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[Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights]

 

 

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hads at nice

Mar 14, 2010, 7:55 PM

Post #1 of 26 (3629 views)
Permalink
[Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights]

Hello,

As you are possibly aware I was hosting the guide data at
epg.pvr.geek.nz

On Friday I received the below email and unfortunately have had to
remove the data from our webserver.

Luckily, as has been discussed in other threads, there are alternatives.
One of the alternatives is no longer watching Sky :)

hads

-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Philip Wood <philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay>
To: info [at] nice <info [at] nice>
Subject: Sky Television: Infringement of rights
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:14:00 +1300

Please see the attached letter.

Yours sincerely

Philip Wood

Philip Wood
Partner
B U D D L E F I N D L A Y
New Zealand Lawyers
PricewaterhouseCoopers Tower, 188 Quay Street, PO Box 1433, Auckland
1140
Tel +64 9 358 2555 | Direct +64 9 357 9385 | Mobile +64 21 624 356 | Fax
+64 9 363 0685
Email philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay | www.buddlefindlay.com

____________________________________________

This message and any attachments may contain information that is
confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you have received this
message in error, please notify the sender immediately.
____________________________________________



--
http://nicegear.co.nz
New Zealand's Open Source Hardware Supplier
Attachments: 1-letter_to_Nice_Technology - Sky Network Television Limited.pdf (83.0 KB)


tortise at paradise

Mar 15, 2010, 2:49 PM

Post #2 of 26 (3558 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hadley Rich" <hads [at] nice>
To: "MythTV in NZ" <mythtvnz [at] lists>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:55 PM
Subject: [mythtvnz] [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights]


> Hello,
>
> As you are possibly aware I was hosting the guide data at
> epg.pvr.geek.nz
>
> On Friday I received the below email and unfortunately have had to
> remove the data from our webserver.
>
> Luckily, as has been discussed in other threads, there are alternatives.
> One of the alternatives is no longer watching Sky :)
>
> hads
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> From: Philip Wood <philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay>
> To: info [at] nice <info [at] nice>
> Subject: Sky Television: Infringement of rights
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:14:00 +1300
>
> Please see the attached letter.
>
> Yours sincerely
>
> Philip Wood
>
> Philip Wood
> Partner
> B U D D L E F I N D L A Y
> New Zealand Lawyers
> PricewaterhouseCoopers Tower, 188 Quay Street, PO Box 1433, Auckland
> 1140
> Tel +64 9 358 2555 | Direct +64 9 357 9385 | Mobile +64 21 624 356 | Fax
> +64 9 363 0685
> Email philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay | www.buddlefindlay.com
>



To comply with the second part of the fourth paragraph - would this require a copy of the email and letter to be available (long
term) on epg.pvr.geek.nz, and any other prominent places similarly linked / referencing, perhaps including geekzone, to help any 3rd
parties become aware of the request? A page explaining, with plenty of SkyTV Google bait might also help achieve the request?


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steven at openmedia

Mar 15, 2010, 3:20 PM

Post #3 of 26 (3556 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

Hadley

Thanks for making this information public, and for all of your work over
the years on providing the EPG data.

Steve.



--------------------------------------------
Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited - The Home of myPVR
email - steven [at] openmedia
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz

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dave2 at wetstring

Mar 16, 2010, 2:04 AM

Post #4 of 26 (3540 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On 15/03/2010 3:55 p.m., Hadley Rich wrote:
> On Friday I received the below email and unfortunately have had to
> remove the data from our webserver.

What he said, except mine was DNS A records (after disputing claims
about what I actually was hosting).

--
David Zanetti <dave2 [at] wetstring>
http://hairy.geek.nz/
Attachments: signature.asc (0.25 KB)


james6.0 at gmail

Mar 16, 2010, 11:41 AM

Post #5 of 26 (3528 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

Somebody needs to take this through court, IANAL but an EPG is a
collection of facts, which can't be copyrighted in itself.

I remember the first guy who got a takedown notice (years ago, I can't
remember who is was) got offers for donations to a legal fund, but he
wanted no truck with it...

It's most frustrating that it always ends up this way





On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Hadley Rich <hads [at] nice> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> As you are possibly aware I was hosting the guide data at
> epg.pvr.geek.nz
>
> On Friday I received the below email and unfortunately have had to
> remove the data from our webserver.
>
> Luckily, as has been discussed in other threads, there are alternatives.
> One of the alternatives is no longer watching Sky :)
>
> hads
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> From: Philip Wood <philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay>
> To: info [at] nice <info [at] nice>
> Subject: Sky Television: Infringement of rights
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:14:00 +1300
>
> Please see the attached letter.
>
> Yours sincerely
>
> Philip Wood
>
> Philip Wood
> Partner
> B U D D L E  F I N D L A Y
> New Zealand Lawyers
> PricewaterhouseCoopers Tower, 188 Quay Street, PO Box 1433, Auckland
> 1140
> Tel +64 9 358 2555 | Direct +64 9 357 9385 | Mobile +64 21 624 356 | Fax
> +64 9 363 0685
> Email philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay | www.buddlefindlay.com
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> This message and any attachments may contain information that is
> confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you have received this
> message in error, please notify the sender immediately.
> ____________________________________________
>
>
>
> --
> http://nicegear.co.nz
> New Zealand's Open Source Hardware Supplier
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
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bjdacre at gmail

Mar 16, 2010, 12:19 PM

Post #6 of 26 (3531 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

James,

Whether or not the specific contents of the epg are copyrightable, I suspect
any particular publication of them is. So while the novels of Jane Austen
are out of copyright, I don't think you can just photocopy any published
version of them...

Brendan

On 17 March 2010 07:41, James Gray <james6.0 [at] gmail> wrote:

> Somebody needs to take this through court, IANAL but an EPG is a
> collection of facts, which can't be copyrighted in itself.
>
> I remember the first guy who got a takedown notice (years ago, I can't
> remember who is was) got offers for donations to a legal fund, but he
> wanted no truck with it...
>
> It's most frustrating that it always ends up this way
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Hadley Rich <hads [at] nice> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > As you are possibly aware I was hosting the guide data at
> > epg.pvr.geek.nz
> >
> > On Friday I received the below email and unfortunately have had to
> > remove the data from our webserver.
> >
> > Luckily, as has been discussed in other threads, there are alternatives.
> > One of the alternatives is no longer watching Sky :)
> >
> > hads
> >
> > -------- Forwarded Message --------
> > From: Philip Wood <philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay>
> > To: info [at] nice <info [at] nice>
> > Subject: Sky Television: Infringement of rights
> > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:14:00 +1300
> >
> > Please see the attached letter.
> >
> > Yours sincerely
> >
> > Philip Wood
> >
> > Philip Wood
> > Partner
> > B U D D L E F I N D L A Y
> > New Zealand Lawyers
> > PricewaterhouseCoopers Tower, 188 Quay Street, PO Box 1433, Auckland
> > 1140
> > Tel +64 9 358 2555 | Direct +64 9 357 9385 | Mobile +64 21 624 356 | Fax
> > +64 9 363 0685
> > Email philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay | www.buddlefindlay.com
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > This message and any attachments may contain information that is
> > confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you have received this
> > message in error, please notify the sender immediately.
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://nicegear.co.nz
> > New Zealand's Open Source Hardware Supplier
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mythtvnz mailing list
> > mythtvnz [at] lists
> > http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> > Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>


james6.0 at gmail

Mar 16, 2010, 12:41 PM

Post #7 of 26 (3539 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

Brendan Dacre wrote:
> James,
>
> Whether or not the specific contents of the epg are copyrightable, I
> suspect any particular publication of them is. So while the novels of
> Jane Austen are out of copyright, I don't think you can just photocopy
> any published version of them...
>
> Brendan
Yes, but we're substantially transforming the publication format here
(converting to XMLTV format). It's not as if we're photocopying the TV
guide.

>
> On 17 March 2010 07:41, James Gray <james6.0 [at] gmail
> <mailto:james6.0 [at] gmail>> wrote:
>
> Somebody needs to take this through court, IANAL but an EPG is a
> collection of facts, which can't be copyrighted in itself.
>
> I remember the first guy who got a takedown notice (years ago, I can't
> remember who is was) got offers for donations to a legal fund, but he
> wanted no truck with it...
>
> It's most frustrating that it always ends up this way
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Hadley Rich <hads [at] nice
> <mailto:hads [at] nice>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > As you are possibly aware I was hosting the guide data at
> > epg.pvr.geek.nz <http://epg.pvr.geek.nz>
> >
> > On Friday I received the below email and unfortunately have had to
> > remove the data from our webserver.
> >
> > Luckily, as has been discussed in other threads, there are
> alternatives.
> > One of the alternatives is no longer watching Sky :)
> >
> > hads
> >
> > -------- Forwarded Message --------
> > From: Philip Wood <philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay
> <mailto:philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay>>
> > To: info [at] nice <mailto:info [at] nice> <info [at] nice
> <mailto:info [at] nice>>
> > Subject: Sky Television: Infringement of rights
> > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:14:00 +1300
> >
> > Please see the attached letter.
> >
> > Yours sincerely
> >
> > Philip Wood
> >
> > Philip Wood
> > Partner
> > B U D D L E F I N D L A Y
> > New Zealand Lawyers
> > PricewaterhouseCoopers Tower, 188 Quay Street, PO Box 1433, Auckland
> > 1140
> > Tel +64 9 358 2555 | Direct +64 9 357 9385 | Mobile +64 21 624
> 356 | Fax
> > +64 9 363 0685
> > Email philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay
> <mailto:philip.wood [at] buddlefindlay> | www.buddlefindlay.com
> <http://www.buddlefindlay.com>
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > This message and any attachments may contain information that is
> > confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you have
> received this
> > message in error, please notify the sender immediately.
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://nicegear.co.nz
> > New Zealand's Open Source Hardware Supplier
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mythtvnz mailing list
> > mythtvnz [at] lists <mailto:mythtvnz [at] lists>
> > http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> > Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists <mailto:mythtvnz [at] lists>
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>


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alick.wilson at braithwaite

Mar 16, 2010, 1:48 PM

Post #8 of 26 (3541 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

I think there is still a question as to the validity of Sky's claim of
breach of copyright. However, sending a lawyers' cease and desist can be
effective leaving the validity of claimed breach unresolved.

The Nine Network vs IceTV Australian case is interesting.

A commentary is here
http://www.nsw.gadens.com.au/clientaccess/newsletters/Updates (text below)

The court judgement is here
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/high_ct/2009/14.html

Alick Wilson

----------------------------------------------------

Nine loses trademark infringement case to IceTV

by Danielle Slimnicanovski

After waging a three year battle which ended up in the High Court of
Australia, Nine has been left out in the cold in relation to what it thought
was its intellectual property.

Nine lost its case against IceTV, claiming IceTV took the time and title
information in Nine's weekly programming schedules and improperly used it in
its subscription-based electronic programme guide, IceGuide. With this
decision the High Court has limited copyright protection afforded to
compilers and publishers of factual compilations. Copyright, the Court
said, protects the form or expression of factual information and not the
factual information itself. It's the quality and not the quantity that
matters.

Ice, Ice baby . IceTV is back with a brand new invention

IceGuide, when downloaded, displays details of television shows scheduled to
be broadcast by free-to-air television stations for a one week period. When
used with a digital video recorder, the IceGuide allows viewers to record
television shows and skip through, or fast-forward, the television
commercials.

Nine broadcasts television shows for our viewing pleasure. To help us know
when our favourite shows are on TV, Nine compiles a weekly schedule of the
shows it will broadcast. Nine's weekly schedule contains details of the
time and title of the shows to be broadcast.

Nine's weekly schedule is then provided to Aggregators. The Aggregators
compile an Aggregated Guide which also includes the weekly schedule of all
the free-to-air television networks. The Aggregated Guides are then
distributed to media, such as newspapers, so that viewers can be sure they
get home in time to watch their favourite show - Underbelly!

In preparing the IceGuide, IceTV's uses information they have compiled from
the previous week's IceGuide as well as information in the Aggregated
Guides. Where there is a discrepancy as to the time and title information
of a television show, the IceGuide is changed to match the Aggregated
Guides.

If there is a problem, I'll solve it

In 2006, Nine sued IceTV for breach of copyright. Nine argued that because
they compiled the weekly schedules, they owned them and had copyright in
them. Initially, Nine lost, but then won on appeal to the Full Federal
Court. IceTV then appealed to the High Court.

The High Court decided that the taking of the time and title information
from Nine's weekly schedule did not breach Nine's copyright.

In order for IceTV to have breached Nine's copyright in the weekly
schedules, Nine would have to show that IceTV had taken a 'substantial' part
of the weekly schedule and used it in the IceGuide. This idea of
'substantiality' depends upon the quality and not quantity of the part of
the weekly schedule that was taken by IceTV.

In assessing the quality of the weekly schedules, the Court looked to the
degree of originality or creativity that went into creating them.
Originality, in this case, the Court held, could only be measured against
the 'skill and labour' expended by Nine's employees in compiling the weekly
schedules.

The Court said that while the form of Nine's weekly schedules was original,
the information contained in them was not. As IceTV had not reproduced the
form of the weekly schedules, only the facts, IceTV was held not to have
infringed Nine's copyright.

Implications

For Ice TV, the decision means that it can continue to provide the IceGuide
to its subscribers without permission from Nine.

For viewers and subscribers, it means the IceGuide can be used to check when
favourite shows are playing, record them and even fast-forward (well, let's
be honest, skip) the pesky ads.

And for those who compile and publish compilations of factual material, the
Court's decision means compilers and publishers of factual compilations may
be more at risk of the compilation being used without their permission.
Courts will, of course, look at each claim of infringement of copyright on a
case-by-case basis, but this case shows that compilers and publishers will
need to show a high degree of skill and labour in the preparation of factual
compilation in order to be afforded copyright protection.



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simon at simongreen

Mar 16, 2010, 1:58 PM

Post #9 of 26 (3536 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On 17 March 2010 04:41, James Gray <james6.0 [at] gmail> wrote:

> Somebody needs to take this through court, IANAL but an EPG is a
> collection of facts, which can't be copyrighted in itself.
>
> I remember the first guy who got a takedown notice (years ago, I can't
> remember who is was) got offers for donations to a legal fund, but he
> wanted no truck with it...
>
> It's most frustrating that it always ends up this way
>

In Australia, Nine (the tv network) took IceTV (a for profit company that
provides EPG listings to court). Ice TV lost the first round, but won in the
high court.
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/tech/58E69A940B505EACCC25733200726597?Opendocument&HighLight=2,ice,tv
However,
NZ and Australia copyright laws are very different, as pointed out by the
Sensis decision over here (even the phone book can be reproduced here)
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/newmedia/court-shock-right-to-copy-directories-upheld


stevehodge at gmail

Mar 16, 2010, 5:14 PM

Post #10 of 26 (3523 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 7:41 AM, James Gray <james6.0 [at] gmail> wrote:

> Somebody needs to take this through court, IANAL but an EPG is a
> collection of facts, which can't be copyrighted in itself.
>

Some of the EPG information is factual: date, time, content advisories,
episode title etc. But stuff like the program descriptions is not. Copying
those is probably infringement (note: IANAL either).

Cheers,
Steve


criggie at criggie

Mar 16, 2010, 5:25 PM

Post #11 of 26 (3523 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

Steve Hodge wrote, On 17/03/10 13:15:
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 7:41 AM, James Gray <james6.0 [at] gmail
> <mailto:james6.0 [at] gmail>> wrote:
>
> Somebody needs to take this through court, IANAL but an EPG is a
> collection of facts, which can't be copyrighted in itself.
>
>
> Some of the EPG information is factual: date, time, content
> advisories, episode title etc. But stuff like the program descriptions
> is not. Copying those is probably infringement (note: IANAL either).

I'd guess that Sky pays a fee to the copyright holder via the
distributor chain for access to the program/season, and part of that
will cover "supply and permission to use the descriptions etc"

So Sky got sucked into paying for that info themselves.

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stevehodge at gmail

Mar 16, 2010, 6:03 PM

Post #12 of 26 (3520 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:25 PM, <criggie [at] criggie> wrote:

> I'd guess that Sky pays a fee to the copyright holder via the
> distributor chain for access to the program/season, and part of that
> will cover "supply and permission to use the descriptions etc"
>
> So Sky got sucked into paying for that info themselves.
>

Not only that, it's also a revenue stream for them since they sell SkyWatch.
Hardly surprising that they'd want to protect that revenue.

It does seem backward to me though as the EPG/SkyWatch is simply an enabler
for their core business which is getting people to watch TV. The harder you
make it for someone to find out about programs and scheduling the less TV
they will watch and the less likely they are to continue to subscribe. It's
similar to the movie studios that try to make it difficult for people to
download movie trailers. WTH would you want to make it difficult for people
to watch an advertisement for your stuff?

Cheers,
Steve


ross.jemima at gmail

Mar 16, 2010, 11:25 PM

Post #13 of 26 (3478 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

Steve Hodge wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:25 PM, <criggie [at] criggie
> <mailto:criggie [at] criggie>> wrote:
>
> I'd guess that Sky pays a fee to the copyright holder via the
> distributor chain for access to the program/season, and part of that
> will cover "supply and permission to use the descriptions etc"
>
> So Sky got sucked into paying for that info themselves.
>
>
> Not only that, it's also a revenue stream for them since they sell
> SkyWatch. Hardly surprising that they'd want to protect that revenue.
>
> It does seem backward to me though as the EPG/SkyWatch is simply an
> enabler for their core business which is getting people to watch TV. The
> harder you make it for someone to find out about programs and scheduling
> the less TV they will watch and the less likely they are to continue to
> subscribe. It's similar to the movie studios that try to make it
> difficult for people to download movie trailers. WTH would you want to
> make it difficult for people to watch an advertisement for your stuff?
>
> Cheers,
> Steve

I wonder what it would cost to buy the rights to the EPG data?.. ie
what if we were to play their game?

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james6.0 at gmail

Mar 16, 2010, 11:36 PM

Post #14 of 26 (3475 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

> I wonder what it would cost to buy the rights to the EPG data?..  ie
> what if we were to play their game?
>
Looked into this a while back... I think it was something like $3000
per publication. Or something. Not cheap at all

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james6.0 at gmail

Mar 16, 2010, 11:44 PM

Post #15 of 26 (3489 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

>
> I wonder what it would cost to buy the rights to the EPG data?..  ie
> what if we were to play their game?
>

http://www.tv3.co.nz/ContactUs/FAQs/tabid/62/articleID/71/Default.aspx

$2000 per month... and I think that's just for TV3. I posed a
tentative question to this list a while back to see who would be
likely to pay, say, $15-$20 per month to access a licensed and quality
checked XMLTV feed, and mostly got the "well we can get this for free"
response

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criggie at criggie

Mar 17, 2010, 12:02 AM

Post #16 of 26 (3483 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

James Gray wrote:
>> I wonder what it would cost to buy the rights to the EPG data?.. ie
>> what if we were to play their game?
>>
>
> http://www.tv3.co.nz/ContactUs/FAQs/tabid/62/articleID/71/Default.aspx
>
> $2000 per month... and I think that's just for TV3. I posed a
> tentative question to this list a while back to see who would be
> likely to pay, say, $15-$20 per month to access a licensed and quality
> checked XMLTV feed, and mostly got the "well we can get this for free"
> response

So that would be 100 people paying $20 each month. Plus the cost of
someone's time to check and correct their usual errors.

Not financially viable in my opinion.


--
Criggie

http://criggie.dyndns.org/

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hads at nice

Mar 17, 2010, 12:06 AM

Post #17 of 26 (3484 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On Wed, 2010-03-17 at 19:44 +1300, James Gray wrote:
> I posed a
> tentative question to this list a while back to see who would be
> likely to pay, say, $15-$20 per month to access a licensed and quality
> checked XMLTV feed, and mostly got the "well we can get this for free"
> response

If it's "quality checked" as much as the data published via Sky or
Freeview then that doesn't really say much.

hads

--
http://nicegear.co.nz
New Zealand's Open Source Hardware Supplier


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stevehodge at gmail

Mar 17, 2010, 12:48 AM

Post #18 of 26 (3488 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 7:44 PM, James Gray <james6.0 [at] gmail> wrote:

> > I wonder what it would cost to buy the rights to the EPG data?.. ie
> > what if we were to play their game?
> >
>
> http://www.tv3.co.nz/ContactUs/FAQs/tabid/62/articleID/71/Default.aspx
>
> $2000 per month... and I think that's just for TV3. I posed a
> tentative question to this list a while back to see who would be
> likely to pay, say, $15-$20 per month to access a licensed and quality
> checked XMLTV feed, and mostly got the "well we can get this for free"
> response
>

Given that $15-$20 per month will pay for a DVB-S card in pretty short order
I don't think it'll fly at the moment even if Sky can keep the xmltv data
off the net. Personally I'd be willing to pay about $5 (maybe $10) per month
if the data had reliable season and episode numbers attached. Don't think
any of the local broadcasters have that data themselves unfortunately.

Cheers,
Steve


james6.0 at gmail

Mar 17, 2010, 1:04 AM

Post #19 of 26 (3486 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

>
> Given that $15-$20 per month will pay for a DVB-S card in pretty short order
> I don't think it'll fly at the moment even if Sky can keep the xmltv data
> off the net. Personally I'd be willing to pay about $5 (maybe $10) per month
> if the data had reliable season and episode numbers attached. Don't think
> any of the local broadcasters have that data themselves unfortunately.
>

Maybe if a few companies successfully marketed an open source PVR, and
the EIT/MHEG data proved itself too unreliable... 4000 subscribers x
$5 could well pay the costs for that

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steven at openmedia

Mar 17, 2010, 12:54 PM

Post #20 of 26 (3427 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On 17/03/2010, at 7:25 PM, Ross and Jemima Knudsen wrote:

> Steve Hodge wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:25 PM, <criggie [at] criggie
>> <mailto:criggie [at] criggie>> wrote:
>>
>> I'd guess that Sky pays a fee to the copyright holder via the
>> distributor chain for access to the program/season, and part of that
>> will cover "supply and permission to use the descriptions etc"
>>
>> So Sky got sucked into paying for that info themselves.
>>
>>
>> Not only that, it's also a revenue stream for them since they sell
>> SkyWatch. Hardly surprising that they'd want to protect that revenue.
>>
>> It does seem backward to me though as the EPG/SkyWatch is simply an
>> enabler for their core business which is getting people to watch TV. The
>> harder you make it for someone to find out about programs and scheduling
>> the less TV they will watch and the less likely they are to continue to
>> subscribe. It's similar to the movie studios that try to make it
>> difficult for people to download movie trailers. WTH would you want to
>> make it difficult for people to watch an advertisement for your stuff?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steve
>
> I wonder what it would cost to buy the rights to the EPG data?.. ie
> what if we were to play their game?
>

Things might have changed but when I tried 3 years ago they wouldn't sell it if you were going to publish it electronically.


Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited
email - steven [at] openmedia
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz


ross.jemima at gmail

Mar 17, 2010, 1:01 PM

Post #21 of 26 (3432 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On 18 March 2010 08:54, Steven Ellis <steven [at] openmedia> wrote:
> Things might have changed but when I tried 3 years ago they wouldn't sell it
> if you were going to publish it electronically.

Well that alone pretty much blows that idea out of the water. For the
cost of even $10 a month I would expect a lot more (fanart, accurate
season and episode data etc). And as Steve noted, it would be cheaper
to buy a DVB-S card.

By the way how secure is this mailing list ie in discussion of this
sort of thing?

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criggie at criggie

Mar 17, 2010, 1:23 PM

Post #22 of 26 (3431 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

Someone wrote, On 18/03/10 09:02:
> By the way how secure is this mailing list ie in discussion of this
> sort of thing?
>
Its a public mailing list - anyone can join. And its publicly archived
so anyone can search it at anytime in the future.

If that scares you, remember that talk is not bad in itself - actions
are another matter.

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lists at whitehouse

Mar 17, 2010, 10:55 PM

Post #23 of 26 (3386 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

Steve Hodge wrote:

> It does seem backward to me though as the EPG/SkyWatch is simply an
> enabler for their core business which is getting people to watch TV.

The economics change dramatically when you consider that Sky are now in
the PVR market. MySky provides great lock-in, so it becomes a valuable
asset. The more that Sky can prevent anyone else giving decent access to
Sky programs on a PVR, the more people with Sky will get a MySky and
will stay on Sky (among other reasons, to avoid losing their MySky).

It is a shame that Sky has taken this approach. If anybody who received
a letter would like to talk through the general concepts, please contact
me off-list.

It doesn't personally affect me, as I only use Freeview channels
(ironically, I would probably subscribe to Sky if it were more open),
but a similar thing could happen for those (I thought TVNZ took issue
once before).

For that reason, I would be very keen to see MHEG integrated into MythTV
in the same way as the "Use EIT data" option -- at the moment with a
DVB-T card, it is very difficult to get EPG data without using the
internet sources.

Regards,

Aaron

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tortise at paradise

Mar 18, 2010, 1:28 AM

Post #24 of 26 (3384 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Whitehouse" <lists [at] whitehouse>
To: "MythTV in NZ" <mythtvnz [at] lists>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [mythtvnz] [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights]


> Steve Hodge wrote:
>
>> It does seem backward to me though as the EPG/SkyWatch is simply an
>> enabler for their core business which is getting people to watch TV.
>
> The economics change dramatically when you consider that Sky are now in
> the PVR market. MySky provides great lock-in, so it becomes a valuable
> asset. The more that Sky can prevent anyone else giving decent access to
> Sky programs on a PVR, the more people with Sky will get a MySky and
> will stay on Sky (among other reasons, to avoid losing their MySky).
>

You are (somewhat independently) alluding to what I've been wondering, that is whether the commerce commission might be persuaded to
investigate whether this action is with adequate basis and / or might constitute an anti competitive action?

The Fair Trading Act may well be relevant - but not as might have been suggested.

I also understand one of the commerce commission's investigation hurdle criteria is the volume of complaints received.

Before anyone gets too pessimistic that such an approach is unlikely to bear fruit I am reliably informed that a prominent
technology company was recently issued with a compliance advice notice regarding the information they need to give consumers - all
to do with a topic dear to our hearts - HD TV.

The commerce commission might well be worth communicating with.


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nick.rout at gmail

Mar 18, 2010, 12:03 PM

Post #25 of 26 (3333 views)
Permalink
Re: [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights] [In reply to]

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Tortise <tortise [at] paradise> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Whitehouse" <lists [at] whitehouse>
> To: "MythTV in NZ" <mythtvnz [at] lists>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [mythtvnz] [Fwd: Sky Television: Infringement of rights]
>
>
>> Steve Hodge wrote:
>>
>>> It does seem backward to me though as the EPG/SkyWatch is simply an
>>> enabler for their core business which is getting people to watch TV.
>>
>> The economics change dramatically when you consider that Sky are now in
>> the PVR market. MySky provides great lock-in, so it becomes a valuable
>> asset. The more that Sky can prevent anyone else giving decent access to
>> Sky programs on a PVR, the more people with Sky will get a MySky and
>> will stay on Sky (among other reasons, to avoid losing their MySky).
>>
>
> You are (somewhat independently) alluding to what I've been wondering, that is whether the commerce commission might be persuaded to
> investigate whether this action is with adequate basis and / or might constitute an anti competitive action?
>
> The Fair Trading Act may well be relevant - but not as might have been suggested.

In what way?

>
> I also understand one of the commerce commission's investigation hurdle criteria is the volume of complaints received.
>
> Before anyone gets too pessimistic that such an approach is unlikely to bear fruit I am reliably informed that a prominent
> technology company was recently issued with a compliance advice notice regarding the information they need to give consumers - all
> to do with a topic dear to our hearts - HD TV.
>
> The commerce commission might well be worth communicating with.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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