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jayce at lug-nut

Dec 21, 2004, 2:35 PM

Post #1 of 10 (13222 views)
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slashdot php article

So, today's slashdot actually had a discussion on php problems with apache 2.
Seems like something worth capitalizing on for mod_perl. Sure, a lot of the
problems mentioned are the same one you guys have been fixing before calling
mp2 stable (threading issues, etc), but might as well point out that they are
being addressed with mod_perl, and not php :)

--
Jayce^


stas at stason

Dec 21, 2004, 2:56 PM

Post #2 of 10 (12681 views)
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Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

Jayce^ wrote:
> So, today's slashdot actually had a discussion on php problems with apache 2.
> Seems like something worth capitalizing on for mod_perl. Sure, a lot of the
> problems mentioned are the same one you guys have been fixing before calling
> mp2 stable (threading issues, etc), but might as well point out that they are
> being addressed with mod_perl, and not php :)

I won't rush to make a statement that we have had those problems solved.
We have too few people who use mp2 with threads. I think threaded mp2 is
not ready yet for the prime time. I could be wrong, but at least we don't
have enough tests to be very sure of anything.

BTW, most of these discussed problems are unrelated to php or modperl, but
will hit modperl just as it hits php.

--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas [at] stason http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com

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lambretta at inet

Dec 21, 2004, 3:14 PM

Post #3 of 10 (12706 views)
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Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

Jayce^ wrote:
> So, today's slashdot actually had a discussion on php problems with apache 2.
> Seems like something worth capitalizing on for mod_perl. Sure, a lot of the
> problems mentioned are the same one you guys have been fixing before calling
> mp2 stable (threading issues, etc), but might as well point out that they are
> being addressed with mod_perl, and not php :)

;)

i think our PR(press release / public relation campaign) should
emphasizing on "Please do upgrade to Apache2"


also, i don't know if this true, but i like the idea of mod_perl being
an Apache module more than a perl module. And i like the idea of
mod_perl versions following Apache versions. So when Apache releases
Apache 3.0 [which surely will be a major release], mod_perl3 will follow
in the footsteps. it sort of gives the impression that mod_perl is a
official professional partner

./allan



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stas at stason

Dec 21, 2004, 3:33 PM

Post #4 of 10 (12689 views)
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Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

> also, i don't know if this true, but i like the idea of mod_perl being
> an Apache module more than a perl module. And i like the idea of
> mod_perl versions following Apache versions. So when Apache releases
> Apache 3.0 [which surely will be a major release], mod_perl3 will follow
> in the footsteps. it sort of gives the impression that mod_perl is a
> official professional partner

I don't think we will have another choice.

though if Apache 2.2 will be made possible to work with the current mp2,
there is no reason to release mp2.2, unless it'll require Apache 2.2 to work.

--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas [at] stason http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com

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lambretta at inet

Dec 21, 2004, 10:56 PM

Post #5 of 10 (12670 views)
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Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

Quoting Stas Bekman <stas [at] stason>:

> > also, i don't know if this true, but i like the idea of mod_perl being
> > an Apache module more than a perl module. And i like the idea of
> > mod_perl versions following Apache versions. So when Apache releases
> > Apache 3.0 [which surely will be a major release], mod_perl3 will follow
> > in the footsteps. it sort of gives the impression that mod_perl is a
> > official professional partner
>
> I don't think we will have another choice.

;)

it would be cool if it somehow somehwhere were more "visible" for everybody.
for instance, if ASF on the menu on http://apache.org/ had a big fat checked
mark and the words "Apache2 compatible" next to Perl, Jakarta or which ever was
compatible with Apache2 (obviously many of these menuitems are not httpd-
related)

btw, what defines a "sister project" - why isn't mod_perl a sister and why is
PHP?


>
> though if Apache 2.2 will be made possible to work with the current mp2,
> there is no reason to release mp2.2, unless it'll require Apache 2.2 to
> work.

makes sense. i only brought up the version-numbering thing because i think it
has an effect for many people. something like a Windows user who's using the
Windows Server 2003 OS wouldn't want to use a SQL server 2000 if they could get
a SQL server 2003 and the opposite is also often true - a Windows 2000 user
wouldn't (nesecarily) feel a need to upgrade to a Windows 2003 SQL server.




./allan




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perrin at elem

Dec 22, 2004, 8:25 AM

Post #6 of 10 (12720 views)
Permalink
Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

On Wed, 2004-12-22 at 07:56 +0100, allan juul wrote:
> it would be cool if it somehow somehwhere were more "visible" for everybody.
> for instance, if ASF on the menu on http://apache.org/ had a big fat checked
> mark and the words "Apache2 compatible" next to Perl, Jakarta or which ever was
> compatible with Apache2 (obviously many of these menuitems are not httpd-
> related)

PHP is just as compatible with apache 2 as mod_perl 2 is. The threading
problems are in the libraries, which is where Perl's threading problems
are as well.

> btw, what defines a "sister project" - why isn't mod_perl a sister and why is
> PHP?

"Sister project" means "not an Apache project." mod_perl is an Apache
project, which is why we get to send out an ASF press release, and PHP
doesn't.

- Perrin


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lambretta at inet

Dec 22, 2004, 12:04 PM

Post #7 of 10 (12700 views)
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Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

Perrin Harkins wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-12-22 at 07:56 +0100, allan juul wrote:
>
>>it would be cool if it somehow somehwhere were more "visible" for everybody.
>>for instance, if ASF on the menu on http://apache.org/ had a big fat checked
>>mark and the words "Apache2 compatible" next to Perl, Jakarta or which ever was
>>compatible with Apache2 (obviously many of these menuitems are not httpd-
>>related)
>
>
> PHP is just as compatible with apache 2 as mod_perl 2 is. The threading
> problems are in the libraries, which is where Perl's threading problems
> are as well.

aha - hmm, if that's the case why aren't *we* worried about people
upgrading to Apache2 like the PHP folks apparently are, as seen in the
slashdot article ? IOW, whats the big difference in the mod_perl
community making an upgrade suggestion versus PHP making a non-upgrade
suggestion if "PHP is just as compatible with apache 2 as mod_perl 2 is" ?

[.sorry for getting a bit off topic here, but i'm just getting a little
bit worried that the PHP folks actually are right here]

> "Sister project" means "not an Apache project." mod_perl is an Apache
> project, which is why we get to send out an ASF press release, and PHP
> doesn't.

ok

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stas at stason

Dec 22, 2004, 12:20 PM

Post #8 of 10 (12708 views)
Permalink
Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

allan juul wrote:
> Perrin Harkins wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2004-12-22 at 07:56 +0100, allan juul wrote:
>>
>>> it would be cool if it somehow somehwhere were more "visible" for
>>> everybody. for instance, if ASF on the menu on http://apache.org/ had
>>> a big fat checked mark and the words "Apache2 compatible" next to
>>> Perl, Jakarta or which ever was compatible with Apache2 (obviously
>>> many of these menuitems are not httpd-
>>> related)
>>
>>
>>
>> PHP is just as compatible with apache 2 as mod_perl 2 is. The threading
>> problems are in the libraries, which is where Perl's threading problems
>> are as well.
>
>
> aha - hmm, if that's the case why aren't *we* worried about people
> upgrading to Apache2 like the PHP folks apparently are, as seen in the
> slashdot article ? IOW, whats the big difference in the mod_perl
> community making an upgrade suggestion versus PHP making a non-upgrade
> suggestion if "PHP is just as compatible with apache 2 as mod_perl 2 is" ?
>
> [.sorry for getting a bit off topic here, but i'm just getting a little
> bit worried that the PHP folks actually are right here]

They are right. But there is not much to worry about. Those problems
aren't modperl ones, but mostly CPAN modules' ones. Once people will
discover problems they will fix those. mod_perl2 is probably the first
real product that will give a real test to CPAN modules under threads.

That's said I think there are a few problems to solve in modperl, but we
will get there and fix those as soon as they are discovered, so again
nothing to worry about.


--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas [at] stason http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com

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frank at wiles

Dec 22, 2004, 12:21 PM

Post #9 of 10 (12688 views)
Permalink
Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:04:03 +0100
allan juul <lambretta [at] inet> wrote:

> Perrin Harkins wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2004-12-22 at 07:56 +0100, allan juul wrote:
> >
> >>it would be cool if it somehow somehwhere were more "visible" for
> >everybody. >for instance, if ASF on the menu on http://apache.org/
> >had a big fat checked >mark and the words "Apache2 compatible" next
> >to Perl, Jakarta or which ever was >compatible with Apache2
> >(obviously many of these menuitems are not httpd->related)
> >
> >
> > PHP is just as compatible with apache 2 as mod_perl 2 is. The
> > threading problems are in the libraries, which is where Perl's
> > threading problems are as well.
>
> aha - hmm, if that's the case why aren't *we* worried about people
> upgrading to Apache2 like the PHP folks apparently are, as seen in the
>
> slashdot article ? IOW, whats the big difference in the mod_perl
> community making an upgrade suggestion versus PHP making a non-upgrade
>
> suggestion if "PHP is just as compatible with apache 2 as mod_perl 2
> is" ?
>
> [.sorry for getting a bit off topic here, but i'm just getting a little
>
> bit worried that the PHP folks actually are right here]

If you're running Apache 2.0 with the prefork MPM you're fine. It's
essentially just like Apache 1.3.x. Now if you're trying to use
the threaded MPM your code might not be thread safe and/or there may
be a threading bug due to how few people are running mp2 with a
threaded MPM.

---------------------------------
Frank Wiles <frank [at] wiles>
http://www.wiles.org
---------------------------------


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perrin at elem

Dec 22, 2004, 12:30 PM

Post #10 of 10 (12719 views)
Permalink
Re: slashdot php article [In reply to]

On Wed, 2004-12-22 at 21:04 +0100, allan juul wrote:
> aha - hmm, if that's the case why aren't *we* worried about people
> upgrading to Apache2 like the PHP folks apparently are, as seen in the
> slashdot article ? IOW, whats the big difference in the mod_perl
> community making an upgrade suggestion versus PHP making a non-upgrade
> suggestion if "PHP is just as compatible with apache 2 as mod_perl 2 is" ?

There seems to be an assumption in the PHP community that Apache 2 means
running with threads. This sort of makes sense because most of the
other interesting features of Apache 2 (filters, protocol handlers) are
not available to them from PHP. We don't assume people will run with
threads, and will probably recommend people use prefork where possible.

- Perrin


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