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Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800

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Doc at DocHarley

Jan 25, 2007, 11:19 AM

Post #1 of 44 (8743 views)
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Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800

1. I like the N800 keyboards; however, what I don't like is that when I
select anything that requires the keyboard, it doesn't automatically appear
unless I take some action (usually highlighting an existing word that is
already highlighted or tapping the screen where there is nothing). This is
inefficient. Either the keyboard should appear automatically or one of the
hard keys/buttons should activate the keyboard (or at least I should be able
to re-program a hard key to activate the keyboard).
2. The N800 backup program is adequate for simple backups; however, it
should include the ability to backup the storage cards and provide some
level of compression. For example, I have two 2GB storage cards. On one I
do backups. On the other I have photos, etc. I should be able to backup
one card to the other. And I should be able to select backup of
applications, etc.
3. The N800 contacts program is almost an adequate program. It enables
one to add numerous fields; however, it doesn't have any address capability.
I don't know of any functional contacts program that doesn't provide for
including addresses (well, I do now.).
4. I do a lot of international travel and thus like to use the 24-hour
clock, e.g. 1300 for 1:00PM, 1400 for 2:00PM, etc. This is the first OS
I've encountered that doesn't allow for 12- or 24-hour clocks. I'd like to
see that changed.
5. As noted earlier, the Control Panel should, under Navigation,
include the ability to re-assign functionality to the hard keys. I don't
actually use these keys except to play a game or to re-activate the
screen/keys after hibernation.
6. I do like the sketch program and it's ability to become larger. I
use it a lot in meetings.
7. Battery life on the N800, in comparison to a Palm, is awesome and I
agree with what others have written about leaving the device on but locking
the keys. Excellent!
8. For an Internet Tablet, e-mail is a major component. Unless I'm
missing something, there is no option to delete all e-mails or even to
select several e-mails and delete them. For example, I subscribe to two
newsgroups and regularly receive lots of e-mails. In my office I scan the
headers to see which are important and delete the rest. I do the same with
the N800 except I have to delete each e-mail one-by-one. That's tedious and
inefficient.

Regards,

Nick Shaw

atmasphere at atmasphere

Jan 25, 2007, 12:14 PM

Post #2 of 44 (8663 views)
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Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

Some thoughts on your notes...

On 1/25/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw <Doc [at] docharley> wrote:
> I like the N800 keyboards; however, what I don't like is that when I select
> anything that requires the keyboard, it doesn't automatically appear unless
> I take some action (usually highlighting an existing word that is already
> highlighted or tapping the screen where there is nothing). This is
> inefficient. Either the keyboard should appear automatically or one of the
> hard keys/buttons should activate the keyboard (or at least I should be able
> to re-program a hard key to activate the keyboard).

If you tap a text area with your finger, it should pop open the
kayboard - with the stylus and you get the smaller one. If you get
the stylus and want the fuller keyboard, press the center button on
the D-Pad. You might have to set that in prefs, but it works for me
like that by default.

> The N800 backup program is adequate for simple backups; however, it should
> include the ability to backup the storage cards and provide some level of
> compression. For example, I have two 2GB storage cards. On one I do
> backups. On the other I have photos, etc. I should be able to backup one
> card to the other. And I should be able to select backup of applications,
> etc.

Agree -- would love to backup apps. After a reflash, you have to
install everything again. It's great to save your prefs etc, but
getting the apps back would be very nice. I'd like to have the backup
be something you could schedule -- on my Palm's I used BackupMan and
had it run each night at 1am.

> The N800 contacts program is almost an adequate program. It enables one to
> add numerous fields; however, it doesn't have any address capability. I
> don't know of any functional contacts program that doesn't provide for
> including addresses (well, I do now…).

Thought it was lame on the 770 and have resolved not to really use it
on the 800 until there's a more robust PIM. GPE is close...

> I do a lot of international travel and thus like to use the 24-hour clock,
> e.g. 1300 for 1:00PM, 1400 for 2:00PM, etc. This is the first OS I've
> encountered that doesn't allow for 12- or 24-hour clocks. I'd like to see
> that changed.

no comment.

> As noted earlier, the Control Panel should, under Navigation, include the
> ability to re-assign functionality to the hard keys. I don't actually use
> these keys except to play a game or to re-activate the screen/keys after
> hibernation.

Excellent suggestion!

> I do like the sketch program and it's ability to become larger. I use it a
> lot in meetings.
> Battery life on the N800, in comparison to a Palm, is awesome and I agree
> with what others have written about leaving the device on but locking the
> keys. Excellent!
> For an Internet Tablet, e-mail is a major component. Unless I'm missing
> something, there is no option to delete all e-mails or even to select
> several e-mails and delete them. For example, I subscribe to two newsgroups
> and regularly receive lots of e-mails. In my office I scan the headers to
> see which are important and delete the rest. I do the same with the N800
> except I have to delete each e-mail one-by-one. That's tedious and
> inefficient.

Agree - had that issue previously on the 770 as well. I currently use
Gmail in the browser.
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Doc at DocHarley

Jan 25, 2007, 12:57 PM

Post #3 of 44 (8654 views)
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RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

At least I'm not out in wonderland... :-)

> If you tap a text area with your finger, it should pop open the
> kayboard - with the stylus and you get the smaller one. If you get
> the stylus and want the fuller keyboard, press the center button on
> the D-Pad. You might have to set that in prefs, but it works for me
> like that by default.

I'm aware of that - the fingerpad is very cool. My real issue is with
activating the small keyboard.

> I currently use Gmail in the browser.

I may have to give that a try.

Nick Shaw

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Jakub.Pavelek at nokia

Jan 26, 2007, 12:30 AM

Post #4 of 44 (8675 views)
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RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

>> The N800 backup program is adequate for simple backups; however, it
>> should include the ability to backup the storage cards and provide
>> some level of compression. For example, I have two 2GB
>storage cards.
>> On one I do backups. On the other I have photos, etc. I should be
>> able to backup one card to the other. And I should be able
>to select
>> backup of applications, etc.
>
>Agree -- would love to backup apps. After a reflash, you have
>to install everything again. It's great to save your prefs
>etc, but getting the apps back would be very nice. I'd like
>to have the backup be something you could schedule -- on my
>Palm's I used BackupMan and had it run each night at 1am.

This is much more difficult than you think (I was campaining for that
feature too).

>> I do a lot of international travel and thus like to use the 24-hour
>> clock, e.g. 1300 for 1:00PM, 1400 for 2:00PM, etc. This is
>the first
>> OS I've encountered that doesn't allow for 12- or 24-hour
>clocks. I'd
>> like to see that changed.
>
>no comment.
>

This is based on your country's way of handling it. US/UK will get you
the AM/PM way, other countries usually use the 24 hour system.

>> For an Internet Tablet, e-mail is a major component. Unless I'm
>> missing something, there is no option to delete all e-mails
>or even to
>> select several e-mails and delete them. For example, I subscribe to
>> two newsgroups and regularly receive lots of e-mails. In my
>office I
>> scan the headers to see which are important and delete the
>rest. I do
>> the same with the N800 except I have to delete each e-mail
>one-by-one.
>> That's tedious and inefficient.
>
>Agree - had that issue previously on the 770 as well. I
>currently use Gmail in the browser.

Multiple selections are possible and rather easy. Just drag the pen over
several emails in a row. And then you can add more by dragging over
another list of emails. It supports multiple selections ;) Guess a video
with instructions would help here ...

--jakub

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Doc at DocHarley

Jan 26, 2007, 6:38 AM

Post #5 of 44 (8666 views)
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RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

Jakub,

Thank you for the information regarding e-mail. I'll try it out today. I
would, however, recommend including an option to 'select all.' Again, this
just saves the user from dragging across many e-mails. The option would
work for whatever directory the user is in such as the 'inbox.'

I missed Jonathan's response yesterday but the ability to schedule backups,
like I do with my Palm, would be great. I use BackupBuddy and backup my
data every time I turned off my Palm. My Palm died which was the driver for
me to look for an alternative. It is here that one starts to discuss what
should be included with the product and what should be a purchased product.
BackupBuddy is a purchased product and I would be willing, for a full
featured product, to pay for the same or similar features for the Nokia.
For an included product, the program should enable one to backup any files
on the device, whether flash or card. Backing up of all programs and data
should also be included. The issue of cost then moves to the depth and
breadth of the features and the ability to, for example, selectively choose
which files to retrieve, performing incremental versus full backups, etc.

Regarding 12- 24-hour time, I recommend, for the next update, you provide
the ability of the user to choose which they desire. Military personnel in
the US, for example, use a 24-hour clock as do many international
corporations. Visitors to the US may see the N800 and decide to purchase
one at a local CompUSA and be disappointed that it uses US time.
Regards,

Nick Shaw

-----Original Message-----
From: Jakub.Pavelek [at] nokia [mailto:Jakub.Pavelek [at] nokia]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 1:30 AM
To: atmasphere [at] atmasphere; Doc [at] docharley
Cc: maemo-users [at] maemo
Subject: RE: [maemo-users] Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800

>> The N800 backup program is adequate for simple backups; however, it
>> should include the ability to backup the storage cards and provide
>> some level of compression. For example, I have two 2GB
>storage cards.
>> On one I do backups. On the other I have photos, etc. I should be
>> able to backup one card to the other. And I should be able
>to select
>> backup of applications, etc.
>
>Agree -- would love to backup apps. After a reflash, you have
>to install everything again. It's great to save your prefs
>etc, but getting the apps back would be very nice. I'd like
>to have the backup be something you could schedule -- on my
>Palm's I used BackupMan and had it run each night at 1am.

This is much more difficult than you think (I was campaining for that
feature too).

>> I do a lot of international travel and thus like to use the 24-hour
>> clock, e.g. 1300 for 1:00PM, 1400 for 2:00PM, etc. This is
>the first
>> OS I've encountered that doesn't allow for 12- or 24-hour
>clocks. I'd
>> like to see that changed.
>
>no comment.
>

This is based on your country's way of handling it. US/UK will get you
the AM/PM way, other countries usually use the 24 hour system.

>> For an Internet Tablet, e-mail is a major component. Unless I'm
>> missing something, there is no option to delete all e-mails
>or even to
>> select several e-mails and delete them. For example, I subscribe to
>> two newsgroups and regularly receive lots of e-mails. In my
>office I
>> scan the headers to see which are important and delete the
>rest. I do
>> the same with the N800 except I have to delete each e-mail
>one-by-one.
>> That's tedious and inefficient.
>
>Agree - had that issue previously on the 770 as well. I
>currently use Gmail in the browser.

Multiple selections are possible and rather easy. Just drag the pen over
several emails in a row. And then you can add more by dragging over
another list of emails. It supports multiple selections ;) Guess a video
with instructions would help here ...

--jakub

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tuukka.tolvanen at nokia

Jan 26, 2007, 7:18 AM

Post #6 of 44 (8667 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

>>> select several e-mails and delete them. For example, I subscribe to
>>> two newsgroups and regularly receive lots of e-mails. In my
>> office I
>>> scan the headers to see which are important and delete the
>> rest. I do
>>> the same with the N800 except I have to delete each e-mail
>> one-by-one.
>>> That's tedious and inefficient.
>> Agree - had that issue previously on the 770 as well. I
>> currently use Gmail in the browser.
>
> Multiple selections are possible and rather easy. Just drag the pen over
> several emails in a row. And then you can add more by dragging over
> another list of emails. It supports multiple selections ;) Guess a video
> with instructions would help here ...

It's in the manual, too :) Overview / Device Control / Stylus

't.
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Karoliina.T.Salminen at nokia

Jan 26, 2007, 7:30 AM

Post #7 of 44 (8656 views)
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RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

Hi,

>Regarding 12- 24-hour time, I recommend, for the next update,
>you provide the ability of the user to choose which they
>desire.

I was kind of campaigning for that back then it was specified (when we
were making
the 770), however, not everybody did agree with me and it was not me
that was
going to decide it anyway, so it is thus the way it is now - English ->
12 hour clock
Finnish -> 24 hour clock.

> Military personnel in the US, for example, use a
>24-hour clock as do many international corporations. Visitors
>to the US may see the N800 and decide to purchase one at a
>local CompUSA and be disappointed that it uses US time.

Well, I use English language on my N93 and it does the same thing and it
is pretty
odd for me since I would prefer to use English + 24 hour clock and I
have used to
the 24 hour clock. But one can't ever get everything and it is not
possible to please
everybody always at the same time.

Best Regards,
Karoliina
http://www.karoliinasalminen.com/blog
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S.G.Pickering at bath

Jan 26, 2007, 7:42 AM

Post #8 of 44 (8657 views)
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RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

> > Military personnel in the US, for example, use a 24-hour
> clock as do
> >many international corporations. Visitors to the US may see
> the N800
> >and decide to purchase one at a local CompUSA and be
> disappointed that
> >it uses US time.
>
> Well, I use English language on my N93 and it does the same
> thing and it is pretty odd for me since I would prefer to use
> English + 24 hour clock and I have used to the 24 hour clock.
> But one can't ever get everything and it is not possible to
> please everybody always at the same time.

I'd vote for the ability to change that as even some English people use 24hr
clocks (when they can) ;)

Speaking of which, would it be that much extra effort to let people change
the individual regional settings (e.g. decimal separator, date format). I
can think of times when one might want to not have this specified (e.g. If I
were an American living in Germany I might always want to use a US style
date, but also a comma as a decimal separator). I'm sure there must be
better illustrations that that one mind you!

Cheers,

Simon

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andrew at bleb

Jan 26, 2007, 7:43 AM

Post #9 of 44 (8652 views)
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Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On 1/26/07, Jakub.Pavelek [at] nokia <Jakub.Pavelek [at] nokia> wrote:
>
> >> I do a lot of international travel and thus like to use the 24-hour
> >> clock, e.g. 1300 for 1:00PM, 1400 for 2:00PM, etc. This is
> >> the first OS I've encountered that doesn't allow for 12- or 24-hour
> >> clocks. I'd like to see that changed.
>
> This is based on your country's way of handling it. US/UK will get you
> the AM/PM way, other countries usually use the 24 hour system.

I still can't believe this bug is still here in OS 2007. It was reported
shortly after OS 2005 was released: whoever's drawing up your specs
has made an *enormous* assumption here, which happens to be incorrect.

Apart from the fact it should be user choice, the UK does *not* run on
12 hour clocks. Looking around me I see 24-hour clocks on:

* my computer
* my media player
* my mobile phone
* my camera
* my STB
* my VCR
* TV listings

I also see them every day at the train station. I probably see more
24-hour clocks than I do 12, and I'm in the UK.

THIS SHOWS A SERIOUS LACK OF I18N/L10N AWARENESS: you can't assume
country => 12/24 hour format. You just can't.

Trust me, and other UK users, this "feature" is Just Plain Wrong.

Cheers,

Andrew

--
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Karoliina.T.Salminen at nokia

Jan 26, 2007, 7:58 AM

Post #10 of 44 (8666 views)
Permalink

RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

Hi,

>I'd vote for the ability to change that as even some English
>people use 24hr clocks (when they can) ;)
>
>Speaking of which, would it be that much extra effort to let
>people change the individual regional settings (e.g. decimal
>separator, date format). I can think of times when one might
>want to not have this specified (e.g. If I were an American
>living in Germany I might always want to use a US style date,
>but also a comma as a decimal separator). I'm sure there must
>be better illustrations that that one mind you!

In general:
Customizability is very nice, but how to implement that in clean simple
way btw?
Meaning so that it does not increase
too much complexity for those who don't want to customize?

Best Wishes,
Karoliina
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S.G.Pickering at bath

Jan 26, 2007, 8:03 AM

Post #11 of 44 (8661 views)
Permalink

RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

> >I'd vote for the ability to change that as even some English
> people use
> >24hr clocks (when they can) ;)
> >
> >Speaking of which, would it be that much extra effort to let people
> >change the individual regional settings (e.g. decimal
> separator, date
> >format). I can think of times when one might want to not have this
> >specified (e.g. If I were an American living in Germany I
> might always
> >want to use a US style date, but also a comma as a decimal
> separator).
> >I'm sure there must be better illustrations that that one mind you!
>
> In general:
> Customizability is very nice, but how to implement that in
> clean simple way btw?
> Meaning so that it does not increase
> too much complexity for those who don't want to customize?

Agreed, there's certainly no desire to confuse users. Therefore, what about
one of those funny little buttons (like the "Advanced" one in the connection
settings), which says something like "Customise" on the regional settings
page (the one that lists date format, decimal separator, etc. - sorry if the
dialog name is wrong, don't have my N800 in front of me atm).

Regards,

Simon

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atmasphere at atmasphere

Jan 26, 2007, 8:12 AM

Post #12 of 44 (8659 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

You can do all this on Nokia phones... why not the tablet?

On 1/26/07, Simon Pickering <S.G.Pickering [at] bath> wrote:
> > people use
> > >24hr clocks (when they can) ;)
> > >
> > >Speaking of which, would it be that much extra effort to let people
> > >change the individual regional settings (e.g. decimal
> > separator, date
> > >format). I can think of times when one might want to not have this
> > >specified (e.g. If I were an American living in Germany I
> > might always
> > >want to use a US style date, but also a comma as a decimal
> > separator).
> > >I'm sure there must be better illustrations that that one mind you!
> >
> > In general:
> > Customizability is very nice, but how to implement that in
> > clean simple way btw?
> > Meaning so that it does not increase
> > too much complexity for those who don't want to customize?
>
> Agreed, there's certainly no desire to confuse users. Therefore, what about
> one of those funny little buttons (like the "Advanced" one in the connection
> settings), which says something like "Customise" on the regional settings
> page (the one that lists date format, decimal separator, etc. - sorry if the
> dialog name is wrong, don't have my N800 in front of me atm).
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Simon
>
>

--
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m 917.560.3000
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dave at cridland

Jan 26, 2007, 8:15 AM

Post #13 of 44 (8654 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On Fri Jan 26 15:43:41 2007, Andrew Flegg wrote:
> Apart from the fact it should be user choice, the UK does *not* run
> on
> 12 hour clocks.

To be fair, the UK is spectacularly bizarre in most of these things,
and hence runs on both.

Computers, and electronics generally, and timetables, tend to use
24-hour clocks, but people tend to use 12-hour - so we say delightful
things like "The 19:54 train didn't arrive until eight o'clock" - and
even better we won't think anything odd about it. We'll also see
nothing remotely odd about a TV listing that shows the "Ten O'Clock
News" at 22:00. But my children's bedtime is around 7, not 19:00.

I'd prefer to run the 770 in 24 hour, for what it's worth, but it's
not a missing feature I'm all that up in arms about.

Dave.
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andrew at bleb

Jan 26, 2007, 8:45 AM

Post #14 of 44 (8661 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On 1/26/07, Dave Cridland <dave [at] cridland> wrote:
> On Fri Jan 26 15:43:41 2007, Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > Apart from the fact it should be user choice, the UK does *not* run
> > on 12 hour clocks.
>
> To be fair, the UK is spectacularly bizarre in most of these things,
> and hence runs on both.

Indeed, I was being pedantic in my use of language. Perhaps unfairly
given most of Nokia are presumably non-native English speakers (which,
99.9% of the time, you can never tell).

> Computers, and electronics generally, and timetables, tend to use
> 24-hour clocks, but people tend to use 12-hour - so we say delightful
> things like "The 19:54 train didn't arrive until eight o'clock" - and
> even better we won't think anything odd about it. We'll also see
> nothing remotely odd about a TV listing that shows the "Ten O'Clock
> News" at 22:00. But my children's bedtime is around 7, not 19:00.

We're an odd bunch. Similarly, we're mostly all metric. Except on the
roads. Or greengrocer's[1] in The Sun.

> I'd prefer to run the 770 in 24 hour, for what it's worth, but it's
> not a missing feature I'm all that up in arms about.

It's an annoyance, but being told that "the UK uses 12 hour clocks"
got my back up: we don't, *I* don't, and I'd like the choice in my
gadgets. I take Karoliina's point, but it's /really/ not that hard to
do, either technically or from a UI point of view.

The same intransigence seems to have come up a few times: you can only
complain about bugs in the implementation, not bugs in the design.

Cheers,

Andrew

[1] Sorry for the grammatical error, but the "greengrocers' apostrophe" was
intentional, as they're a group renowned for their misuse of the
smallest of punctuation marks ;-)

--
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dsr at tao

Jan 26, 2007, 9:40 AM

Post #15 of 44 (8661 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 05:58:43PM +0200, Karoliina.T.Salminen [at] nokia wrote:
> >I'd vote for the ability to change that as even some English
> >people use 24hr clocks (when they can) ;)
> >
> >Speaking of which, would it be that much extra effort to let
> >people change the individual regional settings (e.g. decimal
> >separator, date format). I can think of times when one might
> >want to not have this specified (e.g. If I were an American
> >living in Germany I might always want to use a US style date,
> >but also a comma as a decimal separator). I'm sure there must
> >be better illustrations that that one mind you!
>
> In general:
> Customizability is very nice, but how to implement that in clean simple
> way btw?
> Meaning so that it does not increase
> too much complexity for those who don't want to customize?

Well, the answer for the 12/24 hour clock is simple: there's a
button to tap that switches between AM and PM when you are
setting the time. Extend that to AM/PM/24 and it's in the right
place and not taking up any more space.

For decimal and date separators and formats, one probably needs
a separate control. Nevertheless, it's easy to show it simply:

Format: $1,234.56 2007/12/31

Then a tap on each part brings up the available choices.

-dsr-

--
_.. ___ . ... _ .... . _. ... ._ ._. . ._ _.. _.__ ___ .._ ._.
__ ._ .. ._.. ..__.. _ .... . .._. _... .. ..__..
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peter at petertheplumber

Jan 26, 2007, 12:37 PM

Post #16 of 44 (8668 views)
Permalink

RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 17:30 +0200, Karoliina.T.Salminen [at] nokia wrote:
> Hi,
>
> >Regarding 12- 24-hour time, I recommend, for the next update,
> >you provide the ability of the user to choose which they
> >desire.
>
> I was kind of campaigning for that back then it was specified (when we
> were making
> the 770), however, not everybody did agree with me and it was not me
> that was
> going to decide it anyway, so it is thus the way it is now - English ->
> 12 hour clock
> Finnish -> 24 hour clock.

As someone living in America please let me put my 2 cents in for the 24
clock!
--
Peter Bart <peter [at] petertheplumber>
http://petertheplumber.net

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james at linuxrebel

Jan 26, 2007, 4:42 PM

Post #17 of 44 (8659 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On Friday 26 January 2007 07:30, Karoliina.T.Salminen [at] nokia wrote:
> Hi,
>
> >Regarding 12- 24-hour time, I recommend, for the next update,
> >you provide the ability of the user to choose which they
> >desire.
>
> I was kind of campaigning for that back then it was specified (when we
> were making
> the 770), however, not everybody did agree with me and it was not me
> that was
> going to decide it anyway, so it is thus the way it is now - English ->
> 12 hour clock
> Finnish -> 24 hour clock.
>
> > Military personnel in the US, for example, use a
> >24-hour clock as do many international corporations. Visitors
> >to the US may see the N800 and decide to purchase one at a
> >local CompUSA and be disappointed that it uses US time.
>
> Well, I use English language on my N93 and it does the same thing and it
> is pretty
> odd for me since I would prefer to use English + 24 hour clock and I
> have used to
> the 24 hour clock. But one can't ever get everything and it is not
> possible to please
> everybody always at the same time.
>
>
Karoliina,

And to make it more fun to see a 24 hour clock in English install panel
clock.

James
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gmane at nmacleod

Jan 27, 2007, 6:19 AM

Post #18 of 44 (8673 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
> Jakub,
>
> Regarding 12- 24-hour time, I recommend, for the next update, you provide
> the ability of the user to choose which they desire. Military personnel in
> the US, for example, use a 24-hour clock as do many international
> corporations. Visitors to the US may see the N800 and decide to purchase
> one at a local CompUSA and be disappointed that it uses US time.
> Regards,
>
> Nick Shaw
>

A bug/enhancement request for precisely this issue has been in Maemo Bugzilla since the original OS 2005 release (November 2005!). Three major iterations of the OS later, and still no improvement. :(

https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=303

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Doc at DocHarley

Jan 27, 2007, 6:44 AM

Post #19 of 44 (8662 views)
Permalink

RE: Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

Now that's sad.

As has been noted several times on this forum, the N770/N800 have far more
utility than, I believe, Nokia realizes. I also don't think Nokia realizes
that their Internet Tablet is, in fact, a mini-computer capable of all
manner of things. As such, its operating system (OS) deserves the attention
given to OS' by other such manufacturers.

In the early 80s, IBM developed the PC as an experiment. That experiment
met the needs of a lot of people and turned into the greatest computing
platform ever. A key partner to that success was the OS.

Nokia can either limit the Internet Tablets utility by focusing on only one
aspect and retiring older models much like their phones or wake up and see
the potential which means these devices will not become outdated after, say,
18 months (this was a comment made by a Nokia leader in another forum). The
first approach could generate revenue well beyond their expectations but
requires more care, attention, and commitment. The second will alienate the
community that is currently developing for them and that will likely result
in lower revenue and the conclusion in Nokia that the tablets are just a
niche device.

Lastly, should Nokia conclude that they want to take the path that their
devices are mini-computers with great potential then they need to alter how
they release their next Internet Tablet. Specifically, they need to bring
in the development community and 3rd party product manufacturers to ensure
that, upon release, sufficient applications and accessories are available
when the product is released. Using an example from another small yet
powerful device, the PSP (Sony Play Station Portable), upon release there
were numerous cases available, extra batteries, car kits, etc. While not a
lot of games were available, there were at least ten and there were even
some movies available. Without those, I doubt the PSP would have taken off
as it did. Another contributor wrote that, unfortunately, the N800 is still
largely a developer device. I think that says it all very well.
Regards,

Nick Shaw

-----Original Message-----
From: maemo-users-bounces [at] maemo [mailto:maemo-users-bounces [at] maemo]
On Behalf Of Neil MacLeod
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:19 AM
To: maemo-users [at] maemo
Subject: [maemo-users] Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800

Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
> Jakub,
>
> Regarding 12- 24-hour time, I recommend, for the next update, you provide
> the ability of the user to choose which they desire. Military personnel
in
> the US, for example, use a 24-hour clock as do many international
> corporations. Visitors to the US may see the N800 and decide to purchase
> one at a local CompUSA and be disappointed that it uses US time.
> Regards,
>
> Nick Shaw
>

A bug/enhancement request for precisely this issue has been in Maemo
Bugzilla since the original OS 2005 release (November 2005!). Three major
iterations of the OS later, and still no improvement. :(

https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=303

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fabienpenso at gmail

Jan 27, 2007, 6:55 AM

Post #20 of 44 (8665 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On 1/27/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw <Doc [at] docharley> wrote:
> Now that's sad.
> (...)
> Another contributor wrote that, unfortunately, the N800 is still
> largely a developer device. I think that says it all very well.
> Regards,

I agree with you on all that you said. I also would like to know about
Nokia official reply to what Sean said on his very long and well
describe article N800/Newton. I've thought about all the UI issues he
raised after 2 days of use, and I had not read his article yet.

An example is using your finger for the menu, hitting the down arrow
and see the menu moving of few pixels only. Takes 4 seconds to move
the menu to the bottom keeping my finger on the arrow.

Changing the left 3 top icons with a drag&drop way like the Dock on
osX, to add/change or remove application I use most of the time on the
800 would be a nice feature too. And a launcher similar to the Palm
(or the way iPhone seem to go now) with nice icons instead of a left
menu.

Having notification Windows appearing on the bottom menu instead of
the top right corner hiding some part of the display would be a great
improvment.

etc. The N800 is a great piece of hardware, but I have the feeling the
software part isn't as good as I would expect to be (maybe my
expectations are too high). I also know the N800 has just been
released and I don't need to hear "just do it yourself". I would just
like to know if Nokia has thoses issues on a TODO list, or if they
don't care at all (or think it's good the way it is now).

--
http://penso.info/
http://maemo.dlfp.org/
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peter at petertheplumber

Jan 27, 2007, 7:32 AM

Post #21 of 44 (8660 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 14:19 +0000, Neil MacLeod wrote:
> Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
> > Jakub,
> >
> > Regarding 12- 24-hour time, I recommend, for the next update, you provide
> > the ability of the user to choose which they desire. Military personnel in
> > the US, for example, use a 24-hour clock as do many international
> > corporations. Visitors to the US may see the N800 and decide to purchase
> > one at a local CompUSA and be disappointed that it uses US time.
> > Regards,
> >
> > Nick Shaw
> >
>
> A bug/enhancement request for precisely this issue has been in Maemo Bugzilla since the original OS 2005 release (November 2005!). Three major iterations of the OS later, and still no improvement. :(
>
> https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=303

And only two votes since then!! Thanks for pointing that out, you have
my vote.

Regards,
--
Peter Bart <peter [at] petertheplumber>
http://petertheplumber.net

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michael.wiktowy at gmail

Jan 27, 2007, 9:15 AM

Post #22 of 44 (8636 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

On 1/26/07, Karoliina.T.Salminen [at] nokia
<Karoliina.T.Salminen [at] nokia> wrote:
> Hi,
> In general:
> Customizability is very nice, but how to implement that in clean simple
> way btw?
> Meaning so that it does not increase
> too much complexity for those who don't want to customize?

Seems pretty staightforward to me. Have a "Custom" option in the
"Language & region" -> "Regional Settings" dropdown menu that turns
all the various settings into dropdown menus containing all the
options you use elsewhere for that particular setting ... and include
a time format in that list.

/Mike
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Jakub.Pavelek at nokia

Jan 29, 2007, 1:03 AM

Post #23 of 44 (8633 views)
Permalink

RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

>On 1/26/07, Karoliina.T.Salminen [at] nokia
><Karoliina.T.Salminen [at] nokia> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> In general:
>> Customizability is very nice, but how to implement that in clean
>> simple way btw?
>> Meaning so that it does not increase
>> too much complexity for those who don't want to customize?
>
>Seems pretty staightforward to me. Have a "Custom" option in
>the "Language & region" -> "Regional Settings" dropdown menu
>that turns all the various settings into dropdown menus
>containing all the options you use elsewhere for that
>particular setting ... and include a time format in that list.
>
>/Mike

Hi,

Why do you want the 24 hour clock for UK/US users? Is it just for the
clock application or do you equally strongly need to have 24 hour clock
when file manager shows file timestaps or email shows the received
time(date) field, etc.?

If you are running the UI in English but living in e.g. Germany you
could also just go to the Control Panel, launch "Language and region"
applet, set your UI to English, your regional settings to Deutchland and
off you go.

I do not see this as something that would be high enough on our agenda
right now.

Br,

--jakub

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unxmully at mac

Jan 29, 2007, 1:28 AM

Post #24 of 44 (8630 views)
Permalink

RE: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

Jakub, I'm not Mike so this is my view:

>
>Why do you want the 24 hour clock for UK/US users?

Well one reason is because as a user I want it.

If that's not enough, then I prefer the lack of ambiguity between 4am and pm which is resolved by referencing 04:00 and 16:00.

It does seem odd to me that there seems to be some specific rule implemented for US/UK times when I've lived here for 46 years and not run into any specific format spec for UK times.

> Is it just for the
>clock application or do you equally strongly need to have 24 hour clock
>when file manager shows file timestaps or email shows the received
>time(date) field, etc.?

For me, I'd say the latter.

>
>If you are running the UI in English but living in e.g. Germany you
>could also just go to the Control Panel, launch "Language and region"
>applet, set your UI to English, your regional settings to Deutchland and
>off you go.

That sounds like a horrible hack to me. And I don't live in Germany and want a 24 hour clock.

And I'm still wondering where this UK = am/pm clock style only comes from.

>
>I do not see this as something that would be high enough on our agenda
>right now.

For me it's lower priority that getting an email client that works so I don't have to online and paying Orange's outrageous data charges to read my mail. Having said that, I'd be interested to know why the original implementation is broken and on what basis the decision was made.

Andy
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pbrobinson at gmail

Jan 29, 2007, 1:47 AM

Post #25 of 44 (8621 views)
Permalink

Re: Some Thoughts Regarding IT OS 2007 and the N800 [In reply to]

> >> Hi,
> >> In general:
> >> Customizability is very nice, but how to implement that in clean
> >> simple way btw?
> >> Meaning so that it does not increase
> >> too much complexity for those who don't want to customize?
> >
> >Seems pretty staightforward to me. Have a "Custom" option in
> >the "Language & region" -> "Regional Settings" dropdown menu
> >that turns all the various settings into dropdown menus
> >containing all the options you use elsewhere for that
> >particular setting ... and include a time format in that list.
> >
> >/Mike
>
> Hi,
>
> Why do you want the 24 hour clock for UK/US users? Is it just for the
> clock application or do you equally strongly need to have 24 hour clock
> when file manager shows file timestaps or email shows the received
> time(date) field, etc.?
>
> If you are running the UI in English but living in e.g. Germany you
> could also just go to the Control Panel, launch "Language and region"
> applet, set your UI to English, your regional settings to Deutchland and
> off you go.
>
> I do not see this as something that would be high enough on our agenda
> right now.

I use 24 hr clock for everything. I would have thought having a
checkbox somewhere to choose time display option would be a fairly
standard OS option, my laptops various OS all have the option, as does
my phone and blackberry, even my alarm clock and watch does.

Peter
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