Mailing List Archive: Maemo: Community

Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms

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dneary at maemo

Jul 31, 2009, 7:29 AM

Post #1 of 17 (868 views)
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Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms

Hi all,

I'd like to see us get the ball rolling on the next council elections
early next week, and open the call for candidates soon. We're running
quite close to the wire for the summit getting the election done, and
giving the council a chance to meet virtually before then.

I would also like to propose that we concurrently run a referendum (yes,
another one) on lengthening the council's term to one year.

From a purely practical point of view, it's a pain in the bum running
these elections so often, it eats a bunch of time that could be spent
doing other stuff. So it's almost entirely selfish of me.

Not completely, though. It seems to me that the 4 months between an
election and the start of the next election process isn't enough time
for the council to get any traction on anything big. There has been
continuity between the 2 councils we've had so far, which helps, but I
think a term of 1 year would better suit the cadence of the community &
allow the council to work better with Nokia, rather than changing heads
every 6 months.

If the council agrees, I'd like to see us run this referendum
concurrently, and thus it would apply to the council elected in March
2010 (since it seems really weird for me to have it apply to people who
only signed up for 6 months in September).

I'm interested in feedback on this, of course. Anyone want to comment on
whether it's a good or bad idea?

Thanks,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary [at] maemo
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a.grandi at gmail

Jul 31, 2009, 7:47 AM

Post #2 of 17 (837 views)
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Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

Hi,

2009/7/31 Dave Neary <dneary [at] maemo>:
> I would also like to propose that we concurrently run a referendum (yes,
> another one) on lengthening the council's term to one year.

I agree with your proposal. Infact there is just little time between
the moment a council member start to understand how the whole thing
works and the moment he need to leave.

Personally I don't know if I'll propose my candidature again... not
because I wasn't elected when I proposed it, but just because I'm
really enjoying working in Python Maemo team and I would prefear to
spend my free time contributing with pieces of code more than managing
organizative and bourocratic stuff.

You guys are really doing a good job and I'm happy with this council,
so for me is an OK, continue until you want :)

p.s: (just a "crazy" idea) what would you think about reserving a spot
in Maemo Council for women? Yes, I know that womens in this kind of
stuff are rare just like non-corrupted politicians (well... at least
here in Italy, don't want to offend any other nation :) ) but the ones
who work in IT are very valid and skilled, so why don't we try to
promote them and involve more in the Maemo community?

--
Andrea Grandi
email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com
website: http://www.andreagrandi.it
PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc
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jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Jul 31, 2009, 9:02 AM

Post #3 of 17 (838 views)
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Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Andrea Grandi wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 2009/7/31 Dave Neary <dneary [at] maemo>:
>> I would also like to propose that we concurrently run a referendum
>> (yes,
>> another one) on lengthening the council's term to one year.
>
> I agree with your proposal. Infact there is just little time between
> the moment a council member start to understand how the whole thing
> works and the moment he need to leave.

I agree, it should be a year long position.
>
> p.s: (just a "crazy" idea) what would you think about reserving a spot
> in Maemo Council for women? Yes, I know that womens in this kind of
> stuff are rare just like non-corrupted politicians (well... at least
> here in Italy, don't want to offend any other nation :) ) but the ones
> who work in IT are very valid and skilled, so why don't we try to
> promote them and involve more in the Maemo community?

I love this idea - though I am skeptical that reserving a position on
the council for a woman is the right way to go about getting more wome
to participate.

Jeremiah
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andrew at bleb

Jul 31, 2009, 9:17 AM

Post #4 of 17 (837 views)
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Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 15:29, Dave Neary<dneary [at] maemo> wrote:
>
> I'd like to see us get the ball rolling on the next council elections
> early next week, and open the call for candidates soon. We're running
> quite close to the wire for the summit getting the election done, and
> giving the council a chance to meet virtually before then.

Agreed. In particular, we'll need you/Henri/Niels to look at the
account/karma situation for non-existing maemo.org accounts at
talk.maemo.org which _would_ meet the karma requirements if they had
accounts.

> I would also like to propose that we concurrently run a referendum (yes,
> another one) on lengthening the council's term to one year.

I see the council as primarily a reactive role (shepherding some of
the key events like the summit, GSoc etc.); and so I'm interested to
hear from people who think that there are things the council should be
doing which we haven't been (either because they're too big for our
scope or whatever).

> If the council agrees, I'd like to see us run this referendum
> concurrently, and thus it would apply to the council elected in March
> 2010 (since it seems really weird for me to have it apply to people who
> only signed up for 6 months in September).

Personally, it's not something I'd support. However, I'm happy to open
it up to a referendum if there's a support for both sides (or even
overwhelming support in favour of the idea).

In particular, how would Simon & Eduardo - both people who didn't
stand again - feel about tying themselves in for a *year*?

Cheers,

Andrew

--
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Maemo Community Council chair
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tim at samoff

Jul 31, 2009, 9:23 AM

Post #5 of 17 (840 views)
Permalink

Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

Hi,

> I see the council as primarily a reactive role (shepherding some of
> the key events like the summit, GSoc etc.); and so I'm interested to
> hear from people who think that there are things the council should be
> doing which we haven't been (either because they're too big for our
> scope or whatever).

Unfortunately, every time we ask, no one has any ideas. We've tried so
many times... :(

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 15:29, Dave Neary<dneary [at] maemo> wrote:
>> I'd like to see us get the ball rolling on the next council elections
>> early next week, and open the call for candidates soon. We're running
>> quite close to the wire for the summit getting the election done, and
>> giving the council a chance to meet virtually before then.
>
> Agreed. In particular, we'll need you/Henri/Niels to look at the
> account/karma situation for non-existing maemo.org accounts at
> talk.maemo.org which _would_ meet the karma requirements if they had
> accounts.
>
>> I would also like to propose that we concurrently run a referendum (yes,
>> another one) on lengthening the council's term to one year.
>
> I see the council as primarily a reactive role (shepherding some of
> the key events like the summit, GSoc etc.); and so I'm interested to
> hear from people who think that there are things the council should be
> doing which we haven't been (either because they're too big for our
> scope or whatever).
>
>> If the council agrees, I'd like to see us run this referendum
>> concurrently, and thus it would apply to the council elected in March
>> 2010 (since it seems really weird for me to have it apply to people who
>> only signed up for 6 months in September).
>
> Personally, it's not something I'd support. However, I'm happy to open
> it up to a referendum if there's a support for both sides (or even
> overwhelming support in favour of the idea).
>
> In particular, how would Simon& Eduardo - both people who didn't
> stand again - feel about tying themselves in for a *year*?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>

--
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S.G.Pickering at bath

Jul 31, 2009, 9:53 AM

Post #6 of 17 (837 views)
Permalink

RE: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

> On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Andrea Grandi wrote:
> > p.s: (just a "crazy" idea) what would you think about reserving a spot
> > in Maemo Council for women? Yes, I know that womens in this kind of
> > stuff are rare just like non-corrupted politicians (well... at least
> > here in Italy, don't want to offend any other nation :) ) but the ones
> > who work in IT are very valid and skilled, so why don't we try to
> > promote them and involve more in the Maemo community?
>
> I love this idea - though I am skeptical that reserving a
> position on the council for a woman is the right way to go
> about getting more wome to participate.

Hmm, I don't think we should enforce positive discrimination. I think we
should certainly promote and encourage women to stand for the council, no
argument there, but reserving a place is not right IMO. As ever, the place
should be given to the best candidates, no matter who they are.

Cheers,

Simon

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jamie at linuxuk

Jul 31, 2009, 9:55 AM

Post #7 of 17 (837 views)
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Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

On 31 Jul 2009, at 17:53, Simon Pickering wrote:
> Hmm, I don't think we should enforce positive discrimination. I
> think we
> should certainly promote and encourage women to stand for the
> council, no
> argument there, but reserving a place is not right IMO. As ever, the
> place
> should be given to the best candidates, no matter who they are.

Definitely agree. Promotion for women is great but places should be on
merit and merit alone.

> Simon

Regards,
Jamie.
--
http://www.linuxuk.org

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S.G.Pickering at bath

Jul 31, 2009, 10:04 AM

Post #8 of 17 (841 views)
Permalink

RE: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

> > I would also like to propose that we concurrently run a referendum
> > (yes, another one) on lengthening the council's term to one year.
>
> I see the council as primarily a reactive role (shepherding
> some of the key events like the summit, GSoc etc.); and so
> I'm interested to hear from people who think that there are
> things the council should be doing which we haven't been
> (either because they're too big for our scope or whatever).
>
> > If the council agrees, I'd like to see us run this referendum
> > concurrently, and thus it would apply to the council elected in March
> > 2010 (since it seems really weird for me to have it apply to people
> > who only signed up for 6 months in September).
>
> Personally, it's not something I'd support. However, I'm
> happy to open it up to a referendum if there's a support for
> both sides (or even overwhelming support in favour of the idea).
>
> In particular, how would Simon & Eduardo - both people who
> didn't stand again - feel about tying themselves in for a *year*?

Although I've not got married and work is quieter so I will be looking at
standing again, I'm not sure I'd want to stand for a year - mainly because I
really can't see that far ahead (well I can't see 6 months ahead either, but
if I suddenly get very busy at least someone else will soon be able to be
elected in my place).

So, we should look at allowing people to stand down and have replacements
elected during the term (in general, not even just thinking about 1 year
terms). While we're at it we should probably also look at the ability to
have people removed from the council by council majority should the need
arise.

I wonder if we should establish some working groups to deal with certain
subjects (yeah bureaucracy I know!), because different people are interested
in different things, it might be a way of including more community members,
spreading the load and getting the people who are interested involved in the
right places. E.g. organising documentation improvement/corrections, summit
organisation, dealing with extras, etc., etc.

And on that note, yeah I probably would stand for a whole year, just as long
as I don't have to come to (m)any IRC meetings (can I nominate a gopher? ;)
:D

Cheers,

Simon

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S.G.Pickering at bath

Jul 31, 2009, 10:19 AM

Post #9 of 17 (845 views)
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RE: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

> Although I've not got married and work is quieter so I will

Interesting typo there, should read "just got married and work is quieter"

Don't tell!

Simon

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dneary at free

Jul 31, 2009, 1:39 PM

Post #10 of 17 (837 views)
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Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

Hi,
----- Mail Original -----
Agreed. In particular, we'll need you/Henri/Niels to look at the
account/karma situation for non-existing maemo.org accounts at
talk.maemo.org which _would_ meet the karma requirements if they had
accounts.

I have no way of calculating that, and I doubt that Henri does either. I am sure there are a small number of people with maemo.org accounts under different email addresses that would reach karma limits if they consolidated, but don't right now - we might be able to figure that out. But people who don't haev maemo.org accounts at all is a toughie.

Cheers,
Dave.
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dneary at free

Jul 31, 2009, 1:43 PM

Post #11 of 17 (836 views)
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Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

Hi,

Simon Pickering said:
> > On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Andrea Grandi wrote:
> > > p.s: (just a "crazy" idea) what would you think about reserving a spot
> > > in Maemo Council for women? Yes, I know that womens in this kind of
> > > stuff are rare just like non-corrupted politicians (well... at least
> > > here in Italy, don't want to offend any other nation :) ) but the ones
> > > who work in IT are very valid and skilled, so why don't we try to
> > > promote them and involve more in the Maemo community?
> >
> > I love this idea - though I am skeptical that reserving a
> > position on the council for a woman is the right way to go
> > about getting more wome to participate.
>
> Hmm, I don't think we should enforce positive discrimination. I think we
> should certainly promote and encourage women to stand for the council, no
> argument there, but reserving a place is not right IMO. As ever, the place
> should be given to the best candidates, no matter who they are.

I recommend everyone to go look at Kirilly (sp?) Robert's OSCON keynote on blip.tv. What I took away from her talk was not that women want special treatment, they simply don't want *special* treatment. Lower the tone of discussion, take some of that aggression you typically find in online interactions out of play, make your project a nicer place, and more women (and, in general, other people who are intimidated by passive aggressiveness) will come to your project.

Cheers,
Dave.
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rabelg5 at gmail

Jul 31, 2009, 5:30 PM

Post #12 of 17 (833 views)
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Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Andrea Grandi<a.grandi [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> p.s: (just a "crazy" idea) what would you think about reserving a spot
> in Maemo Council for women? Yes, I know that womens in this kind of
> stuff are rare just like non-corrupted politicians (well... at least
> here in Italy, don't want to offend any other nation :) ) but the ones
> who work in IT are very valid and skilled, so why don't we try to
> promote them and involve more in the Maemo community?
>

Whether it's for good or bad reasons, discrimination is discrimination.
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andrew at bleb

Aug 1, 2009, 7:58 AM

Post #13 of 17 (821 views)
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Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 21:39, <dneary [at] free> wrote:
>
>> Agreed. In particular, we'll need you/Henri/Niels to look at the
>> account/karma situation for non-existing maemo.org accounts at
>> talk.maemo.org which _would_ meet the karma requirements if they had
>> accounts.
>
> I have no way of calculating that, and I doubt that Henri does either.

Well, the problem needs solving even if it requires the coordination
of more people. Is it possible to have a (semi-private) page which
lists all the talk.maemo.org and internettablettalk.com addresses
under registered accounts?

If so, it's pretty trivial to run over
http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=$I where $I is not in the set of
accounts already bound and identify anyone where:

* join_date.before(2009-06-xx)
* sqrt(posts) + 8*sqrt(thanks) >= 10

Then, say 3 weeks before the election, we mass communicate (either
email, or tmo private message or some kind of alert in the forum
system) to those individuals telling them that they are elligible to
vote but need to ensure they have a maemo.org account which is linked
to their tmo profile. This communication would include a link to a
step-by-step guide.

One week before the election concludes, the same process identifies
any people who still haven't done so, and they get another
communication.

The only problem then is ensuring that when the age of a maemo.org
account is determined the tmo profile is looked at to see if it's
greater. This then limits the burden on
you/Niels/Henri/whomever-else-has-access-to-the-account-db to:

* Providing a list of tmo accounts which *are* registered in the db.
* Finding a way of setting an account's create date to that of their tmo
profile if it pre-dates the maemo.org account creation.

Anyone else, including myself, can do the rest.

Cheers,

Andrew

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Maemo Community Council chair
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andrew at bleb

Aug 1, 2009, 8:05 AM

Post #14 of 17 (820 views)
Permalink

Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 15:29, Dave Neary<dneary [at] maemo> wrote:
>
> I would also like to propose that we concurrently run a referendum (yes,
> another one) on lengthening the council's term to one year.
>
> From a purely practical point of view, it's a pain in the bum running
> these elections so often, it eats a bunch of time that could be spent
> doing other stuff. So it's almost entirely selfish of me.

Apart from the question about what it is you, and others advocating
the lengthening, think hasn't been able to have traction on; I'm also
interested in what it is about running the elections which is so time
consuming for you and how it can be streamlined.

Things like announcements can fall under the jurisdiction of the
current council chair, but I doubt that's the most time consuming
thing you've been doing.

> Not completely, though. It seems to me that the 4 months between an
> election and the start of the next election process

Except the majority of the elected council can be working for 6 months
of that (I'll keep the objections somewhere else though, and wanted to
concentrate on identifying the problems in the election processes).

Cheers,

Andrew

--
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Maemo Community Council chair
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dneary at maemo

Aug 3, 2009, 2:31 AM

Post #15 of 17 (818 views)
Permalink

Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

Hi,

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> Well, the problem needs solving even if it requires the coordination
> of more people. Is it possible to have a (semi-private) page which
> lists all the talk.maemo.org and internettablettalk.com addresses
> under registered accounts?

So here's the suggestion I made to you in a separate mail, repeated on
the m-c list.

We should notify everyone on tmo now that an election is coming up in
September, and tell them that they need to create a maemo account before
August 15th to be able to vote (as a special condition/privilege for
this election).

Then when it comes time to send out ballots, we will send ballots to
everyone whose karma is over 10 and their accounts were created before
June 15th.

If their karma is over 10, but the account was created before August
15th, we'll look through them case by case, and send a ballot to
everyone who got their karma from tmo (although why we'd special-case
them I don't know).

My suggestion for the future is to notify tmo 3 months before the
election that the next election is coming up, and that they should
create a maemo.org account to be able to vote.

Let's avoid complicated technical work-arounds if we can. And let's
remember that 8 months ago we had a referendum, and 6 months ago we had
an election, when we again talked about election eligibility and tmo. At
some stage, you just have to let people know what the rules are, and let
them decide for themselves whether they would like to vote in the
election or not.

> If so, it's pretty trivial to run over
> http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=$I where $I is not in the set of
> accounts already bound and identify anyone where:

we have different definitions of trivial. "where $I is not in the set of
accounts already bound"? How do you calculate that?

Cheers,
Dave.

--
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Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

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dneary at maemo

Aug 3, 2009, 2:39 AM

Post #16 of 17 (816 views)
Permalink

Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

Hi,

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 15:29, Dave Neary<dneary [at] maemo> wrote:
>> I would also like to propose that we concurrently run a referendum (yes,
>> another one) on lengthening the council's term to one year.
>>
>> From a purely practical point of view, it's a pain in the bum running
>> these elections so often, it eats a bunch of time that could be spent
>> doing other stuff. So it's almost entirely selfish of me.
>
> Apart from the question about what it is you, and others advocating
> the lengthening, think hasn't been able to have traction on; I'm also
> interested in what it is about running the elections which is so time
> consuming for you and how it can be streamlined.

I think I was clear that this is mostly a selfish decision. Running an
election typically takes some of my time (overall, I'd guess about 3
days now, longer previously because of complications and software
modifications/installation and shell script hacking) to generate &
publish & announce lists of eligible candidates, announce elections,
generate lists of eligible voters & poulate the database with tokens,
send out emails, send out reminders about the election 2 or 3 times,
reply at length to the tmo threads criticising the exclusion of tmo from
the Maemo community, and generate and publish the election results.

The work in making the elections preferential last time was a biggish
job, but quite enjoyable actually.

To put it another way, running an election takes effort from me, from
Henri, from the council, and maybe that effort could be better spent,
instead of having it come up every 6 months?

Also, Andi80 said it best - new council members (unlike yourself) come
in, start getting an idea for what they want the council to be about &
how to make headway, and then there's an election. I'd like being a
member of the council to be less about elections & introspective stuff
and more about outward-facing stuff, helping attach the big issues that
people have, and enabling the community to be more action-based than
talk-based.

> Things like announcements can fall under the jurisdiction of the
> current council chair, but I doubt that's the most time consuming
> thing you've been doing.

Things like announcements are time consuming. And if I can take some
weight off the un-paid council so that they can take care of the
important stuff, I'm happy to do it.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
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Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

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andrew at bleb

Aug 3, 2009, 5:55 AM

Post #17 of 17 (816 views)
Permalink

Re: Getting the ball rolling for council elections, and proposal to lengthen terms [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:31, Dave Neary<dneary [at] maemo> wrote:
>
>> If so, it's pretty trivial to run over
>> http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=$I where $I is not in the set of
>> accounts already bound and identify anyone where:
>
> we have different definitions of trivial. "where $I is not in the set of
> accounts already bound"? How do you calculate that?

For the sake of argument, let's assume the maemo.org account database
looks like:

+----+------------+------------------------------+
| id | username | tmo_profile |
+----+------------+------------------------------+
| 1 | jaffa | http://..../member.php?u=75 |
| 2 | bobsmith | |
+----+------------+------------------------------+

I'm assuming it's not impossible for anyone with access to the
maemo.org account database to do:

SELECT DISTINCT tmo_profile FROM accounts

That then gives a set of associated profile IDs of just (75). So,
iterate from 1 to 20000, skipping 75.

Cheers,

Andrew

--
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