GS video (with no fan), and a Zalman ZM500-HP
> power supply. The result is that the loudest sound from the box is
> the hard disk (Seagate ST31000528AS) when it is doing something. The
> CPU fan on the Athlon II X2 245 processor and the power supply fan
> fade into the background in the lounge. The fans on normal Nvidia
> graphics cards are rather noisy and would be quite noticeable and
> annoying, which is why I also got an Asus "silent" model 8400GS card
> for my own MythTV box in my bedroom when I updated it to use VDPAU.
> The Gigabyte M85M-US2H motherboard does seem to still be available
> from a small number of NZ retailers, but they may have just forgotten
> to update their databases as it has disappeared from Ascent's web
> site. I would recommend it for MythTV boxes.
>
> The 8400GS GPU is a little underpowered for using the higher
> deinterlace modes, but I have not personally found the lower modes to
> be a problem. Note that there seem to have been two versions of
> 8400GS chips - the M85M-US2H uses the newer much better version, as
> does my silent 8400GS:
>
> http://www.ascent.co.nz/productspecification.aspx?ItemID=9384472
>
> The new version 8400GS chips seem to actually be derived from the 9000
> series GPUs, rather than the 8000 series.
>
> Warning: The M85M-US2H motherboard has DVI-D and HDMI outputs only.
> There is also a D-Sub (VGA) connector for analogue monitors, but I am
> not sure if you can get VGA to component converters in NZ, and if you
> can they will not be cheap. The HDMI supports audio over HDMI.
>
> The Asus silent 8400GS card has DVI-I, D-Sub (VGA) and S-Video
> outputs, and comes with an S-Video to component converter cable (which
> I have never tried using). Since the component out is via an S-Video
> connector, I would presume that it will produce YPbPr component
> signals, not RGB. But I could not find anything in the documentation
> to say for sure. I am using it with a DVI to HDMI cable, and running
> the sound from the PC sound card over SPDIF to my hifi system, so I
> can not say if it supports audio over DVI->HDMI.
>
> A number of people seem to be waiting for the arrival of silent GT220
> based cards, which should provide all the GPU needed to use the
> highest deinterlace modes at a fairly cheap price. Given the
> relatively low price of the silent 8400GS card, you could just get one
> of them and see if it works for you, with the option of updating later
> to a GT220 based one if lower deinterlace modes are a problem.
>
>
>> Thanks
>>
>> David Kirk
>>
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>
>
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>


tortise at paradise

Mar 24, 2010, 5:14 PM

Post #23 of 61 (5755 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
From: Brett Miller
To: stephen [at] jsw ; MythTV in NZ
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [mythtvnz] Hardware Recommendations


>The Asus en9400GT has DVI-I & DVI-D & component dongle connector.
>Can drive three independent screens.

Concurrently?

My reading of the NVIDIA driver readme suggests vdpau cards (on their own) will only drive two concurrently.

Have you done that? With one card? I'd love to hear about that.

btw DVI to component adapters can be bought cheaply on trademe.

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nick.rout at gmail

Mar 24, 2010, 5:30 PM

Post #24 of 61 (5753 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Tortise <tortise [at] paradise> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brett Miller
> To: stephen [at] jsw ; MythTV in NZ
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [mythtvnz] Hardware Recommendations
>
>
>>The Asus en9400GT has DVI-I & DVI-D & component dongle connector.
>>Can drive three independent screens.
>
> Concurrently?
>
> My reading of the NVIDIA driver readme suggests vdpau cards (on their own) will only drive two concurrently.
>
> Have you done that?  With one card?  I'd love to hear about that.
>
> btw DVI to component adapters can be bought cheaply on trademe.

Read my warning a few messages back. First one I found on trademe
confirms my warning

"Connectors: DVI-I Male to (3) RCA Male( Red, Green, Blue.)
...
(*)The Cable Not Support your Computer Monitor Video Port, or Y , Cr,
Cb Video. Your Video Source Must Provide a YpbPr Component Video
Signal form the DVI-I Video Ports to Use Cable "

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blmiller at slingshot

Mar 24, 2010, 11:26 PM

Post #25 of 61 (5730 views)
Permalink
Re: Hardware Recommendations [In reply to]

Do not have 3 screens available but I have the component cable connected
to TV as well as VGA.
The nVidia X server settings config utility (xorg.conf file masher)
shows 3 screens: DVI DFP, VGA CRT & TVout (component).
My xorg.conf file does not enable X session for TVout screen.

My VGA CRT screen does not support EDID.
The component cable connection does not either.
I believe the nVidia driver can determine the 75ohm termination on the
component connection therefore presence of screen.
The old AGP nVidia mx440 card did this for sure..

I'll try to enable the 3rd screen & see that all 3 are
independent...might take me some time tho..

On 25/03/2010 1:14 p.m., Tortise wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brett Miller
> To: stephen [at] jsw ; MythTV in NZ
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [mythtvnz] Hardware Recommendations
>
>
>
>> The Asus en9400GT has DVI-I& DVI-D& component dongle connector.
>> Can drive three independent screens.
>>
> Concurrently?
>
> My reading of the NVIDIA driver readme suggests vdpau cards (on their own) will only drive two concurrently.
>
> Have you done that? With one card? I'd love to hear about that.
>
> btw DVI to component adapters can be bought cheaply on trademe.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2768 - Release Date: 03/24/10 19:33:00
>
>

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