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Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?)

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marius at pov

Dec 29, 2007, 2:22 PM

Post #1 of 31 (5348 views)
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Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?)

On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 04:43:51PM +0100, Zoran Kolic wrote:
> > If you're a new user, I'd forget O7 and go directly to 08. There's
> > enough 08 stuff for a new user that you'll spend a week or more
> > exploring all that's available, and by then, even more stuff will be
> > available.
>
> A lot of useful command line tools have gone to the mist.
> Hope the same will not get perl, python, ruby...

So, what command-line tools do you miss? I've got an idle scratchbox
here.

I've built some today (less, links, mc, wget; made vim actually
installable). I don't have upload privileges to maemo extras yet, so
you can find them only at http://mg.pov.lt/770/

Python is semi-installable on OS2008 today; for some packages you have
to go through the kitten dance[1] to avoid broken CDN proxies.

[1] The kitten dance is this (needs root):

cd /var/cache/apt/archives
sudo apt-get install whateveryouwant
see which URLs failed with a size mismatch error
sudo wget -O package-filename-version.deb http://url/from/above?kitten
for every URL that couldn't be downloaded normally, append
?kittens and save here under the normal filename
sudo apt-get install whateveryouwant
actually install stuff

Credit goes to sp3000 on #maemo for the idea.

Marius Gedminas
--
If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
-- Albert Einstein

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peter at silmaril

Dec 29, 2007, 4:10 PM

Post #2 of 31 (5249 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

Marius Gedminas wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 04:43:51PM +0100, Zoran Kolic wrote:
>>> If you're a new user, I'd forget O7 and go directly to 08. There's
>>> enough 08 stuff for a new user that you'll spend a week or more
>>> exploring all that's available, and by then, even more stuff will be
>>> available.
>> A lot of useful command line tools have gone to the mist.
>> Hope the same will not get perl, python, ruby...
>
> So, what command-line tools do you miss? I've got an idle scratchbox
> here.

ping and traceroute would be useful.

///Peter
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james.knott at rogers

Dec 29, 2007, 4:23 PM

Post #3 of 31 (5236 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

Peter Flynn wrote:
> Marius Gedminas wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 04:43:51PM +0100, Zoran Kolic wrote:
>>
>>>> If you're a new user, I'd forget O7 and go directly to 08. There's
>>>> enough 08 stuff for a new user that you'll spend a week or more
>>>> exploring all that's available, and by then, even more stuff will be
>>>> available.
>>>>
>>> A lot of useful command line tools have gone to the mist.
>>> Hope the same will not get perl, python, ruby...
>>>
>> So, what command-line tools do you miss? I've got an idle scratchbox
>> here.
>>
>
> ping and traceroute would be useful.
>
>

Ping is there, but you have to be root to use it.

--
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zkolic at sbb

Dec 29, 2007, 10:34 PM

Post #4 of 31 (5244 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

> > A lot of useful command line tools have gone to the mist.
> > Hope the same will not get perl, python, ruby...
>
> So, what command-line tools do you miss? I've got an idle scratchbox
> here.

None. I still have my 770 and it works fine. I made a mistake
and said my word or two about trend in device making. I am bsd
user and having dedicated box just for few apps is no go to me.
Sorry for the noise.

> I've built some today (less, links, mc, wget; made vim actually
> installable). I don't have upload privileges to maemo extras yet, so
> you can find them only at http://mg.pov.lt/770/

Huts down! Ten point for you!

> Python is semi-installable on OS2008 today; for some packages you have
> to go through the kitten dance[1] to avoid broken CDN proxies.

Broken repository is a shame. And 2-3 weeks of broken repository
is something I cannot say on the list.

> [1] The kitten dance is this (needs root):

I put all files in the same directory and it goes well.
I found your answers very helpfull. So thank you for the sake od
maemo users.

Zoran

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hendrik at topoi

Dec 30, 2007, 6:50 AM

Post #5 of 31 (5227 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 07:23:15PM -0500, James Knott wrote:
> Peter Flynn wrote:
> > Marius Gedminas wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 04:43:51PM +0100, Zoran Kolic wrote:
> >>
> >>>> If you're a new user, I'd forget O7 and go directly to 08. There's
> >>>> enough 08 stuff for a new user that you'll spend a week or more
> >>>> exploring all that's available, and by then, even more stuff will be
> >>>> available.
> >>>>
> >>> A lot of useful command line tools have gone to the mist.
> >>> Hope the same will not get perl, python, ruby...
> >>>
> >> So, what command-line tools do you miss? I've got an idle scratchbox
> >> here.
> >>
> >
> > ping and traceroute would be useful.
> >
> >
>
> Ping is there, but you have to be root to use it.

That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
necessary is itself a security problem.

-- hendrik
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tuomas at kulve

Dec 30, 2007, 7:03 AM

Post #6 of 31 (5242 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

hendrik [at] topoi wrote:

> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
> necessary is itself a security problem.

Ping seems to be setuid root on my debian. So it's run as root here too.

--
Tuomas

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james.knott at rogers

Dec 30, 2007, 7:09 AM

Post #7 of 31 (5237 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
>> Ping is there, but you have to be root to use it.
>>
>
> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
> necessary is itself a security problem.
>
>

I have no idea, but I've come across a few things in the N800 that cause
me to question someone's decisions.

--
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james.knott at rogers

Dec 30, 2007, 7:13 AM

Post #8 of 31 (5235 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

Tuomas Kulve wrote:
> hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
>
>
>> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
>> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
>> necessary is itself a security problem.
>>
>
> Ping seems to be setuid root on my debian. So it's run as root here too.
>
>

Other than my N800, I have never experienced having to be root to ping.
It is a useful user level diagnostic. Imaging someone providing user
support in a large corporation, as I have done. A user cannot connect
to something. You talk them through various tests they can do, to help
isolate a problem. One of the tools to use is ping. Another is
traceroute. I pity the support person, who doesn't have those available.

--
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zkolic at sbb

Dec 30, 2007, 7:44 AM

Post #9 of 31 (5224 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

> > That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
> > mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
> > necessary is itself a security problem.
>
> I have no idea, but I've come across a few things in the N800 that cause
> me to question someone's decisions.

I do understand that device was intended for "non-geeks"
in mind, whatever it means. But, this sudo puzzle is more
to worry about. I think having user and root is better
than splitted privs for mundane things. The very principles
are changed and a lot of people just cannot find the way
out. Take a look at subjects on this list. Never found on
any mailing list for "normal" os. I see eee was made the
same way. Luckily, customized debian project, eeeos, just
goes the "debian" way, with all regular, obvious functions.
And nobody cares if zillion games/medias/sounds show up;
the problem is if someone wants firewall or to change privs
for underground processes.

Zoran

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krischan.keitsch at alumni

Dec 30, 2007, 8:03 AM

Post #10 of 31 (5240 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

> I've built some today (less, links, mc, wget; made vim actually
> installable). I don't have upload privileges to maemo extras yet, so
> you can find them only at http://mg.pov.lt/770/
>
...
>
> Marius Gedminas

Hi Marius,

thanks for providing "mc". That makes remote working on the device much more
convenient (at least for me ;-)

Happy new year to you and the community

Best regards
Krischan

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peter at silmaril

Dec 30, 2007, 8:10 AM

Post #11 of 31 (5236 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

Tuomas Kulve wrote:
> hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
>
>> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
>> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
>> necessary is itself a security problem.
>
> Ping seems to be setuid root on my debian. So it's run as root here too.

That's because 'debianite' is an anagram of 'anal-retentive'
(well, it's not, but it ought to be :-)

A Debian contributor once told me that all utilities which access the
network should be root-privileged because otherwise they would allow
ordinary users to know of (or detect) the existence of other machines,
which might be a security breach.

///Peter
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ayrjola at nospam

Dec 30, 2007, 8:18 AM

Post #12 of 31 (5240 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps [In reply to]

hendrik [at] topoi writes:

> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
> necessary is itself a security problem.

I guess ping requires root, because it's not a separate binary but
included in busybox. /bin/ping is just a symlink to /bin/busybox,
which is not setuid root, for obvious reasons.

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tuukka.tolvanen at gmail

Dec 30, 2007, 8:49 AM

Post #13 of 31 (5240 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

Peter Flynn wrote:
> Tuomas Kulve wrote:
>> hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
>>
>>> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
>>> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
>>> necessary is itself a security problem.
>> Ping seems to be setuid root on my debian. So it's run as root here too.
>
> That's because 'debianite' is an anagram of 'anal-retentive'
> (well, it's not, but it ought to be :-)

Here's some hints for why that might not be the reason for a debian
ping's setuidness, plus why changing the itos in this regard could
require jumping through some extra hoops:

a-random-debian-machine$ cp /bin/ping not-setuid-ping
a-random-debian-machine$ ./not-setuid-ping -c 1 maemo.org
ping: icmp open socket: Operation not permitted

Nokia-N800-50-2:~# ls -l /bin/ping
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Dec 11 17:41 /bin/ping -> busybox

't.
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james.knott at rogers

Dec 30, 2007, 9:13 AM

Post #14 of 31 (5252 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps [In reply to]

Ari Yrj�l� wrote:
> hendrik [at] topoi writes:
>
>
>> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
>> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
>> necessary is itself a security problem.
>>
>
> I guess ping requires root, because it's not a separate binary but
> included in busybox. /bin/ping is just a symlink to /bin/busybox,
> which is not setuid root, for obvious reasons.
>
>

Others, such as vi and pwd also link to busybox, but can still be run by
user.

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hendrik at topoi

Dec 30, 2007, 9:42 AM

Post #15 of 31 (5235 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 05:03:42PM +0200, Tuomas Kulve wrote:
> hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
>
> > That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
> > mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
> > necessary is itself a security problem.
>
> Ping seems to be setuid root on my debian. So it's run as root here too.

There's a big difference between setuid root ahd having to be root.
I presume ping can handle its own security issues and ping properly and
unobjectionably. But if I have to become root before executing ping,
there's a whole load of trouble I can get into by forgetting the stop
being root after I've run ping. Not to mention that I might be a
know-little user who can't be trusted with full root access. Who might
know just enough to get into serious trouble but not enough not to.

-- hendrik

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tuomas at kulve

Dec 30, 2007, 9:54 AM

Post #16 of 31 (5237 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

hendrik [at] topoi wrote:

> There's a big difference between setuid root ahd having to be root.

Ping is just a link to busybox and setting busybox as setuid wouldn't
probably be a good solution either.

--
Tuomas

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james.knott at rogers

Dec 30, 2007, 10:03 AM

Post #17 of 31 (5234 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

Tuomas Kulve wrote:
> hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
>
>
>> There's a big difference between setuid root ahd having to be root.
>>
>
> Ping is just a link to busybox and setting busybox as setuid wouldn't
> probably be a good solution either.
>
>

So are vi and pwd, but they both work, without being root.

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inode0 at gmail

Dec 30, 2007, 10:09 AM

Post #18 of 31 (5235 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps [In reply to]

On Dec 30, 2007 11:13 AM, James Knott <james.knott [at] rogers> wrote:
> Ari Yrj�l� wrote:
> > hendrik [at] topoi writes:
> >
> >
> >> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
> >> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
> >> necessary is itself a security problem.
> >>
> >
> > I guess ping requires root, because it's not a separate binary but
> > included in busybox. /bin/ping is just a symlink to /bin/busybox,
> > which is not setuid root, for obvious reasons.
> >
> >
>
> Others, such as vi and pwd also link to busybox, but can still be run by
> user.

vi and pwd do not require the use of raw sockets.

John
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marius at pov

Dec 30, 2007, 10:15 AM

Post #19 of 31 (5248 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 07:54:44PM +0200, Tuomas Kulve wrote:
> hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
>
> > There's a big difference between setuid root ahd having to be root.
>
> Ping is just a link to busybox and setting busybox as setuid wouldn't
> probably be a good solution either.

How about a /usr/bin/ping like this

#!/bin/sh
exec /usr/bin/sudo /bin/ping "$@"

with

user ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/bin/ping

in /etc/sudoers?

In the default $PATH /usr/bin comes before /bin, so it would work.

Marius Gedminas
--
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-- Linus Torvalds

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marius at pov

Dec 30, 2007, 10:46 AM

Post #20 of 31 (5226 views)
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Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 12:10:27AM +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:
> Marius Gedminas wrote:
> > So, what command-line tools do you miss? I've got an idle scratchbox
> > here.
>
> ping and traceroute would be useful.

Here you are:

http://mg.pov.lt/770/ping.install
http://mg.pov.lt/770/traceroute.install

Both were tested and both work on chinook. I haven't tested the bora
and mistral versions (that's the problem with having only one tablet and
there being no full-hardware emulator).

Cheers!
Marius Gedminas
--
I used to be an agnostic, but now I'm not so sure.

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gmane at nmacleod

Dec 30, 2007, 12:46 PM

Post #21 of 31 (5222 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

Marius Gedminas wrote:
>
> I've built some today (less, links, mc, wget; made vim actually
> installable). I don't have upload privileges to maemo extras yet, so
> you can find them only at http://mg.pov.lt/770/
>

Just to say that wget, less and traceroute are already available in repos[i]tory.maemo.org for chinook and bora.

links is also present in r.m.o for chinook (but not bora).

I've installed wget, traceroute and links from r.m.o chinook and they all seem fine.

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steveg at moregruel

Dec 30, 2007, 2:06 PM

Post #22 of 31 (5228 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

According to <hendrik [at] topoi>:
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 07:23:15PM -0500, James Knott wrote:
> >
> > Ping is there, but you have to be root to use it.
>
> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that would
> mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use root when not
> necessary is itself a security problem.

Ping is root-only not because the actual ping function is a security
issue, but because you have to open a raw socket to send ICMP packets,
which *is* a security issue. Making ping suidroot is a reasonable
solution, but not when it's a link to busybox.

Steve
--
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world. -- seen on the net

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marius at pov

Dec 31, 2007, 12:45 AM

Post #23 of 31 (5227 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 08:46:45PM +0000, Neil MacLeod wrote:
> Marius Gedminas wrote:
> >
> > I've built some today (less, links, mc, wget; made vim actually
> > installable). I don't have upload privileges to maemo extras yet, so
> > you can find them only at http://mg.pov.lt/770/
>
> Just to say that wget, less and traceroute are already available in
> repos[i]tory.maemo.org for chinook and bora.
>
> links is also present in r.m.o for chinook (but not bora).
>
> I've installed wget, traceroute and links from r.m.o chinook and they all seem fine.

*nod*

This time I decided not to add the SDK repository on the actual device.
The packages I've built are actually from sources taken from
repository.maemo.org. I also changed the Section: field to make them
visible in the application manager.

Marius Gedminas
--
As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error.
-- Weisert

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james at linuxrebel

Jan 1, 2008, 11:42 PM

Post #24 of 31 (5208 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

On Sunday 30 December 2007 06:50:05 am hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 07:23:15PM -0500, James Knott wrote:
> > Peter Flynn wrote:
> > > Marius Gedminas wrote:
> > >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 04:43:51PM +0100, Zoran Kolic wrote:
> > >>>> If you're a new user, I'd forget O7 and go directly to
> > >>>> 08. There's enough 08 stuff for a new user that you'll
> > >>>> spend a week or more exploring all that's available, and by
> > >>>> then, even more stuff will be available.
> > >>>
> > >>> A lot of useful command line tools have gone to the mist.
> > >>> Hope the same will not get perl, python, ruby...
> > >>
> > >> So, what command-line tools do you miss? I've got an idle
> > >> scratchbox here.
> > >
> > > ping and traceroute would be useful.
> >
> > Ping is there, but you have to be root to use it.
>
> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping that
> would mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people to use
> root when not necessary is itself a security problem.
>
> -- hendrik

Hendrik,

Actually ping requires root on all systems. Since in order to do
icmp you need to put the nic into a different mode than it runs in
normally. The way it is normally done on every other linux distro is
to do (as root)

chmod u+s /usr/bin/ping (or /bin/ping on busybox enabled systems)

This will, yes, set ping as setuid root. If you look at any other
Linux you see that they all run ping setuid root.

James
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james at linuxrebel

Jan 1, 2008, 11:46 PM

Post #25 of 31 (5202 views)
Permalink

Re: Missing OS2008 cmdline apps (was Re: how to install OS2007?) [In reply to]

On Sunday 30 December 2007 08:10:39 am Peter Flynn wrote:
> Tuomas Kulve wrote:
> > hendrik [at] topoi wrote:
> >> That's bizarre. What security implications are there in ping
> >> that would mean it has to be run only by root? Forcing people
> >> to use root when not necessary is itself a security problem.
> >
> > Ping seems to be setuid root on my debian. So it's run as root
> > here too.
>
> That's because 'debianite' is an anagram of 'anal-retentive'
> (well, it's not, but it ought to be :-)
>
> A Debian contributor once told me that all utilities which access
> the network should be root-privileged because otherwise they would
> allow ordinary users to know of (or detect) the existence of other
> machines, which might be a security breach.
>
> ///Peter

Peter don't believe everything they tell you. They tend to blow their
fair share of sunshine *grin* But seriously. Even Debian has to run
it setuid root. As in order to ping you have to modify the nic's run
mode.

James
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