Mailing List Archive: Maemo: Community

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

david at dgreaves

Apr 21, 2009, 2:06 PM

Post #1 of 12 (887 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system

Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> Hello!
>
> There is a an interesting Summer of Code project that Nokia and Maemo
> might want to watch and monitor its development.
> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/user/pkern/wb_python
>
> This projects aims to build a more efficient automated build system
> for debian's infrastructure. Maybe there are ideas and code to take
> and use on maemo.org.

:D

Try this:
http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/

Have a look here if you like:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build

Someone else has been looking at it too:
https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=Maemo%3A4.1

David

--
"Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once..."
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Apr 22, 2009, 3:02 AM

Post #2 of 12 (852 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

On Apr 21, 2009, at 23:06, David Greaves wrote:

> Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>> Hello!
>>
>> There is a an interesting Summer of Code project that Nokia and Maemo
>> might want to watch and monitor its development.
>> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/user/pkern/wb_python
>>
>> This projects aims to build a more efficient automated build system
>> for debian's infrastructure. Maybe there are ideas and code to take
>> and use on maemo.org.
>
> :D
>
> Try this:
> http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/

I have looked at this previously and think it is a great idea. I am
not convinced that I want my software sitting around on Novell's
servers though. I think they are a little confused about free software.
>
> Have a look here if you like:
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build

Ditto.
>
> Someone else has been looking at it too:
> https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=Maemo%3A4.1

Ditto, plus this page asks me for a login. FAIL.

I think the Debian SoC project might provide a more modern, and
hopefully robust, build system implemented in a language that Maemo
uses (python) that can be moved to a local server as opposed to queued
in Novell's build system. It is the entire chain of automated tools
that is so complex and hard to manage - having an easier system would
be a huge win for the community even if it is behind the scenes.

Jeremiah
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

dneary at maemo

Apr 22, 2009, 3:11 AM

Post #3 of 12 (856 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

Hi,

Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 23:06, David Greaves wrote:
>> Try this:
>> http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/
>
> I have looked at this previously and think it is a great idea. I am
> not convinced that I want my software sitting around on Novell's
> servers though. I think they are a little confused about free software.

If your software is free software, what does it matter where it's sitting?

> I think the Debian SoC project might provide a more modern, and
> hopefully robust, build system implemented in a language that Maemo
> uses (python) that can be moved to a local server as opposed to queued
> in Novell's build system. It is the entire chain of automated tools
> that is so complex and hard to manage - having an easier system would
> be a huge win for the community even if it is behind the scenes.

I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. It looks like NIH to me.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary [at] maemo
Jabber: bolsh [at] jabber

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

rabelg5 at gmail

Apr 22, 2009, 3:12 AM

Post #4 of 12 (852 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

On Apr 22, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Jeremiah Foster wrote:

> I think the Debian SoC project might provide a more modern, and
> hopefully robust, build system implemented in a language that Maemo
> uses (python) that can be moved to a local server as opposed to queued
> in Novell's build system. It is the entire chain of automated tools
> that is so complex and hard to manage - having an easier system would
> be a huge win for the community even if it is behind the scenes.

You're free to run your own local install of OBS.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council member

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

david at dgreaves

Apr 22, 2009, 3:47 AM

Post #5 of 12 (857 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 23:06, David Greaves wrote:
>> Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>>> This projects aims to build a more efficient automated build system
>>> for debian's infrastructure. Maybe there are ideas and code to take
>>> and use on maemo.org.
>> :D
>>
>> Try this:
>> http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/
>
> I have looked at this previously and think it is a great idea. I am
> not convinced that I want my software sitting around on Novell's
> servers though. I think they are a little confused about free software.

3 points:
* OBS is completely GPL
* so... a setup of obs.maemo.org is encouraged (I intend to setup a local OBS here)
* Suse/Novell are providing a very valuable and free service to the OSS
community. There is zero tie-in just a 165 strong server farm.

Novell's "confusion" is important but, IMHO, not relevant here.

>> Someone else has been looking at it too:
>> https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=Maemo%3A4.1
>
> Ditto, plus this page asks me for a login. FAIL.

I didn't realise the page needed a login; but really... "FAIL". Maybe you could
look a _little_ deeper.

The OBS guys are aware that their ties to Suse/Novell make it sound like a
builder for a single distro. However it isn't.

It builds for:
* Debian
* openSUSE
* SLES
* Fedora
* RHEL
* CentOS
* Mandriva
* Ubuntu
and now:
* Mer
and lots more...

on
* armv5el
* i586
* ia64
* ppc
* ppc64
* x86_64

and it builds *all* the packages (as in the entire distro) for the offical SUSE
repos.

OBS is more a VM/chroot manger that runs each distro's own packaging and build
software. It supports Xen/KVM/Qemu/chroot.

So for Debian it does an apt-get build-essential, pulls all the build-depends
and then runs dpkg-buildpkg. Similarly for other distros.

Oh, it also provides a working local buildservice that doesn't need scratchbox
hacks.

> I think the Debian SoC project might provide a more modern, and
> hopefully robust, build system implemented in a language that Maemo
> uses (python)
Mmm "decision by language".

> that can be moved to a local server as opposed to queued
> in Novell's build system.
As can OBS.

> It is the entire chain of automated tools
> that is so complex and hard to manage - having an easier system would
> be a huge win for the community even if it is behind the scenes.
Agree. Would you agree that it's good to find a mature solution with a solid and
funded team behind it then?

As I said, Suse eat their own dogfood - OBS is used to build the released SUSE
distros.

IMNSHO the SoC project is vapourware and/or a NIH toy by comparison :)

I admit I am biased - I thought Mer needed something to use as a builder and
when I found OBS met our needs I began using it. Mer 0.13 will hopefully come
from OBS and I'm now running Qt4.5 from OBS on Mer on my N800.

David

--
"Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once..."
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Apr 23, 2009, 10:21 AM

Post #6 of 12 (846 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

On Apr 22, 2009, at 12:11, Dave Neary wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>> On Apr 21, 2009, at 23:06, David Greaves wrote:
>>> Try this:
>>> http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/
>>
>> I have looked at this previously and think it is a great idea. I am
>> not convinced that I want my software sitting around on Novell's
>> servers though. I think they are a little confused about free
>> software.
>
> If your software is free software, what does it matter where it's
> sitting?

It matters a lot. What happens when the server dies for example? Plus,
that obviates the need for a build server, you can just push to github.

>
>> I think the Debian SoC project might provide a more modern, and
>> hopefully robust, build system implemented in a language that Maemo
>> uses (python) that can be moved to a local server as opposed to
>> queued
>> in Novell's build system. It is the entire chain of automated tools
>> that is so complex and hard to manage - having an easier system would
>> be a huge win for the community even if it is behind the scenes.
>
> I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. It looks like NIH to me.

Oh. I thought if it was built by debian it would be close enough to
Invented Here.

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Apr 23, 2009, 10:32 AM

Post #7 of 12 (851 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

On Apr 22, 2009, at 12:47, David Greaves wrote:
> Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>> On Apr 21, 2009, at 23:06, David Greaves wrote:
>>> Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>>>> This projects aims to build a more efficient automated build system
>>>> for debian's infrastructure. Maybe there are ideas and code to take
>>>> and use on maemo.org.
>>> :D
>>>
>>> Try this:
>>> http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/
>>
>> I have looked at this previously and think it is a great idea. I am
>> not convinced that I want my software sitting around on Novell's
>> servers though. I think they are a little confused about free
>> software.
>
> 3 points:
> * OBS is completely GPL
> * so... a setup of obs.maemo.org is encouraged (I intend to setup a
> local OBS here)
> * Suse/Novell are providing a very valuable and free service to the
> OSS
> community. There is zero tie-in just a 165 strong server farm.
>
> Novell's "confusion" is important but, IMHO, not relevant here.

Fair enough. I agree that obs.maemo.org is a very good thing, I hope
we can do that.
>
>>> Someone else has been looking at it too:
>>> https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=Maemo%3A4.1
>>
>> Ditto, plus this page asks me for a login. FAIL.
>
> I didn't realise the page needed a login; but really... "FAIL".
> Maybe you could
> look a _little_ deeper.

Putting stuff behind a login is not very "free." So yes FAIL, though
not EPIC FAIL.
>
> The OBS guys are aware that their ties to Suse/Novell make it sound
> like a
> builder for a single distro. However it isn't.
>
> It builds for:
> * Debian
> * openSUSE
> * SLES
> * Fedora
> * RHEL
> * CentOS
> * Mandriva
> * Ubuntu
> and now:
> * Mer
> and lots more...
>
> on
> * armv5el
> * i586
> * ia64
> * ppc
> * ppc64
> * x86_64
>
> and it builds *all* the packages (as in the entire distro) for the
> offical SUSE
> repos.
>
> OBS is more a VM/chroot manger that runs each distro's own packaging
> and build
> software. It supports Xen/KVM/Qemu/chroot.
>
> So for Debian it does an apt-get build-essential, pulls all the
> build-depends
> and then runs dpkg-buildpkg. Similarly for other distros.
>
> Oh, it also provides a working local buildservice that doesn't need
> scratchbox
> hacks.
>
>> I think the Debian SoC project might provide a more modern, and
>> hopefully robust, build system implemented in a language that Maemo
>> uses (python)
> Mmm "decision by language".

I think that was decided long ago. :P In any case, python is not the
language I would have chosen and unfortunately decision based on
language is perhaps the most common way to decide what to use in the
community anyway. Otherwise we would all be using lisp.
>
>> that can be moved to a local server as opposed to queued
>> in Novell's build system.
> As can OBS.

That rocks.

>> It is the entire chain of automated tools
>> that is so complex and hard to manage - having an easier system would
>> be a huge win for the community even if it is behind the scenes.
> Agree. Would you agree that it's good to find a mature solution with
> a solid and
> funded team behind it then?
>
> As I said, Suse eat their own dogfood - OBS is used to build the
> released SUSE
> distros.
>
> IMNSHO the SoC project is vapourware and/or a NIH toy by comparison :)

No prejudice there. :) And Luk Claes, the mentor of the SoC project,
knows his stuff, so be prepared to be blown away.

> I admit I am biased - I thought Mer needed something to use as a
> builder and
> when I found OBS met our needs I began using it. Mer 0.13 will
> hopefully come
> from OBS and I'm now running Qt4.5 from OBS on Mer on my N800.

This points to a good data point for the OBS. Plus the more hackers
work on it the better it gets. It's GPL, and relocatable. I agree that
maemo should take a serious look at implementing it. Hmmm, I suppose
that might even be my job? Should I put that on the sprint page? What
do people think?

(I would like to also evaluate the debian SoC project once its done to
see if that is worthwhile too.)

Jeremiah

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

david at dgreaves

Apr 23, 2009, 1:10 PM

Post #8 of 12 (847 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>> IMNSHO the SoC project is vapourware and/or a NIH toy by comparison :)
>
> No prejudice there. :) And Luk Claes, the mentor of the SoC project,
> knows his stuff, so be prepared to be blown away.

Yeah, that came across harsher than I meant - sorry.

<aside>
I would love for more opensource people to put a bit more effort into "us"
rather than "me" though. I'm sure he could produce something that would blow me
away - but I'd far rather see someone contribute to a team effort.
And I know how much easier it is to design and implement a green-field solution.
</aside>

>> I admit I am biased - I thought Mer needed something to use as a
>> builder and
>> when I found OBS met our needs I began using it. Mer 0.13 will
>> hopefully come
>> from OBS and I'm now running Qt4.5 from OBS on Mer on my N800.
>
> This points to a good data point for the OBS. Plus the more hackers
> work on it the better it gets. It's GPL, and relocatable. I agree that
> maemo should take a serious look at implementing it. Hmmm, I suppose
> that might even be my job? Should I put that on the sprint page? What
> do people think?

Good, glad you're encouraged :)

I was trying to put together a note to let you know the breadth of OBS and
encourage closer scrutiny as it seems like it may be a useful tool for us all;
however I'm not aware of all the maemo.org/Nokia rewquirements. Someone
(X-fade?) mentioned the need to keep certain parts of the builder 'closed' and
OBS may or may not meet that need.

I am hoping to get sponsorship to the Copenhagen meet where I'd like to present
and chair some discussion on OBS/scratchbox etc. Will you be there?

> (I would like to also evaluate the debian SoC project once its done to
> see if that is worthwhile too.)
Of course.

David

--
"Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once..."
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

jeremiah at jeremiahfoster

Apr 23, 2009, 2:10 PM

Post #9 of 12 (849 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

On Apr 23, 2009, at 22:10, David Greaves wrote:

> Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>>> IMNSHO the SoC project is vapourware and/or a NIH toy by
>>> comparison :)
>>
>> No prejudice there. :) And Luk Claes, the mentor of the SoC project,
>> knows his stuff, so be prepared to be blown away.
>
> Yeah, that came across harsher than I meant - sorry.
>
> <aside>
> I would love for more opensource people to put a bit more effort
> into "us"
> rather than "me" though. I'm sure he could produce something that
> would blow me
> away - but I'd far rather see someone contribute to a team effort.
> And I know how much easier it is to design and implement a green-
> field solution.
> </aside>

I agree - there is too much "me" and not enough "us".
>
>>> I admit I am biased - I thought Mer needed something to use as a
>>> builder and
>>> when I found OBS met our needs I began using it. Mer 0.13 will
>>> hopefully come
>>> from OBS and I'm now running Qt4.5 from OBS on Mer on my N800.
>>
>> This points to a good data point for the OBS. Plus the more hackers
>> work on it the better it gets. It's GPL, and relocatable. I agree
>> that
>> maemo should take a serious look at implementing it. Hmmm, I suppose
>> that might even be my job? Should I put that on the sprint page? What
>> do people think?
>
> Good, glad you're encouraged :)
>
> I was trying to put together a note to let you know the breadth of
> OBS and
> encourage closer scrutiny as it seems like it may be a useful tool
> for us all;
> however I'm not aware of all the maemo.org/Nokia rewquirements.
> Someone
> (X-fade?) mentioned the need to keep certain parts of the builder
> 'closed' and
> OBS may or may not meet that need.

Yes, that in fact may be a sticking point, and X-Fade is usually well
informed on these matters.
>
> I am hoping to get sponsorship to the Copenhagen meet where I'd like
> to present
> and chair some discussion on OBS/scratchbox etc. Will you be there?

I very much look forward to that! I will be there, I hope you can be
there too.

Jeremiah

_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

vern at riseup

Apr 23, 2009, 5:22 PM

Post #10 of 12 (848 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

Hi
>> No prejudice there. :) And Luk Claes, the mentor of the SoC project,
>> knows his stuff, so be prepared to be blown away.
>
> Yeah, that came across harsher than I meant - sorry.
>
> <aside>
> I would love for more opensource people to put a bit more effort into "us"
> rather than "me" though. I'm sure he could produce something that would blow me
> away - but I'd far rather see someone contribute to a team effort.
> And I know how much easier it is to design and implement a green-field solution.
> </aside>

From debian-dev:

* Debian Autobuilding Infrastructure Rewrite *
----------------------------------------------
Student: Philipp Kern, Mentor: Luk Claes

Rewrite the software that currently runs the Debian autobuilding
infrastructure in a way that makes it more maintainable and robust. It
will use Python as its programming language and PostgreSQL for the
database backend. By harmonizing buildds, many build failures can be
prevented and wasteful workload on buildd volunteers can be reduced.

As both the student and the mentor are Debian Developers it is IMO a
good probability that something nice will come from this.

Ian

--
http://ianlawrence.info
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

quim.gil at nokia

Apr 26, 2009, 10:18 PM

Post #11 of 12 (828 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

Hi,

ext Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> This points to a good data point for the OBS. Plus the more hackers
> work on it the better it gets. It's GPL, and relocatable. I agree that
> maemo should take a serious look at implementing it. Hmmm, I suppose
> that might even be my job? Should I put that on the sprint page? What
> do people think?

An online build system is a quite a big discussion topic that Maemo is
considering for the future. I already asked for OBS feedback months ago
and I met the core developers at FOSDEM. Such online build system
(Novell's or anything else) could be part of something bigger, not only
to be used by Maemo application developers.

I recommend you not to invest much time on this and rather go to more
immediate work on supporting those developers in the short term with
better documentation and direct help.

For instance, there are many apps in Fremantle extras-devel that do not
install, and we have no (common) idea of the quality of the packages in
that repository. One task could be to see what are the main issues and
common mistakes and start addressing them to ease the path for the new
developers that will be involved for the first time in Maemo development
and perhaps also Debian packaging.

That is the original and main mission of the maemo.org debmaster.

--
Quim Gil
open source advocate
Maemo Software @ Nokia
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

bartosh at gmail

Apr 26, 2009, 11:36 PM

Post #12 of 12 (824 views)
Permalink

Re: Maemo / Nokia might want to take advantage of debian's potential new build system [In reply to]

Hi,

2009/4/27 Quim Gil <quim.gil [at] nokia>:
> Hi,
>
> ext Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>> This points to a good data point for the OBS. Plus the more hackers
>> work on it the better it gets. It's GPL, and relocatable. I agree that
>> maemo should take a serious look at implementing it. Hmmm, I suppose
>> that might even be my job? Should I put that on the sprint page? What
>> do people think?
>
> An online build system is a quite a big discussion topic that Maemo is
> considering for the future. I already asked for OBS feedback months ago
> and I met the core developers at FOSDEM. Such online build system
> (Novell's or anything else) could be part of something bigger, not only
> to be used by Maemo application developers.
>
> I recommend you not to invest much time on this and rather go to more
> immediate work on supporting those developers in the short term with
> better documentation and direct help.
>
I agree with Quim.

> For instance, there are many apps in Fremantle extras-devel that do not
> install, and we have no (common) idea of the quality of the packages in
> that repository. One task could be to see what are the main issues and
> common mistakes and start addressing them to ease the path for the new
> developers that will be involved for the first time in Maemo development
> and perhaps also Debian packaging.
>

BTW, why we're looking at other solutions instead of continuing
development of our own?
Autobuilder is working for one year already without problems. Who
prevents us to develop Web UI for it or check for packages
installability or whatever community wants?

--
BR,
Ed
_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
maemo-community [at] maemo
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

Interested in having your list archived? Contact Gossamer Threads