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stas at stason

Dec 26, 2004, 11:57 AM

Post #1 of 13 (14808 views)
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Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates

My submission to /.org made it to the Apache section:
<http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/12/25/1414211.shtml?tid=145&tid=2>
It's about asking to help testing the mp2-RCs.

--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas [at] stason http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
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merlyn at stonehenge

Dec 26, 2004, 12:34 PM

Post #2 of 13 (14339 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

>>>>> "Stas" == Stas Bekman <stas [at] stason> writes:

Stas> My submission to /.org made it to the Apache section:
Stas> <http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/12/25/1414211.shtml?tid=145&tid=2>
Stas> It's about asking to help testing the mp2-RCs.

Oh good. Another place to post my "use Apache2 considered harmful"
rant... <http://apache.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=133957&cid=11186211>
Thanks for pointing it out.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn [at] stonehenge> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
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dan at brians

Dec 26, 2004, 8:29 PM

Post #3 of 13 (14350 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

> Stas> My submission to /.org made it to the Apache section:
> Stas>
> <http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/12/25/1414211.shtml?
> tid=145&tid=2>
> Stas> It's about asking to help testing the mp2-RCs.
>
> Oh good. Another place to post my "use Apache2 considered harmful"
> rant...
> <http://apache.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=133957&cid=11186211>
> Thanks for pointing it out.

Oh good. Another place to read Randal's "use Apache2 considered
harmful" rant... Thanks for pointing it out.

Is this considered a dead topic, or is there some consideration being
given to the points he raises?


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geoff at modperlcookbook

Dec 27, 2004, 7:01 AM

Post #4 of 13 (14327 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>"Stas" == Stas Bekman <stas [at] stason> writes:
>
>
> Stas> My submission to /.org made it to the Apache section:
> Stas> <http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/12/25/1414211.shtml?tid=145&tid=2>
> Stas> It's about asking to help testing the mp2-RCs.
>
> Oh good. Another place to post my "use Apache2 considered harmful"
> rant... <http://apache.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=133957&cid=11186211>
> Thanks for pointing it out.

I can't say how disappointed I am in this post, and your behavior in general
here. the fact is that this is a complex issue, for developers and users
alike, but all you have done to help is throw harsh criticisms against those
who work the hardest. do you really want to see mod_perl 2.0 fail? have
you nothing to offer our community now besides criticisms and negative press?

please be a part of the community and help make a good product even better -
we can use all the genuine help we can get. I would hate to see your
obvious talents used solely to disrespect to stas and the others who have
worked very, very hard to bring you mod_perl.

--Geoff

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merlyn at stonehenge

Dec 27, 2004, 7:09 AM

Post #5 of 13 (14328 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

>>>>> "Geoffrey" == Geoffrey Young <geoff [at] modperlcookbook> writes:

Geoffrey> I can't say how disappointed I am in this post, and your
Geoffrey> behavior in general here. the fact is that this is a
Geoffrey> complex issue, for developers and users alike, but all you
Geoffrey> have done to help is throw harsh criticisms against those
Geoffrey> who work the hardest. do you really want to see mod_perl
Geoffrey> 2.0 fail? have you nothing to offer our community now
Geoffrey> besides criticisms and negative press?

Geoffrey> please be a part of the community and help make a good
Geoffrey> product even better - we can use all the genuine help we can
Geoffrey> get. I would hate to see your obvious talents used solely
Geoffrey> to disrespect to stas and the others who have worked very,
Geoffrey> very hard to bring you mod_perl.

I *want* modperl to succeed. I *want* modperl2 to succeed. I believe
Stas has made two significant errors in this process, however:

1) expecting people to not have modperl1 for a significant time
following the modperl2 release, like everyone would "upgrade
tomorrow" thus trivializing the overlap issue.

2) expecting every step of the Perl distribution network to
accommodate the hacky "use Apache2" solution instead of working on
a more compatible solution. This means the CPAN indexer, the
CPAN/CPANP installation tools, the "perldoc" command, and manpage
installation (and others that I'm probably forgetting) which
presume that Perl's installation @INC won't be magically mangled.

I was not made aware of *either* of these errors until recently. So,
maybe my ranting seems a bit "day late and dollar short", but these
mistakes are both critical to modperl2's acceptance into the
mainstream.

I would love to help. Tell me how. So far, the only thing I can see
to do is to report these mistakes so that they can be discussed. I've
seen reasonable support for my position... in fact, the only strong
opposition appears to be Stas! And this is perfectly understandable.
Stas has invested himself in an unworkable path. It'll take some work
to sort it out. I'm willing to help with that.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn [at] stonehenge> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

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geoff at modperlcookbook

Dec 27, 2004, 7:36 AM

Post #6 of 13 (14375 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

> I *want* modperl to succeed. I *want* modperl2 to succeed.

good :)

> I believe
> Stas has made two significant errors in this process, however:
>
> 1) expecting people to not have modperl1 for a significant time
> following the modperl2 release, like everyone would "upgrade
> tomorrow" thus trivializing the overlap issue.

actually, I don't see that at all. the way it works now is that if mp2 sees
a mp1 install it will install itself into Apache2/ to avoid confrontation.
the result is that mp1 will continue to function in normal perl terms - the
CPAN shell will do the right thing for mp1 modules (at least insofar as it
used to), perldoc will work correctly, etc.

so, in installing mp2 over mp1 the mp2 install should be invisible unless
you take explicit steps to make it otherwise. if this isn't the case then
it's an issue that should be immediately addressed, since that has been our
goal since the start. mp1 should continue without interruption.

the only kink here would be third-party CPAN modules for only mp2 - those
are _required_ to use ModPerl::MM::WriteMakefile (which knows to install
into Apache2/ if that's where mp2 was installed) instead of
ExtUtils::MakeMaker::WriteMakefile. while I've tried to do my best here
with a bunch of modules and perl.com articles, perhaps this point hasn't
been clear enough to the masses and that should be addressed.

>
> 2) expecting every step of the Perl distribution network to
> accommodate the hacky "use Apache2" solution instead of working on
> a more compatible solution. This means the CPAN indexer, the
> CPAN/CPANP installation tools, the "perldoc" command, and manpage
> installation (and others that I'm probably forgetting) which
> presume that Perl's installation @INC won't be magically mangled.

I don't think we expect CPAN to grok Apache2, just the local filesystem and
@INC. but you're right, the entire perldoc/CPAN/@INC thing is a real issue.

however, it's not as simple as renaming everything Apache2::*. why? it
just doesn't scale well. for example, there are _already_ compat issues
between mod_perl for Apache 2.1/2.2 and Apache2.0, so right away we would
need Apache2::* for modules that use the Apache 2.0 API and Apache2.2::* for
those that use the 2.2 API. then perhaps Apache3::* someday, etc...

so, it's a more complex issue than people give it credit for. and
(unfortunately) mod_perl isn't the only one that suffers from it - stas has
mentioned GD and I was recently troubled by SQLite, but I'm sure that there
are other namespaces out there who struggle with versioning and external
libraries.

>
> I was not made aware of *either* of these errors until recently. So,
> maybe my ranting seems a bit "day late and dollar short",

indeed. but we're here working it out instead of going off in a huff, which
is the way it should be. kudos to all :)

> but these
> mistakes are both critical to modperl2's acceptance into the
> mainstream.

well, perhaps. I can see how it would really affect users who rely heavily
on the CPAN shell and perldoc, but I don't think it's as much of an issue
for people used to using wget and the online docs. so, in other words, it
probably affects the casual user more than the dedicated mod_perl
application developer. but that's just my suspicion. in either case,
something should be done to make things right.

>
> I would love to help. Tell me how. So far, the only thing I can see
> to do is to report these mistakes so that they can be discussed. I've
> seen reasonable support for my position... in fact, the only strong
> opposition appears to be Stas! And this is perfectly understandable.
> Stas has invested himself in an unworkable path. It'll take some work
> to sort it out. I'm willing to help with that.

great!

what I think really needs to happen is that there should be a common way for
all things perl to deal with this issue - one that scales easily to many,
many versions and that common perl tools understand. if one is developed
mod_perl would certainly follow it. cpan-discuss [at] perl is where this
specific issue seems to come and go, so perhaps that is the best place to
sort it all out.

but until there is a universal solution, it's difficult for us mod_perl dev
people to "do the right thing" when no such thing exists. but let's work it
out together, which I'm sure we can.

--Geoff

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stas at stason

Dec 27, 2004, 7:47 AM

Post #7 of 13 (14334 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

Geoffrey Young wrote:

> I don't think we expect CPAN to grok Apache2, just the local filesystem and
> @INC. but you're right, the entire perldoc/CPAN/@INC thing is a real issue.

don't forget that we supply mp2doc which works around this issue.

> what I think really needs to happen is that there should be a common way for
> all things perl to deal with this issue - one that scales easily to many,
> many versions and that common perl tools understand. if one is developed
> mod_perl would certainly follow it. cpan-discuss [at] perl is where this
> specific issue seems to come and go, so perhaps that is the best place to
> sort it all out.

This list is very quiet...
http://www.mail-archive.com/cpan-discuss [at] perl/index.html#00023
but it's probably the best place, since all people who aren't genuinely
interested in improving CPAN aren't there.

--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas [at] stason http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com

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david at kineticode

Dec 27, 2004, 8:53 PM

Post #8 of 13 (14353 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

On Dec 27, 2004, at 7:36 AM, Geoffrey Young wrote:

> the only kink here would be third-party CPAN modules for only mp2 -
> those
> are _required_ to use ModPerl::MM::WriteMakefile (which knows to
> install
> into Apache2/ if that's where mp2 was installed) instead of
> ExtUtils::MakeMaker::WriteMakefile. while I've tried to do my best
> here
> with a bunch of modules and perl.com articles, perhaps this point
> hasn't
> been clear enough to the masses and that should be addressed.

Crap, I don't think that Apache::TestMM knows about this. How do we
make sure that those of us who use Module::Build can get our modules
installed in the right place?

> well, perhaps. I can see how it would really affect users who rely
> heavily
> on the CPAN shell and perldoc, but I don't think it's as much of an
> issue
> for people used to using wget and the online docs. so, in other
> words, it
> probably affects the casual user more than the dedicated mod_perl
> application developer. but that's just my suspicion. in either case,
> something should be done to make things right.

Will it not also affect us who build mod_perl applications and want an
easy-to-use installer to just work for people who download our
software? Frankly, I don't think that it should be fine for just the
dedicated mod_perl developer. This is one place where PHP is kicking
the crap out of us.

Regards,

David


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stas at stason

Dec 27, 2004, 9:09 PM

Post #9 of 13 (14316 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

David Wheeler wrote:
> On Dec 27, 2004, at 7:36 AM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
>
>> the only kink here would be third-party CPAN modules for only mp2 - those
>> are _required_ to use ModPerl::MM::WriteMakefile (which knows to install
>> into Apache2/ if that's where mp2 was installed) instead of
>> ExtUtils::MakeMaker::WriteMakefile. while I've tried to do my best here
>> with a bunch of modules and perl.com articles, perhaps this point hasn't
>> been clear enough to the masses and that should be addressed.
>
>
> Crap, I don't think that Apache::TestMM knows about this.

You mean Apache::TestMB.

> How do we make
> sure that those of us who use Module::Build can get our modules
> installed in the right place?

I know someone who's name is David who can easily write a patch for this.

David, it should really be:

ModPerl::MB

and Apache::TestMB should use it. Of course ModPerl::MB doesn't exist yet.

>> well, perhaps. I can see how it would really affect users who rely
>> heavily
>> on the CPAN shell and perldoc, but I don't think it's as much of an issue
>> for people used to using wget and the online docs. so, in other
>> words, it
>> probably affects the casual user more than the dedicated mod_perl
>> application developer. but that's just my suspicion. in either case,
>> something should be done to make things right.
>
>
> Will it not also affect us who build mod_perl applications and want an
> easy-to-use installer to just work for people who download our software?
> Frankly, I don't think that it should be fine for just the dedicated
> mod_perl developer. This is one place where PHP is kicking the crap out
> of us.

us == perl, once PAUSE is fixed, and CPAN clients are adjusted, it will
just work.


--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas [at] stason http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com

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stas at stason

Dec 27, 2004, 9:19 PM

Post #10 of 13 (14339 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

Stas Bekman wrote:
> David Wheeler wrote:
>
>> On Dec 27, 2004, at 7:36 AM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
>>
>>> the only kink here would be third-party CPAN modules for only mp2 -
>>> those
>>> are _required_ to use ModPerl::MM::WriteMakefile (which knows to install
>>> into Apache2/ if that's where mp2 was installed) instead of
>>> ExtUtils::MakeMaker::WriteMakefile. while I've tried to do my best here
>>> with a bunch of modules and perl.com articles, perhaps this point hasn't
>>> been clear enough to the masses and that should be addressed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Crap, I don't think that Apache::TestMM knows about this.
>
>
> You mean Apache::TestMB.
>
>> How do we make sure that those of us who use Module::Build can get our
>> modules installed in the right place?
>
>
> I know someone who's name is David who can easily write a patch for this.
>
> David, it should really be:
>
> ModPerl::MB
>
> and Apache::TestMB should use it. Of course ModPerl::MB doesn't exist yet.

Wait, what this has to do with Apache-Test at all? It should be
ModPerl::MB (like ModPerl::MM).

Or did you mean that Apache::TestMB doesn't try to load Apache2.pm?

--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas [at] stason http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com

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david at kineticode

Dec 27, 2004, 9:29 PM

Post #11 of 13 (14341 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:09 PM, Stas Bekman wrote:

> You mean Apache::TestMB.

Yeah, that ole thing. :-)

> I know someone who's name is David who can easily write a patch for
> this.
>
> David, it should really be:
>
> ModPerl::MB
>
> and Apache::TestMB should use it. Of course ModPerl::MB doesn't exist
> yet.

That bastard is too lazy to work on it. ;-)

> us == perl, once PAUSE is fixed, and CPAN clients are adjusted, it
> will just work.

Okay then.

On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:19 PM, Stas Bekman wrote:

> Wait, what this has to do with Apache-Test at all? It should be
> ModPerl::MB (like ModPerl::MM).
>
> Or did you mean that Apache::TestMB doesn't try to load Apache2.pm?

I haven't even noticed ModPerl::MM. I guess that would be because I
haven't played with mod_perl2 yet. Hrm...can you tell me what, exactly,
it does? It doesn't seem to have any documentation.

Thanks,

David



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stas at stason

Dec 27, 2004, 9:58 PM

Post #12 of 13 (14340 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

David Wheeler wrote:
> On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:09 PM, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>> You mean Apache::TestMB.
>
>
> Yeah, that ole thing. :-)
>
>> I know someone who's name is David who can easily write a patch for this.

> That bastard is too lazy to work on it. ;-)

Where is the bucket with cold water? wait, it's full of snow now :)

> I haven't even noticed ModPerl::MM. I guess that would be because I
> haven't played with mod_perl2 yet. Hrm...can you tell me what, exactly,
> it does? It doesn't seem to have any documentation.

I think all you need to do is to write an equivalent of WriteMakefile (and
some other bits). The rest of the stuff in it, is a painful exercise of
overriding ExtUtils::MakeMaker MY:: methods.


--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas [at] stason http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com

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david at kineticode

Dec 28, 2004, 8:01 AM

Post #13 of 13 (14320 views)
Permalink
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates [In reply to]

On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:58 PM, Stas Bekman wrote:

> I think all you need to do is to write an equivalent of WriteMakefile
> (and some other bits). The rest of the stuff in it, is a painful
> exercise of overriding ExtUtils::MakeMaker MY:: methods.

You make it sound so appealing. I can't wait! But seriously, if this is
used only for installing mod_perl and not for anything else, does it
need to be done before you're ready to convert to Module::Build for
mod_perl's installer?

Cheers,

David


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