Mailing List Archive: Linux-HA: Users

ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project

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abeekhof at suse

Dec 7, 2007, 5:14 AM

Post #1 of 11 (3481 views)
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ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project

After much careful consideration, it is increasingly clear to some of
us that the CRM needs to be a separate project rather than being
bundled with Heartbeat.

As such, it has been decided that 2.1.3 will be the last release of a
combined Heartbeat + CRM.

After this point, I will extract (only) the CRM code (of which I am
the author) and maintain it as a new project that will eventually
support both the Heartbeat and OpenAIS communications layers.

Except for the project's additional package that will need to be
installed, users continuing to use Heartbeat messaging shouldn't
notice any difference at all. The new project will be fully
compatible with existing clusters and will continue to rely on
Heartbeat for things like RAs, the LRM and support libraries like
clplumbing.

As more details of the project are decided upon we will make them
available at the CRM's new home:
http://www.clusterlabs.org

I will remain on these lists to answer questions, however all CRM
development (including bug fixes) will occur as part of the new project.

In closing, I'd like to thank all our users and testers over the last
4 years. We hope for your continued support as we work to provide the
best cluster resource manager available.

Regards,
Andrew

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matilda at grandel

Dec 7, 2007, 6:24 AM

Post #2 of 11 (3338 views)
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Re: ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

Hi Andrew,

can you give some explanation to us why this decision was made?
What is the vision/idea behind that?

Best regards
Andreas Mock

>>> Andrew Beekhof <abeekhof[at]suse.de> 07.12.2007 14:14 >>>
After much careful consideration, it is increasingly clear to some of
us that the CRM needs to be a separate project rather than being
bundled with Heartbeat.

As such, it has been decided that 2.1.3 will be the last release of a
combined Heartbeat + CRM.

After this point, I will extract (only) the CRM code (of which I am
the author) and maintain it as a new project that will eventually
support both the Heartbeat and OpenAIS communications layers.

Except for the project's additional package that will need to be
installed, users continuing to use Heartbeat messaging shouldn't
notice any difference at all. The new project will be fully
compatible with existing clusters and will continue to rely on
Heartbeat for things like RAs, the LRM and support libraries like
clplumbing.

As more details of the project are decided upon we will make them
available at the CRM's new home:
http://www.clusterlabs.org

I will remain on these lists to answer questions, however all CRM
development (including bug fixes) will occur as part of the new project.

In closing, I'd like to thank all our users and testers over the last
4 years. We hope for your continued support as we work to provide the
best cluster resource manager available.

Regards,
Andrew

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lmb at suse

Dec 7, 2007, 9:17 AM

Post #3 of 11 (3338 views)
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Re: ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

On 2007-12-07T15:24:41, matilda matilda <matilda[at]grandel.de> wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> can you give some explanation to us why this decision was made?
> What is the vision/idea behind that?

I'm not Andrew, but the primary motivator is that the CRM will in the
future be a dual-stacked effort, and this makes it easier for users who
wish to run the CRM on either/or but not both.

Also for developers, as the package boundaries become a lot clearer, and
interfaces better defined.

Another benefit is that updating the packages independently - hb itself
is very stable, while the CRM lives on a more frequent release cycle
still - will be possible.

For end-users, it will not have any real consequences: when the "new"
CRM is installed, it'll have package dependencies on the required comm
layer and all will be well.

There'll be no duplication of development effort; this is merely a
spin-off.

Regards,
Lars

--
Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde

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alanr at unix

Dec 7, 2007, 9:41 AM

Post #4 of 11 (3343 views)
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Re: [Linux-ha-dev] ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

Andrew's contributions to the Linux-HA community will be missed. I am
sad that he has unilaterally decided to leave Linux-HA and fork his code
into in a separate project.

I have suspected that this was coming for a number of months, but as you
probably have guessed, Andrew won't reply to emails I send him, or
answer the phone when I call - except when I hide my caller id. I wish
I had known how to fix that without him feeling he needed to leave the
project.

I'm not sure what this means yet.

It may mean that we're in for a time of difficult coordination that I
find hard to imagine working - because the need for coordination with a
separate project will be higher than if it were in the same project -
and communication and coordination was the problem in the first place.

D-:

Or it may mean that we'll be looking for someone to pick up maintaining
the CRM.

D-:

I really do not know. But if anyone is interested in picking up the
CRM, do let me know.

In any case, for the convenience of the project, I expect that we'll be
mirroring his work from his new project on our Mercurial repository - at
least until we get this figured out. I'll let you know when that's set up.

Or maybe Andrew leaving and going his own way will work out for the best
and things will be better than I could possibly imagine. Anyone who has
ideas on how this can be made to happen, please email me.

--
Alan Robertson <alanr[at]unix.sh>

"Openness is the foundation and preservative of friendship... Let me
claim from you at all times your undisguised opinions." - William
Wilberforce
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lmb at suse

Dec 7, 2007, 9:52 AM

Post #5 of 11 (3346 views)
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Re: Re: [Linux-ha-dev] ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

On 2007-12-07T10:41:47, Alan Robertson <alanr[at]unix.sh> wrote:

> Andrew's contributions to the Linux-HA community will be missed. I am sad
> that he has unilaterally decided to leave Linux-HA and fork his code into
> in a separate project.

It is not a fork; very little redundant development will take place.

> I have suspected that this was coming for a number of months, but as you
> probably have guessed, Andrew won't reply to emails I send him, or answer
> the phone when I call - except when I hide my caller id. I wish I had
> known how to fix that without him feeling he needed to leave the project.

The truth is that we've tried for years and become more and more
frustrated with each other. It may be desirable to split (not fork) the
projects so the coordination becomes easier at clearly defined project
boundaries.

> It may mean that we're in for a time of difficult coordination that I find
> hard to imagine working - because the need for coordination with a separate
> project will be higher than if it were in the same project - and
> communication and coordination was the problem in the first place.

I doubt it. We clearly have very different concepts of various aspects
of release and project management, so trying to fit them into a single
project is what caused the most friction. I fully support Andrew's
decision and agree that this can only be easier on everyone's nerves.

Some times, agreeing to disagree is the right answer, and it is about
the only one we've not tried.

> Or it may mean that we'll be looking for someone to pick up maintaining the
> CRM.

_That_ however would be a fork, because it would cause dual development.
The CRM will continue to support both stacks (heartbeat and openAIS) for
the forseeable future; there is _no need_ for anyone to "pick up"
maintaing the CRM.

It _will_ continue to be maintained, and it _will_ continue to work with
heartbeat for the forseeable future.

Users who install all packages will not notice the difference. Anything
else would be madness.

Regards,
Lars

--
Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde

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david.lang at digitalinsight

Dec 7, 2007, 10:19 AM

Post #6 of 11 (3348 views)
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Re: Re: [Linux-ha-dev] ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRMto become its own project [In reply to]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Alan Robertson wrote:

> Andrew's contributions to the Linux-HA community will be missed. I am sad
> that he has unilaterally decided to leave Linux-HA and fork his code into in
> a separate project.
>
> I have suspected that this was coming for a number of months, but as you
> probably have guessed, Andrew won't reply to emails I send him, or answer the
> phone when I call - except when I hide my caller id. I wish I had known how
> to fix that without him feeling he needed to leave the project.
>
> I'm not sure what this means yet.
>
> It may mean that we're in for a time of difficult coordination that I find
> hard to imagine working - because the need for coordination with a separate
> project will be higher than if it were in the same project - and
> communication and coordination was the problem in the first place.
>
> D-:
>
> Or it may mean that we'll be looking for someone to pick up maintaining the
> CRM.
>
> D-:
>
> I really do not know. But if anyone is interested in picking up the CRM, do
> let me know.
>
> In any case, for the convenience of the project, I expect that we'll be
> mirroring his work from his new project on our Mercurial repository - at
> least until we get this figured out. I'll let you know when that's set up.
>
> Or maybe Andrew leaving and going his own way will work out for the best and
> things will be better than I could possibly imagine. Anyone who has ideas on
> how this can be made to happen, please email me.

I am a huge proponent of creating and maintaining well defined interfaces
between components.

Having the CRM be seperate from heartbeat just forces these interfaces to be
very solidly defined so that an update to one package doesn't break other
packages.

but I don't think that there have really been many changes to this interface.
the changes seem to have been in one or the other.

the fact that heartbeat can be run very sucessfully without the CRM (in v1
'haresources' mode) is a good indication that they are rally seperate anyway.

If CRM is going to be used for multiple purposes then splitting it off is a good
idea (and I would suggest that it may be appropriate to split the GUI from the
core CRM as well).

I will only start to get worried if I start to see interface changes takeing
place that aren't coordinated or compatible between the projects.

David Lang
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bob.d.builder at mac

Dec 7, 2007, 1:34 PM

Post #7 of 11 (3328 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: [Linux-ha-dev] ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

Hi, Andrew here, not a lovable children's character.

Apologies for the deception, but alas it has become necessary.
In addition to utterly misrepresenting me, Alan has taken away my (and
Lars') ability to respond.

Item #1 - I have not unilaterally left Linux-HA (at least not by my
own choice).

As I very clearly wrote, my intention was to remain here to answer all
your questions and had hoped to continue to contribute to the
Heartbeat project.

If you do not see any further responses from me on this list, it will
only be because I am (still) being censored by Alan. Astute observes
may recall an episode involving censorship earlier this year...

Item #2 - The new project is not a fork.

We are taking a monolithic project and dividing it into two logical
pieces for the purpose of further project growth. See Lars' excellent
explanation earlier in this thread.

In short, the complete cluster stack you are using today will continue
to be 100% supported.

It is disappointing that communication has been stifled in this way as
it impacts you guys the most. We have set up a new mailing list at

http://list.clusterlabs.org/

where people can freely discuss anything related to the CRM and
clusters generally.

So just to reiterate...

The CRM is not going away. It's not being dropped and your questions
will not go unanswered.
We will still be here fixing bugs and building the best cluster
resource manager we possibly can.

Regards,
Andrew Beekhof
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alanr at unix

Dec 7, 2007, 1:55 PM

Post #8 of 11 (3328 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: [Linux-ha-dev] ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

Because of the surprise timing of this announcement, right in the last
phases of a release, and during time when I'm supposed to be on
vacation, I'm postponing discussion on this until at least Monday to
give me a chance to get testing back on track.

Although I did get some hints that this _might_ happen, I certainly
didn't know it was going to, or when - I need a few days to get a better
perspective on it.

So for now, I ask that we postpone discussion on this matter.

--
Alan Robertson <alanr[at]unix.sh>

"Openness is the foundation and preservative of friendship... Let me
claim from you at all times your undisguised opinions." - William
Wilberforce
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alanr at unix

Dec 7, 2007, 1:57 PM

Post #9 of 11 (3330 views)
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Re: Re: [Linux-ha-dev] ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

Moderation was already removed.

Please see my other note.

--
Alan Robertson <alanr[at]unix.sh>

"Openness is the foundation and preservative of friendship... Let me
claim from you at all times your undisguised opinions." - William
Wilberforce
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lmb at suse

Dec 8, 2007, 6:56 AM

Post #10 of 11 (3336 views)
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Re: Re: [Linux-ha-dev] ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

On 2007-12-07T14:55:31, Alan Robertson <alanr[at]unix.sh> wrote:

> Because of the surprise timing of this announcement, right in the last
> phases of a release, and during time when I'm supposed to be on vacation,
> I'm postponing discussion on this until at least Monday to give me a chance
> to get testing back on track.

It is not "surprising" to you; you've asked me a few days before when we
were going to announce this. And we've discussed this several times over
the last two years at least.

It has nothing to do with the current release; as Andrew pointed out,
this split is post-2.1.3, while 2.1.3 is still going to be a single
package.

We did not now you were on vacation(*).

> Although I did get some hints that this _might_ happen, I certainly didn't
> know it was going to, or when - I need a few days to get a better
> perspective on it.
>
> So for now, I ask that we postpone discussion on this matter.

There is very little to discuss on the matter itself, except possibly
the technical implementation details. But even those are fairly obvious,
unless one gets political about them - new CRM packages require
heartbeat to be installed, all is well.

I'd like again to mention that this is not a fork, as you kept saying;
we're splitting out what, in so many ways, is a separate project anyway.
It isn't two maintainers disagreeing - because the CRM part of the code
always only had just one maintainer.

We have the highest respect for the user base and wish to continue to
provide them with a seamless experience.

However, your immediate reaction may have reminded everybody that
there's also a non-technical aspect to this split; and I believe that
this split can only be good for our users and customers.

And, quite seriously, my nerves.

Regards,
Lars

(*): It is probably not be very polite to point out that you yourself
insisted that vacations during the 2.1.3 release ought to be put up on
the web at http://wiki.linux-ha.org/ReleaseTesting/2.1.3, including
schedule changes, and how well the discussion on release management was
handled etc; but while impolite, it might help to underline some other
points as well.

--
Team lead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde

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lmb at suse

Dec 8, 2007, 7:01 AM

Post #11 of 11 (3327 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: [Linux-ha-dev] ANNOUNCE: Project Organization - CRM to become its own project [In reply to]

On 2007-12-07T14:57:25, Alan Robertson <alanr[at]unix.sh> wrote:

> Moderation was already removed.

It was a rather childish thing to do, and an active abuse of power and
control.

It was possibly the best thing you could do to convince us that we are
heading down the right path.

Regards,
Lars

--
Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde

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