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Re: Diablo released (AGPS)

 

 

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advax at triumf

Jun 25, 2008, 1:34 AM

Post #1 of 6 (2479 views)
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Re: Diablo released (AGPS)

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, GROG! (Jeff Howie) wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Joshua Layne <joshua [at] willowisp> wrote:
>
> So assuming that AGPS _is_ included, would that be usable by an N800
> with a bluetooth GPS?

I have to agree with Josh.

AFAIK, the AGPS interface to the GPS chip in the N810 is a serial link
using a proprietary TI protocol. AGPS is intended for use in cellphones
so it's unlikely to be implemented in a standalone device.

Hmm, just installed Diablo. No network traffic when starting wayfinder
map - I thought the AGPS patch was going to look for an ephemeris online.

Hmm... as per
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=186839&postcount=641
there's an app agps-ui beta from
http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/certified/pool/diablo/user/a/agps-ui/
It uses supl-daemon to download something from
https://supl.nokia.com:7275

Not sure at this point what effect this has - I'm indoors with too weak
a satellite signal to get a fix. Looks interesting ... certainly agps-ui
lets you choose your estimated position.

--
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada
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fred at crozat

Jun 25, 2008, 1:42 AM

Post #2 of 6 (2437 views)
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Re: Diablo released (AGPS) [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Andrew Daviel <advax [at] triumf> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, GROG! (Jeff Howie) wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Joshua Layne <joshua [at] willowisp> wrote:
>>
>> So assuming that AGPS _is_ included, would that be usable by an N800
>> with a bluetooth GPS?
>
> I have to agree with Josh.
>
> AFAIK, the AGPS interface to the GPS chip in the N810 is a serial link
> using a proprietary TI protocol. AGPS is intended for use in cellphones
> so it's unlikely to be implemented in a standalone device.
>
> Hmm, just installed Diablo. No network traffic when starting wayfinder
> map - I thought the AGPS patch was going to look for an ephemeris online.

It is, but you have to enable AGPS and Packet data in agps-ui program,
after installing it..

Moreover, this feature is available for all GPS applications on n810,
not only Maps.

--
Frederic Crozat
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nils.faerber at kernelconcepts

Jun 25, 2008, 1:47 AM

Post #3 of 6 (2444 views)
Permalink
Re: Diablo released (AGPS) [In reply to]

Andrew Daviel schrieb:
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, GROG! (Jeff Howie) wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Joshua Layne <joshua [at] willowisp> wrote:
>> So assuming that AGPS _is_ included, would that be usable by an N800
>> with a bluetooth GPS?
>
> I have to agree with Josh.
>
> AFAIK, the AGPS interface to the GPS chip in the N810 is a serial link
> using a proprietary TI protocol. AGPS is intended for use in cellphones
> so it's unlikely to be implemented in a standalone device.

Well... AGPS (assisted GPS) is intended to shorten the time to first fix
(TTF) by uploading known data like ephimeris data up into the GPS
receiver. The "known data" can also be a precise known time, geographic
region etc. Bascially all data that can be used to help "guessing" your
initial position or help the corelation.
Some cellular networks broadcast position alike information as part of
the cellular infrastructure which can be used to helpthe GPS receiver.
But this is not the only method. There are also IP network based
services by some companies providing initial data, like ublox or Jentro.
Using the ephimeris data from ublox a ublox Antaris 5 receiver can have
a time to first after cold start of less than three seconds! SIRF-III
also supports AGPS (upload of ephimeris) in some configurations.

The "problem" with AGPS is that it does not help much in the offline
state. If you do not get up-to-date information from the network you are
back to the non AGPS time to first fix. Ephimeris data is valid IIRC 28h
so you have to update it every day.

> Hmm, just installed Diablo. No network traffic when starting wayfinder
> map - I thought the AGPS patch was going to look for an ephemeris online.
>
> Hmm... as per
> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=186839&postcount=641
> there's an app agps-ui beta from
> http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/certified/pool/diablo/user/a/agps-ui/
> It uses supl-daemon to download something from
> https://supl.nokia.com:7275
>
> Not sure at this point what effect this has - I'm indoors with too weak
> a satellite signal to get a fix. Looks interesting ... certainly agps-ui
> lets you choose your estimated position.

We already wondered what this GUI is good for ;)
Choosing your region? Oh well...

Cheers
nils faerber

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bmidgley at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 6:50 PM

Post #4 of 6 (2393 views)
Permalink
Re: Diablo released (AGPS) [In reply to]

guys

>>> So assuming that AGPS _is_ included, would that be usable by an N800
>>> with a bluetooth GPS?

not without vendor-specific hacking for the specific gps. in other words, no.

>> Hmm, just installed Diablo. No network traffic when starting wayfinder
>> map - I thought the AGPS patch was going to look for an ephemeris online.
>
> It is, but you have to enable AGPS and Packet data in agps-ui program,
> after installing it..
>
> Moreover, this feature is available for all GPS applications on n810,
> not only Maps.

It's possible the agps change downloads ephemeris, but the fact that
it wants a data connection through a cell (wifi isn't good enough)
suggests that it might look to see which gsm towers are around.

--
Brad
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advax at triumf

Jun 26, 2008, 12:28 AM

Post #5 of 6 (2379 views)
Permalink
Re: Diablo released (AGPS) [In reply to]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Nils Faerber wrote:

> Using the ephimeris data from ublox a ublox Antaris 5 receiver can have
> a time to first after cold start of less than three seconds!

Now that's impressive! (thanks for the info; I stand corrected re. AGPS
in non-cellphone devices..)

> We already wondered what this GUI is good for ;)
> Choosing your region? Oh well...

From running supld on the command line (it normally runs as a daemon
from startup) :

SUPL daemon version is Mon May 5 12:12:24 UTC 2008
SLP address: supl.nokia.com
SLP port: 7275
A-GPS srv address: supl.nokia.com
Position timestamp: 1214410112.000000
Position latitude: 49.162067
Position longitude: -123.119614
Position uncertainty: 300
Previous A-GPS req time: 0
Previous A-GPS req status: 0
A-GPS support: 1
NW INIT enabled: 0
Cached assistance data support: 1
Packet data for assistance data allowed: 1
Preferred connection id: Rogers Internet
SetId NAI: JohnDoe [at] nokia
PSK EMSK:
Wimax BSID:
GSM Cell ID by BT support: 0
Debug SLP IP source: provisioned
Debug mode: 0
Debug log folder: /media/mmc2/supllog/


agps-ui allows you to choose the "preferred connection id" (it only
offered my EDGE connection), but supld downloaded data over the WLAN.
agps-ui also has a checkbox to enable "Packet data ..". I presume it
means "do you want to incur cellular data charges for downloading an
ephemeris?". I don't know how to turn on debugging (DBUS?); nothing is
written to /media/mmc2/supllog/.

I'm not sure where the positions came from; I suspect from the last
position saved by gpsdriver. It's more accurate than geosearching my ip
address.

I think that supld is exchanging data on DBUS with gpsdriver; the new
version links libsupld.so

I presume from this that some location data is
available from WiMax on the new device, and also from the GPS cell ID. I
know the cell ID is available from my
Nokia cellphone (I had gnokii running on my laptop via USB, and I built
it for the tablet), and I believe Google has been mapping
cell locations by driving around (Rogers told me the tower locations were
confidential when I asked a couple of years back).

Pointing a browser at supl.nokia.com doesn't get you far; I don't know
the path, and it may be using a client-side SSL certificate for
authentication.


I haven't actually tried this much in real life so far. From what you say
about ephemeris lifetime, I would hope to get a 30-second fix going
outside from somewhere with WLAN but no sky (like my home, or office). I
would hope that one could also take an 8-hour plane trip, then use
agps-ui to set my approximate location, and get a fix in a minute or two
instead of "never". If true, it should go a long way to fixing the GPS
woes (thanks, Zoltan).


--
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada
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bmidgley at gmail

Jul 3, 2008, 2:07 PM

Post #6 of 6 (2206 views)
Permalink
Re: Diablo released (AGPS) [In reply to]

guys

> the fact that
> it wants a data connection through a cell (wifi isn't good enough)
> suggests that it might look to see which gsm towers are around.

out of curiosity I ran hcidump so I could watch the negotiation with
the cellphone. my n810 does not get cell tower info as it connects to
get agps data, although it would be a cool hack if it did. I don't
think there is a way to do out-of-band AT commands after DUN is
running a full-on connection (so I didn't check)

the only commands it did run were...

AT&F (OK)
AT+GCAP (+GCAP: +FCLASS)
AT+CPAS (ERROR)
AT+CRM=? (ERROR)
AT+CMEE=1 (ERROR)
AT+CGDCONT=1,"ip","wap.cingular"

and so on with the connection.

probably wifi was left out of the agps menu just because it isn't the
norm for connecting while on the go...

--
Brad
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