Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Dev

New MythTV interface announced!!

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richard.e.morton at gmail

Jun 28, 2009, 11:32 AM

Post #1 of 21 (2093 views)
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New MythTV interface announced!!

We have just announced a project to build a complimentary frontend interface
for MythTV.

Summary project information can be found at
www.mythtv.org/wiki/mythtouchmote.

The idea is for MythTV to fully support the use of Touchscreen devices as
the primary interface to MythTV; going way beyond what is available
currently with programs which simply send keystroke commands to the standard
front-end telnet interface.

Devices in mind include Nokia-N800-series (they are cheap on eBay), iPhones,
Android phones, UMPCs, tablets and the like.

Comments on the specification are welcome. People interested in this
solution who are willing to contribute to the bounty and developers, or
development teams, interested in working on bringing the interface into
reality.

www.mythtv.org/wiki/mythtouchmote

kormoc at gmail

Jun 28, 2009, 12:09 PM

Post #2 of 21 (2037 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Richard
Morton<richard.e.morton[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> We have just announced a project to build a complimentary frontend interface
> for MythTV.
> ...

First, your url is wrong, it's http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythTouchMote

Second, who is we? As you're not a part of the mythtv development team
and using we on this list in that fashion can come across as an
attempt to say the mythtv development team is announcing, which is not
the case.

Third, there's no information on the bounty, and nothing on what
happens to other people's money if they send it to you and the project
never happens. Until there's a bit of oversight, I would very strongly
recommend that no-one send you money.

Fourth, a bounty doesn't really entice people if they don't know how much it is.

Fifth, MythUI is partially touchscreen accessible already, work could
continue on the core app in that direction rather then forking off
another version.

Sixth, you haven't even addressed the issue that targeting certain
handheld devices, the recorded media might not work on the device
(hdpvr captures, etc). It seems like you keep making the assumption
that the media will be playable on the device, that's not a safe
assumption.

Seventh, why replace mythweb as part of your app? Just add a
json/xml/whatever template to mythweb and use the core objects there
rather then reinvent that piece again
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
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richard.e.morton at gmail

Jun 29, 2009, 1:14 AM

Post #3 of 21 (2014 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Dear Rob

Please accept our apologies we intended no offence. A group of mythtv users
have been discussing what changes in user interface we'd like to see. We all
work in IT in various areas from ui design to analysis, none of as are web
coders.

We have spent some time on this working through the design, as you well know
good ui design is never a accident.

We'd like to contribute this design to the community and we'd like to see it
realised so much we're prepared to throw a bit of money at it, hoping thata
it would start a community around it. Maybe that was the wrong way to go
about it and for that we're sorry.

With regard to the bounty if there was an interest we'd find a site to
manage the bounty there is no subterfuge here. :-)

I don't want a flame war, iwe just want to see our contribution realised and
improve mythtv for everyone.

Mythtv is great, but as with everything it can also be improved, most
projects get upset when users moan and don't do anything about it!

So, we have done something about it, or at least were trying!

I hope you'll have a read of the document and come on board with the
project; this ui doesn't really compete with anything that is currently part
of mythtv and both paradigms can exist side by side, and certainly will as
everyones situation is different.

With extensions to the telnet interface it is concievable that this user
interface could be created as a part of the frontend.

Hope to speak about this more with you and the community.

Please excuse brevity and mistakes, this email was composed on a mobile
phone.

Thanks and regards,
Richard Morton

On Jun 28, 2009 8:10 PM, "Rob Smith" <kormoc[at]gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Richard Morton<richard.e.morton[at]gmail.com>
wrote: > We have just a...
> ...

First, your url is wrong, it's http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythTouchMote

Second, who is we? As you're not a part of the mythtv development team
and using we on this list in that fashion can come across as an
attempt to say the mythtv development team is announcing, which is not
the case.

Third, there's no information on the bounty, and nothing on what
happens to other people's money if they send it to you and the project
never happens. Until there's a bit of oversight, I would very strongly
recommend that no-one send you money.

Fourth, a bounty doesn't really entice people if they don't know how much it
is.

Fifth, MythUI is partially touchscreen accessible already, work could
continue on the core app in that direction rather then forking off
another version.

Sixth, you haven't even addressed the issue that targeting certain
handheld devices, the recorded media might not work on the device
(hdpvr captures, etc). It seems like you keep making the assumption
that the media will be playable on the device, that's not a safe
assumption.

Seventh, why replace mythweb as part of your app? Just add a
json/xml/whatever template to mythweb and use the core objects there
rather then reinvent that piece again
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

r-mythtv at thefreemanclan

Jun 29, 2009, 8:49 AM

Post #4 of 21 (2002 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Rob Smith wrote:
>
> Sixth, you haven't even addressed the issue that targeting certain
> handheld devices, the recorded media might not work on the device
> (hdpvr captures, etc). It seems like you keep making the assumption
> that the media will be playable on the device, that's not a safe
> assumption.

I'll just single out this issue, but this applies to several of your
other issues - this isn't about playing TV on your android phone. This
is about playing TV on your mythtv frontend on you TV set, and
controlling that playback from your android phone (or whatever). This
probably requires more than just a few minor changes to the GUI.

I'd probably go a little further than this proposal and suggest that
maybe what would best address this need is a generic way to handle the
following as separate layers:

1. Command input.
2. Metadata display (OSD/Menus/etc).
3. Video display.

You could then mix/match these in various ways. Maybe I still want OSD
on the screen, but have it on my remote control as well. Maybe I want
the OSD only on the remote. If you design the interface right, then the
current mythfrontend is just one particular case of the ultimate design,
and lots of other options would exist as well. Maybe I can watch my
show via a flash player in mythweb and still run the OSD and playback
control from my android phone (both on separate networks).

Granted, I'm under no illusions that this is trivial to implement. But,
it certainly would have quite a few benefits if it could be done!
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richard.e.morton at gmail

Jun 29, 2009, 10:37 AM

Post #5 of 21 (2000 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply. We did consider being able to have the UI on the
touch device and on the main screen (especially program information and EPG)
but this gets difficult to integrate and we believe that this would need to
be a phase 2 deliverable. It is quite a large project to complete what we
are proposing but the benefits are substantial. We believe this would become
that standard method of control for many users - you can pick up an N800i
for under �100 on ebay.

LinuxMCE has something similar but LinuxMCE is far more than most people
want, need or could implement in their home (wiring and cost of home
automation & complexities of getting the software to simply work - I know I
have tried ;-).

The bounty is over GBP�500 already from the small band of people who have
designed the solution to date.

This solution maybe chicken-egg until people see it they maynot realise they
need it. the existing MythMote is so simple that I dont use it, remotes have
buttons you can feel and so you can use the physical remote without looking
at the solution. With the existing MythMote you end up with your eyes
darting between Frontend-screen and handheld-screen... not a good look or
user interface. This solution would change that so you keep your eyes on the
tablet until you've started playback.

You mentioned that you'd like to contribute; which areas could you help the
project out?

Thanks and Regards

Richard

xavier.hervy at bluebottle

Jun 30, 2009, 10:18 AM

Post #6 of 21 (1963 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Richard Morton wrote:
>
> Dear Rob
>
> Please accept our apologies we intended no offence. A group of mythtv
> users have been discussing what changes in user interface we'd like to
> see. We all work in IT in various areas from ui design to analysis,
> none of as are web coders.
>
> We have spent some time on this working through the design, as you
> well know good ui design is never a accident.
>
> We'd like to contribute this design to the community and we'd like to
> see it realised so much we're prepared to throw a bit of money at it,
> hoping thata it would start a community around it. Maybe that was the
> wrong way to go about it and for that we're sorry.
>
> With regard to the bounty if there was an interest we'd find a site to
> manage the bounty there is no subterfuge here. :-)
>
> I don't want a flame war, iwe just want to see our contribution
> realised and improve mythtv for everyone.
>
> Mythtv is great, but as with everything it can also be improved, most
> projects get upset when users moan and don't do anything about it!
>
> So, we have done something about it, or at least were trying!
>
> I hope you'll have a read of the document and come on board with the
> project; this ui doesn't really compete with anything that is
> currently part of mythtv and both paradigms can exist side by side,
> and certainly will as everyones situation is different.
>
> With extensions to the telnet interface it is concievable that this
> user interface could be created as a part of the frontend.
>
> Hope to speak about this more with you and the community.
>
> Please excuse brevity and mistakes, this email was composed on a
> mobile phone.
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Richard Morton
>
>
>
>> On Jun 28, 2009 8:10 PM, "Rob Smith" <kormoc[at]gmail.com
>> <mailto:kormoc[at]gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Seventh, why replace mythweb as part of your app? Just add a
>> json/xml/whatever template to mythweb and use the core objects there
>> rather then reinvent that piece again
Hi Richard,
You are not answering to the essential question, why reinventing the wheel ?
You are looking at a pure "web-based architecture", mythweb is there for
you. It would be much less work therefor you will have more chance to
achieve your goal.

You do mention in your document :
"Why not just provide an interface to the existing MythTV frontend and
control it via telnet.
It was considered that we could simply control the MythTV-Frontend via
the telnet interface, but
after experimenting it has been deemed that this provides a less than
ideal experience (slow,
flickering & ugly) even if the command sequence / timing issues could be
resolved."

Sending command through telnet is much quicker than sending it over
http. The key is to use telnet for what it is best for and using http to
retrieve data.

I personally use a simple remote application for Symbian Phone which
does use telnet and I can not say it is slower than using a standard
remote (not mentionning that the range is much better thanks to the wifi).

Xavier

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

Kevin.Fox at pnl

Jun 30, 2009, 11:31 AM

Post #7 of 21 (1960 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Probably a good existing example of what (i think) he wants to
accomplish is XBMC. In XMBC, a client can export control of itself via a
webserver. This control is not basic like injecting key presses. It
allows you to surf through all the music/videos/pictures acceptable to
the client, while leaving the movie your watching currently undisturbed.
Once you select a new thing to view, and only then, does it switch.

This is very nice feature, allowing to do things like look to see if
there is anything better to watch, or if not, keep watching what you
currently are.

This is different then mythweb. Mythweb is kind of a web based myth
client.

The proposed feature lets you sort through all the files in the myth
backend like mythweb does now, but instead of displaying the selection
in the web browser, it happens on the attached mythclient.

Note, this is one of the reasons upnp splits up video playback into 3
parts instead of 2. Digital Media Renderers, Digital Media Servers, and
the thing that tells the renderer to pull from a server, a Digital Media
Controller. The latter being much more complicated then just a key press
injector.

Kevin

On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 10:18 -0700, xavier hervy wrote:
> Richard Morton wrote:
> >
> > Dear Rob
> >
> > Please accept our apologies we intended no offence. A group of
> mythtv
> > users have been discussing what changes in user interface we'd like
> to
> > see. We all work in IT in various areas from ui design to analysis,
> > none of as are web coders.
> >
> > We have spent some time on this working through the design, as you
> > well know good ui design is never a accident.
> >
> > We'd like to contribute this design to the community and we'd like
> to
> > see it realised so much we're prepared to throw a bit of money at
> it,
> > hoping thata it would start a community around it. Maybe that was
> the
> > wrong way to go about it and for that we're sorry.
> >
> > With regard to the bounty if there was an interest we'd find a site
> to
> > manage the bounty there is no subterfuge here. :-)
> >
> > I don't want a flame war, iwe just want to see our contribution
> > realised and improve mythtv for everyone.
> >
> > Mythtv is great, but as with everything it can also be improved,
> most
> > projects get upset when users moan and don't do anything about it!
> >
> > So, we have done something about it, or at least were trying!
> >
> > I hope you'll have a read of the document and come on board with the
> > project; this ui doesn't really compete with anything that is
> > currently part of mythtv and both paradigms can exist side by side,
> > and certainly will as everyones situation is different.
> >
> > With extensions to the telnet interface it is concievable that this
> > user interface could be created as a part of the frontend.
> >
> > Hope to speak about this more with you and the community.
> >
> > Please excuse brevity and mistakes, this email was composed on a
> > mobile phone.
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> > Richard Morton
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jun 28, 2009 8:10 PM, "Rob Smith" <kormoc[at]gmail.com
> >> <mailto:kormoc[at]gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Seventh, why replace mythweb as part of your app? Just add a
> >> json/xml/whatever template to mythweb and use the core objects
> there
> >> rather then reinvent that piece again
> Hi Richard,
> You are not answering to the essential question, why reinventing the
> wheel ?
> You are looking at a pure "web-based architecture", mythweb is there
> for
> you. It would be much less work therefor you will have more chance to
> achieve your goal.
>
> You do mention in your document :
> "Why not just provide an interface to the existing MythTV frontend and
> control it via telnet.
> It was considered that we could simply control the MythTV-Frontend via
> the telnet interface, but
> after experimenting it has been deemed that this provides a less than
> ideal experience (slow,
> flickering & ugly) even if the command sequence / timing issues could
> be
> resolved."
>
> Sending command through telnet is much quicker than sending it over
> http. The key is to use telnet for what it is best for and using http
> to
> retrieve data.
>
> I personally use a simple remote application for Symbian Phone which
> does use telnet and I can not say it is slower than using a standard
> remote (not mentionning that the range is much better thanks to the
> wifi).
>
> Xavier
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-dev mailing list
> mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
>
>

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

richard.e.morton at gmail

Jun 30, 2009, 11:56 AM

Post #8 of 21 (1961 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

HI Xavier,

Thanks for your reply. I just want to start this by asking have you looked
at the design document?

The document at no point says that the solution would or would-not use
MythWeb as its basis. This solution doesn't compete with MythWeb (except for
the maybe "remote keyboard"); they aimed at different purposes ad audiences.

Have you used a Sonos?

Imagine a Sonos remote controller for MythTV... now your getting close to
what we are suggesting... interface on teh remote device; playback through
the stereo & tv.

> You are not answering to the essential question, why reinventing the wheel
?

The Telnet interface is simplistic, doesn't allow you to complete some
simple tasks; it could be extended to do what we want if the mythfrontend
developers were interested in helping us with just a few extensions to the
telnet interface.

> You do mention in your document :
> "Why not just provide an interface to the existing MythTV frontend and
> control it via telnet.
> It was considered that we could simply control the MythTV-Frontend via the
> telnet interface, but
> after experimenting it has been deemed that this provides a less than ideal
> experience (slow,
> flickering & ugly) even if the command sequence / timing issues could be
> resolved."
>

For a start; the interface is designed that there is no need for on screen
menus, there is no need for on screen text... The architecture of the
solution would be up to the developers of the solution - afterall that is
what they are good at...

With a few extensions video playback could be completed via a very
minimalist (almost no) theme and OSD.

Other media playback (i.e. music playlists, pictures etc) would still need
to be completed via a thirdparty application as mythmusic does not have a
telnet interface unless you go the keypress route of navigating into
mythmusic then requesting two presses down for the 3rd album to be
selected... this is not going to be very reliable.

I will update the document

>
> Sending command through telnet is much quicker than sending it over http.
> The key is to use telnet for what it is best for and using http to retrieve
> data.
>

I agree it is all about using the best technology to get the best interface
for users, which will drive adoption. The WAF would go through the roof with
this interface ;-)

>
> I personally use a simple remote application for Symbian Phone which does
> use telnet and I can not say it is slower than using a standard remote (not
> mentionning that the range is much better thanks to the wifi).
>

and for some that is fine, but I have played with the available remotes on
touchscreen devices and I dont think they are where they need to be.
Touchscreens can be so much more than a representation of a physical remote
control - why not just use a device where you can feel the buttons so you
can *see* the results as you can look at the TV.

This solution allows you to look at the screen of the touchdevice... so you
can see where the controls are and read the information rather than having
to move your head back and forth between the two screens (tablet & TV).

Thanks for the feedback... keep it coming.

Rich

>
> Xavier
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-dev mailing list
> mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
>

buehlmann at gmx

Jun 30, 2009, 12:15 PM

Post #9 of 21 (1956 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Hi all,

in my opinion, the mythfrontend contains too much of logic. What about
if mythtv follows somewhat the idea of UPNP:

- The frontend (renderer) only has the ability to render the data it
receives from the controller. This also includes OSD, Menu and
everything... The frontend does not know anything about plugins,
channels or whatever. The frontend can then decide, if it will only
renders the movie, OSD, men� and if it wants to does this using a theme
provided by the controller or using its own layout.

- The controller would then contain most of the logic that is currently
in the mythfrontend. It tells the frontend what to render. The
controller can provide different interfaces to receive commands. Eg.
keystrokes sent by the frontend or any higer level commands sent through
any other devices.

- The backend keeps its role.

Any other frontend (PDA, notebook) could then create its own controller
or connect to an existing one to control it.
A port of the frontend to mac or windows would then be very easy, as it
only needs to render and send commands but does not need to know
anything about plugins, channels, recordings....

Hope the idea is clear...
What do you think about this proposal?
I could also contribute the design an implementation.
Ren�

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kormoc at gmail

Jun 30, 2009, 12:46 PM

Post #10 of 21 (1945 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Kevin Fox<Kevin.Fox[at]pnl.gov> wrote:
> This is different then mythweb. Mythweb is kind of a web based myth
> client.

This is true, but it also allows you to get at all the data about the
media files, display it any way you want (via templates) and allows
you to control frontends, such as the iphone's template allows you to
browse to a recording and say, 'play this recording on the frontend
named x'. You can extend mythweb to do practically all you want right
now.
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

Kevin.Fox at pnl

Jun 30, 2009, 1:09 PM

Post #11 of 21 (1942 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Ah, so really its just a matter of having the right mythweb theme. Thats
very good to know.

Thanks.
Kevin

On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 12:46 -0700, Rob Smith wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Kevin Fox<Kevin.Fox[at]pnl.gov> wrote:
> > This is different then mythweb. Mythweb is kind of a web based myth
> > client.
>
> This is true, but it also allows you to get at all the data about the
> media files, display it any way you want (via templates) and allows
> you to control frontends, such as the iphone's template allows you to
> browse to a recording and say, 'play this recording on the frontend
> named x'. You can extend mythweb to do practically all you want right
> now.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-dev mailing list
> mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
>
>

_______________________________________________
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mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

xavier.hervy at bluebottle

Jun 30, 2009, 5:23 PM

Post #12 of 21 (1928 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Richard Morton wrote:
> HI Xavier,
>
> Thanks for your reply. I just want to start this by asking have you
> looked at the design document?
Yes and no, I took a glance at it (do you really expect me to read 25
pages ;-) )
>
> The document at no point says that the solution would or would-not use
> MythWeb as its basis. This solution doesn't compete with MythWeb
> (except for the maybe "remote keyboard"); they aimed at different
> purposes ad audiences.
>
> Have you used a Sonos?
>
> Imagine a Sonos remote controller for MythTV... now your getting close
> to what we are suggesting... interface on teh remote device; playback
> through the stereo & tv.
I do understand what you are trying to achieve
>
>
> > You are not answering to the essential question, why reinventing the
> wheel ?
>
>
> The Telnet interface is simplistic, doesn't allow you to complete some
> simple tasks; it could be extended to do what we want if the
> mythfrontend developers were interested in helping us with just a few
> extensions to the telnet interface.
At the moment there is 4 ways to communicate with mythtv (AFAIK)
- mythweb: backend & frontends through the web remote (via telnet)
- upnp: backend only (i.e no action)
- telnet: mainly frontend with key , jumpoint and access to the backend
(recordings, listing) in a very slow manner (at least on my phone).
-mythlcdserver: does work roughly like telnet but it does allow to have
some feedbacks from the frontend such as when the user is changing the
current menu, what song is being played in an even driven manner

Unfortunally there is few drawbacks:

- the telnet interface use the keybindings instead of using the actions
(mute, menu, info, back ...) which make all the client relying on the
keybinding, if the keybinding change, all the telnet client will likely
stop working properly. I did try to work on this issue before to allow
the telnet interface to use the action instead, but i had few problems
on the way and nobody to answer my interrogations.

- the telnet interface does not allow more than one connection at the
same time. I send a patch to fix this few months ago, but I do not think
it did make it way to trunk so far.

- the telnet interface does not allow event driven mechanism. it would
be nice to be able to register event listener via telnet, ex:
#registerEventListener music.elaspedTime
and have a feedback such as
#music.elaspedTime 190

- finally the telnet interface does not allow plugin to register an
interface (events, action ... available for a particular plugin)

Such mechanisms could allow to remove mythlcdserver (hack), and replace
it by a telnet client to do the same job, this would resolve the
complexity too.

>
>
> For a start; the interface is designed that there is no need for on
> screen menus, there is no need for on screen text... The architecture
> of the solution would be up to the developers of the solution -
> afterall that is what they are good at...
>
> With a few extensions video playback could be completed via a very
> minimalist (almost no) theme and OSD.
There is no need to change anything in the video playback, you can
already play any videos (recording + mythvideos) on mythfrontend via telnet
>
> Other media playback (i.e. music playlists, pictures etc) would still
> need to be completed via a thirdparty application as mythmusic does
> not have a telnet interface unless you go the keypress route of
> navigating into mythmusic then requesting two presses down for the 3rd
> album to be selected... this is not going to be very reliable...
Why not adding it then ? seems to be a quicker way to me.
>
> I will update the document
>
>
>
>
> Sending command through telnet is much quicker than sending it
> over http. The key is to use telnet for what it is best for and
> using http to retrieve data.
>
>
> I agree it is all about using the best technology to get the best
> interface for users, which will drive adoption. The WAF would go
> through the roof with this interface ;-)
>
>
>
> I personally use a simple remote application for Symbian Phone
> which does use telnet and I can not say it is slower than using a
> standard remote (not mentionning that the range is much better
> thanks to the wifi).
>
>
> and for some that is fine, but I have played with the available
> remotes on touchscreen devices and I dont think they are where they
> need to be. Touchscreens can be so much more than a representation of
> a physical remote control - why not just use a device where you can
> feel the buttons so you can /see/ the results as you can look at the TV...
>
> This solution allows you to look at the screen of the touchdevice...
> so you can see where the controls are and read the information rather
> than having to move your head back and forth between the two screens
> (tablet & TV).
>
>
Should I understand that this proposal rely on the fact that the device
have a web browser ?
If so, I still think you can already do most of this using a modified
(templated) mythweb interface (using telnet in the background).
Xavier
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danielk at cuymedia

Jul 4, 2009, 5:39 PM

Post #13 of 21 (1733 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 19:32 +0100, Richard Morton wrote:
> We have just announced a project to build a complimentary frontend
> interface for MythTV.
>
> Summary project information can be found at
> www.mythtv.org/wiki/mythtouchmote.
> The idea is for MythTV to fully support the use of Touchscreen devices
> as the primary interface to MythTV; going way beyond what is available
> currently with programs which simply send keystroke commands to the
> standard front-end telnet interface.
> Devices in mind include Nokia-N800-series (they are cheap on eBay),
> iPhones, Android phones, UMPCs, tablets and the like.
> Comments on the specification are welcome. People interested in this
> solution who are willing to contribute to the bounty and developers,
> or development teams, interested in working on bringing the interface
> into reality.
> www.mythtv.org/wiki/mythtouchmote

I like the idea of a HTML rendered remote for the frontend, but I think
you will never succeed if you try to implement a new frontend at the
same time. The frontend is not as simple a beast as it may appear to
be.

FYI Eliminating the overlay on the mythfrontend during playback is easy,
just create a new OSD theme without any visible elements.

If you just want a nice remoting interface for MythTV via your N800...
this already exists in LinuxMCE (it uses the telnet interface which as
you already know has some problems.) If you want a better interface,
or one not tied to LinuxMCE, the path of least resistance is to improve
the telnet interface. We've discussed adding secure authentication
before, and you could write a patch for this one weekend if you just
read up on the subject a few nights in the proceeding week. Then just
add any functionality you need to the telnet interface.

There are two other options which are a little more complicated, but
allow for a large selection of devices to be used to control MythTV.
The first is to implement a UPNP Remote UI renderer, see:
http://www.upnp.org/standardizeddcps/remoteui.asp
Then a wide selection of DNLA devices will be able to control MythTV
including PC's running UPNP controlpoint software. This also allows
to implement your own "MythTV UPNP" protocol, but of course you would
want to implement something common like HTTP/HTML or VNC first.
The second is to implement another MythTV web server in the MythTV
frontend, but this one serving up the UI. You would then just connect
to the local telnet interface from within this http server, so you
would still need to correct any problems with the telnet interface.

-- Daniel

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f-myth-users at media

Jul 4, 2009, 10:20 PM

Post #14 of 21 (1724 views)
Permalink

New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:39:14 -0400
From: Daniel Kristjansson <danielk[at]cuymedia.net>

> We've discussed adding secure authentication
> before, and you could write a patch for this one weekend if you just
> read up on the subject a few nights in the proceeding week. Then just
> add any functionality you need to the telnet interface.

Wouldn't a really fast way of adding this be to make the telnet
protocol on both ends use stunnel to actually communicate? Seems
to me this is basically one command on each end with no coding
required; add it to the startup script and you're done. (You
just have to make sure you've grabbed the telnet server's port
so only stunnel talks to it.) I assume I'm missing some detail
that makes this not work, but what?
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richard.e.morton at gmail

Jul 5, 2009, 2:48 AM

Post #15 of 21 (1711 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Hi Daniel,

Excellent feedback thanks for your reply. We will look into UPNP control
point. I think this should be the long term aim for MythTV as it is a
standard. However this part of uPNP still requires an interface being
created for your specific tablet device; I am sure this will happen given
time, but the standard has been released for 5 years and yet I can only find
a couple of pieces of software (after a very brief search) targetting a
couple of platforms; neither have a compelling UI.

Feedback from other contributors have also shown how we can use the Telnet
interface (at least for TV/recording playback via altering the OSD UI),
although video, music, ripping, weather and other plugins would require
either extensions to the telnet interface to permit command control of the
plugin (rather than key-press control); OR implement the playback of
videos/pictures/other plugins in a custom manner - directly controlling
playback software (such as VLC/MPlayer)

I am changing the document to demote the technical architecture suggestions
and instead concentrating on the user experience; it is the developers role
to review the options for implementation and select the correct method
(technical architure will still be in the document but as example
architectures rather than specifying an architecture).

I am aware of LinuxMCE; but have you tried to get it running? I have! It is
far beyond what most people will implement and it is difficult to remove
unused options for the interface (lighting and automation). I also think the
LinuxMCE UI is awful from a visual point of view, although it is quite
usable. Finally LinuxMCE although actively developed is still some way from
moving off Ubuntu 710 and I believe they have been working on the port to
810 since Ubuntu 810s release... that's over a year.

Please bare in mind that this solution is just a design, and we are looking
for developers to help implement this; as mentioned before there is
currently a GBP�500 bounty. If serious interest was shown in developing it,
we'd lodge the bounty at an independant location/website.

The solution will be de-specced to TV/recording/video/&plugins (weather now,
others, video streams/RSS later); this is to make the solution less work;
allow a faster release and therefore more appealing to developers. Hopefully
having a release (and therefore a userbase) will encourage other developers
to create plugins for the solution.

Thanks

Richard

Thanks And Regards,

Richard Morton
07899 750400
GoogleTalk: richard.e.morton[at]gmail.com
MS Messenger: richard.e.morton[at]gmail.com

www.pidgin.im - MSN & Yahoo Messenger and many great features but without
adverts
www.ubuntu.com - a free operating system thats pretty damn good.

to mess up a Linux box, you need to work at it;
to mess up your Windows box, you just need to work on it.
- Scott Granneman, Security Focus

OpenOffice a fully featured office suite that is free, it's so good
Microsoft are adding support for it to their office applications.
www.openoffice.org

"I would change the world if I could, but they wont give me the source
code." --Unknown

2009/7/5 Daniel Kristjansson <danielk[at]cuymedia.net>

> On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 19:32 +0100, Richard Morton wrote:
> > We have just announced a project to build a complimentary frontend
> > interface for MythTV.
> >
> > Summary project information can be found at
> > www.mythtv.org/wiki/mythtouchmote.
> > The idea is for MythTV to fully support the use of Touchscreen devices
> > as the primary interface to MythTV; going way beyond what is available
> > currently with programs which simply send keystroke commands to the
> > standard front-end telnet interface.
> > Devices in mind include Nokia-N800-series (they are cheap on eBay),
> > iPhones, Android phones, UMPCs, tablets and the like.
> > Comments on the specification are welcome. People interested in this
> > solution who are willing to contribute to the bounty and developers,
> > or development teams, interested in working on bringing the interface
> > into reality.
> > www.mythtv.org/wiki/mythtouchmote
>
> I like the idea of a HTML rendered remote for the frontend, but I think
> you will never succeed if you try to implement a new frontend at the
> same time. The frontend is not as simple a beast as it may appear to
> be.
>
> FYI Eliminating the overlay on the mythfrontend during playback is easy,
> just create a new OSD theme without any visible elements.
>
> If you just want a nice remoting interface for MythTV via your N800...
> this already exists in LinuxMCE (it uses the telnet interface which as
> you already know has some problems.) If you want a better interface,
> or one not tied to LinuxMCE, the path of least resistance is to improve
> the telnet interface. We've discussed adding secure authentication
> before, and you could write a patch for this one weekend if you just
> read up on the subject a few nights in the proceeding week. Then just
> add any functionality you need to the telnet interface.
>
> There are two other options which are a little more complicated, but
> allow for a large selection of devices to be used to control MythTV.
> The first is to implement a UPNP Remote UI renderer, see:
> http://www.upnp.org/standardizeddcps/remoteui.asp
> Then a wide selection of DNLA devices will be able to control MythTV
> including PC's running UPNP controlpoint software. This also allows
> to implement your own "MythTV UPNP" protocol, but of course you would
> want to implement something common like HTTP/HTML or VNC first.
> The second is to implement another MythTV web server in the MythTV
> frontend, but this one serving up the UI. You would then just connect
> to the local telnet interface from within this http server, so you
> would still need to correct any problems with the telnet interface.
>
> -- Daniel
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-dev mailing list
> mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
>

richard.e.morton at gmail

Jul 5, 2009, 6:16 AM

Post #16 of 21 (1709 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

New version of the design document is now available at
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythTouchMote

changes include:

- incorporating feedback regarding certain design aspects;
- removal of some areas of design ambiguity;
- seperating comments about possible architecture to a seperate section
and concentrate the document on the user-interface design... (the
implementation should be a development choice as long as the user interface
is well defined).

Regards

Richard

richard.e.morton at gmail

Jul 5, 2009, 6:29 AM

Post #17 of 21 (1704 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Hi Rob,

The document has been altered incorporating much of your feedback and
demoting the architecture design to simply a suggestion; while also
incorporating views that the orginal archtecture was sub-optimal. The
architecture suggested is now telnet control of mythfrontend with slimline
OSD theme for tv and tv recordings.

Rich

danielk at cuymedia

Jul 5, 2009, 7:51 AM

Post #18 of 21 (1707 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

On Sun, 2009-07-05 at 10:48 +0100, Richard Morton wrote:
> Excellent feedback thanks for your reply. We will look into UPNP
> control point. I think this should be the long term aim for MythTV as
> it is a standard. However this part of uPNP still requires an
> interface being created for your specific tablet device; I am sure
> this will happen given time, but the standard has been released for 5
> years and yet I can only find a couple of pieces of software (after a
> very brief search) targetting a couple of platforms; neither have a
> compelling UI.

The UPNP interface is generated by the server, i.e. the mythfrontend
in this case. A UI does not need to be specific to a device, just
specific to it's capabilities. So if Sony releases a device tomorrow
with the same capabilities as the Nokia N8xx devices it would work
out of the box with the N8xx UI.

> Feedback from other contributors have also shown how we can use the
> Telnet interface (at least for TV/recording playback via altering the
> OSD UI), although video, music, ripping, weather and other plugins
> would require either extensions to the telnet interface to permit
> command control of the plugin (rather than key-press control); OR
> implement the playback of videos/pictures/other plugins in a custom
> manner - directly controlling playback software (such as VLC/MPlayer)

Yeah, I've had in mind extending the telnet interface for some time.
I just have not had the time.

> I am aware of LinuxMCE; but have you tried to get it running? I have!
> It is far beyond what most people will implement and it is difficult
> to remove unused options for the interface (lighting and automation).
> I also think the LinuxMCE UI is awful from a visual point of view,
> although it is quite usable. Finally LinuxMCE although actively
> developed is still some way from moving off Ubuntu 710 and I believe
> they have been working on the port to 810 since Ubuntu 810s release...
> that's over a year.

I'm well aware of the capabilities and limitations of LinuxMCE.
I really just wanted you to be aware of it. In part so you don't
lose interest when you discover it and in part so you can learn
from it. Despite it's architectural limitations, the N8xx interface
is very usable for cueing up music without turning on your TV,
but not quite there for controlling MythTV. Using it for a few
weeks will give you an idea of both things to emulate and things
to stay away from.

> Please bare in mind that this solution is just a design, and we are
> looking for developers to help implement this; as mentioned before
> there is currently a GBP�500 bounty. If serious interest was shown in
> developing it, we'd lodge the bounty at an independant
> location/website.

That bounty will not motivate anyone, best just avoid mentioning
it and figure out how to implement things yourself. Learning
programming is not as hard as you might imagine and a GBP�500
budget will buy a lot of books. Really, it is just problem solving
with a set of powerful tools, learning programming is also like
learning mathematics, even if you never use it directly in real-life
the skills you learn will make your life easier. We'll teach you
all the stuff not in the books when we review your patches. Plus,
OSS is like nail soup sometimes, if you get the pot boiling others
will toss in their own turnips.

-- Daniel

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todd at stir

Jul 6, 2009, 3:24 PM

Post #19 of 21 (1625 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

It sounds like you are attempting to create something like Promixis' NetRemote only for Mythtv instead of Windows MCE. It can provide all of that metadata on the remote and then allows you to control it via any NetRemote, however NetRemote is only for Windows PCs, Windows Mobile, and iPhone I think. However it might be a good place to look for ideas, or possibly use as the interface and create a plugin for both MythTV and NetRemote as it might be quicker.

Good luck, it sounds like a very expansive project, but if implemented would probably get me using it.

Todd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Kristjansson" <danielk[at]cuymedia.net>
To: "Development of mythtv" <mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 7:39:14 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [mythtv] New MythTV interface announced!!

On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 19:32 +0100, Richard Morton wrote:
> We have just announced a project to build a complimentary frontend
> interface for MythTV.
>
> Summary project information can be found at
> www.mythtv.org/wiki/mythtouchmote.
> The idea is for MythTV to fully support the use of Touchscreen devices
> as the primary interface to MythTV; going way beyond what is available
> currently with programs which simply send keystroke commands to the
> standard front-end telnet interface.
> Devices in mind include Nokia-N800-series (they are cheap on eBay),
> iPhones, Android phones, UMPCs, tablets and the like.
> Comments on the specification are welcome. People interested in this
> solution who are willing to contribute to the bounty and developers,
> or development teams, interested in working on bringing the interface
> into reality.
> www.mythtv.org/wiki/mythtouchmote

I like the idea of a HTML rendered remote for the frontend, but I think
you will never succeed if you try to implement a new frontend at the
same time. The frontend is not as simple a beast as it may appear to
be.

FYI Eliminating the overlay on the mythfrontend during playback is easy,
just create a new OSD theme without any visible elements.

If you just want a nice remoting interface for MythTV via your N800...
this already exists in LinuxMCE (it uses the telnet interface which as
you already know has some problems.) If you want a better interface,
or one not tied to LinuxMCE, the path of least resistance is to improve
the telnet interface. We've discussed adding secure authentication
before, and you could write a patch for this one weekend if you just
read up on the subject a few nights in the proceeding week. Then just
add any functionality you need to the telnet interface.

There are two other options which are a little more complicated, but
allow for a large selection of devices to be used to control MythTV.
The first is to implement a UPNP Remote UI renderer, see:
http://www.upnp.org/standardizeddcps/remoteui.asp
Then a wide selection of DNLA devices will be able to control MythTV
including PC's running UPNP controlpoint software. This also allows
to implement your own "MythTV UPNP" protocol, but of course you would
want to implement something common like HTTP/HTML or VNC first.
The second is to implement another MythTV web server in the MythTV
frontend, but this one serving up the UI. You would then just connect
to the local telnet interface from within this http server, so you
would still need to correct any problems with the telnet interface.

-- Daniel

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
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richard.e.morton at gmail

Jul 11, 2009, 4:39 AM

Post #20 of 21 (1468 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

Hi Todd

Yep; I have installed and used NetRemote a few years back using
JRMediaCenter when I built a very large digital picture frame and media
center solution for a friend out of a large high res monitor in a frame hung
on a wall...

Are there any specific aspects that should be incorporated in your view
compared to the current design?

Let me know your view; we obviously wish to improve the UI as much as
possible.

Thanks

Rich

mythtv at colin

Jul 15, 2009, 10:48 AM

Post #21 of 21 (1303 views)
Permalink

Re: New MythTV interface announced!! [In reply to]

'Twas brillig, and Daniel Kristjansson at 05/07/09 15:51 did gyre and
gimble:
> OSS is like nail soup sometimes, if you get the pot boiling others
> will toss in their own turnips.

Awesome! Love that quote :)

Col

--

Colin Guthrie
myth(at)colin.guthr.ie
http://colin.guthr.ie/

Day Job:
Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/]
Open Source:
Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/]
PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/]
Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
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