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N800 etc.

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demetris at ece

Aug 28, 2009, 9:40 PM

Post #1 of 18 (1903 views)
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N800 etc.

Hi all,

I setting off to program j2me-cdc code for the N800 for a little bit
now. I am running
the CVM phoneme_advanced_mr2-b18 (mixed mode) for runtime up this point.
But this is
a release that came about back in early 2007 and I have not seen
anything after that
geared towards the N800. Can someone tell me if they know the following?
1. where I can find a newer version of j2me-cdc for the N800
2. documentation on the device's hardware that I have not been able to
locate
3. is maemo the only software architecture for this device?
4. has anyone been able to deploy web services on such a device (either
through osgi
containers or any other container)?

Thanks very much in advance
Demetris

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fcassia at gmail

Aug 29, 2009, 3:59 AM

Post #2 of 18 (1820 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Demetris <demetris [at] ece> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I setting off to program j2me-cdc code for the N800 for a little bit
> now. I am running
> the CVM phoneme_advanced_mr2-b18 (mixed mode) for runtime up this point.
> But this is
> a release that came about back in early 2007 and I have not seen
> anything after that
> geared towards the N800. Can someone tell me if they know the following?
> 1. where I can find a newer version of j2me-cdc for the N800
> 2. documentation on the device's hardware that I have not been able to
> locate
> 3. is maemo the only software architecture for this device?
> 4. has anyone been able to deploy web services on such a device (either
> through osgi
> containers or any other container)?
>
> Thanks very much in advance
> Demetris

I share your grief and pain. But sadly, the situation with regards to
Nokia's devices Nxx devices and Java borders the ridiculous.

It could be summed up as "abandon all (Java) hope ye who enters here". Nokia
won't help you or me. Nokia is not interested in Java on the Nxx devices.
Nokia is "Java-hostile" for all we care.

You'll be told here by people whom know more than you and me that java is
bloated, that the Nxx are underpowered to run Java apps (even Java ME which
millions of phones run around the world), and that it's not worth it.

The conspiracy theorist in me would like to think that in one of those
several (some very recent) instances where Nokia got in bed with the Evil
Empire of Redmondia, downplaying or de-emphasizing Java must have been on
the table (or bed).

Microsoft and Nokia get together on Silverlight
http://scobleizer.com/2008/03/04/microsoft-and-nokia-get-together-on-silverlight/

Microsoft and Nokia bringing "mobile office" to Symbian
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/08/microsoft-and-nokia-bringing-office-to-symbian-next-year.ars

Nokia to deliver Windows 7 netbook
http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2009/08/25/nokia-to-deliver-windows-7-powered-netbook-with-12-hours-of-battery-life.aspx

I call it following the path of IBM's Lotus when it helped Microsoft get NT
into thousands of corporations by supporting Notes on Windows platforms
first, and IBM's own OSs later, or Palm shipping Windows Mobile devices. You
can't support a company that wants to see you six feet under ground.

Imagine if Nokia had invested its time and money in advancing "Mobile
OpenOffice" to Symbian and other OSs... But I digress

What I see is a company that lost its soul, and deserves to sink under. In
other words, no vision, just shareholders screaming for "short term profits
at all costs".

"They" call it "pragmatism" now...
http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/27/switched-on-microsoft-and-nokia-trade-posturing-for-pragmatism/

... I call it Nokia's management in the pocket of Bill Gates...
FC

aklapper at openismus

Aug 29, 2009, 5:38 AM

Post #3 of 18 (1830 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Hi Fernando,
there's Jalimo https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo for Java on Maemo, but I
don't know how actively it is maintained...

> On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Demetris wrote:
> The conspiracy theorist in me would like to think that in one of those
> several (some very recent) instances where Nokia got in bed with the
> Evil Empire of Redmondia

This is the point where I realized that I will waste my time by
continuing reading your troll posting.

In contrast to you, some companies out there might not have unlimited
human and financial resources to officially support every single
computer language (like Java) that you currently favor. It's even their
right to make such decisions (if this means losing some customers is
another question).
However, some companies (like Nokia) are kind enough to give interested
third parties the freedom to port and install virtual machines for any
other computer languages on their platform, while others aren't.

andre
--
Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)

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aklapper at openismus

Aug 29, 2009, 5:40 AM

Post #4 of 18 (1823 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Sigh. HTML postings obviously destroy proper quoting.

So my Jalimo comment was meant for Demetris, and the quote came from
Fernando instead.

Am Samstag, den 29.08.2009, 14:38 +0200 schrieb Andre Klapper:
> Hi Fernando,
> there's Jalimo https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo for Java on Maemo, but I
> don't know how actively it is maintained...
>
> > On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Demetris wrote:
> > The conspiracy theorist in me would like to think that in one of those
> > several (some very recent) instances where Nokia got in bed with the
> > Evil Empire of Redmondia
>
> This is the point where I realized that I will waste my time by
> continuing reading your troll posting.
>
> In contrast to you, some companies out there might not have unlimited
> human and financial resources to officially support every single
> computer language (like Java) that you currently favor. It's even their
> right to make such decisions (if this means losing some customers is
> another question).
> However, some companies (like Nokia) are kind enough to give interested
> third parties the freedom to port and install virtual machines for any
> other computer languages on their platform, while others aren't.
>
> andre
--
Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)

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sbaran at gmx

Aug 29, 2009, 7:13 AM

Post #5 of 18 (1826 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Am Samstag, den 29.08.2009, 14:38 +0200 schrieb Andre Klapper:
> Hi Fernando,
> there's Jalimo https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo for Java on Maemo, but I
> don't know how actively it is maintained...

GCC (or more precisly GCJ) can compile Java sources into native linux
binaries. Dont know if that works on Maemo, havent had a look at the
build environment yet.

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g+770 at cobb

Aug 29, 2009, 9:25 AM

Post #6 of 18 (1821 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

On Saturday 29 August 2009 13:38:22 Andre Klapper wrote:
> In contrast to you, some companies out there might not have unlimited
> human and financial resources to officially support every single
> computer language (like Java) that you currently favor. It's even their
> right to make such decisions (if this means losing some customers is
> another question).

While I don't agree with Fernando's rant, I must admit that I haven't checked
but I just assumed that, as aphone, the N900 supports J2ME MIDP out of the
box. Is that not the case?

It would seem very strange for Nokia to ship the N900 without J2ME. I know
that Apple did with the iPhone (and Google did with Android), and I
understand that decent J2ME implementations are closed source and cost money
(a licence per phone) but if the N900 is to be positioned as an iPhone
competitor it needs access to a **lot** of neat applications at Day 1. How
is that going to happen? The Maemo community does not provide that today (I
wish we did) but there are a lot of J2ME apps in the world.

Or is the N900 not really intended to be an iPhone competitor at all? Is it
just a bridge between the hacker toy N8xx and a future real Maemo smartphone
which will inherit the array of apps to be developed over the next 12 months
or so (or, maybe, even be able to run S60 apps)?

Graham
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fcassia at gmail

Aug 29, 2009, 2:43 PM

Post #7 of 18 (1837 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Andre Klapper <aklapper [at] openismus>wrote:

> Hi Fernando,
> there's Jalimo https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo for Java on Maemo, but I
> don't know how actively it is maintained...
>
> > On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Demetris wrote:
> > The conspiracy theorist in me would like to think that in one of those
> > several (some very recent) instances where Nokia got in bed with the
> > Evil Empire of Redmondia
>
> This is the point where I realized that I will waste my time by
> continuing reading your troll posting.

I'm not a troll. Trolls enter mailing lists to discourage use of a given
product. I like my N800 and I'd buy a N900 if I had the money.
I want to see Nokia succeed and beat Microsoft's software monoculture with
Open Source.

I just don't like to see it commit suicide like so many other IT companies
in the past that think they can win a short-term edge by partnering with the
IT industry's biggest monopolist. A convicted one, repeatedly, on several
jurisdictions.

>
>
> In contrast to you, some companies out there might not have unlimited
> human and financial resources to officially support every single
> computer language (like Java) that you currently favor.

It's not only a language: it's a platform.

FC

sbaran at gmx

Aug 29, 2009, 3:41 PM

Post #8 of 18 (1810 views)
Permalink

Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Am Samstag, den 29.08.2009, 18:43 -0300 schrieb Fernando Cassia:
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Andre Klapper
> <aklapper [at] openismus> wrote:
> Hi Fernando,
> there's Jalimo https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo for Java on
> Maemo, but I
> don't know how actively it is maintained...
>
> > On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Demetris wrote:
> > The conspiracy theorist in me would like to think that in
> one of those
> > several (some very recent) instances where Nokia got in bed
> with the
> > Evil Empire of Redmondia
>
>
> This is the point where I realized that I will waste my time
> by
> continuing reading your troll posting.
>
> I'm not a troll. Trolls enter mailing lists to discourage use of a
> given product. I like my N800 and I'd buy a N900 if I had the money.
> I want to see Nokia succeed and beat Microsoft's software monoculture
> with Open Source.

So? Its what they are doing.
>
> I just don't like to see it commit suicide like so many other IT
> companies in the past that think they can win a short-term edge by
> partnering with the IT industry's biggest monopolist. A convicted one,
> repeatedly, on several jurisdictions.

Well, i know MS are assholes. Probably Nokia knows as well. So does
Asus, HP, Dell and a lot of others.
Point is, MS has pretty much a monopoly in some areas. Of course Nokia
has to "cooperate" in some areas, what do you expect?
>
>
>
> In contrast to you, some companies out there might not have
> unlimited
> human and financial resources to officially support every
> single
> computer language (like Java) that you currently favor.
>
> It's not only a language: it's a platform.

Thats part of Suns stupid marketing strategy. Its a language and a
plattform. C++ is a language. QT is a platform. Oh hell, according to
the marketing Java is an OS as well.
Well, marketing aside, Java is is pretty good beginners language. The
plattform itself is nice (even if it does not offer support for as many
languages as .net).
Well, might as well get to the point.
Both GTK and QT are plattforms which are just as powerfull as Java.
The need for Java on Maemo is pretty limited.

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fcassia at gmail

Aug 29, 2009, 4:47 PM

Post #9 of 18 (1813 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Syren Baran <sbaran [at] gmx> wrote:

>
> Am Samstag, den 29.08.2009, 18:43 -0300 schrieb Fernando Cassia:
>
> >The need for Java on Maemo is pretty limited.

No, I want to be able to run Google's Java ME Gmail Java app for mobiles on
the Nxx.

It's much nicer than IMAP and better than using the AJAX interface...

FC

demetris at ece

Aug 29, 2009, 8:58 PM

Post #10 of 18 (1810 views)
Permalink

Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Hi all,

interesting conversation you guys got into ;) Thanks for the info
Andre, Syren and Fernando - I appreciate it.

I know about Jalimo, which is based on the GNU classpath libs and
which attempts to run versions of Java runtime
that are very close to the standard J2SE runtimes. However I had some
incompatibility problems with it when running
axis bundles within osgi containers and the p2p jxta platform. I
imported my baseline into J2ME CDC since I could run
the PhoneME on the N800 and things worked fine. However, this version of
PhoneME was released 3 years ago and
and any upgrades to my software bundles has issues with it and that's
why I wondering if there is any newer J2ME CDC
runtime for the N800 amd Maemo 2008.

Regarding the other Qs I had anyone has any more info?

2. documentation on the device's hardware that I have not been able to locate
3. is maemo the only software architecture for this device?
4. has anyone been able to deploy web services on such a device (either through
osgi containers or any other container)?

Thanks again

Syren Baran wrote:
> Am Samstag, den 29.08.2009, 14:38 +0200 schrieb Andre Klapper:
>
>> Hi Fernando,
>> there's Jalimo https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo for Java on Maemo, but I
>> don't know how actively it is maintained...
>>
>
> GCC (or more precisly GCJ) can compile Java sources into native linux
> binaries. Dont know if that works on Maemo, havent had a look at the
> build environment yet.
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>
>

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peter.flynn at mars

Aug 30, 2009, 4:13 AM

Post #11 of 18 (1812 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

[Java not only a language but a platform]
>
> Thats part of Suns stupid marketing strategy. Its a language and a
> platform. C++ is a language. QT is a platform. Oh hell, according to
> the marketing Java is an OS as well.

It's a language. There are platforms and OS-like applications built with it, but it's a language.

> Both GTK and QT are plattforms which are just as powerfull as Java.
> The need for Java on Maemo is pretty limited.

Possibly, but essential in my case. It's a deal-breaker: no Java means I can't do my work, which requires several applications currently requiring Java. If Java isn't available for the N900, I won't buy it, and nor will any of my colleagues in the same business, several of whom bought N8*0s after seeing mine do what it does.

But yes, for the average user, probably limited.

By the same token I could say that the need for games on Maemo is "limited"...I'm not interested in them and couldn't give a tinker's cuss if they are available or not, but I'm sure there are lots of people for whom games are the deal-breaker; hence an N9** has to play games.

Ultimately, the message has to be, don't cripple the platform by restricting it. I believe that Nokia may finally have understood this, although we'll have to wait and see if the default apps are as poor as the N800's were. I sure hope not.

///Peter

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fcassia at gmail

Aug 30, 2009, 10:08 AM

Post #12 of 18 (1810 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Peter Flynn <peter.flynn [at] mars>wrote:

> [Java not only a language but a platform]
> >
> > Thats part of Suns stupid marketing strategy. Its a language and a
> > platform. C++ is a language. QT is a platform. Oh hell, according to
> > the marketing Java is an OS as well.
>
> It's a language. There are platforms and OS-like applications built with
> it, but it's a language.

No, you�re wrong. It�s a platform AND a language. In fact in the Java 1.x
days Sun CLEARLY promoted it like that. Then the language jihad got over and
the platform issue mostly disappeared from marketing. But it�s STILL a
platform.

You can write code in Python or Ruby and run it in the java platform thanks
to Jython and JRuby. H*ck, you can even use IBM�s Netrexx and write Rexx
code and end up with Java bytecode...

>
>
> > Both GTK and QT are plattforms which are just as powerfull as Java.
> > The need for Java on Maemo is pretty limited.
>
> Possibly, but essential in my case. It's a deal-breaker: no Java means I
> can't do my work, which requires several applications currently requiring
> Java. If Java isn't available for the N900, I won't buy it, and nor will any
> of my colleagues in the same business, several of whom bought N8*0s after
> seeing mine do what it does.

Exactly my point. Nokia has a LOT to win by shipping the device with a Sun
Java VM preinstalled. But they won�t listen, I�ve been saying this to
anybody that would hear -both at Nokia and elsehwere- but it seems to me
they�re too cozy with MSFT now...

Ironically, Symbian has better Java support than Maemo...

http://developer.symbian.com/main/documentation/runtime_environments/java/

Of course, that�s because that decision was made a lot of time before the
current Nokia-MSFT honeymoon.
I bet they�d drop Java support from Symbian if they could.

FC

wolfmane at gmail

Aug 30, 2009, 3:52 PM

Post #13 of 18 (1804 views)
Permalink

Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

On 8/29/09, Andre Klapper <aklapper [at] openismus> wrote:
> In contrast to you, some companies out there might not have unlimited
> human and financial resources to officially support every single
> computer language (like Java) that you currently favor. It's even their
> right to make such decisions (if this means losing some customers is
> another question).
> However, some companies (like Nokia) are kind enough to give interested
> third parties the freedom to port and install virtual machines for any
> other computer languages on their platform, while others aren't.
>
> andre
> --
> Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)
>

Sigh... if you're not a fanboy, then any post is a rant or troll...

It's utterly absurd to refer to Java in any form as an irrelevant and
transient language. On the contrary, it is quite mature, and unlike
*any* other language is as close to being cross-platform as possible.
There is no valid excuse for not supporting it, and Nokia sticking
their head in the sand and ignoring it would be a very serious
mistake.

As time goes on, we are headed for "cloud computing" and other
technologies which require interoperability and exclude proprietary
technology. Java is the future, and companies that ignore it sooner or
later are going to find themselves ignored...

Mark
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sbaran at gmx

Aug 31, 2009, 1:53 AM

Post #14 of 18 (1798 views)
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Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Am Sonntag, den 30.08.2009, 16:52 -0600 schrieb Mark:

> It's utterly absurd to refer to Java in any form as an irrelevant and
> transient language. On the contrary, it is quite mature, and unlike
> *any* other language is as close to being cross-platform as possible.

C is a lot more plattform independant than Java. Of course this requires
recompiling and the standard C-libs arent of all too much use.
On the other hand there a lot of nice toolkits which are more cross
plattform than Java, e.g. SDL.

> There is no valid excuse for not supporting it, and Nokia sticking
> their head in the sand and ignoring it would be a very serious
> mistake.

Ok, first question. Which Java plattform are we talking about here?
JavaSE or JavaME?
Hmm, come to think of it, if we are talking about the mobile edition,
CLDC or CDC? Probably not MIDP 1.0 anymore, but even MIDP 2.0 doesnt
even have file access without the optional JSR75 and the
RecordManagementStore is a pain in the a**.
While the J2SE plattform is pretty plattform independant, J2ME often has
more conditional compile statement than old Unix-code. Top that with the
fact that many mobile applications are highly dependant on the screen
resolution and you quickly realize that plattform independance really
just is wishfull thinking with J2ME.

> As time goes on, we are headed for "cloud computing" and other
> technologies which require interoperability and exclude proprietary
> technology. Java is the future, and companies that ignore it sooner or
> later are going to find themselves ignored...

There are a lot of good application fields for Java, but they tend to be
more server-centric. Amusingly enough a lot of the modern phones dont
support Java, e.g. iPhone, Android based phones, Pre. Probably it would
make more sense to support the JavaSE edition of Java instead of the
mobile edition, devices like the N900 are easily powerfull enough to run
it.

> Mark

Syren

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tytso at mit

Aug 31, 2009, 5:11 AM

Post #15 of 18 (1800 views)
Permalink

Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 10:53:34AM +0200, Syren Baran wrote:
> There are a lot of good application fields for Java, but they tend to be
> more server-centric. Amusingly enough a lot of the modern phones dont
> support Java, e.g. iPhone, Android based phones, Pre.

Android only exports a Java runtime environment for its applications.
It uses a non-stanard Java platform (Google decided not to use
JavaME), but all Android applications are most run using a Java
bytecode engine.

- Ted
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gary at eyetraxx

Aug 31, 2009, 1:30 PM

Post #16 of 18 (1801 views)
Permalink

Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Demetris wrote:
> 4. has anyone been able to deploy web services on such a device (either through
> osgi containers or any other container)?
>

Are you asking about web applets that would run under Tomcat, glassfish,
etc? Even smaller app servers like Jetty are fairly resource intensive
but given a large enough SD card I suppose it may be possible but I
don't know if Jalimo is intended to support J2EE or if it's just a
desktop JVM. But then I haven't used Jalimo myself and it wouldn't occur
to me to try running an application server with it. The project page is
here for anyone that's interested:
https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Maemo

-Gary
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gary at eyetraxx

Aug 31, 2009, 1:41 PM

Post #17 of 18 (1798 views)
Permalink

Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Fernando Cassia wrote:
> No, I want to be able to run Google's Java ME Gmail Java app for
> mobiles on the Nxx.
> It's much nicer than IMAP and better than using the AJAX interface...

Why not just use m.gmail.com? Optionally, install the user agent
switcher from browser-extras.garage.maemo.org and change to an iPhone or
Android agent.

q.v. http://www.gtrifonov.com/blog/2009/04/08/IPhone_User_Agent_Strings.aspx
and http://www.botsvsbrowsers.com/listings.asp?search=android

-Gary

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demetris at ece

Aug 31, 2009, 2:50 PM

Post #18 of 18 (1801 views)
Permalink

Re: N800 etc. [In reply to]

Hi Gary,

not I am asking primarily about SOAP-based Web Services - example the
ksoap-osgi bundle. Jalimo
was able to run Axis 1.4 under OSGi but the XML parser they have in
there was complaining about
the SOAP messages coming in. I was not able to get the community there
to help out with this so I
have been looking elsewhere for other solutions.

Thanks

Gary wrote:
> Demetris wrote:
>
>> 4. has anyone been able to deploy web services on such a device (either through
>> osgi containers or any other container)?
>>
>>
>
> Are you asking about web applets that would run under Tomcat, glassfish,
> etc? Even smaller app servers like Jetty are fairly resource intensive
> but given a large enough SD card I suppose it may be possible but I
> don't know if Jalimo is intended to support J2EE or if it's just a
> desktop JVM. But then I haven't used Jalimo myself and it wouldn't occur
> to me to try running an application server with it. The project page is
> here for anyone that's interested:
> https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Maemo
>
> -Gary
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>
>

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