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Lucene and Java 1.5

 

 

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kalle at snigel

May 27, 2006, 2:08 AM

Post #1 of 82 (5359 views)
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Lucene and Java 1.5

Will code with 1.5 syntax be committed?


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simon.willnauer at googlemail

May 27, 2006, 3:47 AM

Post #2 of 82 (5276 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

I guess the discussion about switching to 1.5 will startup right now
due to the 2.0 release of lucene.
But I have doubt about 1.5 code will be commited yet.

simon

On 5/27/06, karl wettin <kalle [at] snigel> wrote:
> Will code with 1.5 syntax be committed?
>
>
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>


--

----------------------------------------------
Simon Willnauer
Kolonnenstrasse 19
10829 Berlin
Germany

Fon: +49 30 97888951
Mobil: +49 1792200127
E-Mail: Simon.Willnauer [at] gmail


chuck at manawiz

May 27, 2006, 4:18 AM

Post #3 of 82 (5275 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

1.5 has been out for almost 2 years now and has substantial improvements
over 1.4.x, including generics for example. Isn't it time for Lucene to
adopt 1.5?

Chuck

Simon Willnauer wrote on 05/27/2006 12:47 AM:
> I guess the discussion about switching to 1.5 will startup right now
> due to the 2.0 release of lucene.
> But I have doubt about 1.5 code will be commited yet.
>
> simon
>
> On 5/27/06, karl wettin <kalle [at] snigel> wrote:
>> Will code with 1.5 syntax be committed?
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe [at] lucene
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>>
>>
>
>


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simon.willnauer at googlemail

May 27, 2006, 4:31 AM

Post #4 of 82 (5290 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

I fully agree with you. It is defiantly time to use all the new
features 1.5 provides.
It's quiet a funny coincidence that Karl started this discussion, I
would have done it instead.
I'm working on a contrib project under the Google SummerOfCode program.
The project is called GData Server which is supposed to be a server
side GData implementation.
(http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/index.html)
Google provides a open source client api which has been developed
using java 1.5.
I did start up the development 2 days ago and I like to use 1.5 for
the server side as well.
The GData Server implementation would become more consistent to the
provided client API and as it is a new project I would quiet make
sense to develop it based on Java 1.5.

Simon

On 5/27/06, Chuck Williams <chuck [at] manawiz> wrote:
> 1.5 has been out for almost 2 years now and has substantial improvements
> over 1.4.x, including generics for example. Isn't it time for Lucene to
> adopt 1.5?
>
> Chuck
>
> Simon Willnauer wrote on 05/27/2006 12:47 AM:
> > I guess the discussion about switching to 1.5 will startup right now
> > due to the 2.0 release of lucene.
> > But I have doubt about 1.5 code will be commited yet.
> >
> > simon
> >
> > On 5/27/06, karl wettin <kalle [at] snigel> wrote:
> >> Will code with 1.5 syntax be committed?
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe [at] lucene
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help [at] lucene
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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>


--

----------------------------------------------
Simon Willnauer
Kolonnenstrasse 19
10829 Berlin
Germany

Fon: +49 30 97888951
Mobil: +49 1792200127
E-Mail: Simon.Willnauer [at] gmail


lucenelist2005 at danielnaber

May 27, 2006, 6:45 AM

Post #5 of 82 (5288 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On Samstag 27 Mai 2006 13:18, Chuck Williams wrote:

> 1.5 has been out for almost 2 years now and has substantial improvements
> over 1.4.x, including generics for example.  Isn't it time for Lucene to
> adopt 1.5?

Java 1.5 has nice features, sure. But these features are mostly useful
during development, they are less usefull for existing and proven software
like Lucene. I think at least the core of Lucene should stay compatible
with 1.4 for some time. If someone wants to add 1.5-dependent modules to
the contrib area that would be okay for me though.

Regards
Daniel

--
http://www.danielnaber.de

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rengels at ix

May 27, 2006, 7:33 AM

Post #6 of 82 (5297 views)
Permalink
RE: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

Lucene running Java 1.5 seems almost 40% faster, and some of the Java 1.5
language features would improve the readability of the Lucene code.

I think it about time for such a "recognized" project to move forward. 1.6
is almost ready to be released...

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Naber [mailto:lucenelist2005 [at] danielnaber]
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 8:45 AM
To: java-dev [at] lucene
Subject: Re: Lucene and Java 1.5

On Samstag 27 Mai 2006 13:18, Chuck Williams wrote:

> 1.5 has been out for almost 2 years now and has substantial
> improvements over 1.4.x, including generics for example. áIsn't it
> time for Lucene to adopt 1.5?

Java 1.5 has nice features, sure. But these features are mostly useful
during development, they are less usefull for existing and proven software
like Lucene. I think at least the core of Lucene should stay compatible with
1.4 for some time. If someone wants to add 1.5-dependent modules to the
contrib area that would be okay for me though.

Regards
Daniel

--
http://www.danielnaber.de

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yseeley at gmail

May 27, 2006, 9:11 AM

Post #7 of 82 (5283 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On 5/27/06, Daniel Naber <lucenelist2005 [at] danielnaber> wrote:
> If someone wants to add 1.5-dependent modules to
> the contrib area that would be okay for me though.

+1

As far as Java1.4 or Java1.5 for Lucene core, I agree that it would
almost be nicer for developers than users. Maybe we should try and
get a feeling for how many people this might inconvenience...

So is there anyone that can run on Java1.4 but can't run on Java1.5?
I understand legacy situations, but surely anyone doing a major Lucene
upgrade can upgrade the JVM at the same time (the performance boosts
alone are worth it.)



-Yonik
http://incubator.apache.org/solr Solr, the open-source Lucene search server

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lucenelist2005 at danielnaber

May 27, 2006, 10:09 AM

Post #8 of 82 (5285 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On Samstag 27 Mai 2006 18:11, Yonik Seeley wrote:

> I understand legacy situations, but surely anyone doing a major Lucene
> upgrade can upgrade the JVM at the same time (the performance boosts
> alone are worth it.)

You can get the improved performance by running 1.4 code with the 1.5 JVM,
right? So that shouldn't be a reason to require 1.5.

Regards
Daniel

--
http://www.danielnaber.de

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rengels at ix

May 27, 2006, 10:33 AM

Post #9 of 82 (5271 views)
Permalink
RE: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

Correct. It is purely a coding issue which can lead to greater productivity
by the developers - which helps out everyone.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Naber [mailto:lucenelist2005 [at] danielnaber]
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 12:09 PM
To: java-dev [at] lucene
Subject: Re: Lucene and Java 1.5

On Samstag 27 Mai 2006 18:11, Yonik Seeley wrote:

> I understand legacy situations, but surely anyone doing a major Lucene
> upgrade can upgrade the JVM at the same time (the performance boosts
> alone are worth it.)

You can get the improved performance by running 1.4 code with the 1.5 JVM,
right? So that shouldn't be a reason to require 1.5.

Regards
Daniel

--
http://www.danielnaber.de

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vajda at osafoundation

May 27, 2006, 11:21 AM

Post #10 of 82 (5275 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On Sat, 27 May 2006, Yonik Seeley wrote:

> On 5/27/06, Daniel Naber <lucenelist2005 [at] danielnaber> wrote:
>> If someone wants to add 1.5-dependent modules to
>> the contrib area that would be okay for me though.
>
> +1
>
> As far as Java1.4 or Java1.5 for Lucene core, I agree that it would
> almost be nicer for developers than users. Maybe we should try and
> get a feeling for how many people this might inconvenience...
>
> So is there anyone that can run on Java1.4 but can't run on Java1.5?
> I understand legacy situations, but surely anyone doing a major Lucene
> upgrade can upgrade the JVM at the same time (the performance boosts
> alone are worth it.)

As long as gcj is not implementing the new language features in 1.5, I'm stuck
with 1.4. If the Lucene core started using 1.5-only features, I'd have to
create more and more patches for PyLucene to still build and stay current with
Java Lucene.

Andi..

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yseeley at gmail

May 27, 2006, 11:49 AM

Post #11 of 82 (5289 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On 5/27/06, Daniel Naber <lucenelist2005 [at] danielnaber> wrote:
> On Samstag 27 Mai 2006 18:11, Yonik Seeley wrote:
>
> > I understand legacy situations, but surely anyone doing a major Lucene
> > upgrade can upgrade the JVM at the same time (the performance boosts
> > alone are worth it.)
>
> You can get the improved performance by running 1.4 code with the 1.5 JVM,
> right? So that shouldn't be a reason to require 1.5.

My point was that most people doing a major upgrade of Lucene would
also want to upgrade the JVM just for the performance boosts. Hence
boosting the Lucene requirement to Java1.5 shouldn't be a burden for
most people.

However I don't think Lucene 2.0 is the right place for requiring
Java5, since it's already released and has no Java1.5 requirement. If
we changed now, we would be requiring a JVM upgrade for patch releases
(not good).

-Yonik
http://incubator.apache.org/solr Solr, the open-source Lucene search server

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yseeley at gmail

May 27, 2006, 11:50 AM

Post #12 of 82 (5287 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On 5/27/06, Andi Vajda <vajda [at] osafoundation> wrote:
> As long as gcj is not implementing the new language features in 1.5, I'm stuck
> with 1.4.

Good point Andi... that's a pretty compelling reason to stick with 1.4 for now.

-Yonik
http://incubator.apache.org/solr Solr, the open-source Lucene search server

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hossman_lucene at fucit

May 27, 2006, 11:51 AM

Post #13 of 82 (5281 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

: Java 1.5 has nice features, sure. But these features are mostly useful
: during development, they are less usefull for existing and proven software
: like Lucene. I think at least the core of Lucene should stay compatible

As I understood it, the long term road map has been that 2.0.* would be th
last major stable revision without serious API changes, and that 2.1.*
versions are where serious refactoring/API changes might take place. Some
of those 1.5 features might be very handy durring that process, and the
use of Generics could help make the resulting APIs more self documenting
and bulletproof.

It seems to me that targetting 1.5 for 2.1.* is a smart way to proceed.



-Hoss


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hossman_lucene at fucit

May 27, 2006, 11:58 AM

Post #14 of 82 (5279 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

:
: As long as gcj is not implementing the new language features in 1.5, I'm stuck
: with 1.4. If the Lucene core started using 1.5-only features, I'd have to
: create more and more patches for PyLucene to still build and stay current with
: Java Lucene.

As I understand it (based on nothing more then what google tells me for
"GCJ 1.5") some 1.5 features are already supported by GCJ, and work is in
progress to get the full list ... which makes me thing that as long as all
lucene 2.0.* releases are java1.4 compatible, it may not be the end of the
world for lucene 2.1.* releases to contain java1.5 code, if we assume that
lucene 2.1.0 probably won't happen for a while anyway if it's going to
include significant API changes.



-Hoss


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simon.willnauer at googlemail

May 27, 2006, 12:05 PM

Post #15 of 82 (5290 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

I fully agree with you yonik, it won't be a good idea to change to 1.5
within the patch releases of the version 2. But it is generally a good
idea to think about using the 1.5 platform in future development.
What's about using the 1.5 platform as a requirement on new projects
like the contrib GDATA Server? We gonna have the same problem with the
Gdata Server if we would go for Java 1.4 and the release of 1.6 is
near, isn't it!

Simon

On 5/27/06, Yonik Seeley <yseeley [at] gmail> wrote:
> On 5/27/06, Daniel Naber <lucenelist2005 [at] danielnaber> wrote:
> > On Samstag 27 Mai 2006 18:11, Yonik Seeley wrote:
> >
> > > I understand legacy situations, but surely anyone doing a major Lucene
> > > upgrade can upgrade the JVM at the same time (the performance boosts
> > > alone are worth it.)
> >
> > You can get the improved performance by running 1.4 code with the 1.5 JVM,
> > right? So that shouldn't be a reason to require 1.5.
>
> My point was that most people doing a major upgrade of Lucene would
> also want to upgrade the JVM just for the performance boosts. Hence
> boosting the Lucene requirement to Java1.5 shouldn't be a burden for
> most people.
>
> However I don't think Lucene 2.0 is the right place for requiring
> Java5, since it's already released and has no Java1.5 requirement. If
> we changed now, we would be requiring a JVM upgrade for patch releases
> (not good).
>
> -Yonik
> http://incubator.apache.org/solr Solr, the open-source Lucene search server
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe [at] lucene
> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help [at] lucene
>
>


hossman_lucene at fucit

May 27, 2006, 12:21 PM

Post #16 of 82 (5297 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

: idea to think about using the 1.5 platform in future development. What's
: about using the 1.5 platform as a requirement on new projects like the
: contrib GDATA Server? We gonna have the same problem with the Gdata

someone mentioned the idea that contrib packages should be free to
use/require 1.5 ... i haven't seen any objection to that.

the build files would need to be reworked slightly, but that's not a
blocker issue.



-Hoss


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chuck at manawiz

May 27, 2006, 12:41 PM

Post #17 of 82 (5275 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

Another issue concerns user contributions of patches and enhancements. I
have a significant body of code that might be contributed, all in 1.5,
to do things that have been requested by others who participate in the
lists. As most of the development community is using 1.5 now, Lucene may
get fewer good user contributions if it insists on keeping the core in
the dark ages of 1.4. 1.5 is a major improvement in Java development.
This will benefit the API's as well as the implementation. If 2.1+ is
the platform for new api's and functionality, it is will be an
impediment for both of these reasons to restrict it to 1.4.

Chuck

Chris Hostetter wrote on 05/27/2006 09:21 AM:
> : idea to think about using the 1.5 platform in future development. What's
> : about using the 1.5 platform as a requirement on new projects like the
> : contrib GDATA Server? We gonna have the same problem with the Gdata
>
> someone mentioned the idea that contrib packages should be free to
> use/require 1.5 ... i haven't seen any objection to that.
>
> the build files would need to be reworked slightly, but that's not a
> blocker issue.
>
>
>
> -Hoss
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe [at] lucene
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>
>


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vajda at osafoundation

May 27, 2006, 12:43 PM

Post #18 of 82 (5293 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On Sat, 27 May 2006, Chris Hostetter wrote:

> :
> : As long as gcj is not implementing the new language features in 1.5, I'm stuck
> : with 1.4. If the Lucene core started using 1.5-only features, I'd have to
> : create more and more patches for PyLucene to still build and stay current with
> : Java Lucene.
>
> As I understand it (based on nothing more then what google tells me for
> "GCJ 1.5") some 1.5 features are already supported by GCJ, and work is in
> progress to get the full list ... which makes me thing that as long as all
> lucene 2.0.* releases are java1.4 compatible, it may not be the end of the
> world for lucene 2.1.* releases to contain java1.5 code, if we assume that
> lucene 2.1.0 probably won't happen for a while anyway if it's going to
> include significant API changes.

There are two aspects to this:

- the new language features such as generics:
they are in the works, quoting from http://lwn.net/Articles/171139/

"Tom Tromey is the main developer of GCJX, the GCJ frontend successor that
supports the new 1.5 language features. He surprised everybody [1] soon
after the GPLv3 draft was released by proposing to look into replacing
the Java source-to-bytecode part of the GCJ compiler with the Eclipse
compiler (ECJ) instead of using his own GCJX effort. The GPLv3 isn't
final yet (and won't be for a year), and there are lots of technical
issues to discuss. But sharing code and resources between projects seems
like a very attractive feature."

as you can see, the future looks bright, but my guess is that this is at
least one year off.

- the new runtime library features: the GNU Classpath project [2] that is
implementing the gcj java runtime. Although a lot of progress is being
made there, the GNU classpath library has never been 100% complete when
compared to the current Sun JRE. For example, regex support wasn't there
in gcj 3.x. The holes are usually easy to plug because, via gcj's CNI
interface [3], I can implement these in C++ or hook them into the python
runtime.

In other words, filling in missing runtime features is easy with CNI but
working around missing new language features can only be done by recoding
the pieces not supported by gcj.

Andi..

[1] http://www.peakpeak.com/~tromey/blog/2006/01/29/
[2] http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/
[3] http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcj/About-CNI.html

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eksdev at yahoo

May 27, 2006, 12:56 PM

Post #19 of 82 (5287 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

so far:

pro:
1. Code readability

2. Faster contribs (as many of active developers moved to it allready)

3. "moving forward effect" as sooner or later it will be
the same argument for 1.6, 1.7... good feeling to stay close

4. Some performance boost not only from better hotspot, but from new jvm features (eg. StringBuilder for Analyzers, new/better sync features can be used like atomics...)

5. coding efficiency in general better

contra:
1. GCJ users as so far nobody with jvm complained

2. Patching (bug fixes...), can this be dealt with by branching/tagging in svm? Ususally not major refactorings, just bug fixes?


Is that all to be considered?







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robbat2 at orbis-terrarum

May 27, 2006, 1:09 PM

Post #20 of 82 (5280 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On Sat, May 27, 2006 at 02:50:46PM -0400, Yonik Seeley wrote:
> On 5/27/06, Andi Vajda <vajda [at] osafoundation> wrote:
> >As long as gcj is not implementing the new language features in 1.5, I'm
> >stuck
> >with 1.4.
> Good point Andi... that's a pretty compelling reason to stick with 1.4 for
> now.
As another one that I ran into, until gcj gets 1.5 going, Linux on SPARC
and Alpha platforms is stuck at the 1.4 level - there are no 1.5 jdk/jre
available. I think some other platforms may be stuck at a similar point
- possibly IRIX amongst them.

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
E-Mail : robbat2 [at] orbis-terrarum
Home Page : http://www.orbis-terrarum.net/?l=people.robbat2
ICQ# : 30269588 or 41961639
GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85


kalle at snigel

May 27, 2006, 1:50 PM

Post #21 of 82 (5271 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On Sat, 2006-05-27 at 13:09 -0700, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>
> As another one that I ran into, until gcj gets 1.5 going, Linux on
> SPARC and Alpha platforms is stuck at the 1.4 level - there are no 1.5
> jdk/jre available. I think some other platforms may be stuck at a
> similar point - possibly IRIX amongst them.

Is that really something Lucene should worry about, how some minority
architectures are not up to date with the JMV?

I've been stuck with Linux PPC for quite some years now. Recently the
IBM 1.5 was released. The 1.4 from IBM had serious problems with the JIT
and could not be run on most modern PPC platforms. Prior to that there
was GCJ, not fully ported at that time. When most my friends was
switching to 1.5 I was still on Blackdown 1.3, and had to stay there.

My assessment was that if I really needed 1.4, then I would have to
switch architecture that supports it or wait. I never felt that the
world should hold their projects back so I could run them on my machine.

I had to run outdate stuff. It was a major pain. I was broke. Got used.

After all, Lucene comes with version numbers.


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robbat2 at orbis-terrarum

May 27, 2006, 2:05 PM

Post #22 of 82 (5282 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On Sat, May 27, 2006 at 10:50:42PM +0200, karl wettin wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-05-27 at 13:09 -0700, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > As another one that I ran into, until gcj gets 1.5 going, Linux on
> > SPARC and Alpha platforms is stuck at the 1.4 level - there are no 1.5
> > jdk/jre available. I think some other platforms may be stuck at a
> > similar point - possibly IRIX amongst them.
> Is that really something Lucene should worry about, how some minority
> architectures are not up to date with the JMV?
I'm just saying that for some places it may be a concern, so the 2.x
series should try to stay functional with 1.4.

> After all, Lucene comes with version numbers.
Yes it does, I just think the core functionality shouldn't be so quick
to change away from supporting 1.4.

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
E-Mail : robbat2 [at] orbis-terrarum
Home Page : http://www.orbis-terrarum.net/?l=people.robbat2
ICQ# : 30269588 or 41961639
GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85


rengels at ix

May 27, 2006, 2:20 PM

Post #23 of 82 (5268 views)
Permalink
RE: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

I think 2.0 should allow (and use) JDK 1.5 source code. If you need JDK 1.4
compatibility, use Lucene 1.9.



-----Original Message-----
From: karl wettin [mailto:kalle [at] snigel]
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 4:09 AM
To: java-dev [at] lucene
Subject: Lucene and Java 1.5

Will code with 1.5 syntax be committed?


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chuck at manawiz

May 27, 2006, 2:25 PM

Post #24 of 82 (5280 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

Robin H. Johnson wrote on 05/27/2006 11:05 AM:
>> After all, Lucene comes with version numbers.
>>
> Yes it does, I just think the core functionality shouldn't be so quick
> to change away from supporting 1.4.
>
2 years is hardly quick. Performance, contributions from the vast
majority of the developer community, faster and more reliable
development, better compile-time error checking (generics), modern
api's... I think these trump the concerns about legacy or niche
environments with poor java support. Why should an environment that is
stuck in a dated java expect to run the latest and greatest lucene?

Chuck


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kalle at snigel

May 27, 2006, 2:27 PM

Post #25 of 82 (5270 views)
Permalink
Re: Lucene and Java 1.5 [In reply to]

On Sat, 2006-05-27 at 14:05 -0700, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, May 27, 2006 at 10:50:42PM +0200, karl wettin wrote:
> > Is that really something Lucene should worry about, how some minority
> > architectures are not up to date with the JMV?
>
> I'm just saying that for some places it may be a concern, so the 2.x
> series should try to stay functional with 1.4.
>
> > After all, Lucene comes with version numbers.
>
> Yes it does, I just think the core functionality shouldn't be so quick
> to change away from supporting 1.4.

How about a binary 1.4-target distribution?




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