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[Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software

  

 
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vdv100 at gmail

Nov 28, 2009, 9:20 AM

Post #1 of 25 (2268 views)
Permalink
[Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software
Hi,

We need to reach a decision for this proposal[1].

"Currently it's easier to get plenty of karma blogging about apps, talking
about apps and commenting bugs in apps... but at the end are the developers
who carry with a lot of the hard work. Let's praise them!" - Quim Gil

There's already some good points/solutions in the brainstorm page and in the
related discussion at TMO[1] (Warning a lot of 'sparks' there :) ).

IMO the solution with more potential so far is "#6 Measure existing userbase
via updates"[3], of course it needs some tweaks[4][5].

Please keep the discussion on topic.


[1] -
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
[2] - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519
[3] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=325763&postcount=55
[4] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326086&postcount=58
[5] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326181&postcount=61

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério
Maemo Community Council Chair

http://www.valeriovalerio.org


dneary at maemo

Dec 1, 2009, 1:48 AM

Post #2 of 25 (2222 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

Valerio Valerio wrote:
> We need to reach a decision for this proposal[1].
>
> "Currently it's easier to get plenty of karma blogging about apps,
> talking about apps and commenting bugs in apps... but at the end are the
> developers who carry with a lot of the hard work. Let's praise them!" -
> Quim Gil
>
> There's already some good points/solutions in the brainstorm page and in
> the related discussion at TMO[1] (Warning a lot of 'sparks' there :) ).
>
> IMO the solution with more potential so far is "#6 Measure existing
> userbase via updates"[3], of course it needs some tweaks[4][5].

One idea which hasn't been discussed is that we could increase
appplication development related karma, or reduce talk/blog/email
related karma, to give a bigger influence to application development.

In general, I think that using downloads has a few merits - notably,
it's the easiest to apply, which is a concern.

App karma is intended to measure relevance over time, so why not have it
added to maintainers karma (but then, the maintainers karma can/should
go down over time - is that OK?).

I see that Quim's already asked those questions in that Talk thread.

It seems to me like measuring the peak height is a bit trickier, and has
the same problem that the karma from the app can go up or down over time.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community


vdv100 at gmail

Dec 1, 2009, 2:39 AM

Post #3 of 25 (2219 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Dave Neary <dneary [at] maemo> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Valerio Valerio wrote:
> > We need to reach a decision for this proposal[1].
> >
> > "Currently it's easier to get plenty of karma blogging about apps,
> > talking about apps and commenting bugs in apps... but at the end are the
> > developers who carry with a lot of the hard work. Let's praise them!" -
> > Quim Gil
> >
> > There's already some good points/solutions in the brainstorm page and in
> > the related discussion at TMO[1] (Warning a lot of 'sparks' there :) ).
> >
> > IMO the solution with more potential so far is "#6 Measure existing
> > userbase via updates"[3], of course it needs some tweaks[4][5].
>
> One idea which hasn't been discussed is that we could increase
> appplication development related karma, or reduce talk/blog/email
> related karma, to give a bigger influence to application development.
>
> In general, I think that using downloads has a few merits - notably,
> it's the easiest to apply, which is a concern.
>
> App karma is intended to measure relevance over time, so why not have it
> added to maintainers karma (but then, the maintainers karma can/should
> go down over time - is that OK?).
>
> I see that Quim's already asked those questions in that Talk thread.
>
> It seems to me like measuring the peak height is a bit trickier, and has
> the same problem that the karma from the app can go up or down over time.
>

The idea is keep the highest peak all the time, so the karma never goes
down.

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org



> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
> --
> maemo.org docsmaster
> Email: dneary [at] maemo
> Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


henri.bergius at nemein

Dec 1, 2009, 3:04 AM

Post #4 of 25 (2220 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

2009/12/1 Dave Neary <dneary [at] maemo>:
> One idea which hasn't been discussed is that we could increase
> appplication development related karma, or reduce talk/blog/email
> related karma, to give a bigger influence to application development.

At the moment Karma looks at applications developer has contributed to
Maemo Downloads and their ratings. So, higher rated app gives more
score, and each Maemo version the app is available for is counted
separately.

However, there are other factors we should look at:

* Maemo Extras upload activity (how many builds, how far those builds
went, what votes they got)
* Download numbers of applications as a factor used next to ratings
* Ohloh kudos would give a wider "appreciation rating" in the free
software world (http://www.ohloh.net/about/kudos)
* Maemo Extras testing activity (voting, comments)
* Maybe we could also dig up commits on Garage

> Dave.

/Henri

--
Henri Bergius
Nemein - Web Craftsmanship
http://nemein.com
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community


andrew at bleb

Dec 1, 2009, 4:26 AM

Post #5 of 25 (2218 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Henri wrote:
>
> However, there are other factors we should look at:
>
> * Maemo Extras upload activity (how many builds, how far those builds
> went, what votes they got)

Disagree. The past performance of the build shouldn't have any affect on an application's karma. However, see below on thoughts about -testing.

> * Download numbers of applications as a factor used next to ratings

Absolutely. However, like tmo posts this should probably be sqrt($downloads).

> * Ohloh kudos would give a wider "appreciation rating" in the free
> software world (http://www.ohloh.net/about/kudos)

I think Ohloh is of little value to the small projects we've had in Maemo to date.

> * Maemo Extras testing activity (voting, comments)

Yup, although we're trying to encourage a "testsquad" who'll test everything so I don't know how we'd square that circle.

One interesting thought: should a package *lose* karma if it gets a high number of votes UP and then ISN'T promoted to Extras? Effectively penalising a package for wasting testers' time?

> * Maybe we could also dig up commits on Garage

I thought developers already got karma for Garage activity (being on a project AND commiting to projects).

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew [at] bleb  |  http://www.bleb.org/
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community


quim.gil at nokia

Dec 1, 2009, 4:42 AM

Post #6 of 25 (2222 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Mmm... are we repeating here the brainstorming that has been running at
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
& http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519?



ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> Henri wrote:
>> However, there are other factors we should look at:
>>
>> * Maemo Extras upload activity (how many builds, how far those
>> builds went, what votes they got)
>
> Disagree. The past performance of the build shouldn't have any affect
> on an application's karma. However, see below on thoughts about
> -testing.
>
>> * Download numbers of applications as a factor used next to ratings
>>
>
> Absolutely. However, like tmo posts this should probably be
> sqrt($downloads).
>
>> * Ohloh kudos would give a wider "appreciation rating" in the free
>> software world (http://www.ohloh.net/about/kudos)
>
> I think Ohloh is of little value to the small projects we've had in
> Maemo to date.
>
>> * Maemo Extras testing activity (voting, comments)
>
> Yup, although we're trying to encourage a "testsquad" who'll test
> everything so I don't know how we'd square that circle.
>
> One interesting thought: should a package *lose* karma if it gets a
> high number of votes UP and then ISN'T promoted to Extras?
> Effectively penalising a package for wasting testers' time?
>
>> * Maybe we could also dig up commits on Garage
>
> I thought developers already got karma for Garage activity (being on
> a project AND commiting to projects).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>

--
Quim Gil
open source advocate
Maemo Devices @ Nokia
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community


vdv100 at gmail

Dec 1, 2009, 5:49 AM

Post #7 of 25 (2217 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Quim Gil <quim.gil [at] nokia> wrote:

> Mmm... are we repeating here the brainstorming that has been running at
>
> http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
> & http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519?
>

well my intention was not repeat the original discussion, if you read my
mail you will noticed that those links are referred there, and I also
summarized the original discussion and highlighted the proposal with more
consensus in order to reach a decision.

Why I used this channel ? Well a lot of people with valuable opinions are
here, as well the ones that will implement the solution, and I know some of
them don't have enough energy to follow 10000 TMO posts :).

If the community wants *everything* at TMO, I'm fine with it.

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org


>
>
> ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > Henri wrote:
> >> However, there are other factors we should look at:
> >>
> >> * Maemo Extras upload activity (how many builds, how far those
> >> builds went, what votes they got)
> >
> > Disagree. The past performance of the build shouldn't have any affect
> > on an application's karma. However, see below on thoughts about
> > -testing.
> >
> >> * Download numbers of applications as a factor used next to ratings
> >>
> >
> > Absolutely. However, like tmo posts this should probably be
> > sqrt($downloads).
> >
> >> * Ohloh kudos would give a wider "appreciation rating" in the free
> >> software world (http://www.ohloh.net/about/kudos)
> >
> > I think Ohloh is of little value to the small projects we've had in
> > Maemo to date.
> >
> >> * Maemo Extras testing activity (voting, comments)
> >
> > Yup, although we're trying to encourage a "testsquad" who'll test
> > everything so I don't know how we'd square that circle.
> >
> > One interesting thought: should a package *lose* karma if it gets a
> > high number of votes UP and then ISN'T promoted to Extras?
> > Effectively penalising a package for wasting testers' time?
> >
> >> * Maybe we could also dig up commits on Garage
> >
> > I thought developers already got karma for Garage activity (being on
> > a project AND commiting to projects).
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Andrew
> >
>
> --
> Quim Gil
> open source advocate
> Maemo Devices @ Nokia
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


quim.gil at nokia

Dec 1, 2009, 6:00 AM

Post #8 of 25 (2220 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
----- Original message -----
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Quim Gil <quim.gil [at] nokia> wrote:
>
>                Mmm... are we repeating here the brainstorming that has been
>                running at
>               
>             
> http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
>                                 
>                & http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519?
>               
>
> well my intention was not repeat the original discussion, if you read my
> mail you will noticed that those links are referred there, and I also
> summarized the original discussion  and highlighted the proposal with
> more consensus in order to reach a decision.
>
> Why I used this channel ? Well a lot of people with valuable opinions
> are here, as well the ones that will implement the solution, and I know
> some of them don't have enough energy to follow 10000 TMO posts :).

Your initial intention is very good, but after few replies we are in the point where the memory has vanished and we are repeating the discussions already made.

Henri made a summary of possibilities when we have one in the Brainstorm. Then Jaffa answers one point about Ohloh when in the Brainstorm the Ohloh option is explained in more detail. And so on.

If the proposal starts in Brainstorm with a Talk thread then everybody has a chance to vote and subscribe to the thread if they are really interested. A link here to those URLs should be enough if the discussion has been going on already.

Sometimes we have linked from a Talk thread to a discussion to maemo-developers or to a bug report, so it's not about discussing only in Talk.


> If the community wants *everything* at TMO, I'm fine with it.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Valério Valério
>
> http://www.valeriovalerio.org
>
>
>               
>               
>               
>               
>                ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
>                > Henri wrote:
>                >> However, there are other factors we should look at:
>                >>
>                >> * Maemo Extras upload activity (how many builds, how far
>                those
>                >> builds went, what votes they got)
>                >
>                > Disagree. The past performance of the build shouldn't have any
>                affect
>                > on an application's karma. However, see below on thoughts
>                about
>                > -testing.
>                >
>                >> * Download numbers of applications as a factor used next to
>                ratings
>                >>
>                >
>                > Absolutely. However, like tmo posts this should probably be
>                > sqrt($downloads).
>                >
>                >> * Ohloh kudos would give a wider "appreciation rating" in the
>                free
>                >> software world (http://www.ohloh.net/about/kudos)
>                >
>                > I think Ohloh is of little value to the small projects we've
>                had in
>                > Maemo to date.
>                >
>                >> * Maemo Extras testing activity (voting, comments)
>                >
>                > Yup, although we're trying to encourage a "testsquad" who'll
>                test
>                > everything so I don't know how we'd square that circle.
>                >
>                > One interesting thought: should a package *lose* karma if it
>                gets a
>                > high number of votes UP and then ISN'T promoted to Extras?
>                > Effectively penalising a package for wasting testers' time?
>                >
>                >> * Maybe we could also dig up commits on Garage
>                >
>                > I thought developers already got karma for Garage activity
>                (being on
>                > a project AND commiting to projects).
>                >
>                > Cheers,
>                >
>                > Andrew
>                >
>               
>                --
>               
>               
>                Quim Gil
>                open source advocate
>                Maemo Devices @ Nokia
>               
>               
>                _______________________________________________
>                maemo-community mailing list
>                maemo-community [at] maemo
>                https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>               
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community


david at dgreaves

Dec 1, 2009, 7:01 AM

Post #9 of 25 (2217 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 13:49 +0000, Valerio Valerio wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Quim Gil <quim.gil [at] nokia> wrote:
> Mmm... are we repeating here the brainstorming that has been
> running at
> http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
>
> & http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519?
>
> well my intention was not repeat the original discussion, if you read
> my mail you will noticed that those links are referred there, and I
> also summarized the original discussion and highlighted the proposal
> with more consensus in order to reach a decision.
>
> Why I used this channel ? Well a lot of people with valuable opinions
> are here, as well the ones that will implement the solution, and I
> know some of them don't have enough energy to follow 10000 TMO
> posts :).

And thanks for doing this Valério - I wouldn't even have known without a
ml post :)

> If the community wants *everything* at TMO, I'm fine with it.
I'm not FWIW.

The s/n ration in TMO together with the slow access speed (cf email for
me) means I *very* rarely venture in. I find it takes far too long to
read through the pages of ... hmmm, to be polite: "tmo content" to find
the nuggets of valuable info.

nb The very idea of discussing developer- related things on t.m.o.
rather than the dev ml seems somewhat odd to me.

David/lbt



_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community


texrat at ovi

Dec 1, 2009, 7:19 AM

Post #10 of 25 (2216 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
> ----- Original message -----
> From: quim.gil [at] nokia
> To: vdv100 [at] gmail, maemo-community [at] maemo
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the
relevance of their software
> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 15:00:50 +0100
>
>
> ----- Original message -----
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Quim Gil <quim.gil [at] nokia> wrote:
> >
> >                 Mmm... are we repeating here the
> > brainstorming that has been
> >                 running at
> >                
> >              
> >
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
> >                                  
> >                 & http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519?
> >                
> >
> > well my intention was not repeat the original discussion, if you read
my
> > mail you will noticed that those links are referred there, and I also
> > summarized the original discussion  and highlighted the proposal with
> > more consensus in order to reach a decision.
> >
> > Why I used this channel ? Well a lot of people with valuable opinions
> > are here, as well the ones that will implement the solution, and I
know
> > some of them don't have enough energy to follow 10000 TMO posts :).
>
> Your initial intention is very good, but after few replies we are in
> the point where the memory has vanished and we are repeating the
> discussions already made.
>
> Henri made a summary of possibilities when we have one in the
> Brainstorm. Then Jaffa answers one point about Ohloh when in the
> Brainstorm the Ohloh option is explained in more detail. And so on.
>
> If the proposal starts in Brainstorm with a Talk thread then
> everybody has a chance to vote and subscribe to the thread if they
> are really interested. A link here to those URLs should be enough if
> the discussion has been going on already.
>
> Sometimes we have linked from a Talk thread to a discussion to
> maemo-developers or to a bug report, so it's not about discussing
> only in Talk.


It's obvious either our decision-making process is poorly defined and/or
not being followed.

Indecision over Brainstorm and other items is an ongoing problem that may
have been okay in a newer community but IMO we are at a point to move
past it.

The way I see it the decisive process needs to be hierarchal, from the
bottom up:

-Any member submits proposal (solution)
-Rank and file + council + developers + Nokia employees/contractors
discuss and vote
-Council harvests input and narrows options
-If council can reduce to obvious attainable solution(s), all are
escalated to actionable party (Nokia, Reggie, council members, et al) for
implementation
-If council cannot reach a concrete decision, solution(s) escalated to
actionable party or parties for ultimate decision (in most cases probably
Nokia)

Does that sound like what we should be following?

IMO we need to find a way past this decision-making impasse...

Randall (Randy) Arnold
maemo.org community council
http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/




>
>
> > If the community wants *everything* at TMO, I'm fine with it.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > --
> > Valério Valério
> >
> > http://www.valeriovalerio.org
> >
> >
> >                
> >                
> >                
> >                
> >                 ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> >                 > Henri wrote:
> >                 >> However, there are other factors we
> > should look at:
> >                 >>
> >                 >> * Maemo Extras upload activity (how many
> > builds, how far
> >                 those
> >                 >> builds went, what votes they got)
> >                 >
> >                 > Disagree. The past performance of the
> > build shouldn't have any
> >                 affect
> >                 > on an application's karma. However, see
> > below on thoughts
> >                 about
> >                 > -testing.
> >                 >
> >                 >> * Download numbers of applications as a
> > factor used next to
> >                 ratings
> >                 >>
> >                 >
> >                 > Absolutely. However, like tmo posts this
> > should probably be
> >                 > sqrt($downloads).
> >                 >
> >                 >> * Ohloh kudos would give a wider
> > "appreciation rating" in the
> >                 free
> >                 >> software world (http://www.ohloh.net/about/kudos)
> >                 >
> >                 > I think Ohloh is of little value to the
> > small projects we've
> >                 had in
> >                 > Maemo to date.
> >                 >
> >                 >> * Maemo Extras testing activity (voting,
> > comments)
> >                 >
> >                 > Yup, although we're trying to encourage a
> > "testsquad" who'll
> >                 test
> >                 > everything so I don't know how we'd
> > square that circle.
> >                 >
> >                 > One interesting thought: should a package
> > *lose* karma if it
> >                 gets a
> >                 > high number of votes UP and then ISN'T
> > promoted to Extras?
> >                 > Effectively penalising a package for
> > wasting testers' time?
> >                 >
> >                 >> * Maybe we could also dig up commits on Garage
> >                 >
> >                 > I thought developers already got karma
> > for Garage activity
> >                 (being on
> >                 > a project AND commiting to projects).
> >                 >
> >                 > Cheers,
> >                 >
> >                 > Andrew
> >                 >
> >                
> >                 --
> >                
> >                
> >                 Quim Gil
> >                 open source advocate
> >                 Maemo Devices @ Nokia
> >                
> >                
> >                 _______________________________________________
> >                 maemo-community mailing list
> >                 maemo-community [at] maemo
> >                
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >                
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>

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andrew at bleb

Dec 1, 2009, 7:37 AM

Post #11 of 25 (2217 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Quim wrote:
>
> If the proposal starts in Brainstorm with a Talk thread then everybody has a
> chance to vote and subscribe to the thread if they are really interested. A link
> here to those URLs should be enough if the discussion has been going on already.

Except a great many people don't read Brainstorm (I'm still not convinced of its value, despite asking for examples of it working; but won't repeat my critique here) and I know of many people who aren't reading tmo as much any more.

So, apologies for going over old ground. To avoid t further I'll concentrate on my holiday (ah, again; email is easier to follow and reply to in small gaps while tmo requires at least an hour put aside to even skim the threads which *look* interesting) and assume all the points have already been made; that key stakeholders and experts have been involved in the discussion on Brainstorm and Talk and that the purpose of this thread is to point time-short community-focused developers to discussions in the Other Place(s).

> > If the community wants *everything* at TMO, I'm fine with it.

I'm not, even assuming that MWN takes off and the threads of interest are highlighted in a timely manner.

Cheers,

Andrew

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jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Dec 1, 2009, 7:56 AM

Post #12 of 25 (2228 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
On Dec 1, 2009, at 16:01, David Greaves wrote:

>> If the community wants *everything* at TMO, I'm fine with it.

> I'm not FWIW.

Blech. Talk is overwhelming. I prefer the more detailed and serious discussion here.

Jeremiah
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dneary at maemo

Dec 1, 2009, 8:56 AM

Post #13 of 25 (2216 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

David Greaves wrote:
> nb The very idea of discussing developer- related things on t.m.o.
> rather than the dev ml seems somewhat odd to me.

In defense of forums:

Forums and mailing lists are good for different things.

The normal forum use-case is come in, don't read any history, ask a
question, get notified when other people post to the forum thread, get
an answer, you're done.

Low committment, and information is not persistent.

For enthusiasts interested in helping, come in, browse threads, spot a
few questions you can answer in the latest threads, answer them, done.

For forum active users, I guess the use-case changes to: Come in, skim
threads, select half a dozen that look interesting in forums you follow,
post to them, get notified when answer get made on them, repeat the day
after. I'd be very surprised to learn that anyone other than perhaps
Quim, Reggie and Roger follow all of the threads that are created on tmo.

Mailing lists, in the other hand, favour persistent data and batch
processing. There is an expectation of people subscribed to mailing
lists that they read everything (at least, mail headers). People save
interesting threads for later. Archives are searchable, browsable, and
serve as reference for past discussion. If you work on something where
you need hours straight of concentration, email is better. You download
all your mail when you want, read it when you want, answer questions
when you want. And ignore it when you want.

If people discuss important things with long-term decisions being made
on tmo, then the same expectation will apply there - and that takes, in
my mind, too much commitment.

It's easy to imagine coming back from 4 weeks holidays & catching up
with maemo-community & maemo-devel. It'd take a few of days, but it's
possible. Imagine coming back from 2 or 4 weeks holiday and having to
catch up with all the important threads on tmo. Impossible!

Cheers,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

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dneary at maemo

Dec 1, 2009, 9:01 AM

Post #14 of 25 (2220 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi Randall,

Randall Arnold wrote:
> The way I see it the decisive process needs to be hierarchal, from the
> bottom up:
>
> -Any member submits proposal (solution)
> -Rank and file + council + developers + Nokia employees/contractors
> discuss and vote
> -Council harvests input and narrows options
> -If council can reduce to obvious attainable solution(s), all are
> escalated to actionable party (Nokia, Reggie, council members, et al)
> for implementation
> -If council cannot reach a concrete decision, solution(s) escalated to
> actionable party or parties for ultimate decision (in most cases
> probably Nokia)
>
> Does that sound like what we should be following?

A method which might work (better?) is this:
* Every question gets an owner (designated by council)
* That owner sollicits discussion and proposes a solution based on feedback
* The council and Nokia retain a veto, for reasons such as practicality,
the decision not reflecting consensus, or legal issues.
* In the event of no veto, the decision proposed by the owner is
implemented.

The idea of having one owner is to have one point of decision. This is
the de facto way it works anyway, except right now the owner is the
doer, rather than any council member or group.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
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Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

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texrat at ovi

Dec 1, 2009, 10:06 AM

Post #15 of 25 (2213 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
> ----- Original message -----
> From: "Dave Neary" <dneary [at] maemo>
> To: "List for community development" <maemo-community [at] maemo>
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software
> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 18:01:29 +0100
>
>
> Hi Randall,
>
> Randall Arnold wrote:
> > The way I see it the decisive process needs to be hierarchal, from the
> > bottom up:
> >
> > -Any member submits proposal (solution)
> > -Rank and file + council + developers + Nokia employees/contractors
> > discuss and vote
> > -Council harvests input and narrows options
> > -If council can reduce to obvious attainable solution(s), all are
> > escalated to actionable party (Nokia, Reggie, council members, et al)
> > for implementation
> > -If council cannot reach a concrete decision, solution(s) escalated to
> > actionable party or parties for ultimate decision (in most cases
> > probably Nokia)
> >
> > Does that sound like what we should be following?
>
> A method which might work (better?) is this:
> * Every question gets an owner (designated by council)
> * That owner sollicits discussion and proposes a solution based on feedback
> * The council and Nokia retain a veto, for reasons such as practicality,
> the decision not reflecting consensus, or legal issues.
> * In the event of no veto, the decision proposed by the owner is
> implemented.
>
> The idea of having one owner is to have one point of decision. This is
> the de facto way it works anyway, except right now the owner is the
> doer, rather than any council member or group.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave.

Your proposal is certainly attractive Dave. Simple, direct... the best way to get almost anything implemented.

Obviously now we have a process, by design or default, that is way too heavy on talk, moderate on facilitation and light on implementation. I see best practice as light on talk, moderate on facilitation and heavy on implementation.

I'm concerned that the current post @ Brainstorm / discuss @ tmo process is creating a disconnect that causes confusion and inaction. Just thinking out loud, though, not proposing an alternative (yet).

Personally I have been running myself ragged as a facilitator and frustrated at seeing great proposals stalled. If we can put your process into practice and stick to it I think we have a good way forward.

I'm willing to take ownership of some Brainstorms and in fact already have. So let's get more facilitators/owners into the mix! Fellow council members?

Randy

>
> --
> maemo.org docsmaster
> Email: dneary [at] maemo
> Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
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quim.gil at nokia

Dec 8, 2009, 5:08 AM

Post #16 of 25 (2186 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
To be constructive and practical, a proposal. :)

http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/

ext Valerio Valerio wrote:
> IMO the solution with more potential so far is "#6 Measure existing
> userbase via updates"[3], of course it needs some tweaks[4][5].

There are 3 solutions with significant votes:

Solution #1: Take downloads into account
Solution #2: Take valoration into account
Solution #6: Measure existing userbase via updates

Counting downloads through updates is more efficient than absolute
downloads, so Solution #6 eliminates Solution #1.

We can decide to implement this, and go only for Solution #2 or any
other in case that later on we think it's needed more karma accuracy.

And end of this chapter.

>
> Please keep the discussion on topic.
>
>
> [1] -
> http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
> [2] - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519
> [3] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=325763&postcount=55
> <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=325763&postcount=55>
> [4] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326086&postcount=58
> <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326086&postcount=58>
> [5] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326181&postcount=61
> <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326181&postcount=61>
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Valério Valério
> Maemo Community Council Chair
>
> http://www.valeriovalerio.org
>

--
Quim Gil
open source advocate
Maemo Devices @ Nokia

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vdv100 at gmail

Dec 8, 2009, 6:46 AM

Post #17 of 25 (2179 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Quim Gil <quim.gil [at] nokia> wrote:

> To be constructive and practical, a proposal. :)
>
>
> http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
>
> ext Valerio Valerio wrote:
> > IMO the solution with more potential so far is "#6 Measure existing
> > userbase via updates"[3], of course it needs some tweaks[4][5].
>
> There are 3 solutions with significant votes:
>
> Solution #1: Take downloads into account
> Solution #2: Take valoration into account
> Solution #6: Measure existing userbase via updates
>
> Counting downloads through updates is more efficient than absolute
> downloads, so Solution #6 eliminates Solution #1.
>

according to the maemo.org team is not possible to measure updates directly,
even the download count has a big lag.
The only way to implement solution #6 is measuring the downloads between
versions, but that can be a problem for apps that never receive a update.
I'll think about a alternative to this solution.


> We can decide to implement this, and go only for Solution #2 or any
> other in case that later on we think it's needed more karma accuracy.
>

I like this solution, but the voting system is still broken, I keep
receiving anonymous votes all the time, don't know from where, maybe
maemo-select ? (there's a bug reports about that) .
Also is possible to vote several times in the same app.

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org

>
> And end of this chapter.
>
> >
> > Please keep the discussion on topic.
> >
> >
> > [1] -
> >
> http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
> > [2] - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519
> > [3] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=325763&postcount=55
> > <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=325763&postcount=55>
> > [4] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326086&postcount=58
> > <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326086&postcount=58>
> > [5] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326181&postcount=61
> > <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326181&postcount=61>
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > --
> > Valério Valério
> > Maemo Community Council Chair
> >
> > http://www.valeriovalerio.org
> >
>
> --
> Quim Gil
> open source advocate
> Maemo Devices @ Nokia
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


maemo at csipa

Dec 8, 2009, 7:27 AM

Post #18 of 25 (2185 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
On Tuesday 08 December 2009 15:46:16 Valerio Valerio wrote:
> according to the maemo.org team is not possible to measure updates
> directly, even the download count has a big lag.
> The only way to implement solution #6 is measuring the downloads between
> versions, but that can be a problem for apps that never receive a update.
> I'll think about a alternative to this solution.

First, it would be good to have some stats on what % of applications are we
talking about here ? How many would we actually miss, e.g. is this a 'good
enough' solution ? I mean, in a case like this, there is no method that can
cover 100% of the cases (for example voting completely ignores developers
working on libraries).

Regards,
Attila


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vdv100 at gmail

Dec 8, 2009, 7:33 AM

Post #19 of 25 (2180 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Valerio Valerio <vdv100 [at] gmail> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Quim Gil <quim.gil [at] nokia> wrote:
>
>> To be constructive and practical, a proposal. :)
>>
>>
>> http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
>>
>> ext Valerio Valerio wrote:
>> > IMO the solution with more potential so far is "#6 Measure existing
>> > userbase via updates"[3], of course it needs some tweaks[4][5].
>>
>>
Ok some facts to help the discussion. Using the most popular Maemo5 app as
reference - OMWeather.


> There are 3 solutions with significant votes:
>>
>> Solution #1: Take downloads into account
>>
>
Using 100 downloads = 1 karma point.

OMW has 5204 downloads so 52 points.


> Solution #2: Take valoration into account
>>
>
If [stars] => 3 then karma = [stars] * [votes]

3*52 = 156 karma points.


> Solution #6: Measure existing userbase via updates
>>
>
Using 100 downloads = 1 karma point.

Assuming a user base around ~1000, in the best case 10 points.

Any of these solutions seems better than the current one (max. karma of
42p), but #2 can be unfair for some apps that for some reason the users
don't like, so the best option IMHO is a mixture of #2 and #6.

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org


>> Counting downloads through updates is more efficient than absolute
>> downloads, so Solution #6 eliminates Solution #1.
>>
>
> according to the maemo.org team is not possible to measure updates
> directly, even the download count has a big lag.
> The only way to implement solution #6 is measuring the downloads between
> versions, but that can be a problem for apps that never receive a update.
> I'll think about a alternative to this solution.
>



>
>
>> We can decide to implement this, and go only for Solution #2 or any
>> other in case that later on we think it's needed more karma accuracy.
>>
>
> I like this solution, but the voting system is still broken, I keep
> receiving anonymous votes all the time, don't know from where, maybe
> maemo-select ? (there's a bug reports about that) .
> Also is possible to vote several times in the same app.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Valério Valério
>
> http://www.valeriovalerio.org
>
>>
>> And end of this chapter.
>>
>> >
>> > Please keep the discussion on topic.
>> >
>> >
>> > [1] -
>> >
>> http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/
>> > [2] - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31519
>> > [3] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=325763&postcount=55
>> > <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=325763&postcount=55>
>> > [4] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326086&postcount=58
>> > <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326086&postcount=58>
>> > [5] - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326181&postcount=61
>> > <http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=326181&postcount=61>
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > --
>> > Valério Valério
>> > Maemo Community Council Chair
>> >
>> > http://www.valeriovalerio.org
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Quim Gil
>> open source advocate
>> Maemo Devices @ Nokia
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> maemo-community mailing list
>> maemo-community [at] maemo
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>>
>
>
>
>
>


vdv100 at gmail

Dec 8, 2009, 7:37 AM

Post #20 of 25 (2186 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Attila Csipa <maemo [at] csipa> wrote:

> On Tuesday 08 December 2009 15:46:16 Valerio Valerio wrote:
> > according to the maemo.org team is not possible to measure updates
> > directly, even the download count has a big lag.
> > The only way to implement solution #6 is measuring the downloads between
> > versions, but that can be a problem for apps that never receive a update.
> > I'll think about a alternative to this solution.
>
> First, it would be good to have some stats on what % of applications are we
> talking about here ? How many would we actually miss, e.g. is this a 'good
> enough' solution ? I mean, in a case like this, there is no method that can
> cover 100% of the cases (for example voting completely ignores developers
> working on libraries).
>

All proposed methods ignore libraries, I guess, that's a problem, but I
think we're trying to improve the current system that also ignore libraries.
Perhaps we need another brainstorming for karma for libraries ? :p

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org

>
> Regards,
> Attila
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>


andrew at bleb

Dec 8, 2009, 7:59 AM

Post #21 of 25 (2184 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 17:33, Valerio Valerio <vdv100 [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>
>>> There are 3 solutions with significant votes:
>>>
>>> Solution #1: Take downloads into account
>
> Using 100 downloads = 1 karma point.
> OMW has 5204 downloads so 52 points.
>
>>> Solution #2: Take valoration into account
>
> If [stars] => 3 then karma = [stars] * [votes]
> 3*52 = 156 karma points.
>
>>> Solution #6: Measure existing userbase via updates
>
> Using 100 downloads = 1 karma point.
> Assuming a user base around ~1000, in the best case 10 points.
>
> Any of these solutions seems better than the current one (max. karma of
> 42p), but #2 can be unfair for some apps that for some reason the users
> don't like, so the best option IMHO is a mixture of #2 and #6.

AIUI, the point of changing the metric is to award applications that
continue to be popular. Given the effort made on *application* karma,
shouldn't it be considered as a factor somehow?

The other thing to bear in mind is that any mechanism has to be
instantly computable from raw data due to the way the karma
calculation works (unless another table for historic data could be
used, presumably that exists for /application/ karma, unless it is
recalculated each time?)

How about:

developer karma = average vote * k * application karma

where k = some constant (5-10?). The average vote will be between 0
and 5, and the application karma takes into account downloads, but
diminishes over time. This means that an application which has updates
which are downloaded will be awarded more than an application which
has updates which aren't downloaded.

Cheers,

Andrew

PS. Shouldn't maemo-developers be brought into the loop?
PPS. I've got a limited Internet connection, so apologies if this has
been raised at tmo already. But the discussion on application karma is
here, so the people who understand it most are also here :)

--
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quim.gil at nokia

Dec 8, 2009, 8:49 PM

Post #22 of 25 (2181 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
----- Original message -----
> All proposed methods ignore libraries, I guess, that's a problem, but I
> think we're trying to improve the current system that also ignore
> libraries. Perhaps we need another brainstorming for karma for
> libraries ? :p

Solution 6 based on downloads & updates CAN take libraries in consideration. The server knows when libraries are downloaded and updated, even if such numbers are not presented to end users.

The more we discuss the more I think we should go for Solution 6, find someone to implement it and forget about the rest until someones find that there is still a concrete problem to solve.

--
Quim Gil + N900
open source advocate
Maemo Devices @ Nokia
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quim.gil at nokia

Dec 8, 2009, 11:56 PM

Post #23 of 25 (2181 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> How about:
>
> developer karma = average vote * k * application karma
>
> where k = some constant (5-10?). The average vote will be between 0
> and 5, and the application karma takes into account downloads, but
> diminishes over time. This means that an application which has updates
> which are downloaded will be awarded more than an application which
> has updates which aren't downloaded.

This is interesting. How are the values of application karma? Something
like -5 to +5, 0 to thousands...? I couldn't find the info at
http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Karma_for_applications or
http://wiki.maemo.org/Karma

Note that application karma can go up and down. Is it ok that your
personal karma goes up and down accordingly? Or can it only go up, and
then the karma-down comes from another feature to implement: karma-age
(your karma diminishes as time passes and you don't get new karma).


> PS. Shouldn't maemo-developers be brought into the loop?

There was a chance for Valerio to start this discussion in
maemo-developers. :) After Talk and maemo-community I think we need to
finish this here. Feel free sending an email there directing to the
Brainstorm proposal and the discussion here, though.

--
Quim Gil
open source advocate
Maemo Devices @ Nokia
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samoff at gmail

Dec 9, 2009, 4:39 AM

Post #24 of 25 (2179 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
Hi,

----- Original message -----
> The more we discuss the more I think we should go for Solution 6, find someone
> to implement it and forget about the rest until someones find that there is
> still a concrete problem to solve.
>

I agree. All of this talk/Brainstorming has been good (and interesting), but lets keep it as simple as possible. It is just Karma afterall. ;) But users/downloads seems logical.

Tim

--

http://samoff.com


andrew at bleb

Dec 9, 2009, 6:13 AM

Post #25 of 25 (2187 views)
Permalink
Re: [Proposal] - Developers should get karma based on the relevance of their software [In reply to]
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 07:56, Quim Gil <quim.gil [at] nokia> wrote:
> ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
>> How about:
>>
>>    developer karma = average vote * k * application karma
>>
>> where k = some constant (5-10?). The average vote will be between 0
>> and 5, and the application karma takes into account downloads, but
>> diminishes over time. This means that an application which has updates
>> which are downloaded will be awarded more than an application which
>> has updates which aren't downloaded.
>
> This is interesting. How are the values of application karma? Something
> like -5 to +5, 0 to thousands...? I couldn't find the info at
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Karma_for_applications or
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Karma

I'm trying to determine it. IIRC, it is in the range of 0-1.0.

> Note that application karma can go up and down. Is it ok that your
> personal karma goes up and down accordingly? Or can it only go up, and
> then the karma-down comes from another feature to implement: karma-age
> (your karma diminishes as time passes and you don't get new karma).

Given that the karma multipliers seem to be changed arbitrarily
without any prior discussion on -community; and bugs cause random
fluctuations this doesn't seem to be the end of the world. Indeed, I'm
still a supporter of karma decaying over time.

Patrik's algorithm, AIUI, is designed to smooth out the peaks and
troughs as well; and has the advantage of already being used on
Downloads to highlight the most popular applications. It seems
intuitive to me that the most popular applications as highlighted at
http://maemo.org/downloads/ are the ones that earn their developers
the most karma.

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew [at] bleb | http://www.bleb.org/
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