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GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19]

 

 

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vonbrand at inf

Dec 19, 2006, 5:09 AM

Post #176 of 214 (5187 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

Sanjoy Mahajan <sanjoy [at] mrao> wrote:
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > That said, I think they are still pushing the "you don't have any
> > rights unless we give you additional rights explicitly" angle a bit
> > too hard.
>
> From section 2 (GPLv3, draft 2):
>
> This License acknowledges your rights of "fair use" or other
> equivalent, as provided by copyright law.
>
> By choosing 'acknowledges' as the verb, the licensee says explicitly
> that fair-use rights are already yours, not that they are being given
> to you.

Pure noise, a license can't take them away in any case.

[.That is my pet pevee with GPL: It has a bit of legally binding text, and
lots of "explanation" and "philosophy" that don't add anything but
confusion. A clear-cut license plus an explanation/comment would have been
better. IMHO, IANAL. HAND.]
--
Dr. Horst H. von Brand User #22616 counter.li.org
Departamento de Informatica Fono: +56 32 2654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria +56 32 2654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile Fax: +56 32 2797513
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diegocg at gmail

Dec 19, 2006, 5:56 AM

Post #177 of 214 (5167 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

El Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:57:45 +1100, Marek Wawrzyczny <marekw1977 [at] yahoo> escribió:

> I had another, probably crazy idea. Would it be possible to utilize the
> current vendor/device PCI ID database to create Linux friendliness matrix
> site?

I've a script (attached) that looks into /lib/modules/`uname -r`/modules.pcimap,
looks up the IDs in the pci id database and print the real name. At least it shows
it's possible to know what devices are supported ...
Attachments: list-kernel-hardware.py (2.22 KB)


Markus.Elfring at web

Dec 19, 2006, 7:12 AM

Post #178 of 214 (5180 views)
Permalink
Re: free module selection [In reply to]

> Btw, I really think this is shortsighted.
>
> It will only result in _exactly_ the crap we were just trying to avoid,
> namely stupid "shell game" drivers that don't actually help anything at
> all, and move code into user space instead.

I would like to contribute some more viewpoints to this hot discussion.

Greg Kroah-Hartman revoked a bit of his code suggestion to take time for second
thoughts on the topic.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/475890


> So go get it merged in the Ubuntu, (Open)SuSE and RHEL and Fedora trees
> first. This is not something where we use my tree as a way to get it to
> other trees. This is something where the push had better come from the
> other direction.

I hope that people from such distributions will not create too much pressure to
"standardise" in licence limitations.

I imagine that there is the important matter of free choice and corresponding
fair use. Software techniques can help to choose between available alternatives
and possibilities.

1. How much can (kernel) modules be filtered for specific needs like it is
performed by class loaders for the Java programming languagge?
Are any interceptors internally involved that might throw exceptions to
forward constraints handling to special signal handlers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain-of-responsibility_pattern

2. Greg's design approach seems to be a nice option for testing purposes.
http://www.kroah.com/log/2006/12/13#uio

Are there any similarities with microkernels?
In which "space" would you like to run your device drivers?

3. All interested parties can develop a Linux distribution for the specific
needs of the various users and customers. It may be a fun project as a hobby or
it would be something for production applications like IPCop or SELinux. They
can also distinguish the acceptable licences on their own. How much do they
really want a limited selection that will be enforced by tools for the discussed
use case?
http://distrowatch.com/

Regards,
Markus

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dlang at digitalinsight

Dec 19, 2006, 8:39 AM

Post #179 of 214 (5179 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, D. Hazelton wrote:

> This doesn't negate any problems with people making Blob drivers, because, as
> you pointed out, under the same laws they aren't a derivative work, which
> means that that clause of the license doesn't apply. Now if the GPL contained
> a clause specifically defining what it considered a derivative work things
> would be different.

incorrect, the GPL (or any other license) cannot define what is a derived work,
the law does that. they could have a clause in them that said that something
that is a derived work under the law is not considered a derived work by the
author (implicitly giving unrestricted permission to that something), but you
cannot define something that the law doesn't consider a derived work to be one
in the license.

David Lang

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gene.heskett at verizon

Dec 19, 2006, 8:46 AM

Post #180 of 214 (5157 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

On Tuesday 19 December 2006 08:56, Diego Calleja wrote:
>El Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:57:45 +1100, Marek Wawrzyczny
<marekw1977 [at] yahoo> escribió:
>> I had another, probably crazy idea. Would it be possible to utilize
>> the current vendor/device PCI ID database to create Linux friendliness
>> matrix site?
>
>I've a script (attached) that looks into /lib/modules/`uname
> -r`/modules.pcimap, looks up the IDs in the pci id database and print
> the real name. At least it shows it's possible to know what devices are
> supported ...

FWIW:
[root [at] coyot src]# python list-kernel-hardware.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "list-kernel-hardware.py", line 70, in ?
ret = pciids_to_names(data)
File "list-kernel-hardware.py", line 11, in pciids_to_names
pciids = open('/usr/share/misc/pci.ids', 'r')
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/share/misc/pci.ids'

That file apparently doesn't exist on an FC6 i686 system

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
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sepreece at gmail

Dec 19, 2006, 8:55 AM

Post #181 of 214 (5141 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On 12/18/06, David Schwartz <davids [at] webmaster> wrote:
>
>
> > First sale has nothing to do with this. First sale applies to the
> > redistribution or resale of copies you have purchased, not with the
> > right to make additional copies.
>
> First sale is exactly what this is about. Nobody needs to make "additional
> copies" of the Linux kernel because I can download a thousand of them from a
> computer operated by the guy in the office down the hall from me.
---

This is an interesting argument that was new to me. However, it is not
clear at all that First Sale applies to intangible copies. And it's
not clear that there is a sale involved, legally. Again, IANAL, but I
think this is seriously untested ground.

scott
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notting at redhat

Dec 19, 2006, 9:11 AM

Post #182 of 214 (5148 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

Gene Heskett (gene.heskett [at] verizon) said:
> FWIW:
> [root [at] coyot src]# python list-kernel-hardware.py
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "list-kernel-hardware.py", line 70, in ?
> ret = pciids_to_names(data)
> File "list-kernel-hardware.py", line 11, in pciids_to_names
> pciids = open('/usr/share/misc/pci.ids', 'r')
> IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/share/misc/pci.ids'
>
> That file apparently doesn't exist on an FC6 i686 system

s/misc/hwdata/ for FC and derivatives.

Bill
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diegocg at gmail

Dec 19, 2006, 9:13 AM

Post #183 of 214 (5178 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

El Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:46:30 -0500, Gene Heskett <gene.heskett [at] verizon> escribió:

> IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/share/misc/pci.ids'
>
> That file apparently doesn't exist on an FC6 i686 system

Indeed, I forgot to document that. Ubuntu has it there (package pciutils), and
update-pciids updates the file from http://pciids.sourceforge.net/pci.ids. So you
can download that file and change the path in the script.

Anyway, you can find the output at http://www.terra.es/personal/diegocg/list.txt
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gene.heskett at verizon

Dec 19, 2006, 9:24 AM

Post #184 of 214 (5167 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

On Tuesday 19 December 2006 12:11, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>Gene Heskett (gene.heskett [at] verizon) said:
>> FWIW:
>> [root [at] coyot src]# python list-kernel-hardware.py
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>> File "list-kernel-hardware.py", line 70, in ?
>> ret = pciids_to_names(data)
>> File "list-kernel-hardware.py", line 11, in pciids_to_names
>> pciids = open('/usr/share/misc/pci.ids', 'r')
>> IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
>> '/usr/share/misc/pci.ids'
>>
>> That file apparently doesn't exist on an FC6 i686 system
>
>s/misc/hwdata/ for FC and derivatives.
>
>Bill

Ah, thanks. Verbose isn't it?

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
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sanjoy at mrao

Dec 19, 2006, 9:27 AM

Post #185 of 214 (5155 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

>> [GPL acknowledging fair-use rights]

> Pure noise, a license can't take them away in any case.

A bare license probably cannot take them away, since you haven't
agreed to anything. But (1) that may not be true in all legal
systems, and (2) a contract-based license can take it away (e.g. an
NDA). So the GPL's clarification is worthwhile. For the same reason,
I'm guessing, the Creative Commons licenses have (also in section 2,
at least in v2.5):

2. Fair Use Rights. Nothing in this license is intended to reduce,
limit, or restrict any rights arising from fair use, first sale or
other limitations on the exclusive rights of the copyright owner
under copyright law or other applicable laws.

-Sanjoy

`Never underestimate the evil of which men of power are capable.'
--Bertrand Russell, _War Crimes in Vietnam_, chapter 1.
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aoliva at redhat

Dec 19, 2006, 4:06 PM

Post #186 of 214 (5182 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On Dec 18, 2006, "David Schwartz" <davids [at] webmaster> wrote:

> No automated, mechanical process can create a derivative work of software.
> (With a few exceptions not relevant here.)

Can you explain what mechanisms are involved in copyright monopolies
over object code, then?
(there's a hint at http://www.fsfla.org/?q=en/node/128#1 )

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
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aoliva at redhat

Dec 19, 2006, 4:09 PM

Post #187 of 214 (5157 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On Dec 18, 2006, "David Schwartz" <davids [at] webmaster> wrote:

> I don't see why you can't distribute a single DVD that combines the contents
> of the two you bought, so long as you destroy the originals.

Because, for example, per Brazilian law since 1998, fair use only
grants you the right to copy small portions of copyrighted works for
personal use. http://www.petitiononline.com/netlivre

Remember that the GPL is not only about US copyright law or US
courts.

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
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aoliva at redhat

Dec 19, 2006, 4:20 PM

Post #188 of 214 (5151 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On Dec 18, 2006, "David Schwartz" <davids [at] webmaster> wrote:

> It makes no difference whether the "mere aggregation" paragraph kicks in
> because the "mere aggregation" paragraph is *explaining* the *law*. What
> matters is what the law actually *says*.

You mean "mere aggregation" is defined in copyright law? I don't
think so, otherwise the term 'aggregate' probably wouldn't have
been used in GPLv3.

AFAIK it's perfectly legitimate (even if immoral) for a copyright
license to prohibit the distribution of the software governed by the
license with anything else the author establishes. E.g., some Java
virtual machine's license used to establish that you couldn't ship it
along with other implementations of Java that didn't pass some
comformance test.

Now, the GPL doesn't do this. It doesn't say you can't distribute
GPLed software along with any other software. It only says that, when
you distribute together works that don't constitute mere aggregation
(providing its own definition of mere aggregation), then the whole
must be licensed under the GPL.

> The GPL could say that if you ever see the source code to a GPL'd work,
> every work you ever write must be placed under the GPL. But that wouldn't
> make it true, because that would be a requirement outside the GPL's scope.

It is indeed possible that this would fall outside the scope of
copyright law in the US, and it would not be morally acceptable for
the GPL to impose such a condition. But then, since nobody can be
forced to see the source code of a GPLed work, or any work for that
matter, acceptance is voluntary, and one shouldn't enter an agreement
one's not willing to abide by.

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
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aoliva at redhat

Dec 19, 2006, 5:02 PM

Post #189 of 214 (5176 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On Dec 19, 2006, "D. Hazelton" <dhazelton [at] enter> wrote:

> However I have a feeling that the lawyers in the employ of the
> companies that ship BLOB drivers say that all they need to do to
> comply with the GPL is to ship the glue-code in source form.

> And I have to admit that this does seem to comply with the GPL - to the
> letter, if not the spirit.

I don't see that it does comply even with the letter. Consider this:

These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If
identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program,
and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in
themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those
sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you
distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work
based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the
terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend
to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of
who wrote it.

The work, in this case, is the GPLed glue code, in source form, and
the binary blob, without sources. See that, even though the binary
blob is an independent and separate work in itself, and so it can
indeed be distributed separaly under a different license, when it's
distributed as part of a whole, then the whole must be on the terms of
the GPL.

So the question becomes whether the copyright holder of the glue code
bound by these GPL terms.

(a) If the glue code can be shown to be a derived work from Linux,
even in source form, then the copyright holder *is* bound by these
terms, and thus the whole could only be distributed under the GPL, so
including the binary blob would be in violation of the license.

(b) Now, if the glue code is *not* a derived work from Linux, then the
copyright holder is entitled to use whatever terms she likes. It
could be any license whatsoever, that permits the distribution of the
whole or of the parts with whatever constraints copyright law
permitted. Why would they choose the GPL in this case, then?


Let's assume they're not intentionally violating the GPL, but rather
that they believe they're entitled to do what they're doing, i.e.,
that they believe (a) their glue code is not a derived work from
Linux.

In this case, they *can* distribute the glue source code under the GPL
along with their binary blob. But can anyone else?

Methinks anyone else would be entitled to pass the same whole along
under the GPL, per section 1, but wouldn't be entitled to distribute
modified versions, because this would require the derived work to be
licensed under the GPL, and nobody else is able to provide the source
code to the binary blob.

And then, who'd be entitled to complain? Only the copyright holder of
the glue code and the binary blob.

Would you like to be on the wrong end of a copyright infringement
lawsuit by one of these binary blob distributors for distributing a
patched version of their glue code + binary blob? More to the point,
do you think they would actually bring suit, just to make it clear
that the whole point is for them to keep a monopoly on the rights to
modify and then distribute the combined work, in spite of using the
GPL for (part of) the work?


It gets trickier for binaries, since they are quite possibly derived
works from the kernel, licensed under the GPL. If they are, they
can't be distributed at all, not even by the copyright holder of the
glue code + binary blob. If they aren't, then the copyright holder
can distribute them, but nobody else can because that would be a
violation of the GPL, as in the discussion above. So, the copyright
holder would be keeping a monopoly on the rights to distribute
binaries, and anyone else could be sued by them.


Sure enough, one might think of praising them for distributing the
glue code under the GPL. Then others could take this glue code and
use it for something else that is useful, right?

Well... Not quite. For one, even if enabling others to distribute
glue code + binary blobs were a good thing, using somebody else's glue
code means you're bound by the GPL requirements, so you can't ship the
combination of the glue code with your binary blob.

And then, if you intend to use the glue code to plug in some other
code that is GPL-compatible in the kernel, perhaps you'd be better off
not using the glue code at all, but rather modifying the
GPL-compatible code to fit.

So, even if condoning binary blobs were morally acceptable, we still
wouldn't be gaining anything from this relationship, we'd only be
enabling vendors to sell us their undocumented hardware while denying
us our freedoms.

Why should we do this?

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
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aoliva at redhat

Dec 19, 2006, 5:06 PM

Post #190 of 214 (5157 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On Dec 19, 2006, "Horst H. von Brand" <vonbrand [at] inf> wrote:

> Sanjoy Mahajan <sanjoy [at] mrao> wrote:

>> This License acknowledges your rights of "fair use" or other
>> equivalent, as provided by copyright law.

>> By choosing 'acknowledges' as the verb, the licensee says explicitly
>> that fair-use rights are already yours, not that they are being given
>> to you.

> Pure noise, a license can't take them away in any case.

Yeah, that's merely informative, indeed. Point is to ensure people
know their rights, while at the same time avoiding giving impressions
such the one Linus somehow got.

> [.That is my pet pevee with GPL: It has a bit of legally binding text, and
> lots of "explanation" and "philosophy" that don't add anything but
> confusion. A clear-cut license plus an explanation/comment would have been
> better. IMHO, IANAL. HAND.]

This bit would probably fit better in the spirit (preamble) than in
the letter. That's why I filed the comment about it in the preamble.

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
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rostedt at goodmis

Dec 19, 2006, 8:27 PM

Post #191 of 214 (5163 views)
Permalink
RE: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

On Sun, 2006-12-17 at 11:11 +0100, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, David Schwartz wrote:

> > That makes it clear that it's not about giving us the fruits of years of
> > your own work but that it's about enabling us to do our own work. (I would
> > have no objection to also requiring them to provide a minimal open-source
> > driver. I'm not trying to work out the exact terms here, just get the idea
> > out.)
>
> Since `works with' may sound a bit too vague, something like
> `LinuxFriendly(tm)', with a happy penguin logo?
>

I've bought a couple of products lately that had the happy penguin logo
on it. Just to find out that they only applied a bare minimum
functionality of the device for Linux. If you want more, you need to
plug it into a Windows box.

Funny, if you own a Mac, it had the same problem. It had a little more
functionality than the Linux port, but still far from what they give for
Windows.

I like the Open Hardware thing that Paolo mentioned.

-- Steve

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Valdis.Kletnieks at vt

Dec 19, 2006, 9:11 PM

Post #192 of 214 (5155 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:57:45 +1100, Marek Wawrzyczny said:
> On Sunday 17 December 2006 21:11, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> > Since `works with' may sound a bit too vague, something like
> > `LinuxFriendly(tm)', with a happy penguin logo?
>
> It would be really cool to see penguin logos on hardware :)

The little Microsoft flag sticker that was on my Dell Latitude got
replaced with a sticker that has a Tux and 'linux inside' on it. :)

> I had another, probably crazy idea. Would it be possible to utilize the
> current vendor/device PCI ID database to create Linux friendliness matrix
> site?
>
> And if you let yourself get carried away, you can also imagine a little
> multi-platform utility. It would run on a test system collecting PCI IDs
> before submitting them to the site to get the system's overall Linux
> friendliness rating.

This is a can of worms, and then some. For instance, let's consider this
Latitude. *THIS* one has an NVidia Quadro NVS 110M in it. However, that's
not the default graphics card on a Latitude D820. So what number do you
put in? Do you use:

a) the *default* graphics card
b) the one *I* have with the open-source driver
c) the same one, but with the NVidia binary driver?

(Remember that "users" have different criteria than "developers" - most
users would consider this entire thread "intellectual wanking", especially
since the patch that spawned it got withdrawn. And 'Frames Per Second'
trumps that stupid little 'P' in the oops message. Failure to understand
this mindset guarantees that your computation of a "friendliness rating"
is yet more intellectual wanking... ;)

Similar issues are involved with the wireless card - the Intel 3945 I
have isn't the default. Repeat for several different disk options, and
at least 4 or 5 different CD/ROM/DVD options. Add in the fact that Dell
often changes suppliers for disk and CD/DVD drives, and you have a nightmare
coming...

And then there's stuff on this machine that are *not* options, but don't
matter to me. I see an 'O2 Micro' Firewire in the 'lspci' output. I have
no idea how well it works. I don't care what it contributes to the score.
On the other hand, somebody who uses external Firewire disk enclosures may
be *very* concerned about it, but not care in the slightest about the wireless
card.

Bonus points for figuring out what to do with systems that have some chip
that's a supported XYZ driver, but wired up behind a squirrely bridge with
some totally bizarre IRQ allocation, so you end up with something that's
visible on lspci but not actually *usable* in any real sense of the term...

> Something like that could really help end users to select the right system and
> would reward those who do the right thing.

"You are trapped in a maze of twisty little configurations, all different..."


davids at webmaster

Dec 20, 2006, 11:14 AM

Post #193 of 214 (5154 views)
Permalink
RE: GPL only modules [In reply to]

Note: Combined responses.

> I'd agree that "ar", like "mkisofs", doesn't create a derived work, but I
> think that "objcopy" does create a derived work, and "ld" does too, by
> virtue of modifying the objects it takes to resolve symbols. Now, you
> could distribute to somebody an ar archive of your program, and the
> recipient (given fair use rights to the copy of the program they
> received)
> could do "gcc program.a -o program" to link it. But I don't think you
> automatically get the right (under the "mere aggregation" permission) to
> distribute the result of relocating the symbols of gnutls around those of
> your program and vice versa, along with modifying the references to
> external symbols from each of these to point to specific locations.

The question is, as a matter of copyright law, what right do you need to
distribute the aggregate? As I understand the law, the answer is that you
need the right to distribute each of the individual works in the aggregate.
Fortunately, you can trivially get the right to distribute any GPL'd work
under first sale. (Simply download as many copies as you plan to
distribute.)

To argue otherwise would be to argue that you can't buy a DVD and a Hallmark
card and ship the two of them together to your mother.

--

>This is an interesting argument that was new to me. However, it is not
>clear at all that First Sale applies to intangible copies. And it's
>not clear that there is a sale involved, legally. Again, IANAL, but I
>think this is seriously untested ground.

First sale has nothing do with a sale. 17 USC 109(a) says, "Notwithstanding
the provisions of section 106 (3), the owner of a particular copy or
phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such
owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or
otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord."

I think it's well settled law that everyone who lawfully acquires a copy of
a copyrighted work has the right to its normal expected use and may transfer
that right along with their copy to another without needing any special
permission from the copyright holder. Exceptions would include cases where
there was specific assent to a license, such as shrink-wrap, click-through,
or EULA.

I'm not really qualified to respond to the argument that first sale doesn't
apply to an intangible copy. As the law is written, it simply refers to the
owner of a "a particular copy". Sometimes "a copy" only means tangible
copies and sometimes it simply means the result of copying. It seems bizarre
to me, however, to argue that if I lawfully download a program, I need
special permission from the copyright holder to put it on CD but not a hard
drive. What is the *legal* difference? And if I put it no a hard drive, I
can't sell it? Seems crazy to me.

--

>AFAIK it's perfectly legitimate (even if immoral) for a copyright
>license to prohibit the distribution of the software governed by the
>license with anything else the author establishes. E.g., some Java
>virtual machine's license used to establish that you couldn't ship it
>along with other implementations of Java that didn't pass some
>comformance test.

Nobody ever said a copyright holder couldn't restrict the distribution of
his software when such distribution is not authorized by things like fair
use, first sale, or other things. Of course a copyright holder can set any
rules he want for those distributions not authorized by law.

However, those restrictions do not affect those who did not agree to them.
For example, if I buy such a JVM and don't agree to the license (assuming I
don't have to agree to the license to lawfully acquire the JVM), I can give
it to a friend along with any other software I want.

--

>A bare license probably cannot take them away, since you haven't
>agreed to anything. But (1) that may not be true in all legal
>systems, and (2) a contract-based license can take it away (e.g. an
>NDA). So the GPL's clarification is worthwhile. For the same reason,
>I'm guessing, the Creative Commons licenses have (also in section 2,
>at least in v2.5):

The clarification serves another important purpose as well. If some
provision is ambiguous and admits of two readins, one which conflicts with
fair use and would not be enforceable and one which doesn't that is, these
disclaimers make clear that the latter interpretation is the one that should
be chosen. So they may actually *increase* the scope of the license.

DS


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davids at webmaster

Dec 20, 2006, 11:29 AM

Post #194 of 214 (5172 views)
Permalink
RE: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

> This is a can of worms, and then some. For instance, let's consider this
> Latitude. *THIS* one has an NVidia Quadro NVS 110M in it.
> However, that's
> not the default graphics card on a Latitude D820. So what number do you
> put in? Do you use:

> a) the *default* graphics card
> b) the one *I* have with the open-source driver
> c) the same one, but with the NVidia binary driver?


> Similar issues are involved with the wireless card - the Intel 3945 I
> have isn't the default. Repeat for several different disk options, and
> at least 4 or 5 different CD/ROM/DVD options. Add in the fact that Dell
> often changes suppliers for disk and CD/DVD drives, and you have
> a nightmare
> coming...

> And then there's stuff on this machine that are *not* options, but don't
> matter to me. I see an 'O2 Micro' Firewire in the 'lspci' output. I have
> no idea how well it works. I don't care what it contributes to the score.
> On the other hand, somebody who uses external Firewire disk enclosures may
> be *very* concerned about it, but not care in the slightest about
> the wireless
> card.
>
> Bonus points for figuring out what to do with systems that have some chip
> that's a supported XYZ driver, but wired up behind a squirrely bridge with
> some totally bizarre IRQ allocation, so you end up with something that's
> visible on lspci but not actually *usable* in any real sense of
> the term...

Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Remember, the goal is to
allow consumers to know whether or not their system's hardware
specifications are available. It's not about driver availability -- if the
hardware specifications are available and a driver is not, that's not the
hardware manufacturer's fault.

Linux is about *allowing* people to do things.

DS


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Valdis.Kletnieks at vt

Dec 20, 2006, 12:52 PM

Post #195 of 214 (5171 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:29:00 PST, David Schwartz said:

> Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Remember, the goal is to
> allow consumers to know whether or not their system's hardware
> specifications are available. It's not about driver availability -- if the
> hardware specifications are available and a driver is not, that's not the
> hardware manufacturer's fault.

My point was "their system's hardware specifications" is, for some popular
vendors, a *very* fuzzy notion. You can't (for instance) say "specs are
available for a Dell Latitude D820" - there are configurations that specs are
available for, and configs that aren't. My D820 has an NVidia card in it - we
know the answer there. Do you give a different answer for a D820 that has the
Intel i950 graphics chipset instead?

Even more annoying, Dell often *changes* the vendor - the line item for the DVD
drive says "8X DVD+/-RW" (other choices include 24X CD-ROM and 24X CD-RW/DVD).
Mine showed up with a Philips SDVD8820 - but it's possible that some other D820
will get some other vendor's DVD (I've seen 2 C820's ordered at the same time,
they showed up with 2 different vendor's "24X CD-RW/DVD"). It's possible that
some poor guy is going to get a D820 that has a DVD that we have a known
buggy driver for - what do we tell *them*?

It's *easy* to do a "semi-good" that tells you if there's drivers for the
hardware config you're running the program on. But there's 2 problems:

a) You probably already know the answer
b) By the time you can run the program, it's often too late....

So given those 2 points, what actual value-added info does this *give*, over
and above 'lspci' and friends? I suppose maybe for a install CD, it gives
a quick way to cleanly abort the install with a "Don't bother continuing
unless it's OK that your graphics/wireless/whatever won't work". On the
other hand, the installer should have a grasp on this *already*....

Perfect may be the enemy of the good, but the good is also the enemy of
stuff claiming to be good but misses on an important design goal...


alan at clueserver

Dec 20, 2006, 1:10 PM

Post #196 of 214 (5154 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Valdis.Kletnieks [at] vt wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:29:00 PST, David Schwartz said:
>
>> Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Remember, the goal is to
>> allow consumers to know whether or not their system's hardware
>> specifications are available. It's not about driver availability -- if the
>> hardware specifications are available and a driver is not, that's not the
>> hardware manufacturer's fault.
>
> My point was "their system's hardware specifications" is, for some popular
> vendors, a *very* fuzzy notion. You can't (for instance) say "specs are
> available for a Dell Latitude D820" - there are configurations that specs are
> available for, and configs that aren't. My D820 has an NVidia card in it - we
> know the answer there. Do you give a different answer for a D820 that has the
> Intel i950 graphics chipset instead?
>
> Even more annoying, Dell often *changes* the vendor - the line item for the DVD
> drive says "8X DVD+/-RW" (other choices include 24X CD-ROM and 24X CD-RW/DVD).
> Mine showed up with a Philips SDVD8820 - but it's possible that some other D820
> will get some other vendor's DVD (I've seen 2 C820's ordered at the same time,
> they showed up with 2 different vendor's "24X CD-RW/DVD"). It's possible that
> some poor guy is going to get a D820 that has a DVD that we have a known
> buggy driver for - what do we tell *them*?
>
> It's *easy* to do a "semi-good" that tells you if there's drivers for the
> hardware config you're running the program on. But there's 2 problems:
>
> a) You probably already know the answer
> b) By the time you can run the program, it's often too late....
>
> So given those 2 points, what actual value-added info does this *give*, over
> and above 'lspci' and friends? I suppose maybe for a install CD, it gives
> a quick way to cleanly abort the install with a "Don't bother continuing
> unless it's OK that your graphics/wireless/whatever won't work". On the
> other hand, the installer should have a grasp on this *already*....
>
> Perfect may be the enemy of the good, but the good is also the enemy of
> stuff claiming to be good but misses on an important design goal...

Valid points, but they are almost more for the distribution than they are
for the kernel.

I have considered designing a routine for use in Annaconda or some other
installer that lists all the known hardware and how much of it will
actually work with that particular distro. I know some people will not
care, but many will. (Especially the people who ask "Will my machine work
with Linux".)

Many people do not know what they have in the way of hardware. They
bought a machine. What they were sold (or requested) and what they got
are usually two different things. They may know a few specifics, but they
are probably missing important details. (How many people know the model
of PCI chip in their machine? Or who made the IDE chipset? Or the
ethernet chipset on the motherboard?) For those of us that deal with
hardware every day, this is not as big of an issue as those who bought
something from Dell or HP and it arrived in a big box pre-assembled.

Is there some way to look at a kernel and determine what drivers are
"good" and those that are "less good"? (Other than ordering Alan Cox's
brain in a jar...) What needs to be known is the state of the driver for
kernel X where X maybe something current or woefully out of date.

Maybe instead of an EXPORT_GPL symbol we need a
EXPORT_THIS_DRIVER_IS_CRAP symbol.

--
Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas?
A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25
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sepreece at gmail

Dec 20, 2006, 3:08 PM

Post #197 of 214 (5174 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On 12/20/06, David Schwartz <davids [at] webmaster> wrote:

> > I'd agree that "ar", like "mkisofs", doesn't create a derived work, but I
> > think that "objcopy" does create a derived work, and "ld" does too, by
> > virtue of modifying the objects it takes to resolve symbols. ...
>
> The question is, as a matter of copyright law, what right do you need to
> distribute the aggregate? As I understand the law, the answer is that you
> need the right to distribute each of the individual works in the aggregate.
> Fortunately, you can trivially get the right to distribute any GPL'd work
> under first sale. (Simply download as many copies as you plan to
> distribute.)
>
> To argue otherwise would be to argue that you can't buy a DVD and a Hallmark
> card and ship the two of them together to your mother.
---

If the aggregate is not a derived work, then you only need the
separate permissions for the original works. If the aggregate is a
derived work, then you need permissions relative to the derived work,
not just the original work - essenitlally, permission to modify the
work. And, the permissions would all have to allow the specific form
of distribution and aggregation involved. [.Don't give me back the
example of breaking the DVD in half - "the work" is not the medium;
your purchase of a DVD does not give you the right to modify the movie
it carries and redistribute the modified version, even under first
sale.]

---
>
> >This is an interesting argument that was new to me. However, it is not
> >clear at all that First Sale applies to intangible copies. And it's
> >not clear that there is a sale involved, legally. Again, IANAL, but I
> >think this is seriously untested ground.
>
> First sale has nothing do with a sale. 17 USC 109(a) says, "Notwithstanding
> the provisions of section 106 (3), the owner of a particular copy or
> phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such
> owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or
> otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord."
---

While I generally agree with you that first sale can occur without an
actual sale, the GPL (and distribution by free download in general) is
an odd situation (the law wasn't designed for works that could be
freely copied) and I would not suggest anyone depend on a court to
interpret that clause the way you are.

---
> I'm not really qualified to respond to the argument that first sale doesn't
> apply to an intangible copy. As the law is written, it simply refers to the
> owner of a "a particular copy". Sometimes "a copy" only means tangible
> copies and sometimes it simply means the result of copying. It seems bizarre
> to me, however, to argue that if I lawfully download a program, I need
> special permission from the copyright holder to put it on CD but not a hard
> drive. What is the *legal* difference? And if I put it no a hard drive, I
> can't sell it? Seems crazy to me.
---

Nevertheless, the only decided cases I could find in the area went the
other way - saying that intangible copies did not exhaust the author's
distribution rights. Note that your example is misleading - you don't
need different permission to put it on a CD than to put it on a hard
drive, but you might not have permission to distribute it (depending
on the terms under which you received it). There is case law finding
that, in at least some cases, the author's rights in particular copies
(even tangible copies) was not exhausted.

---
>
> Nobody ever said a copyright holder couldn't restrict the distribution of
> his software when such distribution is not authorized by things like fair
> use, first sale, or other things. Of course a copyright holder can set any
> rules he want for those distributions not authorized by law.
>
> However, those restrictions do not affect those who did not agree to them.
> For example, if I buy such a JVM and don't agree to the license (assuming I
> don't have to agree to the license to lawfully acquire the JVM), I can give
> it to a friend along with any other software I want.
---

No, as with the language in the GPL, your right to distribute is
provided by the license you received with the JVM, so if you don't
accept it, you can't distribute. However, the first sale doctrine
provides a limited exception; if you got the JVM through an
unrestricted sale, then you would normally have the right to sell that
particular copy without any further license (though possibly not to
someone in a different part of the world).

scott
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davids at webmaster

Dec 20, 2006, 3:26 PM

Post #198 of 214 (5147 views)
Permalink
RE: GPL only modules [In reply to]

> > However, those restrictions do not affect those who did not
> > agree to them.
> > For example, if I buy such a JVM and don't agree to the license
> > (assuming I
> > don't have to agree to the license to lawfully acquire the
> > JVM), I can give
> > it to a friend along with any other software I want.

> No

Yes.

> as with the language in the GPL, your right to distribute is
> provided by the license you received with the JVM, so if you don't
> accept it, you can't distribute.

This is flat out self-contradiction. If my right is provided by the license,
then I can distribute. If I don't accept the license, then how is my right
to distribute provided by it?

The paragraph you are saying "No" to is completely correct and your response
is complete double-speak.

> However, the first sale doctrine
> provides a limited exception;

Exactly. So the idea that you can't distribute a work unless you agree to
its license is nonsense. With a license like the GPL, that is something that
is not a shrink-wrap, click-through, or EULA, the license does not apply to
anyone who does not agree to it. The GPL makes this totally clear in section
5.

If you don't accept the license, you simply don't get the additional rights
the license offers. You still have all the rights you originally had.

> if you got the JVM through an
> unrestricted sale, then you would normally have the right to sell that
> particular copy without any further license (though possibly not to
> someone in a different part of the world).

Your license to distribute is provided by the license if and only if you
agree to the license. Otherwise, it's as if the license doesn't exist. You
can get the right to distribute the work any other way that may be available
to you. First sale is just one example.

DS


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sepreece at gmail

Dec 20, 2006, 3:28 PM

Post #199 of 214 (5181 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [In reply to]

On 12/19/06, Alexandre Oliva <aoliva [at] redhat> wrote:
> On Dec 19, 2006, "D. Hazelton" <dhazelton [at] enter> wrote:
>
> > However I have a feeling that the lawyers in the employ of the
> > companies that ship BLOB drivers say that all they need to do to
> > comply with the GPL is to ship the glue-code in source form.
>
> > And I have to admit that this does seem to comply with the GPL - to the
> > letter, if not the spirit.
>
> I don't see that it does comply even with the letter. Consider this:
>
> These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If
> identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program,
> and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in
> themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those
> sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you
> distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work
> based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the
> terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend
> to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of
> who wrote it.
>
> The work, in this case, is the GPLed glue code, in source form, and
> the binary blob, without sources. See that, even though the binary
> blob is an independent and separate work in itself, and so it can
> indeed be distributed separaly under a different license, when it's
> distributed as part of a whole, then the whole must be on the terms of
> the GPL.
---

The question is what "the whole work" is. If the binary is not a
derived work, and is not prelinked with the work, then it seems likely
to be considered merely an aggregation, not requiring GPL licensing.
Note that there's some difficulty in the language, in that the GPL
uses "work based on the work" to mean something that it defines
specifically, while the Copyright Act defines "derived work" as "work
based on the work". THere is no equivalence there - The GPL's "work
based on the work" includes cases that do not fit the Act's
definition.

So, the GPL's requirement for licensing under the GPL clearly applies
to prelinked binaries, but it is not at all clear that it would apply
to a binary object, not derived from the kernel, shipped on the same
media. That is, the aggregation is NOT a modification of the original
work, it's just an aggregation (work of colective authorship).

---
> ...
> Let's assume they're not intentionally violating the GPL, but rather
> that they believe they're entitled to do what they're doing, i.e.,
> that they believe (a) their glue code is not a derived work from
> Linux.
>
> In this case, they *can* distribute the glue source code under the GPL
> along with their binary blob. But can anyone else?
>
> Methinks anyone else would be entitled to pass the same whole along
> under the GPL, per section 1, but wouldn't be entitled to distribute
> modified versions, because this would require the derived work to be
> licensed under the GPL, and nobody else is able to provide the source
> code to the binary blob.
---

I'm confused here. If the glue code is not a derived work, then they
don't need to use the GPL at all. If they DO ue the GPL, then (as you
note) if they didn't include the source code, nobody else could
redistribute it because nobody else would be able to meet the license
terms. I would expect that if they were going to GPL the glue code,
they would also provide the source for it.

---
>...
> Well... Not quite. For one, even if enabling others to distribute
> glue code + binary blobs were a good thing, using somebody else's glue
> code means you're bound by the GPL requirements, so you can't ship the
> combination of the glue code with your binary blob.
---

Only if you assume that using the glue code would make your blob a
derived work of the glue code. In many cases the point of the glue
code is to be an adapter between Linux and an existing interface. In
such a case, any binary blob using that interface would not be a
derived work of the glue code.

As before, though, if you linked the binary blob with the glue code
object, then the combined object probably would be a derived work and
have to conform to the GPL.

---
> ...
> So, even if condoning binary blobs were morally acceptable, we still
> wouldn't be gaining anything from this relationship, we'd only be
> enabling vendors to sell us their undocumented hardware while denying
> us our freedoms.
>
> Why should we do this?
---

To enable the use of the hardware in Linux systems? Most people would
prefer well-documented hardware with free drivers, but when that isn't
available, many people might still like to be able to use the
hardware. It's less than ideal, but so is having no way at all to use
the hardware.

scott
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marekw1977 at yahoo

Dec 21, 2006, 7:34 AM

Post #200 of 214 (5170 views)
Permalink
Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] [In reply to]

On Wednesday 20 December 2006 16:11, Valdis.Kletnieks [at] vt wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:57:45 +1100, Marek Wawrzyczny said:
> > On Sunday 17 December 2006 21:11, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> > And if you let yourself get carried away, you can also imagine a little
> > multi-platform utility. It would run on a test system collecting PCI IDs
> > before submitting them to the site to get the system's overall Linux
> > friendliness rating.
>
> This is a can of worms, and then some. For instance, let's consider this
> Latitude. *THIS* one has an NVidia Quadro NVS 110M in it. However, that's
> not the default graphics card on a Latitude D820. So what number do you
> put in? Do you use:

No, no, no... I was never proposing that. I was thinking of something more
along the lines of reporting back on open-source friendliness of
manufacturers of devices, and perhaps on the availability of open source
drivers for the devices. I am talking only about "detected" devices. The
database would never try and guess the vendor, model and variation of the
system.

> (Remember that "users" have different criteria than "developers" - most
> users would consider this entire thread "intellectual wanking", especially
> since the patch that spawned it got withdrawn. And 'Frames Per Second'
> trumps that stupid little 'P' in the oops message. Failure to understand
> this mindset guarantees that your computation of a "friendliness rating"
> is yet more intellectual wanking... ;)

I actually find that trying to obtain information about what hardware is/isn't
supported in Linux is actually quite difficult to obtain. The information
that's on the internet is either outdated or has not yet been written.
I was hoping to analyze the system's device information together with
driver/device information obtained from the kernel source itself to give
users a better (but not perhaps not as authoritative as I'd like to) picture
of what to expect.

> And then there's stuff on this machine that are *not* options, but don't
> matter to me. I see an 'O2 Micro' Firewire in the 'lspci' output. I have
> no idea how well it works. I don't care what it contributes to the score.
> On the other hand, somebody who uses external Firewire disk enclosures may
> be *very* concerned about it, but not care in the slightest about the
> wireless card.

Perhaps we just report on the individual devices then... forget the system
rating.

> Bonus points for figuring out what to do with systems that have some chip
> that's a supported XYZ driver, but wired up behind a squirrely bridge with
> some totally bizarre IRQ allocation, so you end up with something that's
> visible on lspci but not actually *usable* in any real sense of the term...

Hmmm... does this happen often? False results are definedly a show stopper.
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