Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Dev

Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments..." was "video sources"

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dcsmith at gmail

Nov 28, 2007, 3:51 PM

Post #1 of 17 (1340 views)
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Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments..." was "video sources"

On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 15:20 -0800, Rob Smith wrote:
> On Nov 28, 2007 3:08 PM, Don Smith <dcsmith[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well if it's over a crossover cable it could be probed. But granted
> > hdhomerun would be difficult. Does that mean that using hal should be
> > off the table alltogether?
>
> As others have requested, top posting is considered bad form in this
> mailing list ( http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List_etiquette#Bottom_post
> ).
>
> Who said HAL was off the table? People pointing out issues with it to
> say it's not as simple to just drop in and replace that screen doesn't
> mean it's off the table, just that it's more complicated then you
> seemed to think.
>
> Really, if myth sucks, stop using it. Bitching about it on the mailing
> lists won't do anything at all other then piss others off. A lot of us
> like or love it. Adding negativity to the community doesn't help
> anyone.
>
> ~Rob
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-dev mailing list
> mythtv-dev[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

Sorry for the top posting, as a rule I prefer it, so I usually do it by
default. did not realize it was this list's etiquette.

As for loving myth, I certainly do, and use it exclusively for all my
media needs. The title was started by someone else and rather than
starting a new one I just replied.
I don't mean to add any negativity to the list, on the contrary I'd like
to know why HAL isn't a drop in replacement, and the homerun is one
thing I hadn't thought of. I'd like to hear other reasons as well so I
can understand the issue better.
One of the reasons I asked the question is that I like to recommend myth
to alot of my friends, but in the current state, I'd be the one setting
it up.

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drees76 at gmail

Nov 28, 2007, 4:00 PM

Post #2 of 17 (1281 views)
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Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments..." was "video sources" [In reply to]

On Nov 28, 2007 3:51 PM, Don Smith <dcsmith[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 15:20 -0800, Rob Smith wrote:
> > As others have requested, top posting is considered bad form in this
> > mailing list ( http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List_etiquette#Bottom_post
> > ).
>
> Sorry for the top posting, as a rule I prefer it, so I usually do it by
> default. did not realize it was this list's etiquette.

Please trim your messages, too:
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List_etiquette#Trim_your_message

-Dave
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stuart at tase

Nov 28, 2007, 4:42 PM

Post #3 of 17 (1271 views)
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Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

On Wednesday 28 November 2007 23:51:16 Don Smith wrote:
> I don't mean to add any negativity to the list, on the contrary I'd like
> to know why HAL isn't a drop in replacement, and the homerun is one
> thing I hadn't thought of. I'd like to hear other reasons as well so I
> can understand the issue better.
> One of the reasons I asked the question is that I like to recommend myth
> to alot of my friends, but in the current state, I'd be the one setting
> it up.

I'm replying to Don's post, but this is aimed not at any individual but to the
list in general.

The devs are well aware of the faults, failings and limitations of mythtv. If
we had the time many of these issues would have been addressed long ago. I've
spent time with other devs at Linux events here in the UK and we've discussed
this subject to death. We've all got a list an arm long of changes we think
need to be made.

The problem isn't that MythTV has dozens of developers waiting for good ideas
to implement, it's the opposite, there are hundreds of ideas and tickets to
be worked on but only a handful of people willing or able to spend their time
working on it. That's the reason we tend to discourage discussion of possible
new features and 'wishlists'; time spent debating changes is better used
working on the code. If you are actively working on a patch and want some
feedback, that's fine but otherwise it isn't constructive.

I'd like to remind everyone that all the developers are unpaid volunteers.
Many of us choose the jobs we work on because they interest us personally and
not because they are considered a high priority by other people. That's the
only way we are ever going to work, who wants to spend their spare time on an
job which they find tedious?

The core developers are also the ones who are going to be maintaining any code
you submit, so when we reject patches we do it for good reason. There are
often long term goals for certain parts of mythtv which aren't always evident
to users, whether it be consolidating areas of code or deprecating things in
favour of better solutions. This can lead to perfectly good ideas or patches
being rejected and the appearance that we are hostile. The reality is that
we're very friendly people but like anyone that is overworked and unpaid we
can be occasionally grumpy.
--
Stuart Morgan
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chrisribe at gmail

Nov 28, 2007, 8:38 PM

Post #4 of 17 (1272 views)
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Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

>
> I'm replying to Don's post, but this is aimed not at any individual but to
> the
> list in general.

Similarly, I'm replying to Stuart's post, but this is aimed at the list in
general. I am responsible for the words "mythtv sucks" being in the
subject, and there seems to be some misunderstanding about what I was
saying.

> The devs are well aware of the faults, failings and limitations of mythtv.
> If
> we had the time many of these issues would have been addressed long ago

[deletia ]

> The problem isn't that MythTV has dozens of developers waiting for good
> ideas
> to implement, it's the opposite, there are hundreds of ideas and tickets
> to
> be worked on but only a handful of people willing or able to spend their
> time
> working on it.

While I am certain this is generally true, if you go back to the beginning
of this thread, you will find it is simply not the case in this instance.

Justin Hornsby, who *is* an active myth developer, although his work is
distributed separately due to license preferences, suggested a change and
volunteered to implement the change. Half a dozen people then responded in
concurrence that a change was needed, and there was some debate about the
what the exact change should be.

Then Mike Dean joined in and said (grossly paraphrased for dramatic effect)
"Everything is perfect the way it is, and no one has ever complained about
this problem."

Now, my point here isn't to pick on Mike, either. He communicates more with
the user base than any other dev. I only wanted to point out that the shape
of the overall debate had taken a familiar form: someone offered to help fix
a problem and was given the old not-invented-here runaround.

I don't necessarily want the core dev team to change the way they work:
mythbackend is the preeminent piece of PVR scheduling/content management
software. Features continue to be added before we even realize we want
them. The frontend is the most feature rich remote control compatible
frontend out there. It somehow manages to combine much of the slickness of
FrontRow with much of the tweakability of mplayer. It could benefit from
some more attention, though. The setup and configuration interfaces of
mythtv are a travesty.

My concern is that the weaker aspects of mythtv will continue be neglected
because the devs will continue to discourage and resist anyone outside
their group making changes that will affect the public's interaction with
mythtv.

All that said, I'll take it upon myself to improve the setup/config
interface if I can get half a dozen people to agree with me on some portion
of what I am saying.

-chris

--
TV/IT Engineer
WCJB-TV Gainesville, FL
(352) 416 0648
cribe[at]wcjb.com

newbury at mandamus

Nov 29, 2007, 2:32 AM

Post #5 of 17 (1252 views)
Permalink

Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

Chris Ribe wrote:

> All that said, I'll take it upon myself to improve the setup/config
> interface if I can get half a dozen people to agree with me on some portion
> of what I am saying.
>
> -chris
>
Yes!

(Tongue VERY firmly planted in cheek!)

Geoff

--
Tux says: "Be regular. Eat cron flakes."
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stuart at tase

Nov 29, 2007, 3:00 AM

Post #6 of 17 (1268 views)
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Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

On Thursday 29 November 2007 04:38:13 Chris Ribe wrote:
> My concern is that the weaker aspects of mythtv will continue be neglected
> because the devs will continue to discourage and resist �anyone outside
> their group making changes that will affect the public's interaction with
> mythtv.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Justin is dev with commit access,
Mike is not. Although Mike has submitted many patches and is well respected
among the devs who spend time in #mythtv, he isn't a 'core' developer yet.
This isn't the case of a core developer telling a contributor that their
patch isn't required, but the other way around. This isn't to say that Mike's
opinion is not important, every view is important and as I said before, Mike
has a lot of respect with some of the devs. Even Mike agrees that Video
Sources is confusing but he has highlighted the difficulty of selecting a
replacement.

Justin asked for opinions and got them, if he didn't expect to see some
negative responses there would have been no need to ask the question before
he made the change. The majority of the core devs who have spoken on the
issue (here and in #mythtv) agree with Justin that it needs to change, the
only sticking point is the replacement wording.
--
Stuart Morgan
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chrisribe at gmail

Nov 29, 2007, 8:13 AM

Post #7 of 17 (1261 views)
Permalink

Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

On Nov 29, 2007 6:00 AM, Stuart Morgan <stuart[at]tase.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thursday 29 November 2007 04:38:13 Chris Ribe wrote:
> > My concern is that the weaker aspects of mythtv will continue be
> neglected
> > because the devs will continue to discourage and resist anyone outside
> > their group making changes that will affect the public's interaction
> with
> > mythtv.
>
> I think there is a misunderstanding here.

Indeed. I'll go crawl back under my rock now. Apologies for the noise.

-chris

--
TV/IT Engineer
WCJB-TV Gainesville, FL
(352) 416 0648
cribe[at]wcjb.com

mtdean at thirdcontact

Nov 29, 2007, 9:52 AM

Post #8 of 17 (1249 views)
Permalink

Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

On 11/28/2007 11:38 PM, Chris Ribe wrote:
> Then Mike Dean joined in and said (grossly paraphrased for dramatic
> effect) "Everything is perfect the way it is, and no one has ever
> complained about this problem."

Uh, you misspelled my name (see below), and, besides, I'm just saying
what Dr. Pangloss told me to say. :)

> Now, my point here isn't to pick on Mike, either. He communicates more
> with the user base than any other dev.

As Stuart mentioned, I'm not a dev, so feel free to ignore my opinion (I
often do). And, BTW, Jay's Programming Sources wording isn't too bad.
I just didn't feel sending a message after his suggestion just to say so
was required--as I don't believe my opinion carries enough wait (pun
intended) for people to hold off on making a change because I said I
didn't like the names that were previously suggested.

Candide
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hendrixski at storsint

Nov 29, 2007, 1:26 PM

Post #9 of 17 (1244 views)
Permalink

Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

> The problem isn't that MythTV has dozens of developers waiting for good ideas
> to implement, it's the opposite, there are hundreds of ideas and tickets to
> be worked on but only a handful of people willing or able to spend their time
> working on it.
If the problem is that there are not enough core developers in Mythtv,
then what is being done to recruit and train new ones?

I browsed the website, SVN, and wiki, and I see no documentation about
"How to become a core dev". Not even a list of who the core devs are
nor tales of their heroic hacks. Is everyone listed in the AUTHORS file
still active? I would have assumed Mr. Dean was a core developer had it
not been mentioned above.

--
- Hendrixski

How to ask questions:
* Do your homework: google it, search archives from lists and forums
* Ask on the appropriate list or forum using a meaningful header
* Be precise, impersonal, to the point, state your goal, and say "please" and "thank you"

How to answer questions:
* Verify what they're asking about, turn bad questions into good ones
* Give information, ask if it answers their question. Rinse & Repeat
* Not all manuals are created equal! link to your favorite one and say "Read This Fine Manual"

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goofdad at gmail

Nov 29, 2007, 1:43 PM

Post #10 of 17 (1253 views)
Permalink

Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

On Nov 29, 2007 1:26 PM, hendrixski <hendrixski[at]storsint.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem isn't that MythTV has dozens of developers waiting for good ideas
> > to implement, it's the opposite, there are hundreds of ideas and tickets to
> > be worked on but only a handful of people willing or able to spend their time
> > working on it.
> If the problem is that there are not enough core developers in Mythtv,
> then what is being done to recruit and train new ones?
>
> I browsed the website, SVN, and wiki, and I see no documentation about
> "How to become a core dev". Not even a list of who the core devs are
> nor tales of their heroic hacks. Is everyone listed in the AUTHORS file
> still active? I would have assumed Mr. Dean was a core developer had it
> not been mentioned above.
>
> --
> - Hendrixski

The way I understand it is that to "become a core dev" you basically
have to impress the stuffing out of the core devs enough that someone
gives you direct commit access. If your patches require significant
rewrites, it's not likely. If you consistently submit patches that
they can check in with little or no changes, it's more likely. For a
list of who currently owns what (and thus, I assume, has commit
rights) you can go here: http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/wiki/GoToDev

HTH
--
Doug
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stuart at tase

Nov 29, 2007, 1:53 PM

Post #11 of 17 (1252 views)
Permalink

Re: HAL and myth was "thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

On Thursday 29 November 2007 21:26:29 hendrixski wrote:
> > The problem isn't that MythTV has dozens of developers waiting for good
> > ideas to implement, it's the opposite, there are hundreds of ideas and
> > tickets to be worked on but only a handful of people willing or able to
> > spend their time working on it.
>
> If the problem is that there are not enough core developers in Mythtv,
> then what is being done to recruit and train new ones?

Core developers are just contributors who have submitted enough quality
patches to attract the attention of the lead developer and are then invited
to join the team. Anyone can become a contributor (or developer without
commit access). Just starting writing bug fixes or new features.

You are encouraged to discuss your work on the -dev list to ensure that you
aren't wasting your time working on the same issue as someone else and that
your approach is good. Otherwise there is nothing stopping every single
person out there from helping.

> I browsed the website, SVN, and wiki, and I see no documentation about
> "How to become a core dev". Not even a list of who the core devs are
> nor tales of their heroic hacks. Is everyone listed in the AUTHORS file
> still active? I would have assumed Mr. Dean was a core developer had it
> not been mentioned above.

There is no HowTo on the subject. You either show a commitment and enthusiasm
for working on MythTV by submitting patches to fix bugs and add useful
features, or you don't. The only difference between the core devs and
contributors is commit access.

You can get a good idea of who the core devs are by subscribing to
the -commits list.

For a list of major contributors see: http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/wiki/GoToDev
and http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Category:MythDevelopers
--
Stuart Morgan
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hendrixski at storsint

Nov 29, 2007, 6:22 PM

Post #12 of 17 (1235 views)
Permalink

Re: thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

Stuart Morgan wrote:
> hendrixski wrote:
>
>>> The problem isn't that MythTV has dozens of developers waiting for good
>>> ideas to implement, it's the opposite, there are hundreds of ideas and
>>> tickets to be worked on but only a handful of people willing or able to
>>> spend their time working on it.
>>>
>> If the problem is that there are not enough core developers in Mythtv,
>> then what is being done to recruit and train new ones?
>>
> Anyone can become a contributor (or developer without
> commit access). Just starting writing bug fixes or new features.
>
>
:-) Yup, and I'm working on such a contribution with someone else right
now. If I may politely re-pose my question, I was asking more about the
amount of _outreach_ for finding new developers and contributors, and
for fostering talent.

Would an outreach program like training events for newbies, or
structured seminars for existing contributors, and a mentoring program
to turn contributors into core devs, solve the problem of "too many good
ideas not enough implementors"? Is there already something like that?

The point is... I would benefit if there were a structured class or
group-tutorial session on how to make better mythtv contributions, and
I'd like to know if such educational options exist. Because
Google/lists/IRC only gets you so far.

:-) hope that doesn't sound silly :-)

> For a list of major contributors see: http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/wiki/GoToDev
> and http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Category:MythDevelopers
>
:-) Sweet. Thanks. That's pretty helpful to know, because it's kind of
putting a few recent posts into perspective for me. :-)

--
- Hendrixski

How to ask questions:
* Do your homework: google it, search archives from lists and forums
* Ask on the appropriate list or forum using a meaningful header
* Be precise, impersonal, to the point, state your goal, and say "please" and "thank you"

How to answer questions:
* Verify what they're asking about, turn bad questions into good ones
* Give information, ask if it answers their question. Rinse & Repeat
* Not all manuals are created equal! link to your favorite one and say "Read This Fine Manual"

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stuarta at squashedfrog

Nov 30, 2007, 3:07 AM

Post #13 of 17 (1200 views)
Permalink

Re: thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

hendrixski wrote:
> Stuart Morgan wrote:
>> hendrixski wrote:
>>
>>>> The problem isn't that MythTV has dozens of developers waiting for good
>>>> ideas to implement, it's the opposite, there are hundreds of ideas and
>>>> tickets to be worked on but only a handful of people willing or able to
>>>> spend their time working on it.
>>>>
>>> If the problem is that there are not enough core developers in Mythtv,
>>> then what is being done to recruit and train new ones?
>>>
>> Anyone can become a contributor (or developer without
>> commit access). Just starting writing bug fixes or new features.
>>
>>
> :-) Yup, and I'm working on such a contribution with someone else right
> now. If I may politely re-pose my question, I was asking more about the
> amount of _outreach_ for finding new developers and contributors, and
> for fostering talent.
>
> Would an outreach program like training events for newbies, or
> structured seminars for existing contributors, and a mentoring program
> to turn contributors into core devs, solve the problem of "too many good
> ideas not enough implementors"? Is there already something like that?
>
> The point is... I would benefit if there were a structured class or
> group-tutorial session on how to make better mythtv contributions, and
> I'd like to know if such educational options exist. Because
> Google/lists/IRC only gets you so far.
>

Interesting idea. One of the reasons that i've seen a few people give up
on good ideas is that when it's pointed out what their brilliant idea
entails they lose interest because it becomes too hard.

I guess the multirec branch is a good illustration of this. The idea is
simple. Record multiple things off the same multiplex. Relatively simple
from a pure DVB point of view, but making it all work inside the myth
framework is a complex and ongoing project.

There's a reason we often say to people, okay why don't you start here
and then work towards what you want to achieve, it's because once you
starting digging, you realize just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Things like DVB are a good example of this. You have the specifications
which if the world was a good and sensible place, everyone would adhere
to. In reality it turns out that a lot of implementers have glanced at
the standards and implemented them the way they felt like.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that in quite a few areas of myth you
end up needing a lot of background knowledge. Would these sessions of
yours help with this? That I don't know....

Stuart A
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hendrixski at storsint

Dec 5, 2007, 7:24 AM

Post #14 of 17 (1155 views)
Permalink

Re: thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

> I guess what i'm trying to say is that in quite a few areas of myth you
> end up needing a lot of background knowledge. Would these sessions of
> yours help with this? That I don't know....

Well, I don't want this to be known as my idea, I'm just brainstorming
publicly. I know that with Debian packaging the rabit hole goes pretty
deep, and Ubuntu has a TON of training opportunities to turn newbies into
valuable contributors, and then sessions to turn valuabla contributors
into full blown developers.

Would it help? Shall we find out? Who's up for giving it a try?

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ajlill at ajlc

Dec 5, 2007, 1:40 PM

Post #15 of 17 (1152 views)
Permalink

Re: thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

hendrixski[at]storsint.com writes:

>> I guess what i'm trying to say is that in quite a few areas of myth you
>> end up needing a lot of background knowledge. Would these sessions of
>> yours help with this? That I don't know....
>
> Well, I don't want this to be known as my idea, I'm just brainstorming
> publicly. I know that with Debian packaging the rabit hole goes pretty
> deep, and Ubuntu has a TON of training opportunities to turn newbies into
> valuable contributors, and then sessions to turn valuabla contributors
> into full blown developers.
>
> Would it help? Shall we find out? Who's up for giving it a try?

You know, there's this thing that we used to do in the olden days when
dinosaurs still stalked the earth. It's called documentation. When you
wrote some code you put these things called comments in there that
explained what and why you were doing something. That way if someone
else wanted to modify your code they didn't have to reverse-engineer
your whole project.

Maybe if the main contributers took a week off from adding cool new
features and documented some of the danker dungeons of myth, potential
contributers wouldn't get discouraged and give up. Might be a good new
years resolution...

I'll go back to being a grumpy old engineer now..
--
Tony Lill, Tony.Lill[at]AJLC.Waterloo.ON.CA
President, A. J. Lill Consultants fax/data (519) 650 3571
539 Grand Valley Dr., Cambridge, Ont. N3H 2S2 (519) 241 2461
--------------- http://www.ajlc.waterloo.on.ca/ ----------------

Understatement of the century:
"Hello everybody out there using minix - I'm doing a (free) operating
system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for
386(486) AT clones"

- Linus Torvalds, August 1991

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nigel at ind

Dec 5, 2007, 2:47 PM

Post #16 of 17 (1149 views)
Permalink

Re: thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

> You know, there's this thing that we used to do in the olden days when
> dinosaurs still stalked the earth. It's called documentation.

Must ... control ... fist ... of ... death!

1) http://www.cuymedia.net/mythtv-trunk

2) Not helpful.
The devs have been documenting things.

3) We document, restructure, and apply patches
as we have time/motivation available.

Patches for documentation would be applied
as soon as we get them because they do not
actually break anything.

And I will now go back to bug-hunting,
because some things
are even more important than doco :-)

--
Nigel Pearson, nigel[at]ind.tansu.com.au| 4 8
Telstra Net. Eng., Sydney, Australia | 15 16
Office: 9202 3900 Fax: 9261 3912 | 23 42
Mobile: 0408 664435 Home: 9792 6998 | Lost

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hendrixski at storsint

Dec 9, 2007, 8:44 AM

Post #17 of 17 (1083 views)
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Re: thoughts about the "mythtv sucks" comments... " was "video sources" [In reply to]

>>> I guess what i'm trying to say is that in quite a few areas of myth you
>>> end up needing a lot of background knowledge. Would these sessions of
>>> yours help with this? That I don't know....
>>>
>> Ubuntu has a TON of training opportunities to turn newbies into
>> valuable contributors, and then sessions to turn valuabla contributors
>> into full blown developers.
>>
>> Would it help? Shall we find out? Who's up for giving it a try?
>>
> You know, there's this thing that we used to do in the olden days when
> dinosaurs still stalked the earth. It's called documentation.

Documentation is good for self-training. But aside from self-training
there exists also the option of organized training events. Let's
_assume_ that the documentation + lists/irc is sufficient for anybody to
teach themselves how to code for mythtv. The question at hand is : would
it be worth it to hold a "class" in *addition* to all that, which
teaches a group of people how to get better at mythtv development, and
gives a more complete picture (including background knowledge) than
documentation alone could.

Daniel Kristjansson said Ubuntu can do this because of having a
billionaire-backed budget. I would argue that perhaps Canonical is
saving time and money on this by getting better contributions, that save
time for the core developers. If mythtv devs could save time by
receiving better patches that require fewer corrections, would any of
them like to invest a little time teaching contributors in order to
achieve this long-term time-saving?

Stuart Auchterlonie's response indicates that we don't know if it would
in fact save time, or would successfully give people the background
knowledge needed for certain tasks, so I'll just politely bring this
back up: Would we like to try it once or twice and find out?

Classroom ideas include: "how to better debug mythtv with valgrind",
"how to do X, Y and Z, in multirec", "About DVB implementations",
"Architecture Q&A" etc. etc.

- Hendrixski

--
- Hendrixski

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