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the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion

 

 

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cattelan at thebarn

Jul 25, 2006, 12:13 PM

Post #51 of 223 (10548 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Sun, 2006-07-23 at 01:20 -0600, Hans Reiser wrote:
> Jeff, I think that a large part of what is going on is that any patch
> that can be read in 15 minutes gets reviewed immediately, and any patch
> that is worked on for 5 years and then takes a week to read gets
> neglected. This is true even if line for line the 1 week to read patch
> is more valuable. What is more is that people know this is
> irrational, but aren't able to cure it in themselves. Even I have a
> problem of paying too much attention to endless 5 minute emails when I
> know I should instead, say, read the compression plugin from beginning
> to end.
>
> There is nothing about small patches that makes them better code. There
> is no reason we should favor them, if the developers are willing to work
> on something for 5 years to escape a local optimum, that is often the
> RIGHT thing to do.
>
> It is importand that we embrace our diversity, and be happy for the
> strength it gives us. Some of us are good at small patches that evolve,
> and some are good at escaping local optimums. We all have value, both
> trees and grass have their place in the world.
>
Which is summed up quite well by:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed

It seem to be a well know tendency for people to want to
be involved in some way, thus keeping to much of the development
cycle internal tends to generate friction.


-Russell Cattelan
cattelan [at] xfs

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biscani at pd

Jul 25, 2006, 12:20 PM

Post #52 of 223 (10570 views)
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Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Tuesday 25 July 2006 19:47, Hans Reiser wrote:
> Wow, I would never have guessed our market share was that high as 1/5th
> of ext3. I mean, you can't even get a distro which allows you to
> install onto reiser4 without hours of work so far as I know. I guess
> there are people who really do care about twice as fast.
>
> Hans
>

Yes, this was a pleasant surprise indeed :)

This useless mail from a mere user is just to testify that I've used reiser4
on my laptop since June 2004, and that, barring occasional hiccups, I never
had serious problems with it. In fact I haven't lost a single bit of data
despite crashes and cold shutdowns due to power outage.

I don't know if this means something or if I've just been lucky, but it seems
to me that when reiser4 crashes (and sometimes it does, given its young age),
it behaves very very well. That's the thing that impressed me the most (and
it is really something, given for example the debacle of a mature filesystem
like XFS in 2.6.17). Oh, and performance, of course ;)

I really hope that the technical difficulties that are preventing reiser4 from
entering mainline will be sorted out soon.

Thanks,

Francesco (crawling back in the shadow)

--
Dr. Francesco Biscani
Dipartimento di Astronomia
UniversitÓ di Padova
biscani [at] pd
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matthias.andree at gmx

Jul 25, 2006, 1:49 PM

Post #53 of 223 (10553 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Denis Vlasenko wrote:

> I, on the contrary, want software to impose as few limits on me
> as possible.

As long as it's choosing some limit, I'll pick the one with fewer
surprises.

--
Matthias Andree
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vonbrand at inf

Jul 25, 2006, 2:17 PM

Post #54 of 223 (10578 views)
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Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

Hans Reiser <reiser [at] namesys> wrote:
> Wow, I would never have guessed our market share was that high as 1/5th
> of ext3. I mean, you can't even get a distro which allows you to
> install onto reiser4 without hours of work so far as I know. I guess
> there are people who really do care about twice as fast.

That makes the data /higly/ suspect: Most of the Linux users I know
wouldn't know where to start to compile a kernel, forget about patching
around. And of the minority who can, they mostly run machines in
production, and won't dream of using non-distribution kernels, let alone
custom patched ones.

BTW, where do you get the "twice as fast" number from?
--
Dr. Horst H. von Brand User #22616 counter.li.org
Departamento de Informatica Fono: +56 32 654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria +56 32 654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile Fax: +56 32 797513

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Valdis.Kletnieks at vt

Jul 25, 2006, 2:44 PM

Post #55 of 223 (10560 views)
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Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 06:30:23 EDT, Theodore Tso said:
> both have to do a line-by-line review, and with a promise of on-disk
> and ABI compatibility *forever* ---- that we do more commits in a week

"forever"? Man, that's hard-core. Is that *really* the guideline, or is
it some "might as well be forever in this industry" rule like "5 years"?


jim at why

Jul 25, 2006, 3:48 PM

Post #56 of 223 (10563 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On 07/25/06 05:17:48PM -0400, Horst H. von Brand wrote:
> Hans Reiser <reiser [at] namesys> wrote:
> > Wow, I would never have guessed our market share was that high as 1/5th
> > of ext3. I mean, you can't even get a distro which allows you to
> > install onto reiser4 without hours of work so far as I know. I guess
> > there are people who really do care about twice as fast.
>
> That makes the data /higly/ suspect: Most of the Linux users I know
> wouldn't know where to start to compile a kernel, forget about patching
> around. And of the minority who can, they mostly run machines in
> production, and won't dream of using non-distribution kernels, let alone
> custom patched ones.

Well if you take a look at the KLive webpage you'll see that there's only
485 computers providing data. I'm not trying to knock Andrea's project, but
the sample size is quite small and only really representative of people who
would be inclined to read lkml, patch their kernels, etc.

Jim.
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ninja at slaphack

Jul 25, 2006, 4:04 PM

Post #57 of 223 (10575 views)
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Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

Matthias Andree wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Denis Vlasenko wrote:
>
>> I, on the contrary, want software to impose as few limits on me
>> as possible.
>
> As long as it's choosing some limit, I'll pick the one with fewer
> surprises.

Running out of inodes would be pretty surprising for me.

But then, I guess it's a good thing I don't admin for a living anymore.
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genoni at sns

Jul 25, 2006, 4:45 PM

Post #58 of 223 (10577 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

I suppose from the ones, lime me, who has production servers, but also some
test system to play with.

Luigi
On Tuesday 25 July 2006 23:17, Horst H. von Brand wrote:
> Hans Reiser <reiser [at] namesys> wrote:
> > Wow, I would never have guessed our market share was that high as 1/5th
> > of ext3. I mean, you can't even get a distro which allows you to
> > install onto reiser4 without hours of work so far as I know. I guess
> > there are people who really do care about twice as fast.
>
> That makes the data /higly/ suspect: Most of the Linux users I know
> wouldn't know where to start to compile a kernel, forget about patching
> around. And of the minority who can, they mostly run machines in
> production, and won't dream of using non-distribution kernels, let alone
> custom patched ones.
>
> BTW, where do you get the "twice as fast" number from?
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andrea at cpushare

Jul 25, 2006, 4:48 PM

Post #59 of 223 (10565 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 06:48:35PM -0400, Jim Crilly wrote:
> Well if you take a look at the KLive webpage you'll see that there's only
> 485 computers providing data. I'm not trying to knock Andrea's project, but
> the sample size is quite small and only really representative of people who
> would be inclined to read lkml, patch their kernels, etc.

There are quite a few using the official distro kernels but the point
remains that the KLive users are probably the ones most interested to
try all new stuff and to live on the edge. They're not afraid to put
the new technologies to work for them. That's probably why they're
using reiser4 so much. OTOH they're probably the ones putting the fs
under the most stress, a regular desktop user not capable of running
klive.sh --install from the shell, would probably leave his CPU and
harddisk idle most of the time too.

Being this only a sample I can't come up with absolute figures, but
obviously there are more users than what is being recorded by KLive.

However the sample is not so small, in less then a year KLive logged
76740 days of uptime and 61355 reboots (or klive session restarts),
and like you noticed an average of about 400-500 systems are always
connected.
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ninja at slaphack

Jul 25, 2006, 4:51 PM

Post #60 of 223 (10571 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

Russell Cattelan wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-07-23 at 01:20 -0600, Hans Reiser wrote:
>> Jeff, I think that a large part of what is going on is that any patch
>> that can be read in 15 minutes gets reviewed immediately, and any patch
>> that is worked on for 5 years and then takes a week to read gets
[...]
>> It is importand that we embrace our diversity, and be happy for the
>> strength it gives us. Some of us are good at small patches that evolve,
>> and some are good at escaping local optimums. We all have value, both
>> trees and grass have their place in the world.
>>
> Which is summed up quite well by:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed
>
> It seem to be a well know tendency for people to want to
> be involved in some way, thus keeping to much of the development
> cycle internal tends to generate friction.

No, I think Hans is right.

Although I should mention, Hans, that there is a really good reason to
prefer the 15 minute patches. The patches that take a week are much
harder to read during that week than any number of 15 minute incremental
patches, because the incremental patches are already broken down into
nice, small, readable, ordered chunks. And since development follows
some sort of logical, orderly pattern, it can be much easier to read it
that way than to try to consider the whole.

Think of it this way -- why are debuggers useful? One of the nicest
thing about a debugger, especially for newbies, is the ability to step
through a program a line at a time. It's the same principle -- you can
understand the program state at one point in time, and the impact of one
line of code, much more easily than the overall model of the program
state (and all of its edge cases), or the impact of several hundred
(thousand? tens of thousands?) lines of code.

So while I don't blame the Namesys team for putting off inclusion till
it's done, I also can't really blame the kernel guys for not wanting to
read it, especially if it's revolutionary. Revolutionary ideas are hard
to grasp, and it's not their fault.

I mean, if revolutionary ideas were easy, why didn't you write Reiser4
for a system like, say, Tunes? (http://tunes.org/) Say what you will,
but there are ways of doing fast filesystems which don't require that
said filesystems be written in kernel C. Consider this:

http://www.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/

If I understand that right, it's a mechanism for writing kernel code in
languages like "Java, Lisp, Scheme, or ML"...

If we could all grasp every single good (best) idea from every corner of
software engineering, and write completely new software (including the
OS) using those ideas, we could potentially replace all existing
software in something like 3-5 years with software which has none of the
problems ours does now. We'd never have inflexibility, insecurity,
instability, user interface issues... Never have to worry about getting
software out the door (it'd be so fast to develop), but always have it
designed the right way the first time, yet be able to rearrange it
completely with only 5-10 line patches.

So it's not always the computer hardware that's the limitation. Often
it's our hardware as well. Human beings usually aren't equipped to be
able to grok the whole universe all at once. If we were... see above.
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ninja at slaphack

Jul 25, 2006, 5:29 PM

Post #61 of 223 (10563 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

Horst H. von Brand wrote:

> 18GiB = 18 million KiB, you do have a point there. But 40 million files on
> that, with some space to spare, just doesn't add up.

Right, ok...

Here's a quick check of my box. I've explicitly stated which root-level
directories to search, to avoid nfs mounts, chrooted OSes, and virtual
filesystems like /proc and /sys.

elite ~ # find /bin/ /boot/ /dev/ /emul/ /etc/ /home /lib32 /lib64 /opt
/root /sbin /tmp /usr /var -type f -size 1 | wc -l
246127

According to the "find" manpage:

-size n[bckw]
File uses n units of space. The units are 512-byte blocks by
default or if `b' follows n, bytes if `c' follows n, kilobytes
if `k' follows n, or 2-byte words if `w' follows n. The size
does not count indirect blocks, but it does count blocks in
sparse files that are not actually allocated.


And I certainly didn't plan it that way. And this is my desktop box,
and I'm just one user. Most of the space is taken up by movies.

And yet, I have almost 250k files at the moment whose size is less than
512 bytes. And this is a normal usage pattern. It's not hard to
imagine something prone to creating lots of tiny files, combined with
thousands of users, easily hitting some 40 mil files -- and since none
of them are movies, it could fit in 18 gigs.

I mean, just for fun:

elite ~ # find /bin/ /boot/ /dev/ /emul/ /etc/ /home /lib32 /lib64 /opt
/root /sbin /tmp /usr /var | wc -l
866160

It may not be a good idea, but it's possible. And one of the larger
reasons it's not a good idea is that most filesystems can't handle it.
Kind of like how BitTorrent is a very bad idea on dialup, but a very
good idea on broadband.
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dlang at digitalinsight

Jul 25, 2006, 5:36 PM

Post #62 of 223 (10577 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, David Masover wrote:

> Horst H. von Brand wrote:
>
>> 18GiB = 18 million KiB, you do have a point there. But 40 million files on
>> that, with some space to spare, just doesn't add up.

if you have 18 million KiB and each file is a single block (512 Bytes = 0.5 Kib)
then assuming zero overhead you could fit 18 Million KiB / 0.5 KiB = 36 Million
files on the drive.

thus being scheptical about 40 million files on a 18G drive.

this is only possible if you are abel to have multiple files per 512 byte block.

David Lang

> Right, ok...
>
> Here's a quick check of my box. I've explicitly stated which root-level
> directories to search, to avoid nfs mounts, chrooted OSes, and virtual
> filesystems like /proc and /sys.
>
> elite ~ # find /bin/ /boot/ /dev/ /emul/ /etc/ /home /lib32 /lib64 /opt
> /root /sbin /tmp /usr /var -type f -size 1 | wc -l
> 246127
>
> According to the "find" manpage:
>
> -size n[bckw]
> File uses n units of space. The units are 512-byte blocks by
> default or if `b' follows n, bytes if `c' follows n, kilobytes
> if `k' follows n, or 2-byte words if `w' follows n. The size
> does not count indirect blocks, but it does count blocks in
> sparse files that are not actually allocated.
>
>
> And I certainly didn't plan it that way. And this is my desktop box,
> and I'm just one user. Most of the space is taken up by movies.
>
> And yet, I have almost 250k files at the moment whose size is less than
> 512 bytes. And this is a normal usage pattern. It's not hard to
> imagine something prone to creating lots of tiny files, combined with
> thousands of users, easily hitting some 40 mil files -- and since none
> of them are movies, it could fit in 18 gigs.
>
> I mean, just for fun:
>
> elite ~ # find /bin/ /boot/ /dev/ /emul/ /etc/ /home /lib32 /lib64 /opt
> /root /sbin /tmp /usr /var | wc -l
> 866160
>
> It may not be a good idea, but it's possible. And one of the larger
> reasons it's not a good idea is that most filesystems can't handle it.
> Kind of like how BitTorrent is a very bad idea on dialup, but a very
> good idea on broadband.
>
>
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ninja at slaphack

Jul 25, 2006, 5:44 PM

Post #63 of 223 (10551 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

Hans Reiser wrote:

> to use as his default. Now that we paid the 5 year development price
> tag to get everything as plugins, we can now upgrade in littler pieces
> than any other FS. Hmm, I need a buzz phrase, its not extreme
> programming, maybe "moderate programming". Does that sound exciting to

Hah! No, it doesn't sound exciting.

Plugins don't work well either, not as a marketing concept. People have
had so many bad experiences with plugins, and they're only ever visible
when you have a bad experience. Think about it -- missing plugin (so
you have to download it),

On the other hand, it works for WordPress. My day job is work on a
plugin for WordPress. Not including a link because I feel dirty for
having to work with PHP...

Fluid programming? If you build a solution from the bottom up with
gravel or large rocks, you leave gaps that are hard to fill without
ripping off the top layer and redoing it. But if you can do fluid
programming, your program just flows around any obstacle, and into every
crack / between every space (metaphor for new customer requirements)...
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ninja at slaphack

Jul 25, 2006, 5:47 PM

Post #64 of 223 (10547 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

David Lang wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, David Masover wrote:
>
>> Horst H. von Brand wrote:
>>
>>> 18GiB = 18 million KiB, you do have a point there. But 40 million
>>> files on
>>> that, with some space to spare, just doesn't add up.
>
> if you have 18 million KiB and each file is a single block (512 Bytes =
> 0.5 Kib) then assuming zero overhead you could fit 18 Million KiB / 0.5
> KiB = 36 Million files on the drive.
>
> thus being scheptical about 40 million files on a 18G drive.
>
> this is only possible if you are abel to have multiple files per 512
> byte block.

I believe Reiser4 does this. Does ext3? I know I heard somewhere in
this thread that you can't set the blocksize lower than 1k...
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genoni at sns

Jul 26, 2006, 12:59 AM

Post #65 of 223 (10557 views)
Permalink
Re: the ' 'official' point of view' expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Wed, July 26, 2006 02:44, David Masover wrote:
> Hans Reiser wrote:
>
>
>> to use as his default. Now that we paid the 5 year development price tag
>> to get everything as plugins, we can now upgrade in littler pieces than
>> any other FS. Hmm, I need a buzz phrase, its not extreme programming,
>> maybe "moderate programming". Does that sound exciting to
>
> Hah! No, it doesn't sound exciting.
>
>
> Plugins don't work well either, not as a marketing concept. People have
> had so many bad experiences with plugins, and they're only ever visible when
> you have a bad experience. Think about it -- missing plugin (so you have to
> download it),
>
marketing?
</joke mode on>
if you do not like the word "plugin" why don't you suggest some alternative?
like "modules"?
</joke mode off>

Seriously, please leave out this kind of marketing. The plugin concept in
reiser4 is probably the most interessant feature I filesystem some users
could need.

>
> Fluid programming? If you build a solution from the bottom up with
> gravel or large rocks, you leave gaps that are hard to fill without ripping
> off the top layer and redoing it. But if you can do fluid programming, your
> program just flows around any obstacle, and into every crack / between every
> space (metaphor for new customer requirements)...

probably I do not know english enought well to appraciate this metaphor and
to understand what it means.


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tao at acc

Jul 26, 2006, 3:38 AM

Post #66 of 223 (10575 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Sun, Jul 23, 2006 at 01:20:40AM -0600, Hans Reiser wrote:
> Jeff, I think that a large part of what is going on is that any patch
> that can be read in 15 minutes gets reviewed immediately, and any patch
> that is worked on for 5 years and then takes a week to read gets
> neglected. This is true even if line for line the 1 week to read patch
> is more valuable. What is more is that people know this is
> irrational, but aren't able to cure it in themselves. Even I have a
> problem of paying too much attention to endless 5 minute emails when I
> know I should instead, say, read the compression plugin from beginning
> to end.

Well, the problem is that someone actually went through the
effort of doing the week-long reviews of your code, you flamed him
every time he suggested that there was need for improvement, instead
of saying thanks for all the hard work and implementing the needed
fixes.

Not exactly the right way to make people fond of reviewing your code.
Getting flamed by someone having a hard time taking criticism
after spending 5 minutes to review a patch is bearable, after all,
what's 5 minutes, right? Flaming someone that has put down a week
or two of hard work on review is just disrespectful.

[snip]


Regards: David Weinehall
--
/) David Weinehall <tao [at] acc> /) Northern lights wander (\
// Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky //
\) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/ (/ Full colour fire (/
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matthias.andree at gmx

Jul 26, 2006, 4:20 AM

Post #67 of 223 (10560 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, David Masover wrote:

> Matthias Andree wrote:
> > On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Denis Vlasenko wrote:
> >
> >> I, on the contrary, want software to impose as few limits on me
> >> as possible.
> >
> > As long as it's choosing some limit, I'll pick the one with fewer
> > surprises.
>
> Running out of inodes would be pretty surprising for me.

No offense: Then it was a surprise for you because you closed your eyes
and didn't look at df -i or didn't have monitors in place.

There is no way to ask how many files with particular hash values you
can still stuff into a reiserfs 3.X. There, you're running into a brick
wall that only your forehead will "see" when you touch it.

Of course, different sites have different needs and if you need
gazillions of inodes or file names, you may see trouble.

But the assertion that some backup was the cause for inode exhaustion on
ext? is not very plausible since hard links do not take up inodes,
symlinks are not backups and everything else requires disk blocks. So,
since reformatting ext2/ext3 to one inode per block is possible
(regardless of disk capacity), I see no way how a reformatted file
system might run out of inodes before it runs out of blocks.

--
Matthias Andree
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matthias.andree at gmx

Jul 26, 2006, 4:26 AM

Post #68 of 223 (10665 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Matthias Andree wrote:

> But the assertion that some backup was the cause for inode exhaustion on
> ext? is not very plausible since hard links do not take up inodes,
> symlinks are not backups and everything else requires disk blocks. So,
> since reformatting ext2/ext3 to one inode per block is possible
> (regardless of disk capacity), I see no way how a reformatted file
> system might run out of inodes before it runs out of blocks.

OK; ext2/ext3 require 1k blocks, but still you need heaps of files < 1k
to run out of inodes without running of space.

--
Matthias Andree
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LuukvanderDuim at pahw

Jul 26, 2006, 5:43 AM

Post #69 of 223 (10584 views)
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Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

I think the whole thing resembles the ALSA merge case(?)
Also a big blob which was offered at once developped seperately in alsa-devel.

It took Jaroslav and others a few years to convince Linus, him disliking music, he had no appetite for ALSA.
Did Alan end up feeding it to Linus by putting cream on top?
Truth is he was busy being annoyed over scsi layer and other things. He ended up having no trouble at all
with the 79,000 line patch.. It was merged in 2.5.4

I tried reiserV4 in the earlier days of V4 (2000?), I only used it on a non-critical partition but it worked fine for me although tools were still in development then
and _to me_ performance benefits were irreproduceable.

Even rmap had to go out of 2.4.10 because Linus thought the carpet would never fit the floor, no matter how many patches were to come.
I can imagine he's not to keen experimenting on things better than sliced bread (without cream).

Development trees also weren't an option because people kept being annoyed over too many things being broke at the same time.


Luuk

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bunk at stusta

Jul 26, 2006, 5:45 AM

Post #70 of 223 (10554 views)
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Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 11:47:29AM -0600, Hans Reiser wrote:

> Wow, I would never have guessed our market share was that high as 1/5th
> of ext3. I mean, you can't even get a distro which allows you to
> install onto reiser4 without hours of work so far as I know. I guess
> there are people who really do care about twice as fast.

I doubt Andreas values have much value.

According to the numbers on the klive website, Gentoo has 47 times as
many users as SuSE (sic).

Considering that klive is offered by someone working for SuSE, the
Gentoo project could make a good news article ("Numbers by a SuSE
developer confirm Gentoo has 47 times the market share of Suse.")
out of it. ;-)

> Hans

cu
Adrian

--

"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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be-news06 at lina

Jul 26, 2006, 6:02 AM

Post #71 of 223 (10577 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

Hello,

I know thats not relevant for the discussion, but I wanted to share my
experiences anyway (to emphasis how important df-i monitoring on smaller
filesystems is):

Matthias Andree <matthias.andree [at] gmx> wrote:
> But the assertion that some backup was the cause for inode exhaustion on
> ext? is not very plausible since hard links do not take up inodes,
> symlinks are not backups and everything else requires disk blocks. So,
> since reformatting ext2/ext3 to one inode per block is possible
> (regardless of disk capacity), I see no way how a reformatted file
> system might run out of inodes before it runs out of blocks.

Well I had actually the problem on a tmpfs where I had too many zero byte
files...

Gruss
Bernd



>
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pavel at ucw

Jul 26, 2006, 6:08 AM

Post #72 of 223 (10533 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

Hi!

> > A much more important effect is that non-maintainers aren't familiar
> > with coding and patch submission guidelines. For example, in
> > suspend2, Nigel first tried with patches that were too monolithic,
> > and then his next series was too broken down such that it was too
> > hard to review (and "git bisect" wouldn't work).
>
> All his submissions since 2004 or so? It's a little easy to limit
> oneself to the last two ones.

Nigel did not do any submissions in 2004 or so. Check your fact, that
stuff was marked 'RFC' and yes I did comment on it.

He did 1 (one) submission that looked like SubmittingPatches at the
first sight, and that was very recent.

Stop spreading lies.

Pavel
--
Thanks for all the (sleeping) penguins.
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pavel at ucw

Jul 26, 2006, 6:17 AM

Post #73 of 223 (10571 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

Hi!

> >of the story for me. There's nothing wrong about focusing on newer code,
> >but the old code needs to be cared for, too, to fix remaining issues
> >such as the "can only have N files with the same hash value".
> >
> Requires a disk format change, in a filesystem without plugins, to fix it.

Well, too bad, if reiser3 is so broken it needs on-disk-format-change,
then I guess doing that change is the right thing to do...
Pavel
--
Thanks for all the (sleeping) penguins.
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andrea at cpushare

Jul 26, 2006, 6:29 AM

Post #74 of 223 (10572 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 02:45:57PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 11:47:29AM -0600, Hans Reiser wrote:
>
> > Wow, I would never have guessed our market share was that high as 1/5th
> > of ext3. I mean, you can't even get a distro which allows you to
> > install onto reiser4 without hours of work so far as I know. I guess
> > there are people who really do care about twice as fast.
>
> I doubt Andreas values have much value.

I think nobody ever pretended them to have much value, they only need
to have some minor value to be useful. And as far as I can tell no
better source of data about the kernel testing userbase exists as of
today.

> According to the numbers on the klive website, Gentoo has 47 times as
> many users as SuSE (sic).
>
> Considering that klive is offered by someone working for SuSE, the
> Gentoo project could make a good news article ("Numbers by a SuSE
> developer confirm Gentoo has 47 times the market share of Suse.")
> out of it. ;-)

Oh well, you misunderstood KLive completely. Please read again the top
of the page: "this project aims to provide kernel live feedback about
the usage of every different Linux Kernel version". Where did I ever
mention anything about distributions?

There's absolutely no way to tell which distribution is running. I
only can tell which _kernel_ is running. It could be 100% of the
mainline users are running mainline on top of SUSE distro, or on top
of Gentoo, or on top of Ubuntuu, there's absolutely no way to know
about the distro. Nobody could ever make a claim like the above by
using the KLive data.

To make an example I run mainline myself on top of opensuse 10.1, and
I get rightfully accounted as a "mainline" and not as a "SUSE".

All you can tell is that there are many more people running KLive in
combination with Gentoo kernels than with SUSE kernels. But you can't
tell anything about what kind of distribution is running. One could
guess the Gentoo kernels run on top of a Gentoo userland, but for the
mainline ones you really can't tell, they could be slackware but they
could be any other distro too.

Also note that the cpushare.com domain is not related to any distro,
so the fact I also do consulting for SUSE is irrelevant to KLive or
any other dealings at the cpushare.com domain. As long there is people
running KLive and browsing the website like now, it means somebody
thinks it's useful and so I keep delivering the service.

As of now, the Gentoo and mainline kernel users are the ones providing
most of the feedback.

Perhaps I should have filed a patent on KLive too just to make you
happy, right?
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bunk at stusta

Jul 26, 2006, 6:43 AM

Post #75 of 223 (10555 views)
Permalink
Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org regarding reiser4 inclusion [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 03:29:57PM +0200, andrea [at] cpushare wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 02:45:57PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 11:47:29AM -0600, Hans Reiser wrote:
> >
> > > Wow, I would never have guessed our market share was that high as 1/5th
> > > of ext3. I mean, you can't even get a distro which allows you to
> > > install onto reiser4 without hours of work so far as I know. I guess
> > > there are people who really do care about twice as fast.
> >
> > I doubt Andreas values have much value.
>
> I think nobody ever pretended them to have much value, they only need
> to have some minor value to be useful. And as far as I can tell no
> better source of data about the kernel testing userbase exists as of
> today.
>...

Hans said "Wow, I would never have guessed our market share was that
high as 1/5th of ext3."

And estimate of the marked share based on klive data is simply wrong.
That was my point.

My distribution example was just one example of what happens when you
wrongly try to estimate a marked share based on klive data (and it seems
you missed the smiley after the last paragraph of my email).

cu
Adrian

--

"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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