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Re: Why should it be so hard and should I even bother with Extras for fremantle?

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luca at ventoso

Nov 1, 2009, 4:26 AM

Post #1 of 5 (146 views)
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Re: Why should it be so hard and should I even bother with Extras for fremantle?

En/na Martin Grimme ha escrit:

> I think it
> would be best to have another official repository "extras-advanced"
> for these things, that comes preconfigured but deactivated on the
> device, with a big warning that apps in there are meant for advanced
> users who know what these tools are.

I thought that extras was something to avoid the proliferation of
repositories.
We might as well go back to gronmayer.com and avoid all the hassle.

Bye
--
Luca
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andrea at borgia

Nov 1, 2009, 7:35 AM

Post #2 of 5 (138 views)
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Re: Why should it be so hard and should I even bother with Extras for fremantle? [In reply to]

Martin Grimme ha scritto:

> it really looks wrong IMHO if stuff like socat, rootsh, or openssh
> turn up in the extras repository ready for end-users to be installed.
> extras should only contain applications that are safe for everyone to
> play around with.

The application manager already pops up a note to the effect that knives
can hurt you, so to speak. If you accept, it isn't Nokia's fault that
you got hurt ;-)

I'm not against your proposal, I simply feel the top issue to solve is
the discouraging effect that the current system could have on
developers: trivial changes should go through without requiring a full
vote cycle again.

My 2€¢ :-)

A.
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eero.tamminen at nokia

Nov 2, 2009, 3:28 AM

Post #3 of 5 (132 views)
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Re: Why should it be so hard and should I even bother with Extras for fremantle? [In reply to]

Hi,

ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:47, Marius Vollmer <marius.vollmer[at]nokia.com> wrote:
>> ext Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah[at]jeremiahfoster.com> writes:
>>
>>> Then Application Manager has to change. It does not scale to have
>>> categories when there are thousands of apps.
>> Yes, this is overdue. We also need a way to handle application specific
>> add-ons, like language packs.
>
> Instead of debtags, the subsection approach of
> user/network/command-line (or user/network/advanced) could solve both
> problems in one.

I don't understand why CLI tools need any specific section.

That just makes porting (re-compiling) them from Debian more hassle.

The value of being able to install them from AM GUI in addition to using
"apt-get install" on command line seems also dubious (especially
if one has installed Bash and package name completion).

Current user/* category should be used for normal, end-user visible
UI applications.

If AM support for CLI utility installation is really needed, I would
propose an option for AM like:
[ ] List non-UI/command line utilities

Then enabling that in AM would get one also categories which don't start
with "user/".

I think AM should still skip showing library packages. They should
get pulled in by the applications and utilities when needed, one usually
doesn't need a library in itself...

- Eero
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g+770 at cobb

Nov 2, 2009, 2:47 PM

Post #4 of 5 (128 views)
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Re: Why should it be so hard and should I even bother with Extras for fremantle? [In reply to]

On Monday 02 November 2009 11:28:04 Eero Tamminen wrote:
> I don't understand why CLI tools need any specific section.
>
> That just makes porting (re-compiling) them from Debian more hassle.
>
> The value of being able to install them from AM GUI in addition to using
> "apt-get install" on command line seems also dubious (especially
> if one has installed Bash and package name completion).

I agree that porting command line tools with no icon, GUI, etc. should be
possible -- we need to add a way to promote non-user/ apps through testing
into extras for people who will be installing using apt-get.

But if the app has been wrapped to make it usable from the GUI (given an icon,
creating an xterm, whatever) then it is a GUI app and should go in user/.
But we may still want a way to separate out the "too geeky" apps of that
form.

Graham
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thomas at mich

Nov 4, 2009, 4:04 PM

Post #5 of 5 (107 views)
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Re: Why should it be so hard and should I even bother with Extras for fremantle? [In reply to]

I was hoping to spark a discussion, and I think it worked out better
than I was expecting for a rant.

My thoughts on extras: (maybe instead of karma it should be called
extras credit?).

* I don't do games, so I would consider user/games as cluttered as
someone else might consider user/cli. I don't have a solution except
a good hierarchy. Clutter tends to be anything you don't want or
like.

* There are a lot of good bits of discussion, but my original point is
that only user/* is visible, so going outside requires a "red pill"
kind of hack (and my complaint is that it doesn't auto-restore).
Anything which expands user/* to XYZ/* needs to have XYZ in the
extras-tester promotion system and in the application manager. Maybe
a universe/ or multiverse/ or advanced/ - just create something,
support it, and tell me where I can put something.

* Some apps will have hundreds of users, some only a handful, but all
require the same amount of Karma to approve. Same with complex and
critical apps v.s. simple (see below).

* Requiring a reason for "thumbs down" would probably be a good idea.

* As pointed out Karma needs some persistence so trivial changes can
be checked and promoted quickly but new versions can be tested (and
possibly beta3 inherit from beta2). Perhaps after getting a base
karma I can set how much karma I think it needs before it can be
promoted. You might need to trust developers, but karma should be
different for a simple picture viewer v.s. a security application.

* Also I should be able to pull and replace a version or some
documentation when the build doesn't change any actual code. There
seems to be no way to do this.

* The karma promoter could be a mini bug-reporting system. It isn't
designed to be bugzilla, but for an app there could be a URL somewhere
to a talk discussion or bugzilla or email or something else for the
bigger things with patches, screenshots, but simple "the button is
half off the screen" can be put into a karma comment.
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