Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Mythtvnz

MHEG fix for freeview HD

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steven at openmedia

May 26, 2009, 2:37 PM

Post #1 of 25 (5314 views)
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MHEG fix for freeview HD

Since the addition of the PVR functionality to the MHEG-5 EPG the
application has been causing the mythfrontend to crash. Well I finally
put in a bug report to David Matthews and it was a simple single line
fix.

See http://cvs.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/6570 for the details.

Jean-Yves, any chance you might add this patch to your future builds?

Still not perfect with VDPAU enabled as the video playback window
doesn't shrink to fit the smaller window in the MHEG-5 frame, but at-
least it doesn't crash anymore.

Steve

Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited
email - steven [at] openmedia
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz

Aaron.Drysdale at provencocadmus

May 26, 2009, 2:47 PM

Post #2 of 25 (5207 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

>Since the addition of the PVR functionality to the MHEG-5 EPG the
application has been causing the mythfrontend to crash. Well I >finally
put in a bug report to David Matthews and it was a simple single line
fix.

Could you explain what MHEG-5 provides me from a users perspective? I
tried googling it after reading your last mythtvnz post, but couldn't
really figure out what it does. I get the impression it is something to
do with interactive tv, or enabling applications or settings to be
downloaded directly to the STB. But???

Many thanks for any info you can provide.

Regards

Aaron

steven at openmedia

May 26, 2009, 3:11 PM

Post #3 of 25 (5200 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On 27/05/2009, at 9:47 AM, Aaron Drysdale wrote:

> >Since the addition of the PVR functionality to the MHEG-5 EPG the
> application has been causing the mythfrontend to crash. Well I
> >finally put in a bug report to David Matthews and it was a simple
> single line fix.
>
> Could you explain what MHEG-5 provides me from a users perspective?
> I tried googling it after reading your last mythtvnz post, but
> couldn’t really figure out what it does. I get the impression it is
> something to do with interactive tv, or enabling applications or
> settings to be downloaded directly to the STB. But???
>
>

MHEG-5 provides the official freeview EPG. On the PVR enabled STBs it
can also provide PVR features via the same interface.

At present only the EPG features are available under MythTV and you
need to press F12 to bring up the application.

Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited
email - steven [at] openmedia
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz

steven at openmedia

May 26, 2009, 3:12 PM

Post #4 of 25 (5197 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On 27/05/2009, at 9:47 AM, Aaron Drysdale wrote:

> >Since the addition of the PVR functionality to the MHEG-5 EPG the
> application has been causing the mythfrontend to crash. Well I
> >finally put in a bug report to David Matthews and it was a simple
> single line fix.
>
> Could you explain what MHEG-5 provides me from a users perspective?
> I tried googling it after reading your last mythtvnz post, but
> couldn’t really figure out what it does. I get the impression it is
> something to do with interactive tv, or enabling applications or
> settings to be downloaded directly to the STB. But???
>
> Many thanks for any info you can provide.
>
>

The bottom of this page has examples of the EPG screens

http://www.mypvr.co.nz/mypvr/myPVR%20FreeView.html

Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited
email - steven [at] openmedia
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz

Aaron.Drysdale at provencocadmus

May 26, 2009, 3:20 PM

Post #5 of 25 (5207 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

Looks cool. Any reason why I would want to use the Freeview MHEG-5 EPG,
over the Mythtv EPG? I assume that the information present is the same
data available over EIT?

Aaron

From: mythtvnz-bounces [at] lists
[mailto:mythtvnz-bounces [at] lists] On Behalf Of Steven Ellis
Sent: Wednesday, 27 May 2009 10:12
To: MythTV in NZ
Subject: Re: [mythtvnz] MHEG fix for freeview HD

On 27/05/2009, at 9:47 AM, Aaron Drysdale wrote:

>Since the addition of the PVR functionality to the MHEG-5 EPG the
application has been causing the mythfrontend to crash. Well I >finally
put in a bug report to David Matthews and it was a simple single line
fix.

Could you explain what MHEG-5 provides me from a users perspective? I
tried googling it after reading your last mythtvnz post, but couldn't
really figure out what it does. I get the impression it is something to
do with interactive tv, or enabling applications or settings to be
downloaded directly to the STB. But???

Many thanks for any info you can provide.

The bottom of this page has examples of the EPG screens

http://www.mypvr.co.nz/mypvr/myPVR%20FreeView.html

Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited
email - steven [at] openmedia
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz <http://www.openmedia.co.nz/>

steven at openmedia

May 26, 2009, 4:33 PM

Post #6 of 25 (5207 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Wed, May 27, 2009 10:20 am, Aaron Drysdale wrote:
> Looks cool. Any reason why I would want to use the Freeview MHEG-5 EPG,
> over the Mythtv EPG? I assume that the information present is the same
> data available over EIT?
>

On freeview|HD the EIT information only provides now/next.

Plus you can't program via the MHEG-5 EPG (yet)

--------------------------------------------
Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited - The Home of myPVR
email - steven [at] openmedia
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz

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barryc at bcsystems

Jun 4, 2009, 4:32 PM

Post #7 of 25 (5068 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

If I understand all this correctly and to summarise, on Freeview|HD there is
not a full EPG data stream to populate our "week ahead" of programme guide
in Mythtv? On Satellite Freeview, however, there is full information. I
currently have only the satellite dish going and have viewed the MHEG data
on that. (though not at the moment apparently)
If I set up a machine with mixed Satellite and HD sources, can I use the EIT
off the dish for all program guide data?

Regards
Barry
And a PS, one of my previous issues with the dvd came down to the wrong
device set (/dev/dvd instead of /dev/dvd1)

2009/5/27 Steven Ellis <steven [at] openmedia>

>
> On Wed, May 27, 2009 10:20 am, Aaron Drysdale wrote:
> > Looks cool. Any reason why I would want to use the Freeview MHEG-5 EPG,
> > over the Mythtv EPG? I assume that the information present is the same
> > data available over EIT?
> >
>
> On freeview|HD the EIT information only provides now/next.
>
> Plus you can't program via the MHEG-5 EPG (yet)
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Steven Ellis - Technical Director
> OpenMedia Limited - The Home of myPVR
> email - steven [at] openmedia
> website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>

--

Barry Clearwater
Managing director
BC Systems Consultancy Limited
___________________________
18 Shaw Street
Mosgiel
Dunedin 9024
Phone: +64 3 489 3915
Mobile: +64 27 221 9338
Email: barryc [at] bcsystems

Aaron.Drysdale at provencocadmus

Jun 4, 2009, 4:50 PM

Post #8 of 25 (5082 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

>If I set up a machine with mixed Satellite and HD sources, can I use
the EIT off the dish for all program guide data?

I would be interested in this as well. I couldn't figure out a way to do
this, I could populate the guide data for the dvb-s card, but when I
switched to the dvb-t tuner the guide data was empty. I ended up using
xmltvnz for both sources to ensure I had consistent data across both
tuners.

Regards

Aaron

killerkiwi2005 at gmail

Jun 4, 2009, 5:08 PM

Post #9 of 25 (5079 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

Would also be useful for getting prime listings off the dish for analouge...

2009/6/5 Aaron Drysdale <Aaron.Drysdale [at] provencocadmus>

> >If I set up a machine with mixed Satellite and HD sources, can I use the
> EIT off the dish for all program guide data?
>
>
>
> I would be interested in this as well. I couldn’t figure out a way to do
> this, I could populate the guide data for the dvb-s card, but when I
> switched to the dvb-t tuner the guide data was empty. I ended up using
> xmltvnz for both sources to ensure I had consistent data across both tuners.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Aaron
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
> mythtvnz [at] lists
> http://lists.ourshack.com/mailman/listinfo/mythtvnz
> Archives http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/mythtvnz/
>
>

--
"Weekends don't count unless you spend them doing something completely
pointless. " - Calven

g8ecj at gilks

Jun 4, 2009, 6:45 PM

Post #10 of 25 (5070 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

[re-ordered top posting]

>> On Wed, May 27, 2009 10:20 am, Aaron Drysdale wrote:
>> > Looks cool. Any reason why I would want to use the Freeview MHEG-5
>> EPG,
>> > over the Mythtv EPG? I assume that the information present is the
>> same
>> > data available over EIT?
>> >
>>
>> On freeview|HD the EIT information only provides now/next.
>>
>> Plus you can't program via the MHEG-5 EPG (yet)
>>
> If I understand all this correctly and to summarise, on Freeview|HD there
> is
> not a full EPG data stream to populate our "week ahead" of programme guide
> in Mythtv? On Satellite Freeview, however, there is full information. I
> currently have only the satellite dish going and have viewed the MHEG data
> on that. (though not at the moment apparently)
> If I set up a machine with mixed Satellite and HD sources, can I use the
> EIT
> off the dish for all program guide data?
>
> Regards
> Barry

Three sources of on-air data:

EPG - on the Satellite broadcasts - both Sky and Freeview flavours are
available so Prime info is available. Mythtv doesn't process this
directly, epgsnoop (using the dvbsnoop program) and mythfilldatabase (with
the xmltv grabber) massage this into a useful format. There are listing
available on the net that are derived from this data source.

EIT - Specific to the channel being viewed and as I understand it, on both
Satellite and terrestrial but the latter has only now and next programs.

MHEG-5 - interactive information that also happens to have scheduling
information. Designed to be human rather than machine readable and
displayed directly to the user by the frontend at present with no backend
interaction to get the scheduling info from it.

--
Robin Gilks

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nick.rout at gmail

Jun 4, 2009, 7:02 PM

Post #11 of 25 (5069 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Robin Gilks <g8ecj [at] gilks> wrote:
> [re-ordered top posting]
>
>>> On Wed, May 27, 2009 10:20 am, Aaron Drysdale wrote:
>>> > Looks cool. Any reason why I would want to use the Freeview MHEG-5
>>> EPG,
>>> > over the Mythtv EPG? I assume that the information present is the
>>> same
>>> > data available over EIT?
>>> >
>>>
>>> On freeview|HD the EIT information only provides now/next.
>>>
>>> Plus you can't program via the MHEG-5 EPG (yet)
>>>
>> If I understand all this correctly and to summarise, on Freeview|HD there
>> is
>> not a full EPG data stream to populate our "week ahead" of programme guide
>> in Mythtv? On Satellite Freeview, however, there is full information. I
>> currently have only the satellite dish going and have viewed the MHEG data
>> on that. (though not at the moment apparently)
>> If I set up a machine with mixed Satellite and HD sources, can I use the
>> EIT
>> off the dish for all program guide data?
>>
>> Regards
>> Barry
>
> Three sources of on-air data:
>
> EPG - on the Satellite broadcasts - both Sky and Freeview flavours are
> available so Prime info is available. Mythtv doesn't process this
> directly, epgsnoop (using the dvbsnoop program) and mythfilldatabase (with
> the xmltv grabber) massage this into a useful format. There are listing
> available on the net that are derived from this data source.
>
> EIT - Specific to the channel being viewed and as I understand it, on both
> Satellite and terrestrial but the latter has only now and next programs.
>
> MHEG-5 - interactive information that also happens to have scheduling
> information. Designed to be human rather than machine readable and
> displayed directly to the user by the frontend at present with no backend
> interaction to get the scheduling info from it.

I take it that while the MHEG-5 is useful to browse, it can't be used
within myth to schedule in the same way that the EPG can?

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lists at whitehouse

Jan 12, 2010, 12:44 AM

Post #12 of 25 (3918 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

Nick Rout wrote:
> I take it that while the MHEG-5 is useful to browse, it can't be used
> within myth to schedule in the same way that the EPG can?

Sorry for the "necrobump", I'm way behind on my emails.

That is my understanding. I would love to see a "use MHEG data" next to
the "use EIT" checkbox, but it doesn't really provide a lot over the EIT
data that I get over the internet. It would be nice to think I could use
DVB-T MythTV without an internet connection, but I doubt I'll do it any
time soon.

Conceptually, I think it would be better to have the MHEG processor as a
source of EPG data and the F12 view as a alternate view of the EPG --
given that no interactive features work in it anyway.

I'm still really interested to know how some boxes provide series link
and have a feeling that it is in the MHEG information. As I have said
before, this is something that I would love to see in MythTV and would
donate to an effort to add it (if MyPVR is interested in spearheading
it, or something).

Regards,

Aaron

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steven at openmedia

Jan 12, 2010, 8:44 PM

Post #13 of 25 (3899 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On 12/01/2010, at 9:44 PM, Aaron Whitehouse wrote:

> Nick Rout wrote:
>> I take it that while the MHEG-5 is useful to browse, it can't be used
>> within myth to schedule in the same way that the EPG can?
>
> Sorry for the "necrobump", I'm way behind on my emails.
>
> That is my understanding. I would love to see a "use MHEG data" next to
> the "use EIT" checkbox, but it doesn't really provide a lot over the EIT
> data that I get over the internet. It would be nice to think I could use
> DVB-T MythTV without an internet connection, but I doubt I'll do it any
> time soon.
>
> Conceptually, I think it would be better to have the MHEG processor as a
> source of EPG data and the F12 view as a alternate view of the EPG --
> given that no interactive features work in it anyway.
>
> I'm still really interested to know how some boxes provide series link
> and have a feeling that it is in the MHEG information. As I have said
> before, this is something that I would love to see in MythTV and would
> donate to an effort to add it (if MyPVR is interested in spearheading
> it, or something).
>

I have the details of how series link works on myfreeview|HD and it would require a number of extensions to the existing MHEG stack.

Aaron - Any chance you will be at LCA next week?

Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited
email - steven [at] openmedia
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz

lists at whitehouse

Jan 13, 2010, 12:22 AM

Post #14 of 25 (3891 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

Steven Ellis wrote:

> I have the details of how series link works on myfreeview|HD and it
> would require a number of extensions to the existing MHEG stack.

Interesting. Presumably people would rather use series link through the
existing scheduling interfaces, rather than the F12 interface, so
something may need to change there anyway. I guess that means that it is
different to the UK BBC's "series link", which (apparently) is already
in MythTV.

Are you able to say whether the feature is being worked on by anyone?
Any chance that what you know may make it onto the mythtv.co.nz wiki?

> Aaron - Any chance you will be at LCA next week?

Unfortunately not. It is my first week back at work after three weeks
off (firm shutdown), so I'm very light on leave. I also don't work in
computers, so I couldn't convince anyone that I needed to go for work!

Regards,

Aaron

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stevehodge at gmail

Jan 13, 2010, 2:57 AM

Post #15 of 25 (3886 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Aaron Whitehouse
<lists [at] whitehouse>wrote:

> Steven Ellis wrote:
>
> > I have the details of how series link works on myfreeview|HD and it
> > would require a number of extensions to the existing MHEG stack.
>
> Interesting. Presumably people would rather use series link through the
> existing scheduling interfaces, rather than the F12 interface, so
> something may need to change there anyway. I guess that means that it is
> different to the UK BBC's "series link", which (apparently) is already
> in MythTV.
>

I doubt there will ever be integration between the MHEG proram guide and
MythTV scheduling (i.e. being able to schedule things from the MHEG program
guide). As you say, people would rather use the Myth interface so I think
we're all just talking about getting whatever MHEG-only data there is into
Myth. I'm not exactly sure what "series link" means in terms of data
(hopefully Steven Eillis will clarify/correct me where required), but I
guess it just means an id number against each program that represents the
"series". It could give us some certainty in the face of title screwups, but
then if we don't trust Freeview to get the title right in the data then I'm
not sure we can trust them to get the series id right either. How it's used
could affect it's value as well, for example is it only for a particular
season or for all seasons of a particular show? If it's specific to a season
then it's pretty useless IMHO. Similarly, will they be careful to
distinguish between different programs with the same/similar names (e.g.
Life on Mars UK vs US, Who want's to be a Millionaire?). Again, if they
don't then it's no better than the titles we have now.

Cheers,
Steve

nick.rout at gmail

Jan 13, 2010, 11:59 AM

Post #16 of 25 (3871 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Steve Hodge <stevehodge [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Aaron Whitehouse <lists [at] whitehouse>
> wrote:
>>
>> Steven Ellis wrote:
>>
>> > I have the details of how series link works on myfreeview|HD and it
>> > would require a number of extensions to the existing MHEG stack.
>>
>> Interesting. Presumably people would rather use series link through the
>> existing scheduling interfaces, rather than the F12 interface, so
>> something may need to change there anyway. I guess that means that it is
>> different to the UK BBC's "series link", which (apparently) is already
>> in MythTV.
>
> I doubt there will ever be integration between the MHEG proram guide and
> MythTV scheduling (i.e. being able to schedule things from the MHEG program
> guide). As you say, people would rather use the Myth interface so I think
> we're all just talking about getting whatever MHEG-only data there is into
> Myth. I'm not exactly sure what "series link" means in terms of data
> (hopefully Steven Eillis will clarify/correct me where required), but I
> guess it just means an id number against each program that represents the
> "series". It could give us some certainty in the face of title screwups, but
> then if we don't trust Freeview to get the title right in the data then I'm
> not sure we can trust them to get the series id right either. How it's used
> could affect it's value as well, for example is it only for a particular
> season or for all seasons of a particular show? If it's specific to a season
> then it's pretty useless IMHO.

Then again some people only want the current season, not every rerun!

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lists at whitehouse

Jan 13, 2010, 2:14 PM

Post #17 of 25 (3855 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

Nick Rout wrote:
>> It could give us some certainty in the face of title screwups, but
>> then if we don't trust Freeview to get the title right in the data then I'm
>> not sure we can trust them to get the series id right either. How it's used
>> could affect it's value as well, for example is it only for a particular
>> season or for all seasons of a particular show? If it's specific to a season
>> then it's pretty useless IMHO.
>
> Then again some people only want the current season, not every rerun!

Yes, one of my issues with the title search is that it records the
midday showings of old shows.

Series link will have to be reliable, as it is likely to be the only
option that myFreeview boxes have to record more than one showing.
Having used series link a lot on MySky boxes, I found it to be really
good. On MySky boxes, it is the a single series (say the 7-8pm showings
on Wednesday and Friday, but not the old series at midday, and catches
any time slips, such as a "feature-length finale"). In my experience, it
worked better than the combination of all 6(?) options in MythTV in 90%
of cases (which makes sense, as a person at Sky had gone through and set
it as intended). At the beginning, it was only set for prime-time
series, which meant that for others you had to set them to record each week.

More importantly, having one option that works in most cases made for
*much* easier scheduling, as you hit "(R)" in the programme guide to
record one showing and the yellow(?) button to record the series. We've
had MythTV running for nearly two years and I still struggle with which
recording option to use (none work perfectly).

Regards,

Aaron

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ross.jemima at gmail

Jan 13, 2010, 2:30 PM

Post #18 of 25 (3852 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

Myth seems to use more than the title to match whether it should
record a showing or not. Reason being that for a while my system
wouldn't record South Park because it thought it had been recorded
previously. I'm not sure what it uses to determine this.

Also it would be good if you could do partial matches or wildcard
matches as I got caught out with new series have "All New ..."
prepended to the show title. This is helpful because now I see very
few ads nowadays and miss new season series sometimes.

Regards

Ross

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nick.rout at gmail

Jan 13, 2010, 3:08 PM

Post #19 of 25 (3847 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Ross and Jemima Knudsen
<ross.jemima [at] gmail> wrote:
> Myth seems to use more than the title to match whether it should
> record a showing or not. Reason being that for a while my system
> wouldn't record South Park because it thought it had been recorded
> previously. I'm not sure what it uses to determine this.
>
> Also it would be good if you could do partial matches or wildcard
> matches as I got caught out with new series have "All New ..."
> prepended to the show title.

Yes I missed '7 Days 12 months' because I only record '7 days'.
unrelated - tv3's website had a copy which played nicely fullscreen in
firefox, although had to switch to analogue sound.

You can do wildcard searches, but you need to do a custom recording rule.

when most nz tv companies cannot even put the episode title into the
subtitle field in stead of the description field, any sort of lookup
as to there an episode fits into the 'series' is gonna be a failure.

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stevehodge at gmail

Jan 13, 2010, 3:40 PM

Post #20 of 25 (3853 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Steve Hodge <stevehodge [at] gmail>
> wrote:
> How it's used
> > could affect it's value as well, for example is it only for a particular
> > season or for all seasons of a particular show? If it's specific to a
> season
> > then it's pretty useless IMHO.
>
> Then again some people only want the current season, not every rerun!
>

That's a good point, but then it doesn't help you catch the start of the
next season which for me is the bigger problem as I don't really see any
advertising. What we really need is episode and season numbers or at least a
reliable "repeat" flag.

Cheers,
Steve

nick.rout at gmail

Jan 13, 2010, 3:49 PM

Post #21 of 25 (3853 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Steve Hodge <stevehodge [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Steve Hodge <stevehodge [at] gmail>
>> wrote:
>> How it's used
>> > could affect it's value as well, for example is it only for a particular
>> > season or for all seasons of a particular show? If it's specific to a
>> > season
>> > then it's pretty useless IMHO.
>>
>> Then again some people only want the current season, not every rerun!
>
> That's a good point, but then it doesn't help you catch the start of the
> next season which for me is the bigger problem as I don't really see any
> advertising. What we really need is episode and season numbers or at least a
> reliable "repeat" flag.

Whats a repeat for you may not be for someone else, it depends on when
you installed your myth system, what seasons you have on DVD, etc. The
completist may want everything, even old episodes.

Easier to record everything and delete what you don't want than to
record too little.

As for missed season premieres, I feel this is a legitimate use of
bittorrent etc. You talk to friends, they tell you about a fantastic
new programme you missed and you download the first episode, then
record the rest (if you like it of course).

Of course you can get myth to record every premiere - theres a feature
for that, but again it may depend on info we don't have in our
databases.

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stevehodge at gmail

Jan 13, 2010, 5:43 PM

Post #22 of 25 (3847 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Steve Hodge <stevehodge [at] gmail>
> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Steve Hodge <stevehodge [at] gmail>
> >> wrote:
> >> How it's used
> >> > could affect it's value as well, for example is it only for a
> particular
> >> > season or for all seasons of a particular show? If it's specific to a
> >> > season
> >> > then it's pretty useless IMHO.
> >>
> >> Then again some people only want the current season, not every rerun!
> >
> > That's a good point, but then it doesn't help you catch the start of the
> > next season which for me is the bigger problem as I don't really see any
> > advertising. What we really need is episode and season numbers or at
> least a
> > reliable "repeat" flag.
>
> Whats a repeat for you may not be for someone else, it depends on when
> you installed your myth system, what seasons you have on DVD, etc. The
> completist may want everything, even old episodes.
>

That's why I mentioned season and episode numbers. But I don't think we'll
get them any time soon. A "repeat" flag would be better than nothing, and
it's not like you'd be forced to use it. Of course the networks would only
consider their own showings and may be tempted to cheat occasionally as well
so it may not be all that useful. Still I'm always keen on more data.

> Easier to record everything and delete what you don't want than to
> record too little.
>

That's what I do. I imagine it could become annoying if there is a lot of
manual housecleaning required, but it's workable for me.

> As for missed season premieres, I feel this is a legitimate use of
> bittorrent etc. You talk to friends, they tell you about a fantastic
> new programme you missed and you download the first episode, then
> record the rest (if you like it of course).
>

Yes.

Of course you can get myth to record every premiere - theres a feature
> for that, but again it may depend on info we don't have in our
> databases.
>

I was thinking more in terms of new seasons of stuff you're already
recording. Currently this works fine unless someone changes the show's
title. But if your recording rule is based on series id (with or without the
title) and the series id changes for the new season then you are going to
miss it. I suspect this isn't as big a problem for people with MySky or
Freeview decoders because they are still watching the advertising.

Cheers,
Steve

lists at whitehouse

Jan 13, 2010, 6:23 PM

Post #23 of 25 (3827 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

Steve Hodge wrote:
> That's why I mentioned season and episode numbers. But I don't think
> we'll get them any time soon.

Yes. It is a shame that we don't have better detail, as that would make
the "no duplicates" setting work better. The most likely way that I can
see this working is if the EPG ends up using information from something
like tvdb. I can see someone like SchedulesDirect (or maybe a wiki-based
interface to epg.geek, or something) linking programs to episodes in
tvdb or imdb etc. While I can't see anyone sitting down and entering in
the season/episode numbers, subtitles and descriptions reliably enough
for this, I see it as more likely that someone would find the relevant
episode in the database and add a link, populating everything
automatically. It sounds far-fetched, but isn't far off how the likes of
MusicBrainz/SoundJuicer have resulted in my music collection being
perfectly tagged. With perfect data, you are right that recording the
next series of something that you recorded would be sensible (and a lot
easier).

> As for missed season premieres, I feel this is a legitimate use of
> bittorrent etc. You talk to friends, they tell you about a fantastic
> new programme you missed and you download the first episode, then
> record the rest (if you like it of course).
> Yes.

Haha... I'm guessing some lawyers/MPIAA types would disagree with that view.

> Of course you can get myth to record every premiere - theres a feature
> for that, but again it may depend on info we don't have in our
> databases.

Again, it would probably require more information than we have in our
EPG currently.

> If your recording rule is based on series id (with or without
> the title) and the series id changes for the new season then you are
> going to miss it.

True, I guess, and I have grown very fond of the fact that MythTV
catches new series, but it isn't something that bothered me on MySky. It
is also worth mentioning that this only happens now on two of the many
recording settings in MythTV -- those based on title matching at any
time on that channel/any time. Series link would be at least preferable
to "this time slot every day/week" in nearly all cases.

> I suspect this isn't as big a problem for people with
> MySky or Freeview decoders because they are still watching the advertising.

Yes and no. I watch about the same number of ads on both (I FFwd through
ads on MySky as well). The only difference is that I tend to jump
forward on MythTV (right cursor) instead of FFwding, so on MySky I stop
if I see a trailer for something I am interested in.

Again, if it is the sole method that all MyFreeview boxes will be using,
it would be excellent if it made its way into MythTV. From a user's
point of view, I want to record a showing or record a series. The fact
that I can often achieve the result of recording a full series with some
clever rules and searches doesn't make it less useful to have a single
option to do that. It also adds some interesting ideas like separating
out the rerun series from the primetime series based on that ID (while I
may want both, I would usually want season 2 and 5 separate). With the
one exception of title-matching catching a new series (which I agree it
would be great if MythTV could implement), I would be more than happy
to replace all the current options with "Record", "Record series" and
the existing manual/custom records that are in other parts of the menu
(so you could still create a rule to record every episode of the
Simpsons if you didn't want to series link each season). If we had a
perfect EPG, I could be convinced to split the second option into
"Record this series" and "Record every series of this".

Title-based searches fail because the title can be wrong or there can be
multiple series with the same title (which you may or may not want).
Time-based searches fail because the time can change. One could merge
concepts to calculate likelihoods from the time and title (e.g., a
similar title starting half an hour late and ending 1 hour late should
likely be recorded), but mostly this is to get around the fact that a
series is not marked as such.

Usability and simplicity are important features too -- in my opinion
more so than catering for the corner cases in the main recording screen.

Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Aaron

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hads at nice

Jan 13, 2010, 6:42 PM

Post #24 of 25 (3828 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:23:40 Aaron Whitehouse wrote:
> Yes. It is a shame that we don't have better detail, as that would make
> the "no duplicates" setting work better.

I'm trying :)

As we discuss below there's only so much I can do with automated scripts. Some
of it, such as choosing between two shows of the same/similar name, is better
handled by humans. Unfortuantely I don't have time to babysit the epg run
every day and choose from options :) For this reason the processors I
currently implement deliberately err on the side of caution and don't match at
all rather than get the wrong info. That's the theory anyway.

> The most likely way that I can
> see this working is if the EPG ends up using information from something
> like tvdb. I can see someone like SchedulesDirect (or maybe a wiki-based
> interface to epg.geek, or something) linking programs to episodes in
> tvdb or imdb etc. While I can't see anyone sitting down and entering in
> the season/episode numbers, subtitles and descriptions reliably enough
> for this, I see it as more likely that someone would find the relevant
> episode in the database and add a link, populating everything
> automatically. It sounds far-fetched, but isn't far off how the likes of
> MusicBrainz/SoundJuicer have resulted in my music collection being
> perfectly tagged. With perfect data, you are right that recording the
> next series of something that you recorded would be sensible (and a lot
> easier).

This is something that's been on my TODO list for a quite some time now. I
imagine a web interface where people can go and view a current program guide.
When they view a program they are presented with possibilities that match from
thetvdb.com or themoviedb.org, click one that matches and data is
automatically populated/overridden.

One of the things that has held me back (apart from free time) is my doubts on
how many contributors there would be. Are there people who honestly think that
they would help out with something such as this?

hads
--
http://nicegear.co.nz
VoIP and Linux compatible hardware

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lists at whitehouse

Jan 14, 2010, 2:21 PM

Post #25 of 25 (3737 views)
Permalink

Re: MHEG fix for freeview HD [In reply to]

Hadley Rich wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:23:40 Aaron Whitehouse wrote:
>> The most likely way that I can
>> see this working is if the EPG ends up using information from something
>> like tvdb. I can see someone like SchedulesDirect (or maybe a wiki-based
>> interface to epg.geek, or something) linking programs to episodes in
>> tvdb or imdb etc.
>
> This is something that's been on my TODO list for a quite some time now. I
> imagine a web interface where people can go and view a current program guide.
> When they view a program they are presented with possibilities that match from
> thetvdb.com or themoviedb.org, click one that matches and data is
> automatically populated/overridden.

Sounds excellent! Perhaps you could crib substantially from MythWeb.

> One of the things that has held me back (apart from free time) is my doubts on
> how many contributors there would be. Are there people who honestly think that
> they would help out with something such as this?

I fully appreciate that this is a free-time thing and you do a great job
already. I guess that my honest answer would be that I would do it for
most shows that I record. It would be a little annoying to have to do it
from scratch every week when it was just the previous week's plus one
episode, but maybe (far down on the wishlist) could be some way of
suggesting that in the interface.

It may be worth contacting Schedules Direct about your plans:
https://www.schedulesdirect.org/contact
as I believe that they were talking about an interface for users to edit
their (already good) data. It seems like a lot of work to do just for NZ
when it would be applicable worldwide.

Regards,

Aaron

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