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Default duplicate check method

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stuart at tase

Sep 14, 2007, 2:04 PM

Post #1 of 11 (1837 views)
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Default duplicate check method

At least here in the UK with any of the available guide data
sources, "Subtitle then Description" would produce much better results
than "Subtitle & Description". I don't assume that the default should change
just because it would make things easier for those of us in the UK, so I'd
like to discuss what this change would mean for most MythTV users.

The behaviour of "Subtitle then Description" seems to better fit with the
normal usage of the subtitle field (unique episode naming). Does anyone see
the subtitles in their guide data being re-used for different episodes? I'm
not saying that it doesn't happen at all, but does it happen for more than a
handful of series?

Although subtitles will usually remain constant, repeat showings might have a
differing description because it was written by a different person, at a
different time. This makes "Subtitle & Description" unreliable.

So why not make "Subtitle Only" the default? Well there are also going to be
programmes which don't use the subtitle at all. At which point falling back
to checking the description is a reasonable compromise.

IMHO this small change could bring the behaviour of MythTV closer to the
expectations of users. Most users, and especially newbies, want a one-click
experience and this means choosing sensible default values. Changing this
might inconvenience a few people, but if I'm right then it will make life
easier for most*.

* Few users in U.S. will be affected as unique programids are mostly used
there instead of the duplicate check methods.

Does anyone have a different opinion, or can you point out the flaw in my
reasoning?
--
Stuart Morgan
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lists at ebourne

Sep 15, 2007, 2:00 PM

Post #2 of 11 (1740 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:04:50 +0100, Stuart Morgan wrote:
> At least here in the UK with any of the available guide data sources,
> "Subtitle then Description" would produce much better results than
> "Subtitle & Description". I don't assume that the default should change
> just because it would make things easier for those of us in the UK, so
> I'd like to discuss what this change would mean for most MythTV users.
>
> The behaviour of "Subtitle then Description" seems to better fit with
> the normal usage of the subtitle field (unique episode naming). Does
> anyone see the subtitles in their guide data being re-used for different
> episodes? I'm not saying that it doesn't happen at all, but does it
> happen for more than a handful of series?

Yes, I've seen this happen in the UK. I used subtitle then description
for everything as soon as it was available (I applied the patch before it
hit svn).

Within a few weeks I had had two cases where subtitles were duplicated
when they shouldn't and recordings (the wife's unfortunately) were
missed. Now I'm more careful to select subtitle then description only
where needed.

I don't think it should be default, better a duplicate that takes 2
seconds to delete than lose something you really wanted.

Cheers,

Martin.

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knowledgejunkie at gmail

Sep 15, 2007, 10:51 PM

Post #3 of 11 (1731 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

On 14/09/2007, Stuart Morgan <stuart [at] tase> wrote:

> Although subtitles will usually remain constant, repeat showings might have a
> differing description because it was written by a different person, at a
> different time. This makes "Subtitle & Description" unreliable.

This is frequently the case with listings from the Radio Times for
popular series which commonly have a personalised review for the first
showing by a RT writer, and then default to the less lengthy
'standard' description for future showings provides by their listings
service provider.
--
Nick Morrott

MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
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mythtv at longhome

Sep 17, 2007, 6:01 AM

Post #4 of 11 (1768 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

On Fri, September 14, 2007 10:04 pm, Stuart Morgan wrote:
> At least here in the UK with any of the available guide data
> sources, "Subtitle then Description" would produce much better results
than "Subtitle & Description". I don't assume that the default should
change
> just because it would make things easier for those of us in the UK, so
I'd like to discuss what this change would mean for most MythTV users.
>
> The behaviour of "Subtitle then Description" seems to better fit with
the normal usage of the subtitle field (unique episode naming). Does
anyone see
> the subtitles in their guide data being re-used for different episodes? I'm
> not saying that it doesn't happen at all, but does it happen for more
than a
> handful of series?
>
> Although subtitles will usually remain constant, repeat showings might
have a
> differing description because it was written by a different person, at a
different time. This makes "Subtitle & Description" unreliable.
>
> So why not make "Subtitle Only" the default? Well there are also going
to be
> programmes which don't use the subtitle at all. At which point falling back
> to checking the description is a reasonable compromise.
>
> IMHO this small change could bring the behaviour of MythTV closer to the
expectations of users. Most users, and especially newbies, want a
one-click
> experience and this means choosing sensible default values. Changing
this might inconvenience a few people, but if I'm right then it will
make life easier for most*.
>
> * Few users in U.S. will be affected as unique programids are mostly
used there instead of the duplicate check methods.
>
> Does anyone have a different opinion, or can you point out the flaw in
my reasoning?

Hi Stuart,

As the contributor of the said method, and also being in the UK, I would
agree that this is 99% of the time the best option, and I've even hacked
it to be my personal default. When it was originally accepted it was the
default, but it received some complaints, due to the cases you mentioned,
and the orignal default was put back.

In particular, often colons are used in show titles eg "American Idol: The
Results", and these programs fall foul of the 's then d' method.

What I think would be useful, is a way of setting default values for new
recordings - this would not be limited to just the dup-method, but also
many of the other settings - recording group, check for duplicates in, etc
etc.

Martin

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otto at kolsi

Sep 17, 2007, 9:08 AM

Post #5 of 11 (1737 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

Martin Long(myth) wrote:
> agree that this is 99% of the time the best option, and I've even hacked
> it to be my personal default. When it was originally accepted it was the
...
> What I think would be useful, is a way of setting default values for new
> recordings - this would not be limited to just the dup-method, but also
> many of the other settings - recording group, check for duplicates in, etc
> etc.

I've also modified both myth code and MythWeb to have "Description" as a
default. By default in here we don't have subtitles at all and thus this
is the best default for me. Like Martin said, it would be very useful to
be able to set various defaults that are used.
--
Otto
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stuart at tase

Sep 17, 2007, 9:49 AM

Post #6 of 11 (1738 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

On Monday 17 September 2007 17:08:36 Otto Kolsi wrote:
> I've also modified both myth code and MythWeb to have "Description" as a
> default. By default in here we don't have subtitles at all and thus this
> is the best default for me. Like Martin said, it would be very useful to
> be able to set various defaults that are used.

Subtitle then Description would work just as well in this case.

I'd forgotten that "Subtitle then Description" was made the default when it
was introduced and that due to complaints it was switched back. I think the
decision to switch back was made too quickly (there is resistance to all
change). I'll accept that even though I think the method is superior,
convincing people of that might be difficult.

It comes down to an argument over incorrect positive and negative matches. If
you have excess disk space and several tuners, then you might not mind
recording lots of duplicates if it means you never miss an episode. If you
are short on disk space or tuners you probably don't want to record any
duplicates, because you will lose recordings to the auto-expirer or
conflicts.

I'm coming around to the idea that instead of changing the default, we could
just remember the preferred setting. My dilemma is that I dislike adding new
settings, IMHO there are already too many. We could instead just remember
the 'last used' setting as in most cases people won't be changing the method
that often.

Otherwise, we just have to wait (again) until someone can figure out a better
solution.
--
Stuart Morgan
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cpinkham at bc2va

Sep 17, 2007, 6:46 PM

Post #7 of 11 (1726 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

* On Mon Sep 17, 2007 at 05:49:06PM +0100, Stuart Morgan wrote:
> I'm coming around to the idea that instead of changing the default, we could
> just remember the preferred setting. My dilemma is that I dislike adding new
> settings, IMHO there are already too many. We could instead just remember
> the 'last used' setting as in most cases people won't be changing the method
> that often.
>
> Otherwise, we just have to wait (again) until someone can figure out a better
> solution.

The 'settings' could be as simple as a new 'fake' recording type that we ignore
for Scheduling, but use for the scheduled recording editor. So, we'd have
a new 'kDefaultRecSettings' RecordingType equal to -2. This would be ignored
by the scheduler, but there would be an entry in the record table with this
-1 type and that would provide the scheduled recording editor with the defaults
to use for a new scheduled recording. We could even get fancy and have
multiples samples in the future, with the title indicating the sample name.
The 'Sports' sample could be put in Dad's recgroup with a +2 priority and
and ending 30 minutes late, while 'Cartoons' would go in the kids group with
a -1 priority and UserJob1 turned on by default. By storing these samples in
the record table, we can use the existing Scheduled Recording editor to edit
them and don't end up with 5 new pages in the settings area.

--
Chris
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Sep 17, 2007, 6:56 PM

Post #8 of 11 (1715 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

On 09/17/2007 12:49 PM, Stuart Morgan wrote:
> Subtitle then Description would work just as well in this case.
>
> I'd forgotten that "Subtitle then Description" was made the default when it
> was introduced and that due to complaints it was switched back. I think the
> decision to switch back was made too quickly (there is resistance to all
> change). I'll accept that even though I think the method is superior,
> convincing people of that might be difficult.
>
> It comes down to an argument over incorrect positive and negative matches. If
> you have excess disk space and several tuners, then you might not mind
> recording lots of duplicates if it means you never miss an episode. If you
> are short on disk space or tuners you probably don't want to record any
> duplicates, because you will lose recordings to the auto-expirer or
> conflicts.
>
> I'm coming around to the idea that instead of changing the default, we could
> just remember the preferred setting. My dilemma is that I dislike adding new
> settings, IMHO there are already too many. We could instead just remember
> the 'last used' setting as in most cases people won't be changing the method
> that often.
>
> Otherwise, we just have to wait (again) until someone can figure out a better
> solution.

Not to speak for Martin, but I think (and please correct me if I'm
wrong) he was talking about a sort of "Rule Groups" (to keep the
"Groups" terminology going ;), which--like Playback Groups--allows you
to specify a "group" of default recording rule settings with a name.
With that approach, on creation of a new recording rule, one could
either specify individual settings for the rule (i.e. record on any
channel at any time with the Default recording profile at +5 priority
using subtitle then description duplicate matching in the whatever
Recording Group to be stored in the whatever Storage Group and starting
1 minute early and ending 1 minute late and ...) or could simply choose
the "default" or "Parents" or ... Rule Group (which automatically fills
in the values for all the individual recording rule settings and allows
"overriding" any settings through the normal UI). So, the Rule Groups
work are kind of the MythTV recording rule equivalent of a browser's
"saved forms" functionality--it just pre-fills the form and allows
changes. And, this approach doesn't create any new settings (users who
never create Rule Groups get one--the "default" group--which has the
same defaults as are used currently (possibly, though, changing the
default for dup matching :).

BTW, I'm not (yet) volunteering to write this code (as I have something
that's higher on my priority list to do for Myth), but in time I may do so.

Mike
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mythtv at longhome

Sep 18, 2007, 12:17 AM

Post #9 of 11 (1706 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

On Tue, September 18, 2007 2:56 am, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 09/17/2007 12:49 PM, Stuart Morgan wrote:
>> Subtitle then Description would work just as well in this case.
>>
>> I'd forgotten that "Subtitle then Description" was made the default when
>> it
>> was introduced and that due to complaints it was switched back. I think
>> the
>> decision to switch back was made too quickly (there is resistance to all
>> change). I'll accept that even though I think the method is superior,
>> convincing people of that might be difficult.
>>
>> It comes down to an argument over incorrect positive and negative
>> matches. If
>> you have excess disk space and several tuners, then you might not mind
>> recording lots of duplicates if it means you never miss an episode. If
>> you
>> are short on disk space or tuners you probably don't want to record any
>> duplicates, because you will lose recordings to the auto-expirer or
>> conflicts.
>>
>> I'm coming around to the idea that instead of changing the default, we
>> could
>> just remember the preferred setting. My dilemma is that I dislike adding
>> new
>> settings, IMHO there are already too many. We could instead just
>> remember
>> the 'last used' setting as in most cases people won't be changing the
>> method
>> that often.
>>
>> Otherwise, we just have to wait (again) until someone can figure out a
>> better
>> solution.
>
> Not to speak for Martin, but I think (and please correct me if I'm
> wrong) he was talking about a sort of "Rule Groups" (to keep the
> "Groups" terminology going ;), which--like Playback Groups--allows you
> to specify a "group" of default recording rule settings with a name.
> With that approach, on creation of a new recording rule, one could
> either specify individual settings for the rule (i.e. record on any
> channel at any time with the Default recording profile at +5 priority
> using subtitle then description duplicate matching in the whatever
> Recording Group to be stored in the whatever Storage Group and starting
> 1 minute early and ending 1 minute late and ...) or could simply choose
> the "default" or "Parents" or ... Rule Group (which automatically fills
> in the values for all the individual recording rule settings and allows
> "overriding" any settings through the normal UI). So, the Rule Groups
> work are kind of the MythTV recording rule equivalent of a browser's
> "saved forms" functionality--it just pre-fills the form and allows
> changes. And, this approach doesn't create any new settings (users who
> never create Rule Groups get one--the "default" group--which has the
> same defaults as are used currently (possibly, though, changing the
> default for dup matching :).
>
> BTW, I'm not (yet) volunteering to write this code (as I have something
> that's higher on my priority list to do for Myth), but in time I may do
> so.
>

Exactly what I had in mind, and I think Chris Pinkham's implementation
looks like a pretty good idea.

I might start to look at implementing this, as soon as I can stop my
machine from crashing.
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james at fidell

Sep 18, 2007, 10:14 AM

Post #10 of 11 (1727 views)
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Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

On a related note:

I use primarily RT data for my schedules, but EIT data for Freeview
channels where RT data isn't available. I've noticed that particulary
for Radio 7 (and possibly for Radio 4, too) the programme descriptions
for repeats match with the exception of a "[Rptd at ... ]." section at
the end.

I was going to try to ignore that part in the code that matches
programmes for duplicates, but the SQL was becoming hideous, so I've
changed the EIT fixup code to (I hope :) drop that text. I'm testing it
at the moment.

James
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schachte at csse

Sep 19, 2007, 6:44 PM

Post #11 of 11 (1669 views)
Permalink

Re: Default duplicate check method [In reply to]

Chris Pinkham wrote:
> The 'settings' could be as simple as a new 'fake' recording type that we ignore
> for Scheduling, but use for the scheduled recording editor. So, we'd have
> a new 'kDefaultRecSettings' RecordingType equal to -2. This would be ignored
> by the scheduler, but there would be an entry in the record table with this
> -1 type and that would provide the scheduled recording editor with the defaults
> to use for a new scheduled recording. We could even get fancy and have
> multiples samples in the future, with the title indicating the sample name.
> The 'Sports' sample could be put in Dad's recgroup with a +2 priority and
> and ending 30 minutes late, while 'Cartoons' would go in the kids group with
> a -1 priority and UserJob1 turned on by default. By storing these samples in
> the record table, we can use the existing Scheduled Recording editor to edit
> them and don't end up with 5 new pages in the settings area.

Michael T. Dean wrote:
> Not to speak for Martin, but I think (and please correct me if I'm
> wrong) he was talking about a sort of "Rule Groups" (to keep the
> "Groups" terminology going ;), which--like Playback Groups--allows you
> to specify a "group" of default recording rule settings with a name.
> With that approach, on creation of a new recording rule, one could
> either specify individual settings for the rule (i.e. record on any
> channel at any time with the Default recording profile at +5 priority
> using subtitle then description duplicate matching in the whatever
> Recording Group to be stored in the whatever Storage Group and starting
> 1 minute early and ending 1 minute late and ...) or could simply choose
> the "default" or "Parents" or ... Rule Group (which automatically fills
> in the values for all the individual recording rule settings and allows
> "overriding" any settings through the normal UI).

These are great ideas! Most of my scheduled recordings have one of a few
different sets of settings. It would be very convenient to set up "canned"
recording settings templates (should they be called setting groups?) and then
reuse them when scheduling a new recording, much like the way playback groups work.

A couple of things would make this even more useful. Firstly it would be nice
to be able to specify patterns of program names, categories, channels, etc for
each canned recording settings to automatically apply to, much as you can do
with playback groups. Eg, you could specify that particular settings apply to
all sporting programs with "football" in the title, or anything broadcast on
ABC, NBC, or CBS between 7pm and 11pm. Of course, you'd still want to be able
to explicitly specify a template to apply.

The second thing that would be nice would be to allow *multiple* settings to be
applied to a particular newly scheduled recording. For example, I record a
different number of minutes late for programs on different channels, but that's
orthogonal to issues of whether or not I want to transcode the recording, which
is orthogonal to issues of whether to autoexpire, how many episodes to keep,
and what to do when there are too many episodes. To allow multiple templates
to be applied, it would have to be possible for each setting to be left
unspecified, so it doesn't replace the existing setting when it's applied.
Eg, a template could specify just start early and end late settings, but leave
everything else unspecified (defaulted).

I know these suggestions complicate things a bit, but together they'd get Myth
close to being able to just hit the record button when looking at a program
listing, choose whether you want a single or recurring recording, and have Myth
automagically do the right thing according to your preconfigured preferences.

--
Peter Schachte Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but
schachte [at] cs only those to describe the picture. Hardly any
www.cs.mu.oz.au/~schachte/ sets of 10K words can be adequately described
Phone: +61 3 8344 1338 with pictures.
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