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463 kernel developers missing!

 

 

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jonsmirl at gmail

Jul 30, 2008, 8:51 AM

Post #76 of 98 (265 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 7/30/08, Alan Cox <alan [at] lxorguk> wrote:
> > > The GPL doesn't trump data protection law. It can't.
> >
> > By making a submission to a GPL'd project didn't you grant a license
> > for your data to be used? That was Ted's point when he posted the
> > developer's certification.
>
>
> Data protection law trumps the GPL. The fact my address is public does
> not give you the rights globally to process it.
>

There are a lot of companies (including Google's code database)
indexing the kernel source and processing it into new form. What is
their standing?

--
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jonsmirl [at] gmail
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rene.herman at keyaccess

Jul 30, 2008, 9:32 AM

Post #77 of 98 (260 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 30-07-08 17:32, Adrian Bunk wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 02:54:05PM +0200, Rene Herman wrote:

>> But let us leave this discussion be. It's not going anywhere anyway.
>
> There's one thing where it might actually go further:
>
> You actually have a good point here, and I'm not disagreeing with it.
>
> I've added Linus to the recipients since stuff like e.g. Tested-by or
> Bisected-by tags actually undermine what the DCE 1.1 update should
> have accomplished. So if DCE 1.1 (d) is considered to be legally
> required for public indefinite storage of name and email address
> we have a problem here.

I was afraid you'd conclude that... Me, I conclude that we should just
not do the "harvest all these addresses into a big file" thing that
might make it more than a theoretical problem...

But that's just me.

Rene.
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tytso at mit

Jul 30, 2008, 9:40 AM

Post #78 of 98 (260 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 04:14:08PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > The GPL doesn't trump data protection law. It can't.
> >
> > By making a submission to a GPL'd project didn't you grant a license
> > for your data to be used? That was Ted's point when he posted the
> > developer's certification.
>
> Data protection law trumps the GPL. The fact my address is public does
> not give you the rights globally to process it.

Yes, but when you submit patches using the required Signed-off-by:,
you are agreeing to the following from the Developer's Certification
of Origin:

(d) I understand and agree that this project and the contribution
are public and that a record of the contribution (including all
personal information I submit with it, including my sign-off) is
maintained indefinitely and may be redistributed consistent with
this project or the open source license(s) involved.

How this interacts with Europe's Data Protection Law, and whether
correcting spelling errors in e-mail addresses to make it easier to
canonicalize the list is consistent with what is allowed by the GPL,
Europe's Data Protection Law, and the permission given when a
developer's signs the DCO's, is probably not worth debating on LKML.
Let someone file a complaint with the EU who can try to arrest Jon
Smirl the next time he enters Europe, or get him extadicted to the
Hague for violations against international law if they really think
they can justify it, argue about whether they can do so in other
forums; if you put a beer in my hand, maybe I'd even be willing to
debate it in a bar at some future conference. But does it really make
sense to argue about it here?

- Ted

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alan at letsannoyjonsmirl

Jul 30, 2008, 9:49 AM

Post #79 of 98 (264 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

> debate it in a bar at some future conference. But does it really make
> sense to argue about it here?

No but perhaps Jon could simply show some manners when people request him
politely not to do that. He doesn't seem to want to debate manners, just
law.

Alan
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torvalds at linux-foundation

Jul 30, 2008, 9:56 AM

Post #80 of 98 (260 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>
> I've added Linus to the recipients since stuff like e.g. Tested-by or
> Bisected-by tags actually undermine what the DCE 1.1 update should
> have accomplished. So if DCE 1.1 (d) is considered to be legally
> required for public indefinite storage of name and email address
> we have a problem here.

Quite frankly, since the patches are public anyway, and the code is open
source, I personally think that worry is just silly fear-mongering by
people who take lawyers not just too seriously, but then think that judges
and lawyers are too stupid to think for themselves.

We added the lines to the DCO-1.1 because we wanted to make it _obvious_
that the legal requirements for the sign-off would never clash with any
possible insane reading of things, but it was a "dot the i's" kind of
thing.

The fact is, people who are involved in Linux know it's public. People
make public bug-reports, and they _expect_ to get attributed. I think any
worries about indefinite storage should be the other way around: we should
strive to make sure that the attributions are consistent and correct.

If somebody really doesn't want their name and email known, they can say
that. We won't accept patches from them, but it's certainly no problem to
suppress "tested-by" etc things on request. Not that I have ever seen such
a request that I can remember, nor do I really expect to ever see one
(unless it's as a perverse reaction to this email where people just want
to be silly).

Anyway, normal people talking about obscure and insane readings of some
random law is stupid. You should worry about "doing the right thing", not
about trying to read law as if it was some mindless machine that acted
like the computers you're used to.

Let's face it, _everybody_ breaks laws if you think about them as some
inflexible and absolute rules. Probably every day.

You roll through a STOP-sign (in California, it was almost as if that's
what the sign _meant_). Maybe you take a shortcut when crossing the street
and you don't walk _exactly_ on the zebra-crossing (or against a red light
just because there were obviously no cars within _miles_ of you). Maybe
you drive 58mph in a 55 zone. Maybe you walk around and spit out the
cherry-pits on the street rather than in a garbage can.

Only insane people with OCD cannot understand that things aren't ever that
black-and-white. Use your good _judgement_ for chrissake!

Linus
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stefanr at s5r6

Jul 30, 2008, 10:05 AM

Post #81 of 98 (260 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 02:54:05PM +0200, Rene Herman wrote:
>> You only certify anything when _you_ put your address in. Given that
>> it's a very common occurence that not you but _others_ do, this does not
>> mean a _single_ thing. Tested-by, Bisected-by, what have you...
[...]
> stuff like e.g. Tested-by or Bisected-by tags actually undermine what
> the DCE 1.1 update should have accomplished.
[...]

Last time when I read a discussion about these tags, people at least at
this side of the pond seemed to come to the conclusion that we ask
testers for their consent if in doubt, before adding such a tag if they
didn't do so themselves. (That's different from how we handle Acked-by:
from fellow developers which we often imply from an informally given OK.)
--
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simon at fire

Jul 30, 2008, 10:53 AM

Post #82 of 98 (259 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 30/07/08 13:58, Paul Rolland wrote:
> We could blame Jon for publishing the his list on the list without prior
> information, but not for creating it.
> And I certainly would like to see the .mailmap appear at my next git pull ;)

The fact still remains that most of the entries in Jon's .mailmap file are
redundant. I may have three email addresses referred to in git, but my name
is the same in all cases. Until "git shortlog" is changed to link an author's
commits without using their name there is no need to include me and several
other people in there. Especially not anyone with only one email address
in the commit log.

(It would also be easy to sha1 hash all the email addresses in the shortlog
mailmap, using a hash lookup to find the name, although it would make it
a bit difficult to find what any one address is without grepping the log.)

The ChangeLogs do include all email addresses contributing to that release,
but in general I think a big list of them which people can use with no
effort to spam every developer is a bad thing. On the other hand maybe
those people don't know what .files are ;)

--
Simon Arlott
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davids at webmaster

Jul 30, 2008, 11:03 AM

Post #83 of 98 (263 views)
Permalink
RE: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

> > No, but that all the submissions were made under the GPL, whose
> > explicit purpose is to allow information to be changed,
> > processed, and reused for other purposes does.

> So why hasn't Jon included a copy of the GPL and the sources with his new
> data set ?

I would assume that was either an error or because he believes the
information contains insufficient creative content to be covered by
copyright. It seems to me more like a functional, factual report. But I can
see both sides of that argument.

> > If you don't want your submissions to be in the public record
> > for all eternity to be used for any lawful purpose, don't make
> > them to a GPL project.

> The GPL doesn't trump data protection law. It can't.

No. But the GPL can be used to show the intent to consent to the use of the
information by others. I don't know the data protection law in your country,
of course.

> > You have no right whatsoever to look at how one person chooses
> > to use them and say "I didn't agree to that". Yes, you did. You
> > gave up the right to approve or reject each use when you made the
> > submission. If you don't like it, submit under some other license.

> Disagree - firstly national law trumps licences, secondly there is the
> (regrettably increasingly) small matter of manners.

I think it's terribly bad manners to submit something to a GPL project and
then complain when someone else uses it the way they want to. If you want
the benefit of using and modifying GPL software, you have to let others do
what they want with your contributions. If you don't find that deal fair,
don't make it. But then don't make the deal and then claim others are being
rude when they take what the deal gave them.

As for GPL only being about copyright, I don't think that's true. The GPL is
a copyright license. It grants you rights that the author would otherwise
hold exclusively under copyright. But it doesn't follow that the rights you
give up are only rights under copyright. See, for example, section 7.

If you want the rights GPL grants you under copyright, you have to give up
certain things, and not just copyright. One of the things you have to give
up is *any* legal mechanism that would permit you to restrict other people's
GPL rights.

GPL section 6 clearly prohibits you from using any data protection laws in
your jurisdiction to prevent someone else from modifying and redistributing
information you submitted under the GPL.

The "GPL only affects copyright" argument would mean that I could
redistribute modified GPL'd work with an EULA. Obviously, I can't do that.
Enforcing data protection laws to restrict rights granted under the GPL is
no different from enforcing an EULA to do ths same thing.

DS


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jonsmirl at gmail

Jul 30, 2008, 11:58 AM

Post #84 of 98 (264 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 7/30/08, Alan Cox <alan [at] letsannoyjonsmirl> wrote:
> > debate it in a bar at some future conference. But does it really make
> > sense to argue about it here?
>
>
> No but perhaps Jon could simply show some manners when people request him
> politely not to do that. He doesn't seem to want to debate manners, just
> law.

I didn't handle the removing the people from the list issue very well.
I got caught in the fact the log immutably records history and I
objected to editing history. I viewed this along the lines of George
Washington asking to be removed from text books. He was the first
president; we can't change that and we have to include him in the list
of presidents.

I still don't have a good solution for how to track the people who
don't want their names to appear without creating yet another list.

--
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl [at] gmail
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rene.herman at keyaccess

Jul 30, 2008, 12:41 PM

Post #85 of 98 (262 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 30-07-08 18:56, Linus Torvalds wrote:

> The fact is, people who are involved in Linux know it's public.
> People make public bug-reports, and they _expect_ to get attributed.

The problem here is just the _scale_ of publicness. Yes, Adrian's worry
can be shrugged of I'd say but this thread is about Jon Smirl collecting
addresses into a hugely public (because in tree) and hugely accessible
format and while your statement above might be true for 95% of cases
(99, I don't care) the use of people's personalia is just something you
cannot decide on yourself ever. It's theirs.

I'm in this thread because the from address on this message is in Jon's
file and while I've used it myself in the past, any time it's been part
of some Fooed-by tag recently it's because someone else put it there.
While it's the best address I have for these uses (and so I still use
it) it shouldn't work anymore even today, so I've been careful to put a
future proof relay address in when I advertise a contact myself.

As said before, I'm also not going to whine about it when others do put
it in because they shouldn't need to concern themselves with my odd
needs and wants and it's not a real problem anyway as long as the future
proof one is much _more_ public. I am, therefore, just not glad that
it's now being put into a file in the root of your highly publicized
tree of files.

Just a silly example, I know, but it doesn't really matter -- even if
someone tells me he fears cosmic channeling will get the better of him
if his personalia are in some resource I maintain, I jump to attention,
salute, shout "SIR YES SIR!" and remove it. It's his.

So now for example I'm debugging a problem with an ALSA driver with a
few users at least one of which has used different email addresses
during it and if I'm going to attribute any of their testing and effort,
I'm going to have to ask for permission and which address was meant to
be the public one. And sure, sure, I'd probably do that even today
anyway but right now it's mostly a principled thing while with the
addresses in the tree I'd sort of insist that anyone would, what with
them being top google hits for ever more.

So, if you were doing more than responding to Adrian's DCO worry here
(which I do not share) the above is what I have against harvesting the
addresses into a _way_ too public place/format. It's a matter of scale;
as opposed to the SCM metadata, your tree itself is way too public to
put anything in without very definite and explicit approval. I feel.

Rene.
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ray-lk at madrabbit

Jul 30, 2008, 12:47 PM

Post #86 of 98 (263 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Rene Herman <rene.herman [at] keyaccess> wrote:
> So, if you were doing more than responding to Adrian's DCO worry here (which
> I do not share) the above is what I have against harvesting the addresses
> into a _way_ too public place/format.

Er, what? Are you saying that a mailcap file inside a .gz or .bz2 or a
git repository is *more* public than a mailing list? or the already
existing gitweb history of the main tree?

I've noticed correlated (lagged) spikes in my spam volume to the email
address I use for this list whenever I post from it, so please
consider that you are perhaps being penny-wise and pound-foolish here.
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stefanr at s5r6

Jul 30, 2008, 12:49 PM

Post #87 of 98 (265 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

David Schwartz wrote:
> I think it's terribly bad manners to submit something to a GPL project and
> then complain when someone else uses it the way they want to.
...
> Enforcing data protection laws to restrict rights granted under the GPL is
> no different from enforcing an EULA to do ths same thing.

It's not the same thing, by far. EULA = "end user license agreement";
while "data protection law" is... law. Obviously, licenses (contracts)
must not be unlawful.

PS: You may use a GPL'd program any way you want --- although not for
unlawful purposes. But that's not a matter between you and the
copyright holder, it's between you and the law.

PPS: SCM metadata are not part of the program. The DCoO states that
the personal data submitted along with the contribution may be
redistributed "consistent... with the open source license(s) involved",
but it isn't discussed whether other terms of the licenses, notably
those on modification and derivatives, apply to the data supplied for
the certificate of origin.
--
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rene.herman at keyaccess

Jul 30, 2008, 1:00 PM

Post #88 of 98 (258 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 30-07-08 21:47, Ray Lee wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Rene Herman <rene.herman [at] keyaccess> wrote:

>> So, if you were doing more than responding to Adrian's DCO worry here (which
>> I do not share) the above is what I have against harvesting the addresses
>> into a _way_ too public place/format.
>
> Er, what? Are you saying that a mailcap file inside a .gz or .bz2 or a
> git repository is *more* public than a mailing list?

Inside a .gz of .bz2? But yes, definitely. Have you ever noticed exactly
how many fully indexed linux source trees there are out there on the
web? And how not any mailinglist archive does _not_ take the trouble to
obscure addresses?

> or the already existing gitweb history of the main tree?
>
> I've noticed correlated (lagged) spikes in my spam volume to the
> email address I use for this list whenever I post from it, so please
> consider that you are perhaps being penny-wise and pound-foolish
> here.

I'm not talking about spam. Spammers will get anything that's not
private. As said, I'm talking about scale of publicness.

Rene.

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rene.herman at keyaccess

Jul 30, 2008, 1:24 PM

Post #89 of 98 (264 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 30-07-08 21:41, Rene Herman wrote:

> So, if you were doing more than responding to Adrian's DCO worry here
> (which I do not share) the above is what I have against harvesting the
> addresses into a _way_ too public place/format. It's a matter of scale;
> as opposed to the SCM metadata, your tree itself is way too public to
> put anything in without very definite and explicit approval. I feel.

This, Jon, by the way also suggests something which I would consider
much better; _keep_ it as SCM metadata in some less-accesible format
under .git/

I doubt anyone's going to come up with an objection then. It's already
in that exact same spot after all.

Rene.
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jonsmirl at gmail

Jul 30, 2008, 1:27 PM

Post #90 of 98 (266 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 7/30/08, Rene Herman <rene.herman [at] keyaccess> wrote:
> On 30-07-08 21:41, Rene Herman wrote:
>
>
> > So, if you were doing more than responding to Adrian's DCO worry here
> (which I do not share) the above is what I have against harvesting the
> addresses into a _way_ too public place/format. It's a matter of scale; as
> opposed to the SCM metadata, your tree itself is way too public to put
> anything in without very definite and explicit approval. I feel.
> >
>
> This, Jon, by the way also suggests something which I would consider much
> better; _keep_ it as SCM metadata in some less-accesible format under .git/

The decision to keep it in .mailmap format was made before I was
involved. A smaller .mailmap has been in the tree since 2007. Existing
tools will need to be changed if the location is moved.

>
> I doubt anyone's going to come up with an objection then. It's already in
> that exact same spot after all.
>
> Rene.
>


--
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jonsmirl [at] gmail
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stefanr at s5r6

Jul 30, 2008, 1:38 PM

Post #91 of 98 (261 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

Jon Smirl wrote:
> The decision to keep it in .mailmap format was made before I was
> involved. A smaller .mailmap has been in the tree since 2007. Existing
> tools will need to be changed if the location is moved.

You were talking about new uses all the time, hence new tools.
--
Stefan Richter
-=====-==--- -=== ====-
http://arcgraph.de/sr/
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simon at fire

Jul 30, 2008, 2:05 PM

Post #92 of 98 (263 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On 30/07/08 19:58, Jon Smirl wrote:
> On 7/30/08, Alan Cox <alan [at] letsannoyjonsmirl> wrote:
>> > debate it in a bar at some future conference. But does it really make
>> > sense to argue about it here?
>>
>>
>> No but perhaps Jon could simply show some manners when people request him
>> politely not to do that. He doesn't seem to want to debate manners, just
>> law.
>
> I didn't handle the removing the people from the list issue very well.
> I got caught in the fact the log immutably records history and I
> objected to editing history. I viewed this along the lines of George
> Washington asking to be removed from text books. He was the first
> president; we can't change that and we have to include him in the list
> of presidents.
>
> I still don't have a good solution for how to track the people who
> don't want their names to appear without creating yet another list.
>

It's really simple - if there is actually some benefit to them being
in .mailmap (because their name is spelled differently in some commits),
then contact them. Otherwise, you can assume they don't want to be on it.

That should cut down the number of people considerably... I can only see
one example in the A section (Auke Kok).

--
Simon Arlott
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davids at webmaster

Jul 30, 2008, 3:25 PM

Post #93 of 98 (253 views)
Permalink
RE: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

I'll try to make this my last response on the issue, if possible.

Stefan Richter wrote:

> David Schwartz wrote:

> > I think it's terribly bad manners to submit something to a GPL
> > project and
> > then complain when someone else uses it the way they want to.
> > ...
> > Enforcing data protection laws to restrict rights granted under
> > the GPL is
> > no different from enforcing an EULA to do ths same thing.

> It's not the same thing, by far. EULA = "end user license agreement";
> while "data protection law" is... law. Obviously, licenses (contracts)
> must not be unlawful.

An EULA itself is not law, but neither would someone's request to be removed
from such a list be itself a law. EULA's operate under law, and so would a
request for data confidentiality. This difference is no difference. Both are
attempts to invoke a law other than copyright to restrict rights guaranteed
by the GPL. You may not use any law or provision to restrict another
person's GPL rights. That's what the GPL says, and it means it.

If a law, any law, permits you to impose restrictions on something the GPL
allows, then you give up the right to use that law in exchange for the
license the GPL grants. This obviously applies to your copyright in
derivative works. But it would also apply to any attempt to use any law to
encumber GPL rights.

As the GPL states, the license grants you permission to copy, distribute,
and/or modify the covered work. This is against any rights the authors might
have to prevent you from doing so.

> PS: You may use a GPL'd program any way you want --- although not for
> unlawful purposes. But that's not a matter between you and the
> copyright holder, it's between you and the law.

Precisely. And others who wish to exercise rights under the GPL forfeit any
legal mechanism (whether copyright, DMCA, contract, data privacy laws, or
whatever theory) to impose "further restrictions" on those who wish to
similarly use GPL works.

Copyright is the carrot the GPL uses to get you agree to the stick. The
stick is no "further restrictions" of any kind, imposed by any law.
Obviously, you aren't responsible for an operation of law over which you
have no control. But you cannot invoke copyright -- or any other law -- to
restrict someone else's exercise of rights granter by the GPL. You get
copyright, but you give up it all. No "further restrictions", period.

> PPS: SCM metadata are not part of the program. The DCoO states that
> the personal data submitted along with the contribution may be
> redistributed "consistent... with the open source license(s) involved",
> but it isn't discussed whether other terms of the licenses, notably
> those on modification and derivatives, apply to the data supplied for
> the certificate of origin.

When you submit a unit to a GPL project, you place that unit under the GPL.
That is what the DCoO is trying to say. There cannot be some things that
some parts of the GPL apply to and some don't. There is no "sort of GPL,
sort of not" that applies to some parts of some submissions. If something is
part of or all of a submission made under the GPL, then all of the GPL
applies to it.

DS


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alan at lxorguk

Jul 30, 2008, 3:32 PM

Post #94 of 98 (257 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

> Precisely. And others who wish to exercise rights under the GPL forfeit any
> legal mechanism (whether copyright, DMCA, contract, data privacy laws, or
> whatever theory) to impose "further restrictions" on those who wish to
> similarly use GPL works.

I don't know where you get that paticular idea from. Try sending GPL code
from the USA to Cuba. Seems the US government is using GPL code but
imposing further restrictions...

> have no control. But you cannot invoke copyright -- or any other law -- to
> restrict someone else's exercise of rights granter by the GPL. You get
> copyright, but you give up it all. No "further restrictions", period.

Some rights in laws are absolute. I cannot "give up" my right to be
identified as the author of a work I create in many countries. Its an
absolute.

> When you submit a unit to a GPL project, you place that unit under the GPL.
> That is what the DCoO is trying to say. There cannot be some things that
> some parts of the GPL apply to and some don't. There is no "sort of GPL,
> sort of not" that applies to some parts of some submissions. If something is
> part of or all of a submission made under the GPL, then all of the GPL
> applies to it.

The metadata licensing isn't clear in my view.

I think what you are more likely to get sensible results with is arguing
estoppel ? That was always the intent of that DCO wording. To ensure that
rights or otherwise you couldn't turn around and say "hey you published
my name and I didn't expect that implied by my actions".

However publishing a name and performing data processing on personal data
databases for other purposes is not the same thing at least in some
jurisdictions. In the EU you collect data "for a purpose".

Alan
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davids at webmaster

Jul 30, 2008, 4:33 PM

Post #95 of 98 (254 views)
Permalink
RE: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

> > Precisely. And others who wish to exercise rights under the GPL
> > forfeit any
> > legal mechanism (whether copyright, DMCA, contract, data
> > privacy laws, or
> > whatever theory) to impose "further restrictions" on those who wish to
> > similarly use GPL works.

> I don't know where you get that paticular idea from. Try sending GPL code
> from the USA to Cuba. Seems the US government is using GPL code but
> imposing further restrictions...

I'm not sure how you think this is relevent. I could go to the effort of
explaining in detail why it's irrelevent, but I can't imagine you intended
this comment as a genuine response in good faith.

For one thing, even if this was a violation of the GPL, there would be no
recourse. The only conceivable recourse would be a suit by an author for
copyright infringement. The government has sovereign immunity against such a
claim. The government is immune because it has sovereign immunity. Jon is
immune because the GPL grants him the right he is exercising. (Of course, it
can't make him immune from any laws he violates, but my argument is that
because he has consent he isn't violating any laws.)

> > have no control. But you cannot invoke copyright -- or any
> > other law -- to
> > restrict someone else's exercise of rights granter by the GPL. You get
> > copyright, but you give up it all. No "further restrictions", period.

> Some rights in laws are absolute. I cannot "give up" my right to be
> identified as the author of a work I create in many countries. Its an
> absolute.

Yes, but you can give up your right to pursue that right. And certainly some
terms of the GPL might be unenforceable in some jurisdictions. But the GPL
says Jon can do what he's doing, and it means what he says. As I said, I
don't know the data privacy laws in your jurisdiction, but I do know the GPL
made you give up your right to use them to impose restrictions on Jon's
imposition of his GPL rights.

You may or may not be able to stop some operation of law from happening. You
are not responsible for things outside your control. And some jurisdictions
may find some GPL terms unconscionable when used in this way.

> > When you submit a unit to a GPL project, you place that unit
> > under the GPL.
> > That is what the DCoO is trying to say. There cannot be some things that
> > some parts of the GPL apply to and some don't. There is no "sort of GPL,
> > sort of not" that applies to some parts of some submissions. If
> > something is
> > part of or all of a submission made under the GPL, then all of the GPL
> > applies to it.

> The metadata licensing isn't clear in my view.

Perhaps you can invent some other meaning it might have and then claim it's
unclear because it can mean that. But I don't think it matters. The GPL is
really what matters here, at least in my opinion. The GPL is clearly all of
apiece -- it either applies to something or it doesn't. And if you want to
argue that people must parse GPL submissions to figure out what's really
covered by the GPL and what's not, you can certainly argue that. I find that
argument fairly unconvincing.

> I think what you are more likely to get sensible results with is arguing
> estoppel ? That was always the intent of that DCO wording. To ensure that
> rights or otherwise you couldn't turn around and say "hey you published
> my name and I didn't expect that implied by my actions".

> However publishing a name and performing data processing on personal data
> databases for other purposes is not the same thing at least in some
> jurisdictions. In the EU you collect data "for a purpose".

GPL submissions are for the purposes specified in the GPL -- so that other
people may freely redistribute, copy, and modify them. You forfeit the right
to claim you made GPL submissions "for a purpose" as the GPL specifically
requires you to consent to their use for any purpose (save those the GPL
itself prohibits, of course).

DS


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kyle at moffetthome

Jul 30, 2008, 9:20 PM

Post #96 of 98 (245 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

STOP!!! This is seriously just getting silly...

If people *really* care about the privacy of information they placed
in publicly accessible databases via agreement with the DCO, then
there is a workaround:

Instead of a "mailmap" file, use a "mailhash" file like this:

[...lines...]
4db83f457ca750b3ed0bb7db2375cfd41846fb43 Kyle Moffett <kyle [at] moffetthome>
[...more lines...]


That SHA1 checksum is of the name-and-email you are mapping *from* and
the value on the right is the string to replace it with. For all the
people who don't like their emails being displayed when somebody looks
at logs, you can just get your entries in that file changed to
"anonymous". Then the people who want useful statistics will ignore
your commits and people who want to look at logs will just use the
newly-added --no-mailhash option to see the
"<jranodmuser [at] my-typod-domian>" that you happened to put in the
Signed-off-by.

Alternatively people could realize it's not worth it and just go write
real code or something.

PS. Just to show how easy it was, I converted the mailmap file that
was sent out into the above mailhash file with a perl one-liner
(WARNING: probably linewrapped):

perl -MDigest::SHA1=sha1_hex -n -e 'chomp; s/\s+/ /g; s/^ //; s/ $//;
print sha1_hex($_)." $_\n";' <mailmap >mailhash

Once you have the mailhash file, to convert from a "Name <email>" to
the actual desired representation you can run:

value="Name <email>"
sha1="$(echo -n "${value}" | sha1sum - | awk '{print $1}')"
line="$(sed -ne "/^${sha1} /{ s/^${sha1} //; p }" mailhash | head -n 1)"

Cheers,
Kyle Moffett
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stefanr at s5r6

Jul 31, 2008, 12:01 AM

Post #97 of 98 (252 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

David Schwartz wrote:
> because he has consent

Not. See below. Also remember that there are sometimes tags added to
the changelogs without having ensured that the respective person agrees
to this addition.

> if you want to
> argue that people must parse GPL submissions to figure out what's really
> covered by the GPL and what's not, you can certainly argue that.

The metadata (authorship, committership, changelog including sign-off
tags...) are not part of the submitted program source code.

The fact that I agreed to have aspects of my participation in the open
source project documented in the SCM does not imply an agreement that
these data may be copied into databases which serve other purposes.
--
Stefan Richter
-=====-==--- -=== =====
http://arcgraph.de/sr/
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w at 1wt

Jul 31, 2008, 1:59 PM

Post #98 of 98 (248 views)
Permalink
Re: 463 kernel developers missing! [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 11:32:29PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> However publishing a name and performing data processing on personal data
> databases for other purposes is not the same thing at least in some
> jurisdictions. In the EU you collect data "for a purpose".

And in some countries (at least France) you need to declare the existence
of a list you constitute from personal data (names, addresses, etc...)
and the persons referenced in your list are always granted a right to
be removed upon a simple request. This right is scrupulously respected,
and I can say that I've successfully used it many times to be removed
from advertisers' lists.

Anyway, I don't care much about Jon's list right now.

Willy

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