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bluetooth keyboards and N900

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qobi at purdue

Nov 25, 2009, 7:07 AM

Post #1 of 19 (3254 views)
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bluetooth keyboards and N900

I have an N810 and use it with a variety of bluetooth keyboards as a pocket
laptop (running a Debian chroot with Emacs, Scheme->C, and LaTeX). I was
planning on upgrading to an N900 and have one on order. But the crucial use
case for me is to continue using it with a bluetooth keyboard as a pocket
laptop. A thread on talk reports that there are issues with doing this:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34872&highlight=bluetooth+keyboard

and various bugzilla entries report bluetooth issues in general and bluetooth
keyboard issues in particular as wontfix. This could be a showstopper for me
as it would break my central use case. And I would need to cancel my order and
consider buying something else (like a Pandora, Netwalker, or M1/M2).

My question is this: how difficult would this be for a user or the community
to fix without support from Nokia? Is it simply a matter of doing some xmodmap
calls or modifying some keymap file (like /usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwerty/...
in Debian)? Will it require recompiling a kernel module? (Does the community
have the necessary header files to do that?) Or is it impossible for a user or
the community to fix?

Thanks,
Jeff (http://www.ece.purdue.edu/~qobi)
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aklapper at openismus

Nov 25, 2009, 9:22 AM

Post #2 of 19 (3190 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

Hi,

Am Mittwoch, den 25.11.2009, 10:07 -0500 schrieb Jeffrey Mark Siskind:
> I have an N810 and use it with a variety of bluetooth keyboards
>
> My question is this: how difficult would this be for a user or the community
> to fix without support from Nokia?

Please see
http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles

andre

--
Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)

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vdv100 at gmail

Nov 25, 2009, 9:38 AM

Post #3 of 19 (3193 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Andre Klapper <aklapper [at] openismus>wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am Mittwoch, den 25.11.2009, 10:07 -0500 schrieb Jeffrey Mark Siskind:
> > I have an N810 and use it with a variety of bluetooth keyboards
> >
> > My question is this: how difficult would this be for a user or the
> community
> > to fix without support from Nokia?
>
> Please see
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles
>

The problem is that the generic pc-105 layout was removed from Maemo5, I've
a keyboard that works perfectly under Maemo4 and in Maemo5 only the letters,
commas and dots work out of the box(other keys also work but you need to do
very annoying key combos).
By my tests all BT keyboards are configured with the Nokia su-8 keyboard
layout, so that one should works fine (very expensive).

I can't understand why they removed the generic mapping, seems a very
unharmful thing to me, and it can make our life much more easy :) .

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org

> andre
>
> --
> Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>

qobi at purdue

Nov 25, 2009, 12:06 PM

Post #4 of 19 (3189 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

> I have an N810 and use it with a variety of bluetooth keyboards
>
> My question is this: how difficult would this be for a user or the community
> to fix without support from Nokia?

Please see
http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles

andre

Please read my post. That is not what I am talking about. I am familiar with
the above. My OP contained a URL for a thread that discussed the issue being
particular keys not working.

The problem is that the generic pc-105 layout was removed from Maemo5,

Yes, this appears to be the problem. My question is, how easy is it to fix.
As I asked in my OP:

My question is this: how difficult would this be for a user or the community
to fix without support from Nokia? Is it simply a matter of doing some
xmodmap calls or modifying some keymap file (like
/usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwerty/... in Debian)? Will it require recompiling
a kernel module? (Does the community have the necessary header files to do
that?) Or is it impossible for a user or the community to fix?

Jeff (http://www.ece.purdue.edu/~qobi)
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twaelti at gmail

Nov 25, 2009, 1:54 PM

Post #5 of 19 (3195 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

Can you please file a bug for that?
Should be a small fix for them I hope.
(I can't explain it properly enough)

Thanks!
-Tom

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Andre Klapper <aklapper [at] openismus> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>
> Am Mittwoch, den 25.11.2009, 10:07 -0500 schrieb Jeffrey Mark Siskind:
>> I have an N810 and use it with a variety of bluetooth keyboards
>>
>
>> > My question is this: how difficult would this be for a user or the community
>> to fix without support from Nokia?
>
>
>> Please see
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles
>>
>
> The problem is that the generic pc-105 layout was removed from Maemo5, I've a keyboard that works perfectly under Maemo4 and in Maemo5 only the letters, commas and dots work out of the box(other keys also work but you need to do very annoying key combos).
> By my tests all BT keyboards are configured with the Nokia su-8 keyboard layout, so that one should works fine (very expensive).
>
> I can't understand why they removed the generic mapping, seems a very unharmful thing to me, and it can make our life much more easy :) .
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Valério Valério
>
> http://www.valeriovalerio.org
>>
>
>> andre
>
> --
> Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

peter.flynn at mars

Nov 25, 2009, 1:56 PM

Post #6 of 19 (3185 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

Valerio Valerio wrote:
> The problem is that the generic pc-105 layout was removed from Maemo5,

I would have thought the solution is for it to be put back again.
Removing pc-105 is a bit like saying "we don't support ASCII any more".

///Peter

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qole.tablet at gmail

Nov 28, 2009, 11:02 PM

Post #7 of 19 (3137 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Jeffrey Mark Siskind <qobi [at] purdue>wrote:

> This could be a showstopper for me
> as it would break my central use case. And I would need to cancel my order
> and
> consider buying something else (like a Pandora, Netwalker, or M1/M2).
>
>

I too would like to see full keyboard support in Maemo 5.

But why the threats to buy a competing device? Are you hoping to scare
someone into fixing this?

--
enthusiast, n. "One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what
engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an ardent
and imaginative person."

wolfmane at gmail

Nov 29, 2009, 7:24 PM

Post #8 of 19 (3110 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

Qole wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Jeffrey Mark Siskind <qobi [at] purdue
> <mailto:qobi [at] purdue>> wrote:
>
> This could be a showstopper for me
> as it would break my central use case. And I would need to cancel
> my order and
> consider buying something else (like a Pandora, Netwalker, or M1/M2).
>
>
>
> I too would like to see full keyboard support in Maemo 5.
>
> But why the threats to buy a competing device? Are you hoping to scare
> someone into fixing this?
>
It's merely a reminder that consumers need devices that work, and work
the way _they_ want them to, not the way that some narrow-minded
developer thinks they should work. Consumers are going to go elsewhere
in droves if the major shortcomings of the N900 are not addressed. Of
course, a few of those are hardware, so you've lost a bunch already...

Mark
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peltsip at gmail

Nov 29, 2009, 8:58 PM

Post #9 of 19 (3108 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

2009/11/30 Mark Haury <wolfmane [at] gmail>

> Qole wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Jeffrey Mark Siskind <qobi [at] purdue
> > <mailto:qobi [at] purdue>> wrote:
> >
> > This could be a showstopper for me
> > as it would break my central use case. And I would need to cancel
> > my order and
> > consider buying something else (like a Pandora, Netwalker, or M1/M2).
> >
> >
> >
> > I too would like to see full keyboard support in Maemo 5.
> >
> > But why the threats to buy a competing device? Are you hoping to scare
> > someone into fixing this?
> >
> It's merely a reminder that consumers need devices that work, and work
> the way _they_ want them to, not the way that some narrow-minded
> developer thinks they should work. Consumers are going to go elsewhere
> in droves if the major shortcomings of the N900 are not addressed. Of
> course, a few of those are hardware, so you've lost a bunch already...
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Then let the markets decide it instead of your speculation, markets are
always right unlike persons.

Ossipena/Timo

igor.stoppa at nokia

Nov 30, 2009, 4:14 AM

Post #10 of 19 (3105 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

ext Timo Pelkonen wrote:

> Then let the markets decide it instead of your speculation, markets are always right unlike persons.
>
> Ossipena/Timo
>
>
Especially when the speculations are offensive without even bringing any
evidence
pointing to whose fault it is.

igor
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wolfmane at gmail

Dec 1, 2009, 10:19 AM

Post #11 of 19 (3083 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 5:14 AM, Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa [at] nokia> wrote:
> ext Timo Pelkonen wrote:
>
>> Then let the markets decide it instead of your speculation, markets are always right unlike persons.
>>
>> Ossipena/Timo
>>
>>
> Especially when the speculations are offensive without even bringing any
> evidence
> pointing to whose fault it is.
>
> igor

Yeah, I guess you don't consider market statistics that Nokia is continually
losing share to be "facts", because they don't fit with your fanboy
views.

Just to make it clear that when I said "developers" I was referring to
those paid by Nokia, not the volunteers. Nokia is the one who is
taking advantage of people who desperately want the open source
community to grow and repeatedly ripping them off, both volunteer
developers and consumers.

Mark
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Igor.Stoppa at nokia

Dec 1, 2009, 10:49 AM

Post #12 of 19 (3079 views)
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RE: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

> Yeah, I guess you don't consider market statistics that Nokia is continually
> losing share to be "facts", because they don't fit with your fanboy
> views.

In case you had not realized it yet (hint: read my email address) i'm not a fanboy,
i'm just an employee.

And market statistics are irrelevant here. You don't have a clue when you
attribute decisions to developers and _this_ is a fact, because you are not part with
our internal processes.

> Just to make it clear that when I said "developers" I was referring to
> those paid by Nokia, not the volunteers.

Again, where did you get that Nokia developers decide about product features?

> Nokia is the one who is taking advantage of people who desperately want the open source
> community to grow and repeatedly ripping them off, both volunteer developers and consumers.

This is your opinion, which is, as usual, totally irrelevant to previous my comment:
"you don't have a clue about Nokia internal processes"

Now, please, go ahead and write again something that is irrelevant to the discussion.

Possibly hinting to some conspiration or exploiting.

igor
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gary at eyetraxx

Dec 1, 2009, 11:12 AM

Post #13 of 19 (3075 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

what profile does Apple's BT keyboard use? I have a Nokia SU-8W that I
bought when it came out but am surprised to hear that they're
expensive. Are they no longer manufactured?

-Gary
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wolfmane at gmail

Dec 1, 2009, 11:55 AM

Post #14 of 19 (3076 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Gary <gary [at] eyetraxx> wrote:
> what profile does Apple's BT keyboard use? I have a Nokia SU-8W that I
> bought when it came out but am surprised to hear that they're
> expensive. Are they no longer manufactured?
>
> -Gary

I'm not certain about the profile (it seems to be HID), but many
people have reported that the Apple BT keyboards work out of the box
with the tablets, at least the N8x0s. N770s apparently require more
effort (see http://test.maemo.org/maemowiki/HowTo_SetupKeyboard).
Bonus: they work with Windows, too!

The Nokia SU-8W probably has been discontinued. You can still find
them online (see http://tinyurl.com/y93umcf), but not through Nokia's
online store. The demand for and availability of folding keyboards
seems to be waning.

Mark
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gary at eyetraxx

Dec 1, 2009, 1:34 PM

Post #15 of 19 (3078 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

Yeah, the Apple keyboard does work with the N8X0 but has anyone tried
it with the N900 has anyone tried the Apple keyboard with the N900
yet? I'm pretty sure it's HID... is that its own profile? I don't
recall if my SU-8W is HID compatible but I think it predates HID.

-Gary
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peter.flynn at mars

Dec 1, 2009, 4:04 PM

Post #16 of 19 (3086 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

Timo Pelkonen wrote:

> Then let the markets decide it instead of your speculation, markets are
> always right unlike persons.

And the Tooth Fairy will still visit you.

Markets are easily swayed and perverted.

People -- especially experts with good judgment -- are right much more
often than markets.

///Peter
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peltsip at gmail

Dec 1, 2009, 9:37 PM

Post #17 of 19 (3067 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

2009/12/2 Peter Flynn <peter.flynn [at] mars>

> Timo Pelkonen wrote:
>
> > Then let the markets decide it instead of your speculation, markets are
> > always right unlike persons.
>
> And the Tooth Fairy will still visit you.
>
> Markets are easily swayed and perverted.
>
> People -- especially experts with good judgment -- are right much more
> often than markets.
>
> ///Peter
>
>
But even when perverted, markets are still right. Can you buy something at a
price that is opposite to market prices(without fraud)? Or does somebody
force you to buy overpriced goods against your own will?

Didn't you ever notice that people == markets?

ps. I'd like to have some sources to your claim that experts are right much
more than markets... So you mean that a group of people ("experts with good
judgement") doesn't make a single mistake in couple years?

Lets stop here, this will go straight from maemo-users into economics in 2
seconds.

Ossipena / Timo

xavier.bestel at free

Dec 2, 2009, 2:13 AM

Post #18 of 19 (3034 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 07:37 +0200, Timo Pelkonen wrote:
> But even when perverted, markets are still right. Can you buy
> something at a price that is opposite to market prices(without fraud)?

Haha ! The market is right because the market price is the market
price ?
That's a sophism, plain and simple.

Xav

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wolfmane at gmail

Dec 2, 2009, 9:02 AM

Post #19 of 19 (3057 views)
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Re: bluetooth keyboards and N900 [In reply to]

Timo Pelkonen wrote:
>
>
> 2009/12/2 Peter Flynn <peter.flynn [at] mars
> <mailto:peter.flynn [at] mars>>
>
> Timo Pelkonen wrote:
>
> > Then let the markets decide it instead of your speculation,
> markets are
> > always right unlike persons.
>
> And the Tooth Fairy will still visit you.
>
> Markets are easily swayed and perverted.
>
> People -- especially experts with good judgment -- are right much more
> often than markets.
>
> ///Peter
>
>
> But even when perverted, markets are still right. Can you buy
> something at a price that is opposite to market prices(without fraud)?
> Or does somebody force you to buy overpriced goods against your own will?
>
> Didn't you ever notice that people == markets?
>
> ps. I'd like to have some sources to your claim that experts are right
> much more than markets... So you mean that a group of people ("experts
> with good judgement") doesn't make a single mistake in couple years?
>
> Lets stop here, this will go straight from maemo-users into economics
> in 2 seconds.
>
> Ossipena / Timo

So, if markets are right, you're saying that Windows is far, far better
than any other OS out there? That iPhones are by far the best smartphone?

Give me a break. The sheep that are the buying public will buy anything
that is "cool" and has the best marketing strategy, regardless of
whether it's actually worth anything. The markets are NOT right.

Mark
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