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Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data

 

 

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jbruni at me

Aug 12, 2009, 7:46 PM

Post #1 of 33 (2597 views)
Permalink
Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256


http://www.securityfocus.com/news/11556

Not entirely on topic, but for those using GnuPG (or other encryption
software), you should always keep abreast of the encryption laws of
your country.

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faramir.cl at gmail

Aug 13, 2009, 12:32 AM

Post #2 of 33 (2538 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Joseph Oreste Bruni escribió:
>
> http://www.securityfocus.com/news/11556
>
> Not entirely on topic, but for those using GnuPG (or other encryption
> software), you should always keep abreast of the encryption laws of your
> country.

Unfortunately, it is not unusual people forgets the passphrases used
to protect files, or secret keys...

Best Regards
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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shavital at mac

Aug 13, 2009, 3:59 AM

Post #3 of 33 (2532 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

Faramir wrote the following on 8/13/09 3:32 AM:
[...]

> Unfortunately, it is not unusual people forgets the passphrases used
> to protect files, or secret keys...
>
> Best Regards


"Two people have been successfully prosecuted for *refusing* to provide
U.K......."

Charly

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ceprn at hotmail

Aug 13, 2009, 5:40 AM

Post #4 of 33 (2524 views)
Permalink
RE: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

oops, didn't reply all...

And if you look at the cases reported, these are not system admins refusing to divulge data, or even regular people trying to protect their privacy - they are child molestors and wanna-be terrorists.

encrytion is about maintaining personal and data privacy; it's not about having a tool to break the law.



PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away.

I work to live; I don't live to work.

"Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." -- Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967)

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. -- William G. McAdoo

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -- Seneca

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony





----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 06:59:55 -0400
> From: shavital [at] mac
> Subject: Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data
> To: gnupg-users [at] gnupg
>
> Faramir wrote the following on 8/13/09 3:32 AM:
> [...]
>
>> Unfortunately, it is not unusual people forgets the passphrases used
>> to protect files, or secret keys...
>>
>> Best Regards
>
>
> "Two people have been successfully prosecuted for *refusing* to provide
> U.K......."
>
> Charly
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users [at] gnupg
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
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dave.smith at st

Aug 13, 2009, 6:30 AM

Post #5 of 33 (2521 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 06:59:55AM -0400, Charly Avital wrote:
> Faramir wrote the following on 8/13/09 3:32 AM:
> > Unfortunately, it is not unusual people forgets the passphrases used
> > to protect files, or secret keys...
>
> "Two people have been successfully prosecuted for *refusing* to provide
> U.K......."

You are, of course, assuming that the reporting is correct in its
implication that the defendants either admitted to having access to the
keys, or that it has been proven that they do have the keys.

I remember a lot of discussion at the time that the RIP bill was being
pushed through about the difficulty of proving that you don't have
access to a particular piece of information.

The RIPA is a particularly nasty piece of legislation in this respect.

--
David Smith | Tel: +44 (0)1454 462380 Home: +44 (0)1454 616963
STMicroelectronics | Fax: +44 (0)1454 462305 Mobile: +44 (0)7932 642724
1000 Aztec West | TINA: 065 2380 GPG Key: 0xF13192F2
Almondsbury | Work Email: Dave.Smith [at] st
BRISTOL, BS32 4SQ | Home Email: David.Smith [at] ds-electronics

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Michael.GRIFFITHS at arc-intl

Aug 13, 2009, 6:34 AM

Post #6 of 33 (2522 views)
Permalink
RE: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

Yes, and I'm sure that the government's (in any country) will word these
cases in there own favour and make anyone who uses this technology look
like the bad guys


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________

Michael Griffiths - IT Systems Administrator

Direct dial: +44 (0) 113 2763422 | Office: +44 (0) 113 2710033 - Ext:
203 | Mobile: +44 (0) 788 1957504
Address: Arc House | Middleton Grove| Beeston | Leeds | LS11 5BX | UK
Email: michael.griffiths [at] arc-intl

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________


-----Original Message-----
From: gnupg-users-bounces [at] gnupg
[mailto:gnupg-users-bounces [at] gnupg] On Behalf Of David SMITH
Sent: 13 August 2009 14:30
To: gnupg-users [at] gnupg
Subject: Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 06:59:55AM -0400, Charly Avital wrote:
> Faramir wrote the following on 8/13/09 3:32 AM:
> > Unfortunately, it is not unusual people forgets the passphrases
> > used to protect files, or secret keys...
>
> "Two people have been successfully prosecuted for *refusing* to
> provide U.K......."

You are, of course, assuming that the reporting is correct in its
implication that the defendants either admitted to having access to the
keys, or that it has been proven that they do have the keys.

I remember a lot of discussion at the time that the RIP bill was being
pushed through about the difficulty of proving that you don't have
access to a particular piece of information.

The RIPA is a particularly nasty piece of legislation in this respect.

--
David Smith | Tel: +44 (0)1454 462380 Home: +44 (0)1454 616963
STMicroelectronics | Fax: +44 (0)1454 462305 Mobile: +44 (0)7932 642724
1000 Aztec West | TINA: 065 2380 GPG Key: 0xF13192F2
Almondsbury | Work Email: Dave.Smith [at] st
BRISTOL, BS32 4SQ | Home Email: David.Smith [at] ds-electronics

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ceprn at hotmail

Aug 13, 2009, 6:41 AM

Post #7 of 33 (2532 views)
Permalink
RE: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

If you're in control of the computer the files reside on, and were in control of it when the files were created and last accessed, the chances that you *don't* know the key for the encryption is so slim as to be nonexistant.



peace,

clark

PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away.

I work to live; I don't live to work.

"Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." -- Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967)

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. -- William G. McAdoo

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -- Seneca

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony



> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:30:01 +0100
> From: dave.smith [at] st
> To: gnupg-users [at] gnupg
> Subject: Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 06:59:55AM -0400, Charly Avital wrote:
> > Faramir wrote the following on 8/13/09 3:32 AM:
> > > Unfortunately, it is not unusual people forgets the passphrases used
> > > to protect files, or secret keys...
> >
> > "Two people have been successfully prosecuted for *refusing* to provide
> > U.K......."
>
> You are, of course, assuming that the reporting is correct in its
> implication that the defendants either admitted to having access to the
> keys, or that it has been proven that they do have the keys.
>
> I remember a lot of discussion at the time that the RIP bill was being
> pushed through about the difficulty of proving that you don't have
> access to a particular piece of information.
>
> The RIPA is a particularly nasty piece of legislation in this respect.
>
> --
> David Smith | Tel: +44 (0)1454 462380 Home: +44 (0)1454 616963
> STMicroelectronics | Fax: +44 (0)1454 462305 Mobile: +44 (0)7932 642724
> 1000 Aztec West | TINA: 065 2380 GPG Key: 0xF13192F2
> Almondsbury | Work Email: Dave.Smith [at] st
> BRISTOL, BS32 4SQ | Home Email: David.Smith [at] ds-electronics
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users [at] gnupg
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

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iainr at inf

Aug 13, 2009, 6:44 AM

Post #8 of 33 (2521 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

David SMITH wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 06:59:55AM -0400, Charly Avital wrote:
>
>> Faramir wrote the following on 8/13/09 3:32 AM:
>>
>>> Unfortunately, it is not unusual people forgets the passphrases used
>>> to protect files, or secret keys...
>>>
>> "Two people have been successfully prosecuted for *refusing* to provide
>> U.K......."
>>
>
> You are, of course, assuming that the reporting is correct in its
> implication that the defendants either admitted to having access to the
> keys, or that it has been proven that they do have the keys.
>
> I remember a lot of discussion at the time that the RIP bill was being
> pushed through about the difficulty of proving that you don't have
> access to a particular piece of information.
>
> The RIPA is a particularly nasty piece of legislation in this respect.
>
I've often wondered what the situation would be if you'd set your
password to
"go and F**k yourself"
and were then required to provide it under the RIP bill.
At the very least it would make for a very entertaining interview.





> --
> David Smith | Tel: +44 (0)1454 462380 Home: +44 (0)1454 616963
> STMicroelectronics | Fax: +44 (0)1454 462305 Mobile: +44 (0)7932 642724
> 1000 Aztec West | TINA: 065 2380 GPG Key: 0xF13192F2
> Almondsbury | Work Email: Dave.Smith [at] st
> BRISTOL, BS32 4SQ | Home Email: David.Smith [at] ds-electronics
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users [at] gnupg
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
>
>


--
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Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


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dave.smith at st

Aug 13, 2009, 6:49 AM

Post #9 of 33 (2524 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 08:41:37AM -0500, the dragon wrote:
> If you're in control of the computer the files reside on, and were
> in control of it when the files were created and last accessed, the
> chances that you *don't* know the key for the encryption is so slim
> as to be nonexistant.

So the people who come on gnupg-users asking for help because they've
forgotten their passphrase or accidentally deleted their ~/.gnupg
directory don't exist?

I guess that's a new way of replying to them: "You don't exist".

Not forgetting the possibility of malicious intentions - trying to frame
someone by putting encrypted data onto someone's computer and tipping
off the authorities.

--
David Smith | Tel: +44 (0)1454 462380 Home: +44 (0)1454 616963
STMicroelectronics | Fax: +44 (0)1454 462305 Mobile: +44 (0)7932 642724
1000 Aztec West | TINA: 065 2380 GPG Key: 0xF13192F2
Almondsbury | Work Email: Dave.Smith [at] st
BRISTOL, BS32 4SQ | Home Email: David.Smith [at] ds-electronics

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Michael.GRIFFITHS at arc-intl

Aug 13, 2009, 6:53 AM

Post #10 of 33 (2532 views)
Permalink
RE: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

So who is on with the plausible deniability project for gpg?

I have to admit the thought of not being able to prove my innocence
doesn't sound like a good prospect. Innocent until proven guilty just
isnt an option anymore
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________

Michael Griffiths - IT Systems Administrator

Direct dial: +44 (0) 113 2763422 | Office: +44 (0) 113 2710033 - Ext:
203 | Mobile: +44 (0) 788 1957504
Address: Arc House | Middleton Grove| Beeston | Leeds | LS11 5BX | UK
Email: michael.griffiths [at] arc-intl

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________


-----Original Message-----
From: gnupg-users-bounces [at] gnupg
[mailto:gnupg-users-bounces [at] gnupg] On Behalf Of David SMITH
Sent: 13 August 2009 14:50
To: gnupg-users [at] gnupg
Subject: Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 08:41:37AM -0500, the dragon wrote:
> If you're in control of the computer the files reside on, and were in
> control of it when the files were created and last accessed, the
> chances that you *don't* know the key for the encryption is so slim as

> to be nonexistant.

So the people who come on gnupg-users asking for help because they've
forgotten their passphrase or accidentally deleted their ~/.gnupg
directory don't exist?

I guess that's a new way of replying to them: "You don't exist".

Not forgetting the possibility of malicious intentions - trying to frame
someone by putting encrypted data onto someone's computer and tipping
off the authorities.

--
David Smith | Tel: +44 (0)1454 462380 Home: +44 (0)1454 616963
STMicroelectronics | Fax: +44 (0)1454 462305 Mobile: +44 (0)7932 642724
1000 Aztec West | TINA: 065 2380 GPG Key: 0xF13192F2
Almondsbury | Work Email: Dave.Smith [at] st
BRISTOL, BS32 4SQ | Home Email: David.Smith [at] ds-electronics

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To ensure an optimal service, the ARC INTERNATIONAL Group uses the most powerful antiviruses and antispam systems currently available. This message and any attachments (the "message") are intended solely for the addresses and are confidential. If you receive this message in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. Any use not in accordance with its purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either in whole or in part, is prohibited without formal approval. The internet cannot guarantee the integrity of this message; ARC INTERNATIONAL (and its subsidiaries) shall (will) not therefore be liable for the message if modified.


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rjh at sixdemonbag

Aug 13, 2009, 6:59 AM

Post #11 of 33 (2521 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

the dragon wrote:
> If you're in control of the computer the files reside on, and were in
> control of it when the files were created and last accessed, the chances
> that you *don't* know the key for the encryption is so slim as to be
> nonexistant.

Apparently I don't exist, then. I have files which were last accessed
by me a year ago, for which I've forgotten the passphrases to the
symmetrically-encoded data. It's just another example of people
forgetting what they rarely use.

I'm certain there are other people here in the same boat.

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dkg at fifthhorseman

Aug 13, 2009, 7:25 AM

Post #12 of 33 (2534 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

On 08/13/2009 08:40 AM, the dragon wrote:

> And if you look at the cases reported, these are not system admins refusing
> to divulge data, or even regular people trying to protect their privacy -
> they are child molestors and wanna-be terrorists.

Some of them may molest children and some may want to be terrorists (is
wanting to be a terrorist illegal in your jurisdiction?). Some of them
may simply be accused of doing these things (or of other activities
which you might find more or less offensive than molestation or
terrorism-wanting). And perhaps they are accused incorrectly.

It sounds like the innocent accused will still be at risk of conviction
(for violating RIPA if not for their alleged crimes) if they choose to
maintain personal and data privacy in the face of these accusations.

> encrytion is about maintaining personal and data
> privacy; it's not about having a tool to break the law.

It sounds like the UK has made laws that target users of encryption
whether or not those users have actually broken other laws. So in that
sense, encryption *is* about having a tool to break the law, at least in
the UK :(

--dkg
Attachments: signature.asc (0.87 KB)


dshaw at jabberwocky

Aug 13, 2009, 7:33 AM

Post #13 of 33 (2522 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

On Aug 13, 2009, at 9:53 AM, michael GRIFFITHS wrote:

> So who is on with the plausible deniability project for gpg?
>
> I have to admit the thought of not being able to prove my innocence
> doesn't sound like a good prospect. Innocent until proven guilty just
> isnt an option anymore

While I believe Perry Metzger was referring to the US courts, this
post is still well worth reading. I doubt the situation is vastly
different outside of the US: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography [at] metzdowd/msg10391.html

David


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jhs at berklix

Aug 13, 2009, 7:38 AM

Post #14 of 33 (2525 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

Hi,
Reference:
> From: the dragon <ceprn [at] hotmail>

> And if you look at the cases reported, these are not system admins refusing to divulge data, or even regular people trying to protect their privacy - they are child molestors and wanna-be terrorists.

Bollocks, To be charged is not necessarily to be guilty, The concept
of fair trial & presumend innocent until found guilty in a court
of Law, must preceed assuming pronoun "convicted" applies to each charged.

Better stick to technology.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com
Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. http://asciiribbon.org
Virused Microsoft PCs cause spam. http://berklix.com/free/

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ceprn at hotmail

Aug 13, 2009, 7:41 AM

Post #15 of 33 (2523 views)
Permalink
RE: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

Yes, conspiracy to commit terrorism, or assisting terrorist organizations are federal felony crimes in the US.

PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away.

I work to live; I don't live to work.

"Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." -- Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967)

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. -- William G. McAdoo

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -- Seneca

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony



> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 10:25:25 -0400
> From: dkg [at] fifthhorseman
> To: ceprn [at] hotmail
> CC: gnupg-users [at] gnupg
> Subject: Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data
>
> On 08/13/2009 08:40 AM, the dragon wrote:
>
> > And if you look at the cases reported, these are not system admins refusing
> > to divulge data, or even regular people trying to protect their privacy -
> > they are child molestors and wanna-be terrorists.
>
> Some of them may molest children and some may want to be terrorists (is
> wanting to be a terrorist illegal in your jurisdiction?). Some of them
> may simply be accused of doing these things (or of other activities
> which you might find more or less offensive than molestation or
> terrorism-wanting). And perhaps they are accused incorrectly.
>
> It sounds like the innocent accused will still be at risk of conviction
> (for violating RIPA if not for their alleged crimes) if they choose to
> maintain personal and data privacy in the face of these accusations.
>
> > encrytion is about maintaining personal and data
> > privacy; it's not about having a tool to break the law.
>
> It sounds like the UK has made laws that target users of encryption
> whether or not those users have actually broken other laws. So in that
> sense, encryption *is* about having a tool to break the law, at least in
> the UK :(
>
> --dkg
>

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:082009


Michael.GRIFFITHS at arc-intl

Aug 13, 2009, 7:44 AM

Post #16 of 33 (2523 views)
Permalink
RE: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

This is what the uk law has to say on the matter (see below) so I
interpret it as this. You may not be guilty but if you don't give them
the info they require in the format they require you are then guilty of
that law.

3.1 Part III provides a statutory framework that enables public
authorities to require protected electronic information which they
have obtained lawfully or are likely to obtain lawfully be put into an
intelligible form; to acquire the means to gain access to protected
information and to acquire the means to put protected information
into an intelligible form.
3.2 The specific provisions are:
power to require disclosure of protected information in an
intelligible form (section 49);
power to require disclosure of the means to access protected
information (section 50(3)(c);
power to require disclosure of the means of putting protected
information into an intelligible form (section 50(3)(c)), and
power to attach a secrecy provision to any disclosure requirement
(section 54).
3.3 Failure to comply with a disclosure requirement or a secrecy
requirement is a criminal offence.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________

Michael Griffiths - IT Systems Administrator

Direct dial: +44 (0) 113 2763422 | Office: +44 (0) 113 2710033 - Ext:
203 | Mobile: +44 (0) 788 1957504
Address: Arc House | Middleton Grove| Beeston | Leeds | LS11 5BX | UK
Email: michael.griffiths [at] arc-intl

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________


-----Original Message-----
From: gnupg-users-bounces [at] gnupg
[mailto:gnupg-users-bounces [at] gnupg] On Behalf Of Julian H. Stacey
Sent: 13 August 2009 15:39
To: the dragon
Cc: gnupg-users [at] gnupg
Subject: Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data

Hi,
Reference:
> From: the dragon <ceprn [at] hotmail>

> And if you look at the cases reported, these are not system admins
refusing to divulge data, or even regular people trying to protect their
privacy - they are child molestors and wanna-be terrorists.

Bollocks, To be charged is not necessarily to be guilty, The concept of
fair trial & presumend innocent until found guilty in a court of Law,
must preceed assuming pronoun "convicted" applies to each charged.

Better stick to technology.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich
http://berklix.com
Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. http://asciiribbon.org
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jmoore3rd at bellsouth

Aug 13, 2009, 7:51 AM

Post #17 of 33 (2531 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> Hi,
> Reference:
>> From: the dragon <ceprn [at] hotmail>
>
>> And if you look at the cases reported, these are not system admins refusing to divulge data, or even regular people trying to protect their privacy - they are child molestors and wanna-be terrorists.
>
> Bollocks, To be charged is not necessarily to be guilty, The concept
> of fair trial & presumend innocent until found guilty in a court
> of Law, must preceed assuming pronoun "convicted" applies to each charged.

Just another example of the thinking that says 'The Police wouldn't have
charged Him/Her if they weren't guilty.' Not the sort of person You'd
want on Your Jury; but probably a neighbor, friend, etc. This attitude
is held by the vast majority of 'all people'. :(

JOHN ;)
Timestamp: Thursday 13 Aug 2009, 10:50 --400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10-svn5068: (MingW32)
Comment: Public Key at: http://tinyurl.com/8cpho
Comment: Gossamer Spider Web of Trust: http://www.gswot.org
Comment: Personal Web Page: http://tinyurl.com/yzhbhx

iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJKhChkAAoJEBCGy9eAtCsPNnQH/RQZKvkYc9et26rmKfp+snIZ
iHh7EPTjDafjuZ5DJYVDMvU/iEWPRLFEhnjgods574zv2jh0ZqbPp5DqbfLTvx3Y
ZPh48DKz53exnF2tcJ4xnRPE2ZRTnKUED0LKd0nD9X2Ddj4Bz8XekvvRmcWdAtE3
CQXNb/AXBjN9NEtqnnR7aUJTHIsfjR2OT4Yw+dJkV3tgAQt7nHXvEx7mQjgAV6bP
M/KzB5ZxkdJYee5RAntjENQBTSh5+T9HN/4x2tHk/dtd5Tdd6J1LGdR5cFzEsxPw
zRYRAcurr/X0pzhlvgoWYHO2z/n2Z9FCgMxPaQxxtIsdvQACADPyLg+2yU0OsM4=
=3PGd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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addw at phcomp

Aug 13, 2009, 7:59 AM

Post #18 of 33 (2536 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 02:44:44PM +0100, Iain Rae wrote:

> >The RIPA is a particularly nasty piece of legislation in this respect.
> >
> I've often wondered what the situation would be if you'd set your
> password to
> "go and F**k yourself"
> and were then required to provide it under the RIP bill.
> At the very least it would make for a very entertaining interview.

The other thing to bear in mind is that there have been some recent cases of
people impersonating policemen - so you do need to ask them to identify
themselves and prove who they are. If you do not then you would fall foul
of the data protection act.

--
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

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steveo at syslang

Aug 13, 2009, 10:09 AM

Post #19 of 33 (2535 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/13/09 09:41, quoth the dragon:
> If you're in control of the computer the files reside on, and were in
> control of it when the files were created and last accessed, the chances
> that you *don't* know the key for the encryption is so slim as to be
> nonexistant.

Scuze me? I thought this was the gnupg list! I'm sorta new at this stuff but
I'm expecting just a bit more expertise from the people contributing to this
conversation.

First of all, I am running Thunderbird + Enigmail and I have gone out of my
way to set "Add my own key to the recipients" to be OFF. I very much want
email that I encrypt to others to not be readable by me at all. I am not a
child pornographer or a terrorist and I do not have anything to hide except my
own personal privacy. My personal choice is that if I send a message to
someone and it is encrypted then I do *not*, by default, want to be able to
see what I sent in my own sent-mail folder. If I want that option then I can
simply Bcc myself when I send it.

Second, I happen to be a Defendant in a case in US Federal Court. (Ever heard
the phrase "Don't make a Federal case out of it?") They did. And they're right
now in the process of losing big time against us. My only regret is that when
we were served and I had nothing to hide, I wish that some of my email that I
was required to turn over as part of the Discovery process had been encrypted.
I would dearly have wanted them to come to me and say "Hey! This is encrypted
so you have to decrypt it." and my response would have been "Sorry Your Honor,
but I have no ability to decrypt that message. It can only be decrypted by the
recipient.

And yes, when I first started learning about this stuff, I did initially add
my key when encrypting and between Enigmail and gnupg.conf and gpg-agent.conf
it actually took a bit to figure out how to shut it off.

So, when we talk about "chances that you *don't* know the key for the
encryption is so slim as to be nonexistant", I think it's time for a few of us
to take a step backwards and remember what the issue is here. As it sits right
now, I do *not* know if the people who were in trouble in the UK are the
encryptors or the decryptors and I also don't know if the encryptors even
added their own keys to the message.

- --
Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like a banana. Stranger things have .0.
happened but none stranger than this. Does your driver's license say Organ ..0
Donor?Black holes are where God divided by zero. Listen to me! We are all- 000
individuals! What if this weren't a hypothetical question?
steveo at syslang.net
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkqESM4ACgkQRIVy4fC+NyQ5xACfSeTYbNZAX7pqIVd5G2WQaS33
uvMAn2gYIW8xaOIUpKtz+qk23IXM2rsK
=pXGO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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steve-gnupg at gbnet

Aug 13, 2009, 11:00 AM

Post #20 of 33 (2507 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 01:09:34PM -0400, Steven W. Orr wrote:

> Scuze me? I thought this was the gnupg list! I'm sorta new at this stuff but
> I'm expecting just a bit more expertise from the people contributing to this
> conversation.

I think the point is that they were done under RIP and you can be
prosecuted for refusing to hand over keys to encrypted systems.

It's unlikely a judge would find you guilty (or a jury) if you didn't
have the keys).

All in the name of terrorism though ...

Steve

--
NetTek Ltd UK mob +44 7775 755503
UK +44 20 7993 2612 / US +1 310 857 7715 / Fax +44 20 7483 2455
Skype/GoogleTalk/AIM/Gizmo/.Mac/Twitter/FriendFeed stevekennedyuk
Euro Tech News Blog http://eurotechnews.blogspot.com MSN steve [at] gbnet

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a24061 at ducksburg

Aug 13, 2009, 12:44 PM

Post #21 of 33 (2512 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

On 2009-08-13, David SMITH wrote:

> So the people who come on gnupg-users asking for help because they've
> forgotten their passphrase or accidentally deleted their ~/.gnupg
> directory don't exist?
>
> I guess that's a new way of replying to them: "You don't exist".
>
> Not forgetting the possibility of malicious intentions - trying to frame
> someone by putting encrypted data onto someone's computer and tipping
> off the authorities.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1000000097,2073974,00.htm

In a stunt organised by the civil liberties group Stand, The Home
Secretary Jack Straw was sent details to a crime Sunday that could
earn him up to two years in prison if the controversial e-commerce
bill were made law.
...
According to Stand an encrypted email was sent to Mr Straw Sunday
afternoon containing a confession to a real crime. The key to
decrypt the message will be in Mr Straw's name. Stand will tip off
the Metropolitan Commissioner of Police Monday, informing him that
Mr Straw has important information about a crime.

If the e-commerce bill were in place, Straw would be required to
hand over the decryption key or face up to two years in prison. "In
principle, under the bill, Jack Straw would have to prove he never
had the key in the first place. We are hoping this will help him
understand that this is unworkable, an intolerable reversal of the
burden of proof and against the Human Rights Act," Says Malcolm
Hutty, spokesman for Stand.

(September 1999)


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classpath at arcor

Aug 13, 2009, 2:02 PM

Post #22 of 33 (2512 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2009-08-13, David SMITH wrote:
>
/********SNIP**********/
>>
>> Not forgetting the possibility of malicious intentions - trying to frame
>> someone by putting encrypted data onto someone's computer and tipping
>> off the authorities.
>
> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1000000097,2073974,00.htm
>
> In a stunt organised by the civil liberties group Stand, The Home
> Secretary Jack Straw was sent details to a crime Sunday that could
> earn him up to two years in prison if the controversial e-commerce
> bill were made law.
> ...
> According to Stand an encrypted email was sent to Mr Straw Sunday
> afternoon containing a confession to a real crime. The key to
> decrypt the message will be in Mr Straw's name. Stand will tip off
> the Metropolitan Commissioner of Police Monday, informing him that
> Mr Straw has important information about a crime.
>
> If the e-commerce bill were in place, Straw would be required to
> hand over the decryption key or face up to two years in prison. "In
> principle, under the bill, Jack Straw would have to prove he never
> had the key in the first place. We are hoping this will help him
> understand that this is unworkable, an intolerable reversal of the
> burden of proof and against the Human Rights Act," Says Malcolm
> Hutty, spokesman for Stand.
>
> (September 1999)
>


Highly interesting, this was the case before 9/11-2001.


http://www.stand.org.uk/ is still online but has no stories about this
case.

See also: "An open letter to Jack Straw".


http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/1999/38/ns-10235.html


http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,2073973,00.htm

===


Surveillance: An open letter to Jack Straw

ZDNN ZDNet.co.uk

Published: 27 Sep 1999 11:25 BST

The following is a copy of the letter sent to Jack Staw today by some
particularly cheeky British privacy activists. It highlights an
embarrassing flaw in the government's proposals for monitoring email
communication and even promises Mr Straw a prison sentence for his troubles.

Dear Mr Straw,

How the E-commerce Bill could send YOU to jail...

Please find at the end of the letter a confession to a crime, which has
been affirmed by Statutory Declaration. The Commissioner of the
Metropolitan Police has been informed that you are in possession of this
information.

You will not be able to understand the confession, because the words
have been scrambled using a strong cryptographic key. This key was
created in your name and has been registered on international public key
servers.

The police may come and demand that you supply the key required to make
this message intelligible. If you fail to do so you would be committing
an offence under the E-Commerce Bill rendering you liable to
imprisonment for up to 2 years.

The fact that you don't possess this key won't help you unless you can
prove that you don't have it. I wish you well in proving that it isn't
hidden away on a disk in your secretary's home, or squirreled away on
the Internet somewhere. We might have sent it to you last week; but
according to the Bill, the police won't have to prove you ever had it at
all.

Even if you can prove that you don't have it you would STILL be liable
for imprisonment unless you give information to the police that enables
them to decrypt the key. Unfortunately for you this is impossible,
because we've destroyed all copies of the key in our possession.

If the police ask you keep the demand to hand over the key secret,
telling anyone would render you liable to five years in jail.

So you couldn't complain, or explain your predicament, to the PM or Home
Secretary, to the Chief Whip or a journalist, or even to another policeman.

Happily for all of us, the E-Commerce Bill has not yet been enacted by
Parliament, so we have not in fact set you up for jail time. The Bill
will be introduced in the coming session. I hope this exercise has
demonstrated some of the drafting flaws in the Bill as it stands, copies
of which are available from the DTI.

I hope we have also demonstrated that it is not the perpetrators of
crime who would suffer under these draconian new powers, but innocent
parties who are in receipt of communications from miscreants. This is
why such sober organisations as BT, Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft have
publicly criticised the Bill at each stage of its development.

I trust that when the Bill reaches the House we can rely on your most
careful scrutiny. Further analysis is available on our web site at:
http://www.stand.org.uk/.

I am, Sir, Your most obedient servant,

Malcolm Hutty

===

A well explained example

get email of target to convict, create a key, confess a crime and submit.


http://keyserver.pramberger.at/pks/lookup?search=Jack+Straw


===

evan facebook has a discussion of the topic:

http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=54487688497


http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1000000097,2073915,00.htm

===

"If someone who didn't like me sent me encrypted child pornography and
tipped off the police, they could come round and demand I hand over
decryption keys. As I wouldn't be able to do so, I would be going to
prison for two years,"

===

This pretty much says it all:

E-bill reverses burden of proof, says expert



Jane Wakefield ZDNet.co.uk

Published: 23 Sep 1999 15:44 BST


Newly appointed e-Minister Patricia Hewitt was forced to defend the
controversial e-commerce bill Thursday from civil liberties campaigners,
who maintain the bill is a threat to basic civil rights.

Speaking at the Scrambling for Safety conference in London, Hewitt tried
to reassure critics of the bill that they have nothing to fear from
government. She later admitted this was not always true. "In some cases,
government action itself is a threat to freedom," Hewitt said. "But it
is only action by government and law enforcement that can protect
individuals."

Prompted by questions from the floor, Hewitt had to justify the
inclusion of law-enforcement clauses in the e-commerce bill, which, she
claimed, was a necessary response to the fact "crime has gone electronic
and global".

Under government proposals, the police will have the power to demand
individuals hand over decryption keys if they are under suspicion.
Failure to comply could result in a two year prison sentence, which
breaks the rules of the European Convention on Human Rights, according
to lawyer and civil liberties campaigner Nicholas Bohm. "The Convention
states that individuals have certain rights, such as innocent until
proven guilty and the right not to incriminate oneself," he said. "The
e-commerce bill reverses the burden of proof."

Alan Duncan, shadow spokesman of Trade and Industry, gave an example of
how government proposals could affect the innocent. "If someone who
didn't like me sent me encrypted child pornography and tipped off the
police, they could come round and demand I hand over decryption keys. As
I wouldn't be able to do so, I would be going to prison for two years,"
he said.

Hewitt, who is an ex-secretary general of Liberty, denied that the
proposals reversed the burden of proof but was unable to explain why she
had reached that conclusion.

Got an opinion? Tell the Mailroom.

===

source


http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1000000097,2073915,00.htm



also please confer this

http://www.cdt.org/crypto/risks98/


4. CONCLUSIONS

Key recovery systems are inherently less secure, more costly, and more
difficult to use than similar systems without a recovery feature.

The massive deployment of key-recovery-based infrastructures to meet law
enforcement's specifications will require significant sacrifices in
security and convenience and substantially increased costs to all users
of encryption.

Furthermore, building the secure infrastructure of the breathtaking
scale and complexity that would be required for such a scheme is beyond
the experience and current competency of the field, and may well
introduce ultimately unacceptable risks and costs.

===

No police officer would be able to operate this.

No lawyer would be able to do so.

They would need to consult third parties, like NSA or even direct
contact skype, if that is the vendor. skype has encryption keys, and it
is possible to decrypt parts of the text message, according to chinese
government. The next step will be to outlaw privacy and deploy chinese
internet censorship.

===

some of the urls can be difficult to access but google and other search
engines may dig them up. It is an attempt to enforce key escrow. Or an
attempt to destroy open source encryption. It has been rumored that
since GnuPG was funded with money from the german Government, it has a
backdoor, like some rumors said about PGP.

I feel if they cannot decrypt our keys, then it cannot have any
backdoor. It may however once in a lifetime be illegal to use GnuPG.



Sincerely yours,

Morten Gulbrandsen

主バイトホイットフィールド
_____________________________________________________________________
Java programmer, C++ programmer
CAcert Assurer, GSWoT introducer, thawte Notary
Gossamer Spider Web of Trust http://www.gswot.org
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail!

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chd at chud

Aug 13, 2009, 8:46 PM

Post #23 of 33 (2470 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

the dragon wrote:
[...]
> encrytion is about maintaining personal and data privacy; it's not about having a tool to break the law.

If the encryption is strong and used correctly (with all the non-technical
elements that implies) how would you tell the difference?

-Chris
Attachments: signature.asc (0.25 KB)


faramir.cl at gmail

Aug 13, 2009, 9:00 PM

Post #24 of 33 (2481 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

the dragon escribió:
> oops, didn't reply all...
>
> And if you look at the cases reported, these are not system admins refusing to divulge data, or even regular people trying to protect their privacy - they are child molestors and wanna-be terrorists.

Should I infer from that there where already proof about their guilt?

> encrytion is about maintaining personal and data privacy; it's not about having a tool to break the law.

I agree. That's not the part that worries ME.


>> Faramir wrote the following on 8/13/09 3:32 AM:
>> [...]
>>
>>> Unfortunately, it is not unusual people forgets the passphrases used
>>> to protect files, or secret keys...
...
>> "Two people have been successfully prosecuted for *refusing* to provide
>> U.K......."
>>
>> Charly

What worries me is, if somebody is unable to decrypt the files, it
may be interpreted as refusal to decrypt it. And how can you prove you
are willing to obey, but you can't do it because you forgot the
password? If somebody say "I refuse to decrypt the data", ok, it's their
fault. But would police believe it if somebody say "sorry, I forgot the
password"?

Best Regards
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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faramir.cl at gmail

Aug 13, 2009, 9:22 PM

Post #25 of 33 (2480 views)
Permalink
Re: Two convicted in U.K. for refusal to decrypt data [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

the dragon escribió:
> If you're in control of the computer the files reside on, and were in
> control of it when the files were created and last accessed, the chances
> that you *don't* know the key for the encryption is so slim as to be
> nonexistant.

My point is about all the messages we have seen here, saying "I forgot
my passphrase, how can I recover my secret key?". Of course in "normal"
circumstances people should be able to decrypt the data, but it is not
unusual to hear about somebody who forgot the passphrase or lost the
secret key (that's the reason why usually people recommends revocation
certificates at the time of the key creation).

Best Regards
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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