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WLAN Power Save Mode timeout

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Kalle.Valo at nokia

Feb 20, 2007, 1:55 AM

Post #1 of 26 (13718 views)
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WLAN Power Save Mode timeout

WLAN has a feature called Power Save Mode (PSM), which saves a lot of
power. The timeout for going to PSM can be configured for N800 using a
gconf key. Here's an example how to change the timeout to 200 ms:

gconftool-2 --set --type int '/system/osso/connectivity/IAP/wlan_sleep_timeout' '200'

The new setting will be used during the next WLAN connection
establishment. If you want to use the default value again (currently
1000 ms), just unset the key:

gconftool-2 --unset '/system/osso/connectivity/IAP/wlan_sleep_timeout'

Unfortunately not all WLAN Access Points support PSM properly. So
reducing this timeout might create problems with certain APs. But I
would like to get feedback about this, so do test shorter sleep
timeouts if possible. I would recommend trying 200 ms first. That
would save a lot of power but still it shouldn't slow down normal
usage that much.

If you have tested different timeouts, please send me feedback if it
works or not. Include the make and model of the AP used for testing,
and a small description of the problem. This would be really helpful
for us to see what kind of problems there still are with WLAN PSM.

--
Kalle Valo

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maemo.org at bobpaul

Feb 20, 2007, 2:21 AM

Post #2 of 26 (13661 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

On 2/20/07, Kalle Valo <Kalle.Valo [at] nokia> wrote:
>
> WLAN has a feature called Power Save Mode (PSM), which saves a lot of
> power. The timeout for going to PSM can be configured for N800 using a
> gconf key.

Could you maybe provide a quick layperson's explanation of what setting PSM
Timeout, ie how it saves battery power[1]? A technical explanation or link
to a more technical explanation would also be neat, but the simple
explanation should satisfy most of us and provide a research starting point
if we desire to go more in depth. Google didn't seem to know a whole lot
about it off hand, but I figure you probably do.

--Paul

Kalle.Valo at nokia

Feb 20, 2007, 5:49 AM

Post #3 of 26 (13601 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

"Paul Klapperich" <maemo.org [at] bobpaul> writes:

> Could you maybe provide a quick layperson's explanation of what setting PSM
> Timeout, ie how it saves battery power[1]? A technical explanation or link
> to a more technical explanation would also be neat, but the simple
> explanation should satisfy most of us and provide a research starting point
> if we desire to go more in depth. Google didn't seem to know a whole lot
> about it off hand, but I figure you probably do.

Sure. Here's a small introduction, I hope it helps:

Basically WLAN Power Save Mode means that we turn off the radios
completely and only wakeup for the beacons sent by the AP. This wakeup
period can be configured by the administrator of the AP. The wakeup
period is DTIM count multiplied by beacon period. For example, if DTIM
is 3 and beacon period is 100 ms, N800 wakes up every 300ms (3*100
ms).

But because using PSM creates latency (especially if the network
administrator has configured long wakeup periods), using PSM would be
too slow for the users. So what N800 does it that it enables PSM only
after certain time after the last data frame is sent. And that's the
time wlan_sleep_timeout gconf key is used for.

For example, if the timeout is 1000 ms, the device will wait a total
of one second after the last data frame sent until PSM is enabled.
That's a long time to waste power just to keep radios running just in
case. But if the timeout is reduced to 200 ms, radios are turned on
only fifth of the original time.

--
Kalle Valo

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dchallet at onetel

Feb 20, 2007, 6:04 AM

Post #4 of 26 (13596 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 10:55, Kalle Valo wrote:
> WLAN has a feature called Power Save Mode (PSM), which saves a lot of
> power. The timeout for going to PSM can be configured for N800 using a
> gconf key. Here's an example how to change the timeout to 200 ms:

what about the 770?

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Kalle.Valo at nokia

Feb 20, 2007, 6:19 AM

Post #5 of 26 (13589 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

"ext Damien Challet" <dchallet [at] onetel> writes:

>> WLAN has a feature called Power Save Mode (PSM), which saves a lot of
>> power. The timeout for going to PSM can be configured for N800 using a
>> gconf key. Here's an example how to change the timeout to 200 ms:
>
> what about the 770?

770 uses WLAN PSM but it doesn't have the gconf key for changing the
value. It has 1000 ms timeout hardcoded. But I guess you could take
the osso-wlan sources and change the hardcoded value in wlancond.

--
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dufkaf at seznam

Feb 20, 2007, 6:28 AM

Post #6 of 26 (13592 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Paul Klapperich wrote:
> Google didn't seem to
> know a whole lot about it off hand, but I figure you probably do.
>

Found also this
http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1015781
It explains a bit more about tradeoff between speed and power saving.

Frantisek
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amit.kucheria at nokia

Feb 20, 2007, 6:29 AM

Post #7 of 26 (13590 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 11:55 +0200, ext Kalle Valo wrote:
> WLAN has a feature called Power Save Mode (PSM), which saves a lot of
> power. The timeout for going to PSM can be configured for N800 using a
> gconf key. Here's an example how to change the timeout to 200 ms:
>
> gconftool-2 --set --type int '/system/osso/connectivity/IAP/wlan_sleep_timeout' '200'

<snip>

> If you have tested different timeouts, please send me feedback if it
> works or not. Include the make and model of the AP used for testing,
> and a small description of the problem. This would be really helpful
> for us to see what kind of problems there still are with WLAN PSM.

Just wanted to point out - very low values (10-100ms) _might_ lead to
increase in power consumption and higher latency. This is because the
radio might shutdown too soon and would have to be woken up again. e.g.
Slow DNS responses.
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taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail

Feb 20, 2007, 7:27 AM

Post #8 of 26 (13602 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

> 770 uses WLAN PSM but it doesn't have the gconf key for changing the
> value. It has 1000 ms timeout hardcoded. But I guess you could take
> the osso-wlan sources and change the hardcoded value in wlancond.

Can we get the gconf key added for the next release of OS2006?
And WEP + EAP please?

--
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http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html
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Kalle.Valo at nokia

Feb 20, 2007, 11:35 PM

Post #9 of 26 (13582 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

"Levi Bard" <taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak [at] gmail> writes:

>> 770 uses WLAN PSM but it doesn't have the gconf key for changing the
>> value. It has 1000 ms timeout hardcoded. But I guess you could take
>> the osso-wlan sources and change the hardcoded value in wlancond.
>
> Can we get the gconf key added for the next release of OS2006?

I'll forward your request forward.

> And WEP + EAP please?

This has been requested occasionally. It would help if you could come
up with some kind of examples where this is needed. That they I could
show that there's really a need for this. Technically there's no point
of supporting 802.1x with WEP encryption, because TKIP is already
widely supported.

--
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maemo-sieM0 at ndap

Feb 21, 2007, 6:57 AM

Post #10 of 26 (13585 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Kalle Valo skrev:
> "Levi Bard" <taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak [at] gmail> writes:
>
>> And WEP + EAP please?
>>
> This has been requested occasionally. It would help if you could come
> up with some kind of examples where this is needed. That they I could
> show that there's really a need for this. Technically there's no point
> of supporting 802.1x with WEP encryption, because TKIP is already
> widely supported.

This is something I would need in order to access my university's
network. As far as I can tell WEP+PEAP is the only way for us students
to get online:
http://www.itenheten.kau.se/tjanster/wlan/wlanstudwinxpeng.pdf

--
Andreas Persenius
Nokia N800 user

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gary at sharcnet

Feb 21, 2007, 7:03 AM

Post #11 of 26 (13583 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

> Kalle Valo skrev:
>> "Levi Bard" <taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak [at] gmail> writes:
>>
>>> And WEP + EAP please?
>>>
>> This has been requested occasionally. It would help if you could come
>> up with some kind of examples where this is needed. That they I could
>> show that there's really a need for this. Technically there's no point
>> of supporting 802.1x with WEP encryption, because TKIP is already
>> widely supported.
>
> This is something I would need in order to access my university's network. As
> far as I can tell WEP+PEAP is the only way for us students to get online:
> http://www.itenheten.kau.se/tjanster/wlan/wlanstudwinxpeng.pdf

Likewise for any secure access to our university's wireless:
http://www.uwo.ca/its/doc/hdi/wireless/peap.html

---
Gary Molenkamp SHARCNET
Systems Administrator University of Western Ontario
gary [at] sharcnet http://www.sharcnet.ca
(519) 661-2111 x88429 (519) 661-4000
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fred at crozat

Feb 21, 2007, 7:22 AM

Post #12 of 26 (13592 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Le mardi 20 f�vrier 2007 � 11:55 +0200, Kalle Valo a �crit :

> If you have tested different timeouts, please send me feedback if it
> works or not. Include the make and model of the AP used for testing,
> and a small description of the problem. This would be really helpful
> for us to see what kind of problems there still are with WLAN PSM.

I've tested with two different AP :
-Freebox v5 (ISP DSL modem + wifi AP), which is based on ralink 2661
(802.11g + MIMO, pre-n)
-Linksys WRV54G

both with timeout 200ms and everything seems to work nicely. I didn't
notice any slowdown.

The only "problem" is to test extended battery usage ;) Since it is only
triggered by timeout on network activity, autonomy can only be gained
(and therefore mesured) this way for interactive usage (web browsing,
IM) and not by stressing network (for instance, by playing a radio
stream).

I guess it will be hard to find a good testcase to show how much power
is gained this way.

--
Frederic Crozat <fred [at] crozat>

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taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail

Feb 21, 2007, 7:48 AM

Post #13 of 26 (13569 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

> > And WEP + EAP please?
>
> This has been requested occasionally. It would help if you could come
> up with some kind of examples where this is needed. That they I could
> show that there's really a need for this. Technically there's no point
> of supporting 802.1x with WEP encryption, because TKIP is already
> widely supported.

Many wireless networks in the US, for some reason universities in
particular, ONLY allow connections using WEP + EAP (usually PEAP in my
experience). One example is Texas Tech University (
http://www.ttu.edu ), which requires all wireless devices to use
WEP+PEAP, no exceptions. (Yes I've argued with them about their
implementation, yes I've requested either WPA or EAPless access for
devices that don't expect that particular kludge, ...)

While there may technically not be a reason to use it, many access
providers are using it regardless, and, particularly for college
campuses, which tend to be so large that other access points are
unavailable, it would be nice not to be in a wifi blackout.

--
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http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html
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gmane at nmacleod

Feb 21, 2007, 8:53 AM

Post #14 of 26 (13580 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Kalle Valo wrote:
> This has been requested occasionally. It would help if you could come
> up with some kind of examples where this is needed. That they I could
> show that there's really a need for this. Technically there's no point
> of supporting 802.1x with WEP encryption, because TKIP is already
> widely supported.
>

It's a problem that crops up fairly often on the ITT forums, with students (ideal users for ITT no?) wishing to connect to US University campus WiFi - the most recent new thread appeared yesterday[1].

There are also 3 enhancement requests in Bugzilla relating to PEAP/EAP support[2,3,4].

Not sure of your sources, but judging by the more public forums, there seems to be a fair demand for PEAP/EAP.

Perhaps engaging with the people who have taken the time to log Bugzilla entries will allow Nokia to understand why there is a demand? Just a thought... :)

1. http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4835
2. https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=417
3. https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=950
4. https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1017

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Kalle.Valo at nokia

Feb 21, 2007, 10:43 PM

Post #15 of 26 (13588 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

"Kalle Valo" <Kalle.Valo [at] nokia> writes:

> If you have tested different timeouts, please send me feedback if it
> works or not. Include the make and model of the AP used for testing,
> and a small description of the problem. This would be really helpful
> for us to see what kind of problems there still are with WLAN PSM.

I have received few reports, really good, but keep them coming still.
The more the better :)

I have understood that there are web forums with quite active users.
Could someone please pass my request to the forums as well? For
example you could send the link to my post in the archives:

http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-users/2007-February/004092.html

(I myself can't follow the web forums, the user interface is just too
slow for me. I prefer keyboard over mouse.)

Also few things which I forgot to mention. Internet Radio is the best
way to test WLAN PSM. At least AccuRadio sends packets approximately
500 ms apart, so with the sleep timeout of 200 ms the device will go
to sleep mode for sure.

Also a good test is to ping from the network towards N800 with an
interval greater than the sleep timeout. If everything is working as
they should, not a single packet should be lost. For example, set the
sleep timeout on N800 to 200 ms and ping from the network with an
interval of one second (which I guess is the default for all ping
applications).

Thanks for your help, Maemo community. Greatly appreciated.

--
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james at linuxrebel

Feb 22, 2007, 11:23 PM

Post #16 of 26 (13550 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

On Wednesday 21 February 2007 07:48:19 Levi Bard wrote:
> > > And WEP + EAP please?
> >
> > This has been requested occasionally. It would help if you could come
> > up with some kind of examples where this is needed. That they I could
> > show that there's really a need for this. Technically there's no point
> > of supporting 802.1x with WEP encryption, because TKIP is already
> > widely supported.
>
> Many wireless networks in the US, for some reason universities in
> particular, ONLY allow connections using WEP + EAP (usually PEAP in my
> experience). One example is Texas Tech University (
> http://www.ttu.edu ), which requires all wireless devices to use
> WEP+PEAP, no exceptions. (Yes I've argued with them about their
> implementation, yes I've requested either WPA or EAPless access for
> devices that don't expect that particular kludge, ...)

A lot of the reason from my experience comes about because WEP+EAP was current
at the time of the equipment purchase and many companies and Universities
won't change until such time as the equipment they have as reach end of life
and they can afford to replace it.

Second reason. Because many "security" admins are afraid that if they admit
something new is better than what they recommended then they will perceived
as incompetent. Then again I just spent the day arguing with a
security "expert" who didn't want me to bring my laptop in because it is a
Linux box and their Anti Virus can't scan my system. (Never mind that it
can't scan any of the other contractors mac or windows boxes either .... )

James

>
> While there may technically not be a reason to use it, many access
> providers are using it regardless, and, particularly for college
> campuses, which tend to be so large that other access points are
> unavailable, it would be nice not to be in a wifi blackout.

--
(o_
//\
V_/_
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riku.voipio at movial

Feb 23, 2007, 12:27 AM

Post #17 of 26 (13554 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Kalle Valo wrote:
>> And WEP + EAP please?
>>
>
> This has been requested occasionally. It would help if you could come
> up with some kind of examples where this is needed. That they I could
> show that there's really a need for this. Technically there's no point
> of supporting 802.1x with WEP encryption, because TKIP is already
> widely supported.
>
>
EAP-TTLS with wep was the best *functioning* radius-authenticated
protocol supported by cisco access points (aironet 1100, 12xx). Yes
they supported TKIP and AES, but not very well *together* with EAP.

wpasupplicant already supports EAP-TTLS, how hard would it be for
a poweruser to use it instead of the current supplicant?

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dufkaf at seznam

Mar 4, 2007, 2:16 PM

Post #18 of 26 (13497 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Levi Bard wrote:
>> 770 uses WLAN PSM but it doesn't have the gconf key for changing the
>> value. It has 1000 ms timeout hardcoded. But I guess you could take
>> the osso-wlan sources and change the hardcoded value in wlancond.
>
> Can we get the gconf key added for the next release of OS2006?

FWIW just tried this with OS2007 on 770 and it seems to work. At least
dmesg prints 'PSM timeout 200 ms' when connection is opened.

Frantisek
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Kalle.Valo at nokia

Mar 4, 2007, 10:20 PM

Post #19 of 26 (13470 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

"ext Frantisek Dufka" <dufkaf [at] seznam> writes:

>>> 770 uses WLAN PSM but it doesn't have the gconf key for changing the
>>> value. It has 1000 ms timeout hardcoded. But I guess you could take
>>> the osso-wlan sources and change the hardcoded value in wlancond.
>>
>> Can we get the gconf key added for the next release of OS2006?
>
> FWIW just tried this with OS2007 on 770 and it seems to work. At least
> dmesg prints 'PSM timeout 200 ms' when connection is opened.

Really? I remember that we only added it to N800. Oh well, I'm glad
that I was wrong :)

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dufkaf at seznam

Mar 5, 2007, 12:09 AM

Post #20 of 26 (13474 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Kalle Valo wrote:
>>>> 770 uses WLAN PSM but it doesn't have the gconf key for changing the
>>>> value. It has 1000 ms timeout hardcoded. But I guess you could take
>>>> the osso-wlan sources and change the hardcoded value in wlancond.
>>> Can we get the gconf key added for the next release of OS2006?
>> FWIW just tried this with OS2007 on 770 and it seems to work. At least
>> dmesg prints 'PSM timeout 200 ms' when connection is opened.
>
> Really? I remember that we only added it to N800. Oh well, I'm glad
> that I was wrong :)
>

Just to clear possible confusion, 2007 was not a typo, I mean the hacker
edition, not regular IT2006. So if 770 uses PSM and you would need just
newer osso-wlan sources, this condition is probably true in 2007 on N770.

Frantisek
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Kalle.Valo at nokia

Mar 5, 2007, 12:15 AM

Post #21 of 26 (13485 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

"Frantisek Dufka" <dufkaf [at] seznam> writes:

>> Really? I remember that we only added it to N800. Oh well, I'm glad
>> that I was wrong :)
>>
>
> Just to clear possible confusion, 2007 was not a typo, I mean the
> hacker edition, not regular IT2006. So if 770 uses PSM and you would
> need just newer osso-wlan sources, this condition is probably true in
> 2007 on N770.

Ok, this makes sense now. The wlan_sleep_timeout gconf key is a
feature of wlancond (from osso-wlan). Thanks for the explanation.

--
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Kalle.Valo at nokia

Mar 6, 2007, 8:16 PM

Post #22 of 26 (13495 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Riku Voipio <riku.voipio [at] movial> writes:

>> This has been requested occasionally. It would help if you could come
>> up with some kind of examples where this is needed. That they I could
>> show that there's really a need for this. Technically there's no point
>> of supporting 802.1x with WEP encryption, because TKIP is already
>> widely supported.
>>
>>
> EAP-TTLS with wep was the best *functioning* radius-authenticated
> protocol supported by cisco access points (aironet 1100, 12xx). Yes
> they supported TKIP and AES, but not very well *together* with EAP.

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that Cisco APs would not properly
work with TKIP or AES. Cisco APs are of the best quality I have ever
seen. And all the EAP tests in Wi-Fi certifications are run with
either TKIP or AES (Wi-Fi Alliance calls it WPA-Enterprise, or
something like that), so it's widely tested as well.

> wpasupplicant already supports EAP-TTLS, how hard would it be for
> a poweruser to use it instead of the current supplicant?

Do you already know that N800 already supports EAP-TTLS, with TKIP or
AES encryption?

About using wpasupplicant. I think it shouldn't be too hard to use
wpasupplicant on 770 or N800. The wireless extension interface to the
WLAN driver isn't quite up-to-date, so you would have to do some
tweaking there. And of course you would have to bypass all UI, icd and
wlancond components. But it should be doable.

--
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taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail

Mar 7, 2007, 9:31 AM

Post #23 of 26 (13467 views)
Permalink

Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

> Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that Cisco APs would not properly
> work with TKIP or AES. Cisco APs are of the best quality I have ever
> seen. And all the EAP tests in Wi-Fi certifications are run with
> either TKIP or AES (Wi-Fi Alliance calls it WPA-Enterprise, or
> something like that), so it's widely tested as well.

The problem (in my case) is that I don't have control over the AP
configurations. I would be perfectly happy to use the
currently-supported WPA algorithms if I had the ability to do so.

> > wpasupplicant already supports EAP-TTLS, how hard would it be for
> > a poweruser to use it instead of the current supplicant?
>
> Do you already know that N800 already supports EAP-TTLS, with TKIP or
> AES encryption?
>
> About using wpasupplicant. I think it shouldn't be too hard to use
> wpasupplicant on 770 or N800. The wireless extension interface to the
> WLAN driver isn't quite up-to-date, so you would have to do some
> tweaking there. And of course you would have to bypass all UI, icd and
> wlancond components. But it should be doable.

If it's easy enough for a power user to do, will nokia also work to
support it in the built-in connection manager? Since we've
established that it's a semi-standard problem for IT users?

--
It doesn't take a nukular scientist to pronounce foilage! --Marge Simpson
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Patrik.Flykt at nokia

Mar 8, 2007, 2:22 AM

Post #24 of 26 (13480 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

Hi,

On Wed, 2007-03-07 at 11:31 -0600, ext Levi Bard wrote:
> > About using wpasupplicant. I think it shouldn't be too hard to use
> > wpasupplicant on 770 or N800. The wireless extension interface to the
> > WLAN driver isn't quite up-to-date, so you would have to do some
> > tweaking there. And of course you would have to bypass all UI, icd and
> > wlancond components. But it should be doable.
>
> If it's easy enough for a power user to do, will nokia also work to
> support it in the built-in connection manager? Since we've
> established that it's a semi-standard problem for IT users?

At the moment there will not be support for wpasupplicant in the
built-in Internet Connection daemon, sorry for that. In the longer run
this could be made possible, as I shall add that to our wish list.

Unfortunately we're not able to support a wpasupplicant hacking effort
at the moment, but you could start by tracking down what D-Bus messaging
there is between ICd and EAP software. EAP is pretty independent of ICd,
so there should be only very messages exchanged. It should not be too
hard to implement/emulate those and start wpasupplicant in response.
Settings are stored in gconf, and by logging debug syslog messages from
icd might give some more details (IIRC).

Actually, the wireless extensions might turn up difficult to do, and I'm
not at all sure what - or how complicated - messages there might be
between wlancond and EAP. The UI interaction messages are "easy" as they
are specified in osso-ic-ui-dbus.h from the osso-ic-oss package. They
can also be validated manually from the command line using dbus-send.

Hope this helps,

Patrik

--
Patrik Flykt <Patrik.Flykt [at] nokia>

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taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail

Mar 8, 2007, 9:10 AM

Post #25 of 26 (13445 views)
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Re: WLAN Power Save Mode timeout [In reply to]

> At the moment there will not be support for wpasupplicant in the
> built-in Internet Connection daemon, sorry for that. In the longer run
> this could be made possible, as I shall add that to our wish list.

I don't actually mean that I'd like wpasupplicant support in the
built-in daemon, I specifically mean WEP+EAP support, so that hacking
around with wpasupplicant is not necessary, particularly since you
already support WEP and WPA+EAP out-of-the-box.

--
It doesn't take a nukular scientist to pronounce foilage! --Marge Simpson
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html
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