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vivainio at gmail

May 5, 2011, 11:22 PM

Post #1 of 35 (1130 views)
Permalink
Harmattan & Maemo Community

Situation check:

So, what's the role of maemo community communication channels (these
mailing lists, talk.maemo.org) and Harmattan? Will maemo community
embrace Harmattan as "natural continuation" after maemo5? Or should
these channels be relegated to maemo5 and older alone, moving
Harmattan discussion elsewhere?
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zehjotkah at googlemail

May 5, 2011, 11:55 PM

Post #2 of 35 (1094 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

Harmattan is (as far as I know) maemo with MeeGo APIs.
I see no problem in using the existing maemo community communication
channels.

For MeeGo proper we should use the MeeGo communication channels.

But before deciding on that, we should wait for Nokias MeeGo/Harmattan
devices, which will be announced soon.

Best regards,
Cosimo

2011/5/6 Ville M. Vainio <vivainio [at] gmail>

> Situation check:
>
> So, what's the role of maemo community communication channels (these
> mailing lists, talk.maemo.org) and Harmattan? Will maemo community
> embrace Harmattan as "natural continuation" after maemo5? Or should
> these channels be relegated to maemo5 and older alone, moving
> Harmattan discussion elsewhere?
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


vivainio at gmail

May 5, 2011, 11:59 PM

Post #3 of 35 (1100 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail> wrote:

> But before deciding on that, we should wait for Nokias MeeGo/Harmattan
> devices, which will be announced soon.

Is there something in particular that needs to be known about the
platform that would influence the decision?
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zehjotkah at googlemail

May 6, 2011, 12:01 AM

Post #4 of 35 (1098 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

Sorry, I can't comment on that.

2011/5/6 Ville M. Vainio <vivainio [at] gmail>

> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail>
> wrote:
>
> > But before deciding on that, we should wait for Nokias MeeGo/Harmattan
> > devices, which will be announced soon.
>
> Is there something in particular that needs to be known about the
> platform that would influence the decision?
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


dneary at maemo

May 6, 2011, 2:04 AM

Post #5 of 35 (1095 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

Hi,

Cosimo Kroll wrote:
> Harmattan is (as far as I know) maemo with MeeGo APIs.

It's the other way around, I believe. Harmattan is MeeGo, with some
legacy Maemo APIs.

All the Nokia people will be using the MeeGo lists.

Of course, everyone is free to post messages anywhere they want, I just
don't expect much useful discussion on Maemo lists of Harmattan devices.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

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sivan at omniqueue

May 6, 2011, 2:09 AM

Post #6 of 35 (1100 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

I agree with Dave's opinion.

-Sivan

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Dave Neary <dneary [at] maemo> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Cosimo Kroll wrote:
>> Harmattan is (as far as I know) maemo with MeeGo APIs.
>
> It's the other way around, I believe. Harmattan is MeeGo, with some
> legacy Maemo APIs.
>
> All the Nokia people will be using the MeeGo lists.
>
> Of course, everyone is free to post messages anywhere they want, I just
> don't expect much useful discussion on Maemo lists of Harmattan devices.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
> --
> Email: dneary [at] maemo
> Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
_______________________________________________
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a.grandi at gmail

May 6, 2011, 2:13 AM

Post #7 of 35 (1093 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

Hi,

On 6 May 2011 09:01, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail> wrote:
> Sorry, I can't comment on that.

I've a couple of questions....

Since it's pretty clear that (ok, you can also try to adfirm the
contrary, but nobody will belive it now) Maemo/MeeGo/Harmattan is not
anymore part of the Nokia business, what is the reason to keep all of
this a secret???
I could understand if all of this was the main Nokia business because
you don't want other companies to copy your ideas and bla bla bla....
but what's the reason now?

Do you want my hopinion/speculation? Well... I really think that
Meego/Harmattan is, at the moment, better and better than WP7 and
Microsoft really don't like this.

Please, if Nokia doesn't want to invest anymore in this project, give
it to the community!

Regards.

--
Andrea Grandi - Nokia Qt Ambassador
website: http://www.andreagrandi.it
_______________________________________________
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zehjotkah at googlemail

May 6, 2011, 2:15 AM

Post #8 of 35 (1089 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

Just wait a little bit... ;)

2011/5/6 a.grandi [at] gmail <a.grandi [at] gmail>

> Hi,
>
> On 6 May 2011 09:01, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail> wrote:
> > Sorry, I can't comment on that.
>
> I've a couple of questions....
>
> Since it's pretty clear that (ok, you can also try to adfirm the
> contrary, but nobody will belive it now) Maemo/MeeGo/Harmattan is not
> anymore part of the Nokia business, what is the reason to keep all of
> this a secret???
> I could understand if all of this was the main Nokia business because
> you don't want other companies to copy your ideas and bla bla bla....
> but what's the reason now?
>
> Do you want my hopinion/speculation? Well... I really think that
> Meego/Harmattan is, at the moment, better and better than WP7 and
> Microsoft really don't like this.
>
> Please, if Nokia doesn't want to invest anymore in this project, give
> it to the community!
>
> Regards.
>
> --
> Andrea Grandi - Nokia Qt Ambassador
> website: http://www.andreagrandi.it
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


sivan at omniqueue

May 6, 2011, 2:19 AM

Post #9 of 35 (1103 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

We have been hung up waiting for the last 5 years.... :-(

-Sivan

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail> wrote:
> Just wait a little bit... ;)
>
> 2011/5/6 a.grandi [at] gmail <a.grandi [at] gmail>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 6 May 2011 09:01, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail> wrote:
>> > Sorry, I can't comment on that.
>>
>> I've a couple of questions....
>>
>> Since it's pretty clear that (ok, you can also try to adfirm the
>> contrary, but nobody will belive it now) Maemo/MeeGo/Harmattan is not
>> anymore part of the Nokia business, what is the reason to keep all of
>> this a secret???
>> I could understand if all of this was the main Nokia business because
>> you don't want other companies to copy your ideas and bla bla bla....
>> but what's the reason now?
>>
>> Do you want my hopinion/speculation? Well... I really think that
>> Meego/Harmattan is, at the moment, better and better than WP7 and
>> Microsoft really don't like this.
>>
>> Please, if Nokia doesn't want to invest anymore in this project, give
>> it to the community!
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> --
>> Andrea Grandi - Nokia Qt Ambassador
>> website: http://www.andreagrandi.it
>> _______________________________________________
>> maemo-community mailing list
>> maemo-community [at] maemo
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
>
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community


andrew at bleb

May 6, 2011, 2:21 AM

Post #10 of 35 (1082 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 07:22, Ville M. Vainio <vivainio [at] gmail> wrote:
> Situation check:
>
> So, what's the role of maemo community communication channels (these
> mailing lists, talk.maemo.org) and Harmattan? Will maemo community
> embrace Harmattan as "natural continuation" after maemo5? Or should
> these channels be relegated to maemo5 and older alone, moving
> Harmattan discussion elsewhere?

Facts:

* Harmattan will be using deb packaging, rather than RPM (AFAWK)
* meego.com has explicitly ruled out being the place for
manufacturer-specific end-/power-user discussion.

Unknowns:

* Will Nokia be able to market the device as "MeeGo", as the
compliance exemption has yet to be granted.

Questions:

* Where will people be getting their software? Will COBS be
producing Harmattan debs and, if so, make them available
through the meego.com equivalent of maemo.org/downloads?

In my opinion, the whole thing's a mess. Developers asking questions
about Qt will be answered on meego-*; but asking about Qt Quick
Components might be rejected as it's "not part of MeeGo" (with MeeGo
UX Components being preferred); developers probably won't be welcome
to discuss the intricacies of deb packaging for Harmattan, but will be
uploading source tarballs for Debian packaging to COBS?

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew [at] bleb  |  http://www.bleb.org/
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andrew at bleb

May 6, 2011, 2:24 AM

Post #11 of 35 (1084 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:15, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail> wrote:
> Just wait a little bit... ;)

I'm not sure this teasing is helpful. If you know something (like
Ville inevitably does), you should either helpfully hint around the
limits of what you can discuss; or be quiet about it.

As Ville asks, what *kind* of things could be revealed as part of a
Nokia device announcement which would affect whether meego.com,
maemo.org, somewhere else or a mess between them is the place to
discuss a Harmattan platform?

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew [at] bleb  |  http://www.bleb.org/
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sivan at omniqueue

May 6, 2011, 2:25 AM

Post #12 of 35 (1079 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

Andrew, to stress more what you outline here - the mess is so deep I'm
worried Harmattan would not be accepted in the community until its
next version, e.g. the proper fully compliant MeeGo with RPM packaging
and MeeGo UX components. This would be the least problematic case
creating less fragmentation than if it was to be highly adopted by the
community....


IMHO/ 2c's.



-Sivan

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew [at] bleb> wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 07:22, Ville M. Vainio <vivainio [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Situation check:
>>
>> So, what's the role of maemo community communication channels (these
>> mailing lists, talk.maemo.org) and Harmattan? Will maemo community
>> embrace Harmattan as "natural continuation" after maemo5? Or should
>> these channels be relegated to maemo5 and older alone, moving
>> Harmattan discussion elsewhere?
>
> Facts:
>
>  * Harmattan will be using deb packaging, rather than RPM (AFAWK)
>  * meego.com has explicitly ruled out being the place for
>    manufacturer-specific end-/power-user discussion.
>
> Unknowns:
>
>  * Will Nokia be able to market the device as "MeeGo", as the
>    compliance exemption has yet to be granted.
>
> Questions:
>
>  * Where will people be getting their software? Will COBS be
>    producing Harmattan debs and, if so, make them available
>    through the meego.com equivalent of maemo.org/downloads?
>
> In my opinion, the whole thing's a mess. Developers asking questions
> about Qt will be answered on meego-*; but asking about Qt Quick
> Components might be rejected as it's "not part of MeeGo" (with MeeGo
> UX Components being preferred); developers probably won't be welcome
> to discuss the intricacies of deb packaging for Harmattan, but will be
> uploading source tarballs for Debian packaging to COBS?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew [at] bleb  |  http://www.bleb.org/
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
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https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community


viroteck at viroteck

May 6, 2011, 2:28 AM

Post #13 of 35 (1079 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On 06/05/11 10:21, Andrew Flegg wrote:
> In my opinion, the whole thing's a mess.

Well, that's a given. But at least that has been recognised and
discussed to some extent. It won't all be fixable, but the damage can be
mitigated.

> Developers asking questions about Qt will be answered on meego-*;
> but asking about Qt Quick Components might be rejected as it's
> "not part of MeeGo" (with MeeGo UX Components being preferred);

I really don't believe this can be the case, it is in both MeeGo's and
Qt's interests to align themselves towards compatibility, and weak
indications are that this is sort of happening. Perhaps some pointed
questions need to be asked about that, though. Any volunteers want to
start asking questions about API differences and why they exist? :)

> developers probably won't be welcome to discuss the intricacies of
> deb packaging for Harmattan, but will be uploading source tarballs
> for Debian packaging to COBS?

I may be wrong, but wasn't there a proposal to set up an OBS for
maemo.org at some point?

--
Robin Burchell
http://rburchell.com
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g+770 at cobb

May 6, 2011, 2:29 AM

Post #14 of 35 (1079 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Friday 06 May 2011 07:59:44 Ville M. Vainio wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail>
wrote:
> > But before deciding on that, we should wait for Nokias MeeGo/Harmattan
> > devices, which will be announced soon.
>
> Is there something in particular that needs to be known about the
> platform that would influence the decision?

I think it is more that the answer will depend on what the community wants,
and the community will not have an opinion until they have some experience. I
don't think anyone thinks there will be a separate place for Harmattan but it
is not yet clear whether MeeGo or Maemo are the most natural homes.

For example, there appears to be an issue about whether Harmattan will
actually use the MeeGo name or not (and, if so, whether it will be hidden in
small print somewhere or trumpeted as a feature). There has been some
discussion about it, but I have not seen any recent definitive statement, nor
do I expect one until the device ships.

My **personal** view is that Harmatten will end up here. Recent discussions
in MeeGo seem to have tended towards the view that the MeeGo lists and sites
are not the place for discussion of (let alone support of) specific devices
(whether for end users or developers). Not to mention some downright
hostility towards Harmattan (and, to some extent, Nokia).

In my mind the only way MeeGo would be a home for Harmattan might be if Nokia
make "MeeGo" a major end-user marketing feature of the device (so, for
example, app compatability becomes an interesting discussion point).
Personally I don't think that is likely but we won't know until it ships.

Graham
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sivan at omniqueue

May 6, 2011, 2:33 AM

Post #15 of 35 (1084 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew [at] bleb> wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:15, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail> wrote:
>> Just wait a little bit... ;)
>
> I'm not sure this teasing is helpful. If you know something (like
> Ville inevitably does), you should either helpfully hint around the
> limits of what you can discuss; or be quiet about it.

Right. Let's avoid "leak and rumor hunger"[0] as so wonderfully
addressed in timeless's and mine's talk at the Dublin conference. This
just creates confusion and discontent. I think the best thing would be
to wait for a Nokia MeeGo developer edition release which should be
hopefully aligned with the compliance and would seamlessly integrate
into the current meego.com infrastructure.

I think the last thing I want to see is more users raging at the
closed components of Harmattan over the Maemo infrastructure,
effectively repeating the mistakes of the Maemo releases...

-Sivan

[0]: http://conference2010.meego.com/session/creating-first-choice-open-source-mobile-platform-learning-mistakes-past-and-beyond
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zehjotkah at googlemail

May 6, 2011, 2:36 AM

Post #16 of 35 (1081 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

Yes, that's my view, too.
The community will decide and they can only decide when there are devices to
buy.
We don't even know exactly what Harmattan is, there are only hints.
And yes, I agree, that's a deep mess.

Therefore I think it would be good to wait for the actual devices before
deciding where the Harmattan community goes on.


2011/5/6 Graham Cobb <g+770 [at] cobb>

> On Friday 06 May 2011 07:59:44 Ville M. Vainio wrote:
> > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail>
> wrote:
> > > But before deciding on that, we should wait for Nokias MeeGo/Harmattan
> > > devices, which will be announced soon.
> >
> > Is there something in particular that needs to be known about the
> > platform that would influence the decision?
>
> I think it is more that the answer will depend on what the community wants,
> and the community will not have an opinion until they have some experience.
> I
> don't think anyone thinks there will be a separate place for Harmattan but
> it
> is not yet clear whether MeeGo or Maemo are the most natural homes.
>
> For example, there appears to be an issue about whether Harmattan will
> actually use the MeeGo name or not (and, if so, whether it will be hidden
> in
> small print somewhere or trumpeted as a feature). There has been some
> discussion about it, but I have not seen any recent definitive statement,
> nor
> do I expect one until the device ships.
>
> My **personal** view is that Harmatten will end up here. Recent
> discussions
> in MeeGo seem to have tended towards the view that the MeeGo lists and
> sites
> are not the place for discussion of (let alone support of) specific devices
> (whether for end users or developers). Not to mention some downright
> hostility towards Harmattan (and, to some extent, Nokia).
>
> In my mind the only way MeeGo would be a home for Harmattan might be if
> Nokia
> make "MeeGo" a major end-user marketing feature of the device (so, for
> example, app compatability becomes an interesting discussion point).
> Personally I don't think that is likely but we won't know until it ships.
>
> Graham
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


vivainio at gmail

May 6, 2011, 2:36 AM

Post #17 of 35 (1086 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Graham Cobb <g+770 [at] cobb> wrote:

> In my mind the only way MeeGo would be a home for Harmattan might be if Nokia
> make "MeeGo" a major end-user marketing feature of the device (so, for
> example, app compatability becomes an interesting discussion point).
> Personally I don't think that is likely but we won't know until it ships.

Even if MeeGo was a major marketing feature, it has been communicated
that Harmattan specific stuff won't be welcome on meego mailing lists.
That is, it's not just a Nokia marketing decision.

Spiritually, I think Harmattan users are firmly in the "MeeGo
community" more than anything else, but those channels are just not
the most hospitable place for detailed device-specific technical
discussion. Forum Nokia (i.e. web forum) will be an endorsed
communication channel, but as it appears, forums are not very popular
among busy people.
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vivainio at gmail

May 6, 2011, 2:42 AM

Post #18 of 35 (1081 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:13 PM, a.grandi [at] gmail <a.grandi [at] gmail> wrote:

> Since it's pretty clear that (ok, you can also try to adfirm the
> contrary, but nobody will belive it now) Maemo/MeeGo/Harmattan is not
> anymore part of the Nokia business, what is the reason to keep all of
> this a secret???

It's the old big reveal thing.

Qt continues to have a huge role in Nokia's strategy, and Harmattan is
in the Qt family of products (among the more "aspirational" ones at
that).

> Do you want my hopinion/speculation? Well... I really think that
> Meego/Harmattan is, at the moment, better and better than WP7 and
> Microsoft really don't like this.

Remember how N900 was "better for you, maybe", while N97 was the phone
recommended for normal people :-P?.
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vivainio at gmail

May 6, 2011, 2:43 AM

Post #19 of 35 (1083 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Sivan Greenberg <sivan [at] omniqueue> wrote:

> just creates confusion and discontent. I think the best thing would be
> to wait for a Nokia MeeGo developer edition release which should be
> hopefully aligned with the compliance and would seamlessly integrate
> into the current meego.com infrastructure.

The N900DE is nowhere near Harmattan in functionality yet, so it's
going to be a longish wait.
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sunnyb7532 at gmail

May 6, 2011, 5:24 AM

Post #20 of 35 (1090 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:24 AM, Andrew Flegg <andrew [at] bleb> wrote:

> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:15, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah [at] googlemail>
> wrote:
> > Just wait a little bit... ;)
>
> I'm not sure this teasing is helpful. If you know something (like
> Ville inevitably does), you should either helpfully hint around the
> limits of what you can discuss; or be quiet about it.
>
> As Ville asks, what *kind* of things could be revealed as part of a
> Nokia device announcement which would affect whether meego.com,
> maemo.org, somewhere else or a mess between them is the place to
> discuss a Harmattan platform?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>

Hi all,

Thanks for the discussion. To answer the initial question, t.m.o. and maemo
community lists will remain open for discussions of Harmattan, if for no
other reason that maemo.org is an open community and we let people discuss
things as they wish here. Certainly, there are discussions which are more
off-topic than Harmattan. This is not to say that Council will be passive,
and might not make some changes in an attempt to keep the community vibrant
in view of the challenges that we know lie ahead.

As to Ville's request for information considered relevant, I can answer for
myself at this time, and with the advice that this topic (and others!) is to
be discussed by Council at the Conference, probably some time late on
Sunday:

1) Clarification of the SW Architecture - Is it Meego Core OS with a Nokia
custom UI or UX on top? QGil has said MeeGo APIs, but now Dave Neary says
some legacy Maemo APIs (in addition?).
2) To what extent is the Nokia custom part open source?
3) MeeGo compliance
4) To what extent is the Harmattan custom UI or UX familiar to users of
Maemo5 or Maemo 4.1?
5) To what extent will developers of Maemo5 and Maemo 4.1 apps be
comfortable with Harmattan and find it a "natural" extension.

Although it was not asked, another important component to the reception of
Harmattan at maemo.org is, I hate to say it, Nokia's overture (or lack
thereof) to maemo.org. They could be cooperative or not, and that does
still matter.

I agree with Andrew that the thing is a mess. I think that's beyond the
control of maemo.org. Perhaps we can try to clarify things through
discussions with MeeGo people - core Meego OS goes to meego.com and
Harmattan UI and UX are with maemo.org or something more strained than
that. But the division is admittedly not good - we'll have to see. I hope
we get some clarity at the conference.

Rob


vivainio at gmail

May 6, 2011, 5:36 AM

Post #21 of 35 (1079 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Sunny B <sunnyb7532 [at] gmail> wrote:

> 1)  Clarification of the SW Architecture - Is it Meego Core OS with a Nokia
> custom UI or UX on top?  QGil has said MeeGo APIs, but now Dave Neary says
> some legacy Maemo APIs (in addition?).

Harmattan is evolution of maemo5, with no MeeGo Core lineage. It has
several components that are shared with MeeGo though. That's why it's
said to be "meego compatible".

> 3)  MeeGo compliance

Harmattan is not MeeGo compliant at all, starting with the fact that
it's using deb instead of rpm.

> 5)  To what extent will developers of Maemo5 and Maemo 4.1 apps be
> comfortable with Harmattan and find it a "natural" extension.

Back-end stuff will feel very familiar, GUI development is supposed to
be done in QML (familiarity of which can be argued, as it's an overall
new phenomenon).


> I agree with Andrew that the thing is a mess.  I think that's beyond the
> control of maemo.org.  Perhaps we can try to clarify things through
> discussions with MeeGo people - core Meego OS goes to meego.com and
> Harmattan UI and UX are with maemo.org or something more strained than
> that.  But the division is admittedly not good - we'll have to see.  I hope
> we get some clarity at the conference.

As said there is no "Core MeeGo OS" in Harmattan.
_______________________________________________
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mece66 at gmail

May 6, 2011, 6:04 AM

Post #22 of 35 (1080 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

From Ville's clarification it's quite clear, to me at least, that Harmattan
has no business on the MeeGo side, and fits quite well into maemo.org. It
sounds much similar to the Maemo4 to Maemo5 relationship.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Ville M. Vainio <vivainio [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Sunny B <sunnyb7532 [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > 1) Clarification of the SW Architecture - Is it Meego Core OS with a
> Nokia
> > custom UI or UX on top? QGil has said MeeGo APIs, but now Dave Neary
> says
> > some legacy Maemo APIs (in addition?).
>
> Harmattan is evolution of maemo5, with no MeeGo Core lineage. It has
> several components that are shared with MeeGo though. That's why it's
> said to be "meego compatible".
>
> > 3) MeeGo compliance
>
> Harmattan is not MeeGo compliant at all, starting with the fact that
> it's using deb instead of rpm.
>
> > 5) To what extent will developers of Maemo5 and Maemo 4.1 apps be
> > comfortable with Harmattan and find it a "natural" extension.
>
> Back-end stuff will feel very familiar, GUI development is supposed to
> be done in QML (familiarity of which can be argued, as it's an overall
> new phenomenon).
>
>
> > I agree with Andrew that the thing is a mess. I think that's beyond the
> > control of maemo.org. Perhaps we can try to clarify things through
> > discussions with MeeGo people - core Meego OS goes to meego.com and
> > Harmattan UI and UX are with maemo.org or something more strained than
> > that. But the division is admittedly not good - we'll have to see. I
> hope
> > we get some clarity at the conference.
>
> As said there is no "Core MeeGo OS" in Harmattan.
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


sunnyb7532 at gmail

May 6, 2011, 6:13 AM

Post #23 of 35 (1086 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Ville M. Vainio <vivainio [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Sunny B <sunnyb7532 [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > 1) Clarification of the SW Architecture - Is it Meego Core OS with a
> Nokia
> > custom UI or UX on top? QGil has said MeeGo APIs, but now Dave Neary
> says
> > some legacy Maemo APIs (in addition?).
>
> Harmattan is evolution of maemo5, with no MeeGo Core lineage. It has
> several components that are shared with MeeGo though. That's why it's
> said to be "meego compatible".
>
> > 3) MeeGo compliance
>
> Harmattan is not MeeGo compliant at all, starting with the fact that
> it's using deb instead of rpm.
>
> > 5) To what extent will developers of Maemo5 and Maemo 4.1 apps be
> > comfortable with Harmattan and find it a "natural" extension.
>
> Back-end stuff will feel very familiar, GUI development is supposed to
> be done in QML (familiarity of which can be argued, as it's an overall
> new phenomenon).
>
>
> > I agree with Andrew that the thing is a mess. I think that's beyond the
> > control of maemo.org. Perhaps we can try to clarify things through
> > discussions with MeeGo people - core Meego OS goes to meego.com and
> > Harmattan UI and UX are with maemo.org or something more strained than
> > that. But the division is admittedly not good - we'll have to see. I
> hope
> > we get some clarity at the conference.
>
> As said there is no "Core MeeGo OS" in Harmattan.
>
>
Thanks Ville. As to MeeGo compliance, I guess I meant that in a larger
sense, not the certification program, but I didn't know the core OS wasn't
MeeGo. The extent of shared lineage I hope some more knowledgeable than I
can address in due course. I know QGil is still trying to get the device
"accepted" in MeeGo community and his session was not accepted at
Conference. It seems poor Harmattan may be the poor child born after its
parents divorced.

Can 2) and 4) be answered sometime before device release? Although I
understand if the Nokia UX/UI cannot be known until the big reveal.


maemo at csipa

May 6, 2011, 8:49 AM

Post #24 of 35 (1100 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Sunny B <sunnyb7532 [at] gmail> wrote:

> Can 2) and 4) be answered sometime before device release? Although I
> understand if the Nokia UX/UI cannot be known until the big reveal.
>

Not in an overly meaningful way - the package licensing (or, for that
matter, what packages/components are there in the first place) will be
revealed when the SDK is released, until then it's what's open is open and
what isn't isn't (except for the things like Qt for which you already know
the answer). As for the UX/UI it is clear that no specifics will be
revealed, but it's known that there is a major technical switch in there
(GTK/Hildon -> Qt(Quick)), which will of course impact look & feel because
of the technologies involved. In Maemo 5 we had the QMaemo5 module which was
about replicating/wrapping Hildon/GTK functionality/feel. As Ville says,
Harmattan is geared towards QtQuick, and has no need for a QHarmattan module
as there is no native widget set that needs to be wrapped, QtQuick and Qt
Components *are* the native approach for development on Harmattan (just like
MeeGo, and, lately, on Maemo5, too). I would also like to underline this for
our point 5) - those who did QML development on Maemo5 will feel right at
home (I would argue that they feel at home on MeeGo, too, but hey...). Those
who developed using QWidgets will have a bit more work to do, especially if
they used QMaemo5 stuff extensively. AFAIK Hildon/GTK is at community level
support, I have no idea of the porting status there.

Best regards,
Attila


mike at cchtml

May 6, 2011, 8:56 AM

Post #25 of 35 (1081 views)
Permalink
Re: Harmattan & Maemo Community [In reply to]

On 05/06/2011 04:04 AM, Dave Neary wrote:
> Harmattan devices.

Plural? I doubt there will be more than one if that one device ever sees
the light of day. If it isn't LTE compatible then it is truly destined
to die in the womb.

/rant
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