Login | Register For Free | Help
Search for: (Advanced)

Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Dev

"A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048

 

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All MythTV dev RSS feed   Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded


skd5aner at gmail

Feb 5, 2007, 7:06 PM

Post #1 of 33 (15566 views)
Permalink
"A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048

Stuart and Ylee (and other devs),

I saw this when browsing the commits log today:
http://mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-commits/2007-February/025915.html

"(In [12723]) Ignore 'An' along with 'The' and 'A' in the programme finder.

Closes #3048"

I don't believe "An" or "A" should be stripped when sorting. I also
noticed this in mythmusic. For example... the Band named "A Perfect
Circle" isn't refered to as "Perfect Circle". Also, I believe "An"
should be in the same boat.

However, I still believe that "The" should be ignored in sorting.
This is traditionally how the majority of media players sort their
playlists. iTunes, WMP, etc.

What does everyone else think?

Thanks!
Matt
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


cpinkham at bc2va

Feb 5, 2007, 7:42 PM

Post #2 of 33 (15204 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

* On Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 09:06:16PM -0600, Matt wrote:
> I saw this when browsing the commits log today:
> http://mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-commits/2007-February/025915.html
>
> "(In [12723]) Ignore 'An' along with 'The' and 'A' in the programme finder.
>
> Closes #3048"
>
> I don't believe "An" or "A" should be stripped when sorting. I also
> noticed this in mythmusic. For example... the Band named "A Perfect
> Circle" isn't refered to as "Perfect Circle". Also, I believe "An"
> should be in the same boat.
>
> However, I still believe that "The" should be ignored in sorting.

Not that I care since I don't use MythMusic, but I'm sure "The Who"
would disagree with you on this point. :)

--
Chris
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


turbo at talstar

Feb 5, 2007, 7:55 PM

Post #3 of 33 (15266 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

Matt wrote:
> I don't believe "An" or "A" should be stripped when sorting. I also
> noticed this in mythmusic. For example... the Band named "A Perfect
> Circle" isn't refered to as "Perfect Circle". Also, I believe "An"
> should be in the same boat.

In musical group names, I would agree... but not in TV & Movie
titles. "A", "An", and "The" should not be considered when sorting
these titles.

> However, I still believe that "The" should be ignored in sorting.
> This is traditionally how the majority of media players sort their
> playlists. iTunes, WMP, etc.
>
> What does everyone else think?

Well, since you asked, here's my take on sorting music artists... ;)

I'm not particularly enthralled with the way the current sorting
works, either. I'm equally non-plussed by the way iTunes, WMP, (and I'm
throwing my Zen 40G Jukebox in with the 'etc') sorts artists, either.
Both methods fail in one respect or another.

Currently, the sort looks like:

10,000 Maniacs
3 Doors Down
Al Green
The Beatles
Booker T. & The MG's
Carl Perkins
Frank Zappa
The Hooters
Huey Lewis and The News
Hurricane Smith
Journey
Looking Glass
Paul Simon
The Police
Simon & Garfunkel
ZZ Top

Ideally, it should be alphabetized by {GROUPNAME} if it's a band name
(usually ignoring A, AN, and THE), {LASTNAME,FIRSTNAME} in the case of
an individual artist, and bands consisting of, or starting with, numbers
should be alphabetized as if the number were spelled out. Most pop
music references (and 'the bible', as it were - Joel Whitburn's "Top
Pop") alphabetize artist names as such:

The Beatles (Beatles)
Booker T. & The MG's (Booker T. & The MG's)
Al Green (Green, Al)
The Hooters (Hooters)
Journey (Journey)
Huey Lewis and The News (Lewis, Huey and The News)
Looking Glass (Looking Glass)
Carl Perkins (Perkins, Carl)
The Police (Police)
Paul Simon (Simon, Paul)
Simon & Garfunkel (Simon, Paul & Garfunkel, Art)
Hurricane Smith (Smith, Hurricane)
10,000 Maniacs (Ten Thousand Maniacs)
3 Doors Down (Three Doors Down)
Frank Zappa (Zappa, Frank)
ZZ Top (ZZ Top)

So, it's not simply a matter of stripping off "A", "An" and "The"
from the artist name -- it's really a matter of devising an
understandable, consistent manner of alphabetizing. Accomplishing this
algorithmically would be impossible (or, at the very least, quite
tedious!). It would be far easier to create a new (not necessarily
displayed) column in the music_artists table strictly for
sorting/listing purposes (SORT_NAME). This field could be
automatically (or algorithmically) "filled in" when songs are imported
into mythmusic (derived from the 'Artist' id3 tag or from the directory
name), but easily changed by the end-user if desired when editing the
meta-info/tag info (via the 'info' button) in mythmusic.

It doesn't seem like this would pose a very large programming task,
either -- the "default" fill could simply be a blind copy of the current
'Artist' field. Those that wish could simply change the SORT_NAME field
to cause the sorting of a particular entry to be done differently.
There would need to be some minor tweaking of the current sort for the
numbers (10,000 Maniacs & 3 Doors Down), but everything else necessary
to achieve the result as in the second list, above, is very minor
programming.

If Paul and/or Stuart aren't up to it, I'd be more than willing to
make the necessary change(s) and submit a patch, once they're both done
with what they're doing in the mythmusic code.

- briand

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


david at hardeman

Feb 6, 2007, 12:09 AM

Post #4 of 33 (15206 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On Tue, February 6, 2007 4:06, Matt said:
> I don't believe "An" or "A" should be stripped when sorting. I also
> noticed this in mythmusic. For example... the Band named "A Perfect
> Circle" isn't refered to as "Perfect Circle". Also, I believe "An"
> should be in the same boat.
>
> However, I still believe that "The" should be ignored in sorting.
> This is traditionally how the majority of media players sort their
> playlists. iTunes, WMP, etc.
>
> What does everyone else think?

Hardcoding special handling for "A", "An", "The" and phonetic versions of
numerals (as was suggested in another reply to this mail) does not sound
like a good idea from a i10n pov (LC_COLLATE anyone?).

Most people who use my MythTV box just find the
"almost-alphabetically-sorted-except-in-a-few-cases" sorting confusing.

So whatever method(s) is/are implemented, I hope they'll be user
configurable (perhaps one multiple-choice option of which sorting method
to use and then apply that method both in MythMusic and the recordings
screen?).

--
David Härdeman

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


stevehodge at gmail

Feb 6, 2007, 4:03 AM

Post #5 of 33 (15197 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On 2/6/07, David Härdeman <david [at] hardeman> wrote:
>
> Most people who use my MythTV box just find the
> "almost-alphabetically-sorted-except-in-a-few-cases" sorting confusing.
>

Yes. I don't really care what the scheme is, so long as I know what it is
(and it's easy to remember). I think I would prefer simply sorting without
removing "A", "An" or "The".

Steve


chamilton at cs

Feb 6, 2007, 4:38 AM

Post #6 of 33 (15206 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

> On 2/6/07, David Härdeman <david [at] hardeman> wrote:
>>
>> Most people who use my MythTV box just find the
>> "almost-alphabetically-sorted-except-in-a-few-cases" sorting confusing.
>>
>
> Yes. I don't really care what the scheme is, so long as I know what it is
> (and it's easy to remember). I think I would prefer simply sorting without
> removing "A", "An" or "The".

I would prefer it to be configurable. In fact, my preference is to
remove the prefixes and then *not* put them back in front, but rather
leave them at the right hand side (ie: "The Show" -> "Show, The"). I
currently have a patch that does this, and also lets the set of prefixes
be configurable (I wanted to add support for the common French prefixes
"Le", "La", "Les" and "L'"). If this is at all interesting to people
I'll clean it up and attach it to the ticket... (currently the behaviour
is compile time configurable rather than through the settings table).

Cheers,

Chris Hamilton
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


chamilton at cs

Feb 6, 2007, 4:40 AM

Post #7 of 33 (15196 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

> On 2/6/07, David Härdeman <david [at] hardeman> wrote:
>>
>> Most people who use my MythTV box just find the
>> "almost-alphabetically-sorted-except-in-a-few-cases" sorting confusing.
>>
>
> Yes. I don't really care what the scheme is, so long as I know what it is
> (and it's easy to remember). I think I would prefer simply sorting without
> removing "A", "An" or "The".

I should point out my previously referenced patch only addresses the
sorting of TV show names, and doesn't touch MythMusic.

Chris
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


memoryguy at gmail

Feb 6, 2007, 5:15 AM

Post #8 of 33 (15189 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On 06/02/07, Chris Hamilton <chamilton [at] cs> wrote:

>
> I would prefer it to be configurable. In fact, my preference is to
> remove the prefixes and then *not* put them back in front, but rather
> leave them at the right hand side (ie: "The Show" -> "Show, The"). I
> currently have a patch that does this, and also lets the set of prefixes
> be configurable (I wanted to add support for the common French prefixes
> "Le", "La", "Les" and "L'"). If this is at all interesting to people
> I'll clean it up and attach it to the ticket... (currently the behaviour
> is compile time configurable rather than through the settings table).



I agree. In fact, if I recall correctly, this is how it used to work, and I
did like it much better. Then it was changed for some reason. Scrolling
through a list of program names, I find it awkward and somewhat confusing to
have to actually read each line to find where the "interesting" part of the
title really starts.

If your patch applies to SVN, I'd be interested in trying it out.... :)

--
aaron

"Oh oh oh. I'm incoherent with excitement. Please tell me what fascinating
bit of badger-spewtumly inconsequential trivia you will assail me with
next."
-- Arthur Dent


stuart at tase

Feb 6, 2007, 5:25 AM

Post #9 of 33 (15281 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On Tuesday 6 February 2007 12:38, Chris Hamilton wrote:
> > On 2/6/07, David Härdeman <david [at] hardeman> wrote:
> >> Most people who use my MythTV box just find the
> >> "almost-alphabetically-sorted-except-in-a-few-cases" sorting confusing.
> >
> > Yes. I don't really care what the scheme is, so long as I know what it is
> > (and it's easy to remember). I think I would prefer simply sorting
> > without removing "A", "An" or "The".
>
> I would prefer it to be configurable. In fact, my preference is to
> remove the prefixes and then *not* put them back in front, but rather
> leave them at the right hand side (ie: "The Show" -> "Show, The").

Which area are you referring to? The programme finder already behaves this
way.

On the subject as a whole I have to be honest and say I couldn't really care,
I'd rather remove the sorting completely than put in the work to make it work
for everyone. There are other more important areas which need work.

It's already been pointed out that 'An' is a common German word and so it's
obvious that some locale specific implementation is needed if the sorting
stays. Now from a design point of view, it would be best if this wasn't
hard-coded but rather made external and handled by translators. There is an
argument for creating locale config files, which would sit in the l18n
directory. It would allow translators to define the default settings for
their region, e.g. Date/Time formats, Articles (The, An, A etc) and
primary/secondary languages. These options would be cached in the database,
but making changes and adding new locales wouldn't require recompiling.

If an English user wants French articles, then they can opt to edit the locale
config.

What we want to avoid is adding yet more settings and settings screens,
especially for settings which few people would use.
--
Stuart Morgan
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


mythtv-dev at phipps-hutton

Feb 6, 2007, 5:28 AM

Post #10 of 33 (15186 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On Tuesday 6 February 2007 3:42 am, Chris Pinkham wrote:
> * On Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 09:06:16PM -0600, Matt wrote:
> > However, I still believe that "The" should be ignored in sorting.
> Not that I care since I don't use MythMusic, but I'm sure "The Who"
> would disagree with you on this point. :)

...and what about "The The"? I don't want them to disappear. My vote is to
sort using the name of the artist/band as the artist/band would write it.
It's their name after all and I think it's only polite to respect that.

Cheers,
Tim.
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


stuart at tase

Feb 6, 2007, 5:28 AM

Post #11 of 33 (15180 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On Tuesday 6 February 2007 13:25, Stuart Morgan wrote:
> > I would prefer it to be configurable. In fact, my preference is to
> > remove the prefixes and then *not* put them back in front, but rather
> > leave them at the right hand side (ie: "The Show" -> "Show, The").
>
> Which area are you referring to? The programme finder already behaves this
> way.

I take it back, I hadn't noticed this had changed.

--
Stuart Morgan
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


danielk at cuymedia

Feb 6, 2007, 5:45 AM

Post #12 of 33 (15189 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 13:28 +0000, Tim Phipps wrote:
> On Tuesday 6 February 2007 3:42 am, Chris Pinkham wrote:
> > * On Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 09:06:16PM -0600, Matt wrote:
> > > However, I still believe that "The" should be ignored in sorting.
> > Not that I care since I don't use MythMusic, but I'm sure "The Who"
> > would disagree with you on this point. :)
>
> ...and what about "The The"? I don't want them to disappear. My vote is to
> sort using the name of the artist/band as the artist/band would write it.
> It's their name after all and I think it's only polite to respect that.

"The The" would be sorted as if it were a single "The".

The reason real-world libraries and MythTV discard the leading
article when sorting is because otherwise half the titles
would be sorted under "A" and the other half under "T".

If we got rid of this behaviour any person who has ever visited
a library would be telling us that we should discard the leading
article when sorting, and they would be right.

-- Daniel (a former Page & current bookshelf collector)

PS There is nothing wrong with greying out the article
as a form of hinting for the non-literary.


_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


chamilton at cs

Feb 6, 2007, 5:48 AM

Post #13 of 33 (15223 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

> On Tuesday 6 February 2007 3:42 am, Chris Pinkham wrote:
>> * On Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 09:06:16PM -0600, Matt wrote:
>>> However, I still believe that "The" should be ignored in sorting.
>> Not that I care since I don't use MythMusic, but I'm sure "The Who"
>> would disagree with you on this point. :)
>
> ...and what about "The The"? I don't want them to disappear. My vote is to
> sort using the name of the artist/band as the artist/band would write it.
> It's their name after all and I think it's only polite to respect that.

While this is very pragmatic, its not very practical (IMHO). The
problem I have with this is in my music collection, there are roughly 30
bands bands whose names begin with any given letter 'A', 'B', etc.
However, there are 106 bands beginning with a 'T', and out of those 70
of them start with a 'The'. So, when navigating through my music I
would have a disproportionately large 'T' section, which is a little
tedious to navigate through.

As I stated earlier, my preference would be to let this be configurable
as follows:

(1) Is prefix handling enabled?
(2) If enabled, what is the set of prefixes to look for?
(people using different or multiple languages might want to
configure these prefixes)
(3) If a prefix is found, how is it displayed?
(left at the beginning, or moved to the end?)

The way prefixes are currently handled (at runtime, string is check for
a match against each of the prefixes, the prefix is moved to the right
hand side of the string, the strings are sorted, then the prefix is
moved back), this gets quite expensive (and introduces noticeable lag)
as soon as you move past 3 or 4 prefixes. To this end, it seems like it
might be preferable to introduce a new field to the database (for music
at least) as mentioned by brian, which gets populated when the database
is built.

Chris
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


mythtv-dev2 at dwilga-linux1

Feb 6, 2007, 6:27 AM

Post #14 of 33 (15195 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

Being a sometimes radio DJ, I have to chime in about why this is a
fruitless discussion. Consider the rules traditionally used in
alphabetizing media in a record store:

- ignore articles and special characters (a, an, the, ".", "...")
- treat numbers (10,000 Maniacs) as their written equivalent (ten thousand)
- when the band's name is that of a person in the band, alphabetize
by the last name--but not when the name is unrelated to the band
members

This last one is the most difficult, since it requires a human being
to know that Janis Joplin should be alphabetized using "Joplin"
because that's really her last name, but that Jethro Tull should be
alphabetized using "Jethro" because nobody in the band has that name.

IMHO, unless you're able to include all three of these criteria, you
might as well just sort the band name exactly as-is.
--
Dan Wilga "Ook."
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


mythtv-dev at hyperbole-software

Feb 6, 2007, 8:06 AM

Post #15 of 33 (15205 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

Chris Hamilton wrote:

><snip...>
>I currently have a patch that does this, and also lets the set of prefixes
>be configurable (I wanted to add support for the common French prefixes
>"Le", "La", "Les" and "L'"). If this is at all interesting to people
>I'll clean it up and attach it to the ticket... (currently the behaviour
>is compile time configurable rather than through the settings table).
>
>
>
>
I would be interested in seeing that patch. This is area I've been
interested in for a while and it would be good to see alternatives to
the way I think about it.



Carl.



_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


ylee at pobox

Feb 6, 2007, 9:59 AM

Post #16 of 33 (15171 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

Dan Wilga <mythtv-dev2 [at] dwilga-linux1> says:
> Being a sometimes radio DJ, I have to chime in about why this is a
> fruitless discussion.

[...]

> IMHO, unless you're able to include all three of these criteria, you
> might as well just sort the band name exactly as-is.

Agreed, and thanks for the music-industry perspective. However, I
think it's also clear that your rules #1 and #2 *do* apply to TV shows
and movies, while rule #3 doesn't. So MythMusic definitely needs
different sorting rules than the rest of MythTV.

--
Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox> | +1 650 776 7763 | San Francisco CA US
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


memoryguy at gmail

Feb 6, 2007, 11:48 AM

Post #17 of 33 (15196 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On 06/02/07, Stuart Morgan <stuart [at] tase> wrote:
> On Tuesday 6 February 2007 13:25, Stuart Morgan wrote:
> > > I would prefer it to be configurable. In fact, my preference is to
> > > remove the prefixes and then *not* put them back in front, but rather
> > > leave them at the right hand side (ie: "The Show" -> "Show, The").
> >
> > Which area are you referring to? The programme finder already behaves this
> > way.
>
> I take it back, I hadn't noticed this had changed.

It changed a fair while ago --- over a year ago, I think? ... I
remember the change going in, and at the time I quietly hoped someone
would complain about it... but alas, no one did. :/

--
aaron

"Oh oh oh. I'm incoherent with excitement. Please tell me what fascinating
bit of badger-spewtumly inconsequential trivia you will assail me with next."
-- Arthur Dent
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


chamilton at cs

Feb 6, 2007, 12:19 PM

Post #18 of 33 (15170 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

> There is an
> argument for creating locale config files, which would sit in the l18n
> directory. It would allow translators to define the default settings for
> their region, e.g. Date/Time formats, Articles (The, An, A etc) and
> primary/secondary languages.

Are there standard formats for such files? Something particular in mind?
I imagine that such a system of configuration files would be
hierarchichal (ie: a global Germany config file, then smaller files for
each geographic region that over-rides some of these features). Is this
typically the case?

Also, would it make sense to have 'language' config files, specifying
things that are language dependent and which tend to be consistent
across all regions speaking that language (for example, articles in
English are the same in the US, Canada and the UK; or to continue the
previous example, both the Germany and Switzerland files may reference
the German files).

(I'm a total newbie when it comes to i18n stuff, but am more than
willing to learn and help out...)

> These options would be cached in the database,
> but making changes and adding new locales wouldn't require recompiling.

Sounds reasonable.

Chris
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


stevehodge at gmail

Feb 6, 2007, 1:44 PM

Post #19 of 33 (15176 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On 2/7/07, Dan Wilga <mythtv-dev2 [at] dwilga-linux1> wrote:
>
> - ignore articles and special characters (a, an, the, ".", "...")
> - treat numbers (10,000 Maniacs) as their written equivalent (ten
> thousand)
> - when the band's name is that of a person in the band, alphabetize
> by the last name--but not when the name is unrelated to the band
> members
>
> This last one is the most difficult, since it requires a human being
> to know that Janis Joplin should be alphabetized using "Joplin"
> because that's really her last name, but that Jethro Tull should be
> alphabetized using "Jethro" because nobody in the band has that name.
>

That third one can be tough on users as well. How am I supposed to know that
Janis Joplin is sorted as 'Joplin', but Jethro Tull is sorted as 'Tull'?
I'm going to end up searching for one of those in the wrong place until I
start to remember which one is where (and surely the point of sorting is so
that I don't have to remember where stuff is).

I think the best solution is to have a separate name field for sorting. Then
users can arrange stuff however they desire.

Cheers,
Steve


turbo at talstar

Feb 6, 2007, 2:16 PM

Post #20 of 33 (15164 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

Steve Hodge wrote:
> I think the best solution is to have a separate name field for sorting.
> Then users can arrange stuff however they desire.

Exactly. And, the point I had hoped to (but apparently didn't quite)
make in my earlier post. If we create a SORT_NAME column in the
mythconverg.music_artists table, and use that column to sort/populate
the list, it would solve everybody's issue(s).

By copying the artist_name column directly, the lists in mythmusic
would appear exactly as they always have. For those that wish to alter
the sort (by {LASTNAME,FIRSTNAME}, skip 'A', 'An', 'The', 'Le', 'Les',
etc, or to convert "10,000" to "Ten Thousand" for sorting purposes), all
they would need to do is alter the text presentation in this new
column. That would provide a "solution" to everybody's concerns on
this topic, at least as far as mythmusic goes...

-- brian
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


turbo at talstar

Feb 6, 2007, 2:35 PM

Post #21 of 33 (15160 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

Yeechang Lee wrote:
> Dan Wilga <mythtv-dev2 [at] dwilga-linux1> says:
>> Being a sometimes radio DJ, I have to chime in about why this is a
>> fruitless discussion.
>
> [...]
>
>> IMHO, unless you're able to include all three of these criteria, you
>> might as well just sort the band name exactly as-is.
>
> Agreed, and thanks for the music-industry perspective. However, I
> think it's also clear that your rules #1 and #2 *do* apply to TV shows
> and movies, while rule #3 doesn't. So MythMusic definitely needs
> different sorting rules than the rest of MythTV.

My proposed solution (see previous post on this thread) would satisfy
all three 'rules' pointed out by Dan, as well as allow for those that
don't want anything to change from how it works currently.

And please add my name to the "music-industry perspective" list
adding to this discussion. I did afternoon drive (and occasional
fill-in on other shifts) in addition to managing production and
copy-writing at a top 50-market radio station for several years. This
may explain my interest in getting my mythmusic list sorted in a
specific manner. I've got thousands and thousands of mp3 files to add
to my system -- my goal being every single that ever hit the Billboard
Hot 100 chart, from 1955 (when Billboard started keeping records, and
generally considered the beginning of the "Rock & Roll" era) to present.
(and, no, I don't have all of them encoded... yet)

-- brian


_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


nigel at ind

Feb 6, 2007, 3:08 PM

Post #22 of 33 (15173 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

> - ignore articles and special characters (a, an, the, ".", "...")
> - treat numbers (10,000 Maniacs) as their written equivalent (ten
> thousand)
> - when the band's name is that of a person in the band, alphabetize
> by the last name--but not when the name is unrelated to the band
> members
>
> This last one is the most difficult, since it requires a human being
> to know that Janis Joplin should be alphabetized using "Joplin"
> because that's really her last name, but that Jethro Tull should be
> alphabetized using "Jethro" because nobody in the band has that name.

Indeed.

I think the only way to satisfy this _perfectly_
would be to have a "Sort As" field for everything
in the database that has a displayed name.

When something new is imported, the default user
sort-by rule is applied, but the user has the chance
to later scroll through the names, and move a selector
back or forward a word, or maybe type an unrelated term.
(e.g. Various, Rhapsody in Blue
gets sorted as Gershwin, not various?)



I personally am not sufficiently motivated
to add something like this, though.


Different people sort things different ways,
(different languages probably use different rules),
and we have to cope with it when looking through
long lists of stuff. Pedants complain. Husbands and
wifes disagree how to sort their DVD collections.
Maybe we just have to deal with it?


> IMHO, unless you're able to include all three of these criteria, you
> might as well just sort the band name exactly as-is.

That would be my vote!
--
Nigel Pearson, nigel [at] ind| "Peacemaking is our profession"
Telstra Net. Eng., Sydney, Australia |Motto of Burpelson Airforce Base
Office: 9202 3900 Fax: 9261 3912 |Commanded by Gen. Jack D. Ripper
Mobile: 0408 664435 Home: 9792 6998 | Dr Strangelove

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


ylee at pobox

Feb 6, 2007, 4:35 PM

Post #23 of 33 (15160 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

Nigel Pearson <nigel [at] ind> says:
> I think the only way to satisfy this _perfectly_
> would be to have a "Sort As" field for everything
> in the database that has a displayed name.

[...]

> I personally am not sufficiently motivated
> to add something like this, though.

While I agree it's something to shoot for as the optimal solution, I
agree that it's probably not going to come along anytime soon.

> > IMHO, unless you're able to include all three of these criteria,
> > you might as well just sort the band name exactly as-is.
>
> That would be my vote!

Mine as well, *for MythMusic*. For TV programs and recordings,
article-stripping-when-sorting is clearly the right way to go as the
default (although an option to turn this off wouldn't be a bad idea).

--
Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox> | +1 650 776 7763 | San Francisco CA US
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


funaho at jurai

Feb 10, 2007, 9:59 PM

Post #24 of 33 (15211 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 22:55 -0500, brian wrote:
> Matt wrote:
> > I don't believe "An" or "A" should be stripped when sorting. I also
> > noticed this in mythmusic. For example... the Band named "A Perfect
> > Circle" isn't refered to as "Perfect Circle". Also, I believe "An"
> > should be in the same boat.
>
> In musical group names, I would agree... but not in TV & Movie
> titles. "A", "An", and "The" should not be considered when sorting
> these titles.

My only grip is that sometimes it's not always obvious, like when I
recently wasted quite a bit of time trying to figure out why MythVideo
was seemingly ignoring my fresh DVD rip of "An Inconvenient Truth",
until I finally realized it was sorted under "I". To me the "An" in this
case is an important part of the title and I could easily imagine a
totally different movie called "Inconvenient Truth."

(and speaking of letters will Video Manager ever allow me to hit a
letter and jump to that part of the list? I have something like 5,100
videos and scrolling to anything that's not near the beginning or end of
the list is an exercise in extreme frustration...)

--
Joshua M Thompson <funaho [at] jurai>

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev


schachte at csse

Feb 11, 2007, 8:11 PM

Post #25 of 33 (15119 views)
Permalink
Re: "A", "An", and "The" for sorting - ticket 3048 [In reply to]

Joshua M Thompson wrote:

> (and speaking of letters will Video Manager ever allow me to hit a
> letter and jump to that part of the list? I have something like 5,100
> videos and scrolling to anything that's not near the beginning or end of
> the list is an exercise in extreme frustration...)

That'd be great if you've got a proper keyboard, but not too much help if
you're just using a remote. How about using the digit keys? Pressing a digit
key n could jump you to n/9 of the way through the list. Eg, pressing 0 takes
you to the beginning, 9 to the end, 3 to 1/3 of the way through the list, and 5
to 55.5% of the way through. I'd find that useful when scrolling through
artists in mythmusic, too.

--
Peter Schachte We must not think that computation ... has place
schachte [at] cs only in numbers.
www.cs.mu.oz.au/~schachte/ -- Thomas Hobbes, 1655
Phone: +61 3 8344 1338
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All MythTV dev RSS feed   Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded
 
 


Interested in having your list archived? Contact Gossamer Threads
 
  Web Applications & Managed Hosting Powered by Gossamer Threads Inc.