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Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO

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matthew at penguinbait

Nov 5, 2009, 6:25 AM

Post #1 of 19 (900 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO

Sorry to all coming in late, Quim requested I push this into the
community list

OK, so again clearly I do not understand the process. As for sprint
meeting themselves, they are held while I am sleeping. I have been
looking for the IRC log of the last meeting but have been unable to find
that yet.

So your saying the only time I can request to find out about a task is
during a sprint meeting? This really seems kind of odd to me? Perhaps
if I had gone to the sprint page and seen and actual status instead of
0% done there would be less confusion. Its obviously more than 0% done
if its already working in development? Of the 29 sprint tasks showing,
4 of them are NOT at 0%. Of those 29, 10 of the tasks have notes, some
more useful than others. It would be nice to get some actual
information about what happening with each task if something is
available. If its white and just standing, I would think there would be
a note telling why it is at a stand still or what its waiting on. It
may be helpful for people who are willing to help out but to not know
your trying to solve something they are experts at. At least it would
help people understand what is actually being worked on and what is
actually sitting doing nothing. I am not saying everyday that the
status (notes) needs to be updated, but perhaps once per week would be
useful. Additionally I don't think that every task owner has to reply
to everybody asking them a question, However, I see nothing wrong with a
council member requesting status of a task outside of the actual sprint
meeting.

Matt Lewis

On 11/05/2009 12:44 AM, Quim Gil wrote:
>
> ext Valerio Valerio wrote:
>
>> HI,
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 10:03 PM, penguinbait<matthew [at] penguinbait
>> <mailto:matthew [at] penguinbait>> wrote:
>>
>> 9.10-03 Implement SSO backend Must indeyets
>> <http://maemo.org/profile/view/indeyets/> 0%
>>
>>
>> I tried to contact indeyets [at] gmail<mailto:indeyets [at] gmail>
>> twice to get a status update but I get no answer.
>>
>>
>> Status updates should be requested at the sprint meetings (last Tuesday).
>>
> Also there is no need to use a private list for public maemo.org tasks.
> maemo-community is good enough to reach all the people involved in the
> maemo.org development.
>
> Nokia creates enough private information: please don't add more
> yourselves! :)
>
> Quim
>
>
>> According to Alexey the code is already in place, but needs a newer
>> version of Midgard. Since we're getting new servers it will only be
>> installed in the new ones. There was a delay in the server migration, so
>> this task got stuck too, so now it only depends on 9.10-07.
>> Those with access to the testing server can test this feature already.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> --
>> Valério Valério
>>
>> http://www.valeriovalerio.org
>>
>> Forgive me if I am still confused by this process. Is this person a
>> maemo employee or someone in the community helping out? This task
>> is staying at 0% and white "just standing" does this mean nothing is
>> being done on it? This seems like one of the biggest issues facing
>> new users, how do we get this moving?
>>
>> Anyone with any info, insight or ideas? Feel free to point out the
>> obvious as I am apparently missing something?
>>
>> Matt Lewis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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dneary at maemo

Nov 5, 2009, 7:59 AM

Post #2 of 19 (871 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

Hi,

penguinbait wrote:
> Sorry to all coming in late, Quim requested I push this into the
> community list

Good for him, this is the place for it.

> So your saying the only time I can request to find out about a task is
> during a sprint meeting?

That's not the intention. OK - SCRUM isn't a very good fit for
completely geographically disperse teams - the idea is to have very very
regular sync points, and short bite-sized tasks. SCRUM team members are
supposed to be able to accurately answer the question "what are you
going to do today?"

Monthly meetings are sync points, a way for me (us?) to get feedback
from the council in real time that we're on the right track, working on
things important to you, etc.

If you have any feedback, questions, other tasks to suggest, etc. then
please (and this goes for everyone, not just you), bring them up here,
we'll talk about them. Getting tasks added between sprint meetings is
possible.

> Perhaps
> if I had gone to the sprint page and seen and actual status instead of
> 0% done there would be less confusion. Its obviously more than 0% done
> if its already working in development? Of the 29 sprint tasks showing,
> 4 of them are NOT at 0%. Of those 29, 10 of the tasks have notes, some
> more useful than others.

This seems reasonable to me, 2 days after the sprint meeting. I've been
using the maemork channel on qaiku to talk about what I've been working
on - I'm not going to update the wiki page every day as well - that
would be duplicated effort. Some others have not gotten into the habit
of regular reporting (and I wasn't very good at it when it was in the
wiki either), so asking for updates on things that are important to you
seems like a good way to go for me, as long as you ask nicely.

> I am not saying everyday that the
> status (notes) needs to be updated, but perhaps once per week would be
> useful.

That's pretty much the norm. Maybe less if there really isn't anything
being done with the task. Since we had a sprint meeting this week, I'd
expect the first updates to be arriving sometime next week.

> Additionally I don't think that every task owner has to reply
> to everybody asking them a question, However, I see nothing wrong with a
> council member requesting status of a task outside of the actual sprint
> meeting.

Nor do I. I'd like to see it happen here rather than in private mail,
though, as Quim & Valerio said. And I think it would be nice if people
didn't single out the fact that someone's a Nokia employee in a way that
sounds like "you're not doing your job". A simple request "anyone know
what's happening with this task, please? It's important to me" will be
more effective, I think.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

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matthew at penguinbait

Nov 5, 2009, 10:18 AM

Post #3 of 19 (868 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

I am looking for status update on the SSO task. I have sent two email's
to the task owner with no response. This task has sat at 0% all last
month with no updates on 9.10-03.

Valério Valério wrote

"According to Alexey the code is already in place, but needs a newer
version of Midgard. Since we're getting new servers it will only be
installed in the new ones. There was a delay in the server migration, so
this task got stuck too, so now it only depends on 9.10-07.
Those with access to the testing server can test this feature already."

OK, where should I have gone to find this out without having to ask the
question? Why is this info not on the task in the sprint page, its
clearly available.

OK, so I now go look at 9.10-07
9.10-07 Server migration Must Ferenc
<http://maemo.org/profile/view/feri/> 0% Servers will be available in
November only.

Why will Servers be available in November only? Is there a purchase
your waiting for, a delivery, some code to move, what does this mean?
To me a migration consists of plenty of steps prior to getting a
physical box. I assume ideas and plans for the migration have been
discussed and laid out, wouldn't this be greater than 0%.

I went to the maemork and read, but I don't see anything about these
tasks, nothing informative anyway.

I guess I am looking for a way to actually see whats going on without
asking different people questions about every task in the list. It
would be much cleaner to periodically report status and in one location,
which would also save on mis-communication and perceived attitudes when
people ask questions.

This all stemmed from me trying to get involved to help in any way with
the SSO task as it is VERY important to ME. I finally found out that
the task is actually not 0% and its waiting for another task to
complete. So prior to sending out an email to Ferenc asking if there
was anyway I could help with that task, I decided to find out what the
heck I am supposed to be reading to find this out.

I point this out as I believe I am far from the only one with this
confusion and I think its an obstacle to getting more people involved on
a project or task. Furthermore I really don't think 4-5 edits in a wiki
a month is too much to ask for. Although hating wiki's myself, I am not
against another form to provide status updates, as long as they are
consistent among tasks and easy to find.

As a council member, I believe its my job to get more people and the
right people involved in the tasks that I think benefit the community.
The difficulty became for me finding out what people are working on and
what roadblocks or obstacles are in there way.

While I do not want to become another obstacle to any task, I would like
to see more informative status updates be placed into the Sprint pages.
Especially on any sprint task with the priority of "must".

Matt Lewis

On 11/05/2009 10:59 AM, Dave Neary wrote:
> Hi,
>
> penguinbait wrote:
>
>> Sorry to all coming in late, Quim requested I push this into the
>> community list
>>
> Good for him, this is the place for it.
>
>
>> So your saying the only time I can request to find out about a task is
>> during a sprint meeting?
>>
> That's not the intention. OK - SCRUM isn't a very good fit for
> completely geographically disperse teams - the idea is to have very very
> regular sync points, and short bite-sized tasks. SCRUM team members are
> supposed to be able to accurately answer the question "what are you
> going to do today?"
>
> Monthly meetings are sync points, a way for me (us?) to get feedback
> from the council in real time that we're on the right track, working on
> things important to you, etc.
>
> If you have any feedback, questions, other tasks to suggest, etc. then
> please (and this goes for everyone, not just you), bring them up here,
> we'll talk about them. Getting tasks added between sprint meetings is
> possible.
>
>
>> Perhaps
>> if I had gone to the sprint page and seen and actual status instead of
>> 0% done there would be less confusion. Its obviously more than 0% done
>> if its already working in development? Of the 29 sprint tasks showing,
>> 4 of them are NOT at 0%. Of those 29, 10 of the tasks have notes, some
>> more useful than others.
>>
> This seems reasonable to me, 2 days after the sprint meeting. I've been
> using the maemork channel on qaiku to talk about what I've been working
> on - I'm not going to update the wiki page every day as well - that
> would be duplicated effort. Some others have not gotten into the habit
> of regular reporting (and I wasn't very good at it when it was in the
> wiki either), so asking for updates on things that are important to you
> seems like a good way to go for me, as long as you ask nicely.
>
>
>> I am not saying everyday that the
>> status (notes) needs to be updated, but perhaps once per week would be
>> useful.
>>
> That's pretty much the norm. Maybe less if there really isn't anything
> being done with the task. Since we had a sprint meeting this week, I'd
> expect the first updates to be arriving sometime next week.
>
>
>> Additionally I don't think that every task owner has to reply
>> to everybody asking them a question, However, I see nothing wrong with a
>> council member requesting status of a task outside of the actual sprint
>> meeting.
>>
> Nor do I. I'd like to see it happen here rather than in private mail,
> though, as Quim& Valerio said. And I think it would be nice if people
> didn't single out the fact that someone's a Nokia employee in a way that
> sounds like "you're not doing your job". A simple request "anyone know
> what's happening with this task, please? It's important to me" will be
> more effective, I think.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
>

fabricator at cynicalsigns

Nov 5, 2009, 1:22 PM

Post #4 of 19 (863 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

>Hello,
>
>penguinbait wrote:
>>
>> OK, so I now go look at 9.10-07
>> 9.10-07 Server migration Must Ferenc
>> <http://maemo.org/profile/view/feri/> 0% Servers will be available in
>> November only.
>>
>> Why will Servers be available in November only? Is there a purchase
>> your waiting for, a delivery, some code to move, what does this mean?
>> To me a migration consists of plenty of steps prior to getting a
>> physical box. I assume ideas and plans for the migration have been
>> discussed and laid out, wouldn't this be greater than 0%.
>>
>I don't know if all the HW is available at the ISP, but what I was told
>is that they will start putting the machines to the rack, connecting
>cables, setting up firewalls, routers, other network elements in
>November. Why? Probably due to paper work between them an Nokia, perhaps
>some resource scheduling, perhaps delayed purchasing. All the work I did
>regarding migration in October was a meeting with Tero and commenting on
>a preliminary server map written by the ISP (comments: 2-3 sentences in
>an email). I don't consider this a progress, hence 0% reported. For
>obvious reasons we do not review server plans in the public. For other
>reasons the guys from the new ISP will not report progress publicly.
>
>Things started to move forward this week only. Yesterday I sent an email
>about our current server map to the ISP and reported it in #maemork [1].
>Did you miss it?
>
>> I went to the maemork and read, but I don't see anything about these
>> tasks, nothing informative anyway.
>>
>You found nothing about server move, because nothing happened. It is no
>one's fault. I am on alert with a couple of guys and will be installing
>services as soon as we get the machines. The community will hear from
>the progress.
>
>> I guess I am looking for a way to actually see whats going on without
>> asking different people questions about every task in the list. It
>> would be much cleaner to periodically report status and in one location,
>> which would also save on mis-communication and perceived attitudes when
>> people ask questions.
>>
>The #maemork channel [2] on qaiku.com is the place for "semi real time"
>status reporting, isn't it? Personally I don't mind copy-pasting my
>qaiku messages to an email, if somebody would prefer that. I just see no
>added value in it.
>
>> This all stemmed from me trying to get involved to help in any way with
>> the SSO task as it is VERY important to ME. I finally found out that
>> the task is actually not 0% and its waiting for another task to
>> complete. So prior to sending out an email to Ferenc asking if there
>> was anyway I could help with that task, I decided to find out what the
>> heck I am supposed to be reading to find this out.
>>
>SSO: please talk to Daniel [3] and Alexey [4]. I am not involved with
>SSO. One thing for sure: server migration comes without SSO.
>
>> I point this out as I believe I am far from the only one with this
>> confusion and I think its an obstacle to getting more people involved on
>> a project or task. Furthermore I really don't think 4-5 edits in a wiki
>> a month is too much to ask for. Although hating wiki's myself, I am not
>> against another form to provide status updates, as long as they are
>> consistent among tasks and easy to find.
>>
>I always report _if_ there is progress made.
>
>> As a council member, I believe its my job to get more people and the
>> right people involved in the tasks that I think benefit the community.
>> The difficulty became for me finding out what people are working on and
>> what roadblocks or obstacles are in there way.
>>
>Sure thing, I know the rules. Talking about myself only: I am happy to
>inform you, or anybody about my tasks, progress, whatever related to
>Maemo. I did not receive many questions about my activities in the past,
>maybe this will change now. No problem, I will be happy answering your
>questions. If I am not able to answer I will tell you whom else to
>contact ;)
>
>> While I do not want to become another obstacle to any task, I would like
>> to see more informative status updates be placed into the Sprint pages.
>> Especially on any sprint task with the priority of "must".
>>
>Agreed.
>
>>
>> Matt Lewis
>>
>Br,
>ferenc
>
>[1]
>http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1dec9b12cc931c8c9b111dea843f156
>1d5250d250d2/
>
>[2] maemork - status reports from maemo staff
>http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork
>
>[3] Daniel's maemo profile
>http://maemo.org/profile/view/danielwilms/
>
>[4] Alexey's maemo profile
>http://maemo.org/profile/view/indeyets/
>

Ferenc, thanks very much for that, extremely helpful at least for me (I was not part of original discussion). Your time is appreciated.

Randy (Texrat)
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ferenc at maemo

Nov 5, 2009, 2:04 PM

Post #5 of 19 (871 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

Hello,

penguinbait wrote:
>
> OK, so I now go look at 9.10-07
> 9.10-07 Server migration Must Ferenc
> <http://maemo.org/profile/view/feri/> 0% Servers will be available in
> November only.
>
> Why will Servers be available in November only? Is there a purchase
> your waiting for, a delivery, some code to move, what does this mean?
> To me a migration consists of plenty of steps prior to getting a
> physical box. I assume ideas and plans for the migration have been
> discussed and laid out, wouldn't this be greater than 0%.
>
I don't know if all the HW is available at the ISP, but what I was told
is that they will start putting the machines to the rack, connecting
cables, setting up firewalls, routers, other network elements in
November. Why? Probably due to paper work between them an Nokia, perhaps
some resource scheduling, perhaps delayed purchasing. All the work I did
regarding migration in October was a meeting with Tero and commenting on
a preliminary server map written by the ISP (comments: 2-3 sentences in
an email). I don't consider this a progress, hence 0% reported. For
obvious reasons we do not review server plans in the public. For other
reasons the guys from the new ISP will not report progress publicly.

Things started to move forward this week only. Yesterday I sent an email
about our current server map to the ISP and reported it in #maemork [1].
Did you miss it?

> I went to the maemork and read, but I don't see anything about these
> tasks, nothing informative anyway.
>
You found nothing about server move, because nothing happened. It is no
one's fault. I am on alert with a couple of guys and will be installing
services as soon as we get the machines. The community will hear from
the progress.

> I guess I am looking for a way to actually see whats going on without
> asking different people questions about every task in the list. It
> would be much cleaner to periodically report status and in one location,
> which would also save on mis-communication and perceived attitudes when
> people ask questions.
>
The #maemork channel [2] on qaiku.com is the place for "semi real time"
status reporting, isn't it? Personally I don't mind copy-pasting my
qaiku messages to an email, if somebody would prefer that. I just see no
added value in it.

> This all stemmed from me trying to get involved to help in any way with
> the SSO task as it is VERY important to ME. I finally found out that
> the task is actually not 0% and its waiting for another task to
> complete. So prior to sending out an email to Ferenc asking if there
> was anyway I could help with that task, I decided to find out what the
> heck I am supposed to be reading to find this out.
>
SSO: please talk to Daniel [3] and Alexey [4]. I am not involved with
SSO. One thing for sure: server migration comes without SSO.

> I point this out as I believe I am far from the only one with this
> confusion and I think its an obstacle to getting more people involved on
> a project or task. Furthermore I really don't think 4-5 edits in a wiki
> a month is too much to ask for. Although hating wiki's myself, I am not
> against another form to provide status updates, as long as they are
> consistent among tasks and easy to find.
>
I always report _if_ there is progress made.

> As a council member, I believe its my job to get more people and the
> right people involved in the tasks that I think benefit the community.
> The difficulty became for me finding out what people are working on and
> what roadblocks or obstacles are in there way.
>
Sure thing, I know the rules. Talking about myself only: I am happy to
inform you, or anybody about my tasks, progress, whatever related to
Maemo. I did not receive many questions about my activities in the past,
maybe this will change now. No problem, I will be happy answering your
questions. If I am not able to answer I will tell you whom else to
contact ;)

> While I do not want to become another obstacle to any task, I would like
> to see more informative status updates be placed into the Sprint pages.
> Especially on any sprint task with the priority of "must".
>
Agreed.

>
> Matt Lewis
>
Br,
ferenc

[1]
http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1dec9b12cc931c8c9b111dea843f1561d5250d250d2/

[2] maemork - status reports from maemo staff
http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork

[3] Daniel's maemo profile
http://maemo.org/profile/view/danielwilms/

[4] Alexey's maemo profile
http://maemo.org/profile/view/indeyets/

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

matthew at penguinbait

Nov 5, 2009, 2:07 PM

Post #6 of 19 (869 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

Thank you Ferenc.

On 11/05/2009 05:04 PM, Ferenc Szekely wrote:
Things started to move forward this week only. Yesterday I sent an email
about our current server map to the ISP and reported it in #maemork [1].
Did you miss it?

http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1dec9b12cc931c8c9b111dea843f1561d5250d250d2/

I actually did not miss it, however I just don't know what that means in the scope of the project, so it really means nothing to me? That's what I am trying to convey. Is there a delivery date? Are there anticipated tasks? Is this one of them? -> "Sent out a doc about current servers to the new ISP. This should help them planning. 9.10-07" I understand you cannot share all details of what you may be working on, I guess I am looking for perhaps a timeline for each of the tasks?

I am not trying to pick on Ferenc, he was just the next task on the list I was sent to. Since SSO cannot be implemented until migration to the new server and upgrade of migard is complete.

Again I was only looking for a way to find out whats going on and if I could help in any way. I am not trying to pick on anyone or point any fingers, I am just wondering if there is a better way to report sprint tasks? I think any priority "MUST" task should have a timeline or at least an anticipated completion date? If your waiting for another task to complete before your task can continue, you should have a timeline or an amount of days needed to complete your task once the other task is completed.

How do you know when anything is going to be done or if its behind schedule? How do I know if 5% of a sprint task is 1 day or 10 days. Maybe you have this information its just not published? Maybe I am just looking at this the wrong way?

Matt Lewis

On 11/05/2009 05:04 PM, Ferenc Szekely wrote:
> Hello,
>
> penguinbait wrote:
>
>> OK, so I now go look at 9.10-07
>> 9.10-07 Server migration Must Ferenc
>> <http://maemo.org/profile/view/feri/> 0% Servers will be available in
>> November only.
>>
>> Why will Servers be available in November only? Is there a purchase
>> your waiting for, a delivery, some code to move, what does this mean?
>> To me a migration consists of plenty of steps prior to getting a
>> physical box. I assume ideas and plans for the migration have been
>> discussed and laid out, wouldn't this be greater than 0%.
>>
>>
> I don't know if all the HW is available at the ISP, but what I was told
> is that they will start putting the machines to the rack, connecting
> cables, setting up firewalls, routers, other network elements in
> November. Why? Probably due to paper work between them an Nokia, perhaps
> some resource scheduling, perhaps delayed purchasing. All the work I did
> regarding migration in October was a meeting with Tero and commenting on
> a preliminary server map written by the ISP (comments: 2-3 sentences in
> an email). I don't consider this a progress, hence 0% reported. For
> obvious reasons we do not review server plans in the public. For other
> reasons the guys from the new ISP will not report progress publicly.
>
> Things started to move forward this week only. Yesterday I sent an email
> about our current server map to the ISP and reported it in #maemork [1].
> Did you miss it?
>
>
>> I went to the maemork and read, but I don't see anything about these
>> tasks, nothing informative anyway.
>>
>>
> You found nothing about server move, because nothing happened. It is no
> one's fault. I am on alert with a couple of guys and will be installing
> services as soon as we get the machines. The community will hear from
> the progress.
>
>
>> I guess I am looking for a way to actually see whats going on without
>> asking different people questions about every task in the list. It
>> would be much cleaner to periodically report status and in one location,
>> which would also save on mis-communication and perceived attitudes when
>> people ask questions.
>>
>>
> The #maemork channel [2] on qaiku.com is the place for "semi real time"
> status reporting, isn't it? Personally I don't mind copy-pasting my
> qaiku messages to an email, if somebody would prefer that. I just see no
> added value in it.
>
>
>> This all stemmed from me trying to get involved to help in any way with
>> the SSO task as it is VERY important to ME. I finally found out that
>> the task is actually not 0% and its waiting for another task to
>> complete. So prior to sending out an email to Ferenc asking if there
>> was anyway I could help with that task, I decided to find out what the
>> heck I am supposed to be reading to find this out.
>>
>>
> SSO: please talk to Daniel [3] and Alexey [4]. I am not involved with
> SSO. One thing for sure: server migration comes without SSO.
>
>
>> I point this out as I believe I am far from the only one with this
>> confusion and I think its an obstacle to getting more people involved on
>> a project or task. Furthermore I really don't think 4-5 edits in a wiki
>> a month is too much to ask for. Although hating wiki's myself, I am not
>> against another form to provide status updates, as long as they are
>> consistent among tasks and easy to find.
>>
>>
> I always report _if_ there is progress made.
>
>
>> As a council member, I believe its my job to get more people and the
>> right people involved in the tasks that I think benefit the community.
>> The difficulty became for me finding out what people are working on and
>> what roadblocks or obstacles are in there way.
>>
>>
> Sure thing, I know the rules. Talking about myself only: I am happy to
> inform you, or anybody about my tasks, progress, whatever related to
> Maemo. I did not receive many questions about my activities in the past,
> maybe this will change now. No problem, I will be happy answering your
> questions. If I am not able to answer I will tell you whom else to
> contact ;)
>
>
>> While I do not want to become another obstacle to any task, I would like
>> to see more informative status updates be placed into the Sprint pages.
>> Especially on any sprint task with the priority of "must".
>>
>>
> Agreed.
>
>
>> Matt Lewis
>>
>>
> Br,
> ferenc
>
> [1]
> http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1dec9b12cc931c8c9b111dea843f1561d5250d250d2/
>
> [2] maemork - status reports from maemo staff
> http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork
>
> [3] Daniel's maemo profile
> http://maemo.org/profile/view/danielwilms/
>
> [4] Alexey's maemo profile
> http://maemo.org/profile/view/indeyets/
>
>

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

qole.tablet at gmail

Nov 5, 2009, 2:20 PM

Post #7 of 19 (879 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

Thanks, penguinbait.

I have also struggled to follow what is happening regarding the sprints.

It can be frustrating to see 0% tasks with no comments for me too.

At the very least, could the qaiku #maemork comments always have the task
ID? I think non-task "business as usual" (BAU) shouldn't be tagged #maemork.
Perhaps a separate channel for task related and non-task related comments?

I'm not really concerned that the paid maemo people are keeping busy. I want
to see comments on tasks, and non-task comments in the channel are just
"noise" to me.

How about #maemosprint as a channel for task-only comments? #maemork can be
kept more general... What's going on in your workday: #maemork, What's going
on in a sprint task: #maemosprint

Can you use multiple tags in Qaiku?

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:07 PM, penguinbait <matthew [at] penguinbait> wrote:

> Thank you Ferenc.
>
>
> On 11/05/2009 05:04 PM, Ferenc Szekely wrote:
> Things started to move forward this week only. Yesterday I sent an email
> about our current server map to the ISP and reported it in #maemork [1].
> Did you miss it?
>
>
> http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1dec9b12cc931c8c9b111dea843f1561d5250d250d2/
>
>
> I actually did not miss it, however I just don't know what that means in
> the scope of the project, so it really means nothing to me? That's what I
> am trying to convey. Is there a delivery date? Are there anticipated
> tasks? Is this one of them? -> "Sent out a doc about current servers to the
> new ISP. This should help them planning. 9.10-07" I understand you cannot
> share all details of what you may be working on, I guess I am looking for
> perhaps a timeline for each of the tasks?
>
> I am not trying to pick on Ferenc, he was just the next task on the list I
> was sent to. Since SSO cannot be implemented until migration to the new
> server and upgrade of migard is complete.
>
> Again I was only looking for a way to find out whats going on and if I
> could help in any way. I am not trying to pick on anyone or point any
> fingers, I am just wondering if there is a better way to report sprint
> tasks? I think any priority "MUST" task should have a timeline or at least
> an anticipated completion date? If your waiting for another task to
> complete before your task can continue, you should have a timeline or an
> amount of days needed to complete your task once the other task is
> completed.
>
> How do you know when anything is going to be done or if its behind
> schedule? How do I know if 5% of a sprint task is 1 day or 10 days. Maybe
> you have this information its just not published? Maybe I am just looking at
> this the wrong way?
>
>
> Matt Lewis
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/05/2009 05:04 PM, Ferenc Szekely wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > penguinbait wrote:
> >
> >> OK, so I now go look at 9.10-07
> >> 9.10-07 Server migration Must Ferenc
> >> <http://maemo.org/profile/view/feri/> 0% Servers will be
> available in
> >> November only.
> >>
> >> Why will Servers be available in November only? Is there a purchase
> >> your waiting for, a delivery, some code to move, what does this mean?
> >> To me a migration consists of plenty of steps prior to getting a
> >> physical box. I assume ideas and plans for the migration have been
> >> discussed and laid out, wouldn't this be greater than 0%.
> >>
> >>
> > I don't know if all the HW is available at the ISP, but what I was told
> > is that they will start putting the machines to the rack, connecting
> > cables, setting up firewalls, routers, other network elements in
> > November. Why? Probably due to paper work between them an Nokia, perhaps
> > some resource scheduling, perhaps delayed purchasing. All the work I did
> > regarding migration in October was a meeting with Tero and commenting on
> > a preliminary server map written by the ISP (comments: 2-3 sentences in
> > an email). I don't consider this a progress, hence 0% reported. For
> > obvious reasons we do not review server plans in the public. For other
> > reasons the guys from the new ISP will not report progress publicly.
> >
> > Things started to move forward this week only. Yesterday I sent an email
> > about our current server map to the ISP and reported it in #maemork [1].
> > Did you miss it?
> >
> >
> >> I went to the maemork and read, but I don't see anything about these
> >> tasks, nothing informative anyway.
> >>
> >>
> > You found nothing about server move, because nothing happened. It is no
> > one's fault. I am on alert with a couple of guys and will be installing
> > services as soon as we get the machines. The community will hear from
> > the progress.
> >
> >
> >> I guess I am looking for a way to actually see whats going on without
> >> asking different people questions about every task in the list. It
> >> would be much cleaner to periodically report status and in one location,
> >> which would also save on mis-communication and perceived attitudes when
> >> people ask questions.
> >>
> >>
> > The #maemork channel [2] on qaiku.com is the place for "semi real time"
> > status reporting, isn't it? Personally I don't mind copy-pasting my
> > qaiku messages to an email, if somebody would prefer that. I just see no
> > added value in it.
> >
> >
> >> This all stemmed from me trying to get involved to help in any way with
> >> the SSO task as it is VERY important to ME. I finally found out that
> >> the task is actually not 0% and its waiting for another task to
> >> complete. So prior to sending out an email to Ferenc asking if there
> >> was anyway I could help with that task, I decided to find out what the
> >> heck I am supposed to be reading to find this out.
> >>
> >>
> > SSO: please talk to Daniel [3] and Alexey [4]. I am not involved with
> > SSO. One thing for sure: server migration comes without SSO.
> >
> >
> >> I point this out as I believe I am far from the only one with this
> >> confusion and I think its an obstacle to getting more people involved on
> >> a project or task. Furthermore I really don't think 4-5 edits in a wiki
> >> a month is too much to ask for. Although hating wiki's myself, I am not
> >> against another form to provide status updates, as long as they are
> >> consistent among tasks and easy to find.
> >>
> >>
> > I always report _if_ there is progress made.
> >
> >
> >> As a council member, I believe its my job to get more people and the
> >> right people involved in the tasks that I think benefit the community.
> >> The difficulty became for me finding out what people are working on and
> >> what roadblocks or obstacles are in there way.
> >>
> >>
> > Sure thing, I know the rules. Talking about myself only: I am happy to
> > inform you, or anybody about my tasks, progress, whatever related to
> > Maemo. I did not receive many questions about my activities in the past,
> > maybe this will change now. No problem, I will be happy answering your
> > questions. If I am not able to answer I will tell you whom else to
> > contact ;)
> >
> >
> >> While I do not want to become another obstacle to any task, I would like
> >> to see more informative status updates be placed into the Sprint pages.
> >> Especially on any sprint task with the priority of "must".
> >>
> >>
> > Agreed.
> >
> >
> >> Matt Lewis
> >>
> >>
> > Br,
> > ferenc
> >
> > [1]
> >
> http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1dec9b12cc931c8c9b111dea843f1561d5250d250d2/
> >
> > [2] maemork - status reports from maemo staff
> > http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork
> >
> > [3] Daniel's maemo profile
> > http://maemo.org/profile/view/danielwilms/
> >
> > [4] Alexey's maemo profile
> > http://maemo.org/profile/view/indeyets/
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>

--
enthusiast, n. "One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what
engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an ardent
and imaginative person."

andrew at bleb

Nov 5, 2009, 2:28 PM

Post #8 of 19 (871 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

On 11/5/09, penguinbait <matthew [at] penguinbait> wrote:
>
[snip lots]
>
> Again I was only looking for a way to find out whats going on and if I could
> help in any way. I am not trying to pick on anyone or point any fingers, I
> am just wondering if there is a better way to report sprint tasks? I think
> any priority "MUST" task should have a timeline or at least an anticipated
> completion date?

I've not time (nor inclination as I'm trying to take a back seat) to get into this fully but there *is* "an anticpated completion date" for every MUST & SHOULD task: the end of the period.

The point of an agile process is to give task ownership to an individual within a 4 week period; how they manage that time is up to them. However, it expected that an anticipated failure should be raised ASAP (something we've not been very good at).

> How do I know if 5% of a sprint task is 1 day or 10 days.

The problem is whether you record man-days vs. expected elapsed time; how you deal with BAU - or unexpected events and estimation of tasks qhich may never have been done before.

The idea behind giving ownership is that a person tasked with something will do it better, and more efficiently, than if being micro-managed on a day-to-day basis. This is particularly true in creative & professional arenas such as ours.

Other random thoughts on any process changes:

* It has to be consensual. The council does NOT have the
power to say "do this (and _kneel_ before Zod)".
The council represents the community, but the paid
contributors and Nokia are on (at-least) equal footings.

* The process shouldn't be overly burdensome for unpaid
contributors, or they'll be driven away.

* The process for paid and unpaid contributors should be
practically the same, to prevent a "them and us"
mentality arising.

Cheers,

Andrew

PS. FWIW, unless anything's changed, the first stage of SSO is moving the "shared signon" systems to be "single signon" (e.g. garage, Midgard, Bugzilla etc.). This'd exclude tmo.

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew [at] bleb | http://www.bleb.org/

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
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vdv100 at gmail

Nov 5, 2009, 3:04 PM

Post #9 of 19 (869 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

Hi,

I agree with some of your points, special Alan's idea of add the task ID's
in the Qaiku's. Also agree that task owners should change the task status
more often or at least before the meetings, more than that is too much IMHO.

I trust people, as long they report back in the end of the month is enough
for me, besides that I can found any of the task owners in IRC and ask about
the tasks. We really want more than that ? Would people care about other
kind of reports ? Don't think so.
We should let people do the actual work and discard boring things like long
reports.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 10:07 PM, penguinbait <matthew [at] penguinbait>wrote:

> Thank you Ferenc.
>
>
>
> On 11/05/2009 05:04 PM, Ferenc Szekely wrote:
> Things started to move forward this week only. Yesterday I sent an email
> about our current server map to the ISP and reported it in #maemork [1].
> Did you miss it?
>
>
> http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1dec9b12cc931c8c9b111dea843f1561d5250d250d2/
>
>
> I actually did not miss it, however I just don't know what that means in
> the scope of the project, so it really means nothing to me? That's what I
> am trying to convey. Is there a delivery date? Are there anticipated
> tasks? Is this one of them? -> "Sent out a doc about current servers to the
> new ISP. This should help them planning. 9.10-07" I understand you cannot
> share all details of what you may be working on, I guess I am looking for
> perhaps a timeline for each of the tasks?
>

Don't see any relevance in the info above for the community, this is
internal stuff. IMHO we should try to avoid the 'boss role' at any cost.

>
> I am not trying to pick on Ferenc, he was just the next task on the list I
> was sent to. Since SSO cannot be implemented until migration to the new
> server and upgrade of migard is complete.
>
> Again I was only looking for a way to find out whats going on and if I
> could help in any way. I am not trying to pick on anyone or point any
> fingers, I am just wondering if there is a better way to report sprint
> tasks? I think any priority "MUST" task should have a timeline or at least
> an anticipated completion date? If your waiting for another task to
> complete before your task can continue, you should have a timeline or an
> amount of days needed to complete your task once the other task is
> completed.
>

There's a lot of tasks where you can help (and other community members as
well), but this one ? Where you think you can help ? Perhaps we can point
you to the right place to help on that :).

>
> How do you know when anything is going to be done or if its behind
> schedule?

Again "boss role", there's a lot of factors that can delay a task, I think
people know how to prioritize his work.

IMHO people interested in take tasks or help in some particular task should
attend the meetings or discuss the task before the meeting, or even just do
the task, no need to be in the sprint page, anyone can help. It's bad make
pressure on people, we're all in the same boat and should work all in the
same direction.

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org

How do I know if 5% of a sprint task is 1 day or 10 days. Maybe you have
> this information its just not published? Maybe I am just looking at this the
> wrong way?
>
>
> Matt Lewis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/05/2009 05:04 PM, Ferenc Szekely wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> penguinbait wrote:
>>
>>
>>> OK, so I now go look at 9.10-07
>>> 9.10-07 Server migration Must Ferenc
>>> <http://maemo.org/profile/view/feri/> 0% Servers will be
>>> available in
>>> November only.
>>>
>>> Why will Servers be available in November only? Is there a purchase
>>> your waiting for, a delivery, some code to move, what does this mean?
>>> To me a migration consists of plenty of steps prior to getting a
>>> physical box. I assume ideas and plans for the migration have been
>>> discussed and laid out, wouldn't this be greater than 0%.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I don't know if all the HW is available at the ISP, but what I was told
>> is that they will start putting the machines to the rack, connecting
>> cables, setting up firewalls, routers, other network elements in
>> November. Why? Probably due to paper work between them an Nokia, perhaps
>> some resource scheduling, perhaps delayed purchasing. All the work I did
>> regarding migration in October was a meeting with Tero and commenting on
>> a preliminary server map written by the ISP (comments: 2-3 sentences in
>> an email). I don't consider this a progress, hence 0% reported. For
>> obvious reasons we do not review server plans in the public. For other
>> reasons the guys from the new ISP will not report progress publicly.
>>
>> Things started to move forward this week only. Yesterday I sent an email
>> about our current server map to the ISP and reported it in #maemork [1].
>> Did you miss it?
>>
>>
>>
>>> I went to the maemork and read, but I don't see anything about these
>>> tasks, nothing informative anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> You found nothing about server move, because nothing happened. It is no
>> one's fault. I am on alert with a couple of guys and will be installing
>> services as soon as we get the machines. The community will hear from
>> the progress.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I guess I am looking for a way to actually see whats going on without
>>> asking different people questions about every task in the list. It
>>> would be much cleaner to periodically report status and in one location,
>>> which would also save on mis-communication and perceived attitudes when
>>> people ask questions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> The #maemork channel [2] on qaiku.com is the place for "semi real time"
>> status reporting, isn't it? Personally I don't mind copy-pasting my
>> qaiku messages to an email, if somebody would prefer that. I just see no
>> added value in it.
>>
>>
>>
>>> This all stemmed from me trying to get involved to help in any way with
>>> the SSO task as it is VERY important to ME. I finally found out that
>>> the task is actually not 0% and its waiting for another task to
>>> complete. So prior to sending out an email to Ferenc asking if there
>>> was anyway I could help with that task, I decided to find out what the
>>> heck I am supposed to be reading to find this out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> SSO: please talk to Daniel [3] and Alexey [4]. I am not involved with
>> SSO. One thing for sure: server migration comes without SSO.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I point this out as I believe I am far from the only one with this
>>> confusion and I think its an obstacle to getting more people involved on
>>> a project or task. Furthermore I really don't think 4-5 edits in a wiki
>>> a month is too much to ask for. Although hating wiki's myself, I am not
>>> against another form to provide status updates, as long as they are
>>> consistent among tasks and easy to find.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I always report _if_ there is progress made.
>>
>>
>>
>>> As a council member, I believe its my job to get more people and the
>>> right people involved in the tasks that I think benefit the community.
>>> The difficulty became for me finding out what people are working on and
>>> what roadblocks or obstacles are in there way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Sure thing, I know the rules. Talking about myself only: I am happy to
>> inform you, or anybody about my tasks, progress, whatever related to
>> Maemo. I did not receive many questions about my activities in the past,
>> maybe this will change now. No problem, I will be happy answering your
>> questions. If I am not able to answer I will tell you whom else to
>> contact ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>> While I do not want to become another obstacle to any task, I would like
>>> to see more informative status updates be placed into the Sprint pages.
>>> Especially on any sprint task with the priority of "must".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Matt Lewis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Br,
>> ferenc
>>
>> [1]
>>
>> http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1dec9b12cc931c8c9b111dea843f1561d5250d250d2/
>>
>> [2] maemork - status reports from maemo staff
>> http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork
>>
>> [3] Daniel's maemo profile
>> http://maemo.org/profile/view/danielwilms/
>>
>> [4] Alexey's maemo profile
>> http://maemo.org/profile/view/indeyets/
>>
>>
>>
>
>

jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Nov 5, 2009, 3:17 PM

Post #10 of 19 (871 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

On Nov 5, 2009, at 23:20, Qole wrote:

> Thanks, penguinbait.
>
> I have also struggled to follow what is happening regarding the
> sprints.
>
> It can be frustrating to see 0% tasks with no comments for me too.
>
> At the very least, could the qaiku #maemork comments always have the
> task ID? I think non-task "business as usual" (BAU) shouldn't be
> tagged #maemork. Perhaps a separate channel for task related and non-
> task related comments?

BAU I think is useful for communicating to other people internally
what one is doing. Often there are 'blockers', i.e. one waits for
someone to do A before you can do B. Like I'm watching as the servers
are being installed before I start testing tools for repo management.

You can search Qaiku based on a specific tag, say 9.10-07, which is
the server ISP sprint item:
http://www.qaiku.com/search/result/Y29tX3JvaGVhX3NpbXBsZXNlYXJjaA==/1/9.10-07/

As you can see, you get results about that specific item and that
might be a good way to keep track of that sprint in addition to
keeping notes on the wiki.

I agree that we need to keep better notes on the wiki, but some of
this is new to people and some of this is reported elsewhere. I think
if we had a way to communicate workflow to new council members so they
new what to expect that would be helpful too - I imagine a lot of this
is pretty cryptic to those who have not helped design the process.

Some good comments about micromanaging in this email thread! In my
experience micromanagement seldom leads to the results one hopes for.
That said, the process not immutable and improvements possible.

Jeremiah

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
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https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

qole.tablet at gmail

Nov 5, 2009, 3:55 PM

Post #11 of 19 (872 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah [at] jeremiahfoster
> wrote:

> BAU I think is useful for communicating to other people internally
> what one is doing. Often there are 'blockers', i.e. one waits for
> someone to do A before you can do B. Like I'm watching as the servers
> are being installed before I start testing tools for repo management.
>

I think things that are task-blockers should probably not be BAU tasks. They
should be part of a task themselves.

You can search Qaiku based on a specific tag, say 9.10-07, which is
> the server ISP sprint item:
>
> http://www.qaiku.com/search/result/Y29tX3JvaGVhX3NpbXBsZXNlYXJjaA==/1/9.10-07/

THAT IS COOL.

I've been wondering how to get task-specific searches in Qaiku. So now we
need to link those searches to the wiki, so that those comments are clearly
connected to their task.

--
enthusiast, n. "One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what
engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an ardent
and imaginative person."

quim.gil at nokia

Nov 6, 2009, 12:12 AM

Post #12 of 19 (866 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

ext Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> BAU I think is useful for communicating to other people internally
> what one is doing.

At the end of the month I invest plenty more tasks in BAU than in
assigned tasks. Normally they are things that just come are need to be
done. Or things that come and go in one shot.

My BAUs are things that were taking time that I initially assigned for
my community tasks, or something like that. Not even need to find a
sudden blocker.

I should post more BAU things myself as I see them useful in others'
people's posts. Much better a BAU notice than silence for one day, not
knowing whether the guy was absent or just forgetting to report.

--
Quim Gil
open source advocate
Maemo Devices @ Nokia
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

quim.gil at nokia

Nov 6, 2009, 12:17 AM

Post #13 of 19 (868 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

ext Valerio Valerio wrote:
> I trust people, as long they report back in the end of the month is
> enough for me, besides that I can found any of the task owners in IRC
> and ask about the tasks. We really want more than that ? Would people
> care about other kind of reports ? Don't think so.

Considering that most of these contributors are getting paid for doing
their work yes, we want to know as much as possible as long as they
don't end up investing more time reporting than working. :) A couple of
lines a day is not too much to ask when you're getting paid nâ‚¬ the hour.
It really makes the difference between knowing that someone is working
that day on maemo.org or doing something else, specially if the person
is not regularly active in other channels.

About 100% volunteers sure enough, that's a different question and it's
totally fine not to demand the same frequency and level of reporting.

--
Quim Gil
open source advocate
Maemo Devices @ Nokia

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Nov 6, 2009, 4:48 AM

Post #14 of 19 (867 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

On Nov 6, 2009, at 24:55, Qole wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah [at] jeremiahfoster
> > wrote:
> BAU I think is useful for communicating to other people internally
> what one is doing. Often there are 'blockers', i.e. one waits for
> someone to do A before you can do B. Like I'm watching as the servers
> are being installed before I start testing tools for repo management.
>
> I think things that are task-blockers should probably not be BAU
> tasks. They should be part of a task themselves.

Hmm, I think I agree with you. That makes sense. We should include the
task numbers even if they just are related to BAU, might make things
clearer.

>
> You can search Qaiku based on a specific tag, say 9.10-07, which is
> the server ISP sprint item:
> http://www.qaiku.com/search/result/Y29tX3JvaGVhX3NpbXBsZXNlYXJjaA==/1/9.10-07/
>
> THAT IS COOL.
>
> I've been wondering how to get task-specific searches in Qaiku. So
> now we need to link those searches to the wiki, so that those
> comments are clearly connected to their task.

Perhaps we put a link to the search in the notes?

Jeremiah

fabricator at cynicalsigns

Nov 6, 2009, 7:13 AM

Post #15 of 19 (867 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

>
>
>ext Valerio Valerio wrote:
>> I trust people, as long they report back in the end of the month is
>> enough for me, besides that I can found any of the task owners in IRC
>> and ask about the tasks. We really want more than that ? Would people
>> care about other kind of reports ? Don't think so.
>
>Considering that most of these contributors are getting paid for doing
>their work yes, we want to know as much as possible as long as they
>don't end up investing more time reporting than working. :) A couple of
>lines a day is not too much to ask when you're getting paid nâ‚¬ the hour.
>It really makes the difference between knowing that someone is working
>that day on maemo.org or doing something else, specially if the person
>is not regularly active in other channels.
>
>About 100% volunteers sure enough, that's a different question and it's
>totally fine not to demand the same frequency and level of reporting.
>
>--
>Quim Gil
>open source advocate
>Maemo Devices @ Nokia
>

I have to agree, and in fact I am paying the price currently for lack of reporting in my current employment. My boss will work on things and not tell me, leading me to start working on the same items, wasting time. Even worse, that same scenario plays out across the entire organzation, to where I can safely say that 50% of anyone's time is utterly wasted.

Let's try to avoid that.

But to Valerio's point, reporting CAN consume an unreasonable amount of a person's time IF it isn't automated as much as reasonable possible, or requires too many hoops.

To that extent, I think the suggestions so far are reasonable. It would be great if more automation could be implemented, but in some cases it's sheer human judgment (like in my current task) so in the end we depend on people taking a brief moment to update things. Ultimately it serves everyone, even the reporter, because you can save time downstream by not having to answer so many questions. ; )

Randy
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matthew at penguinbait

Nov 6, 2009, 7:31 AM

Post #16 of 19 (864 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

I have to somewhat agree with Andrew Flegg, as I did not intend to make
more work for anyone. And these adults with jobs don't need to tell me
every task they are doing. This all stemmed from MY confusion over the
sprint process. I did not realize the tasks were supposed to be
completed by the end of each month. Which is why I was looking for
status updates. However without a detailed project plan, updates of what
the person is working on really means little to me as I don't have the
big picture. To me deadlines and schedules are more important. It's
just some tasks take less than one month, some take more and some people
are working on multiple tasks within a sprint month. Well I still think
that estimated delivery dates would be nice, and a way to see if the
date is slipping, are important I am not sure if this is necessary since
the way the sprint process is managed. The suggestions I have seen so
far seem like common sense to me. Add some tags to Qaiku and maybe the
search links in the notes for each task. A way to be able to see if one
task is waiting on another. If anything I was looking for a way to look
at the sprint wiki and determine when something may happen, and it turns
out its not exactly that simple. I do not think that task owners
whether paid or not need to report daily, but perhaps a couple sentence
blurb once per week in Qaiku may be useful whether there is progress or not.

Thanks to everyone for all the useful comments.

Matt Lewis

On 11/06/2009 10:13 AM, Randall Arnold wrote:
>>
>> ext Valerio Valerio wrote:
>>
>>> I trust people, as long they report back in the end of the month is
>>> enough for me, besides that I can found any of the task owners in IRC
>>> and ask about the tasks. We really want more than that ? Would people
>>> care about other kind of reports ? Don't think so.
>>>
>> Considering that most of these contributors are getting paid for doing
>> their work yes, we want to know as much as possible as long as they
>> don't end up investing more time reporting than working. :) A couple of
>> lines a day is not too much to ask when you're getting paid nâ‚¬ the hour.
>> It really makes the difference between knowing that someone is working
>> that day on maemo.org or doing something else, specially if the person
>> is not regularly active in other channels.
>>
>> About 100% volunteers sure enough, that's a different question and it's
>> totally fine not to demand the same frequency and level of reporting.
>>
>> --
>> Quim Gil
>> open source advocate
>> Maemo Devices @ Nokia
>>
>>
> I have to agree, and in fact I am paying the price currently for lack of reporting in my current employment. My boss will work on things and not tell me, leading me to start working on the same items, wasting time. Even worse, that same scenario plays out across the entire organzation, to where I can safely say that 50% of anyone's time is utterly wasted.
>
> Let's try to avoid that.
>
> But to Valerio's point, reporting CAN consume an unreasonable amount of a person's time IF it isn't automated as much as reasonable possible, or requires too many hoops.
>
> To that extent, I think the suggestions so far are reasonable. It would be great if more automation could be implemented, but in some cases it's sheer human judgment (like in my current task) so in the end we depend on people taking a brief moment to update things. Ultimately it serves everyone, even the reporter, because you can save time downstream by not having to answer so many questions. ; )
>
> Randy
>

andrew at bleb

Nov 6, 2009, 9:33 AM

Post #17 of 19 (867 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

Matthew wrote:
>
> I did not realize the tasks were supposed to be
> completed by the end of each month.Â Which is why I was looking for
> status updates.

The thing which makes this work is having well-defined tasks, completable in <4 weeks with a pre-defined, specified, criteria for recoginising when a task is complete.

If a task is vague, or it's subjective when it's copmplete; the process does not work.

I have an advantage in this discussion as we have the same debates at work about 2 months ahead of them cropping up here ;-)

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew [at] blebÂ |Â http://www.bleb.org/
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dneary at maemo

Nov 6, 2009, 9:46 AM

Post #18 of 19 (866 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

Hi,

Qole wrote:
> At the very least, could the qaiku #maemork comments always have the
> task ID? I think non-task "business as usual" (BAU) shouldn't be tagged
> #maemork. Perhaps a separate channel for task related and non-task
> related comments?

I disagree with that in fact - I definitely do think there's a possible
perception that no reporting = no work.

And honestly, I don't think that the volume of comments in the channel
is such that it merits a separate channel.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

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jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Nov 6, 2009, 11:53 AM

Post #19 of 19 (861 views)
Permalink

Re: Sprint Task Status Update SSO [In reply to]

On Nov 6, 2009, at 16:31, penguinbait wrote:

> I have to somewhat agree with Andrew Flegg, as I did not intend to
> make more work for anyone. And these adults with jobs don't need to
> tell me every task they are doing. This all stemmed from MY
> confusion over the sprint process.

The process has evolved somewhat organically in an ad-hoc fashion - no
surprise that any new council member might be confused.

> I did not realize the tasks were supposed to be completed by the end
> of each month. Which is why I was looking for status updates.
> However without a detailed project plan, updates of what the person
> is working on really means little to me as I don't have the big
> picture. To me deadlines and schedules are more important.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

> It's just some tasks take less than one month, some take more and
> some people are working on multiple tasks within a sprint month.
> Well I still think that estimated delivery dates would be nice, and
> a way to see if the date is slipping, are important I am not sure if
> this is necessary since the way the sprint process is managed.

There is also a 'backlog' that old tasks get put onto, so the whole
sprint system sort of boils down to a set of prioritized tasks with an
implicit due date. Some tasks have to be done on time: MUSTs, some
SHOULD be done on time, but can be carried over, some COULD be done on
time or not, no big deal. Those three capitalized words are the
prioritization of the tasks, its called the MoSCoW system.

> The suggestions I have seen so far seem like common sense to me.
> Add some tags to Qaiku and maybe the search links in the notes for
> each task. A way to be able to see if one task is waiting on
> another. If anything I was looking for a way to look at the sprint
> wiki and determine when something may happen, and it turns out its
> not exactly that simple.

Yeah, unfortunately its 'predictive' power is limited.

> I do not think that task owners whether paid or not need to report
> daily, but perhaps a couple sentence blurb once per week in Qaiku
> may be useful whether there is progress or not.

I try and report in everyday.

Jeremiah

>
> Thanks to everyone for all the useful comments.
>
> Matt Lewis
>
>
>
> On 11/06/2009 10:13 AM, Randall Arnold wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ext Valerio Valerio wrote:
>>>
>>>> I trust people, as long they report back in the end of the month is
>>>> enough for me, besides that I can found any of the task owners in
>>>> IRC
>>>> and ask about the tasks. We really want more than that ? Would
>>>> people
>>>> care about other kind of reports ? Don't think so.
>>>>
>>> Considering that most of these contributors are getting paid for
>>> doing
>>> their work yes, we want to know as much as possible as long as they
>>> don't end up investing more time reporting than working. :) A
>>> couple of
>>> lines a day is not too much to ask when you're getting paid n€ the
>>> hour.
>>> It really makes the difference between knowing that someone is
>>> working
>>> that day on maemo.org or doing something else, specially if the
>>> person
>>> is not regularly active in other channels.
>>>
>>> About 100% volunteers sure enough, that's a different question and
>>> it's
>>> totally fine not to demand the same frequency and level of
>>> reporting.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Quim Gil
>>> open source advocate
>>> Maemo Devices @ Nokia
>>>
>>>
>> I have to agree, and in fact I am paying the price currently for
>> lack of reporting in my current employment. My boss will work on
>> things and not tell me, leading me to start working on the same
>> items, wasting time. Even worse, that same scenario plays out
>> across the entire organzation, to where I can safely say that 50%
>> of anyone's time is utterly wasted.
>>
>> Let's try to avoid that.
>>
>> But to Valerio's point, reporting CAN consume an unreasonable
>> amount of a person's time IF it isn't automated as much as
>> reasonable possible, or requires too many hoops.
>>
>> To that extent, I think the suggestions so far are reasonable. It
>> would be great if more automation could be implemented, but in some
>> cases it's sheer human judgment (like in my current task) so in the
>> end we depend on people taking a brief moment to update things.
>> Ultimately it serves everyone, even the reporter, because you can
>> save time downstream by not having to answer so many questions. ; )
>>
>> Randy
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community [at] maemo
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

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