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Removing pulseaudio

 

 

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acm at muc

Apr 18, 2013, 12:32 PM

Post #1 of 94 (1462 views)
Permalink
Removing pulseaudio

Hello, Gentoo.

I've just removed pulseaudio from my main Gentoo system. Why? Several
reasons:

(i) It's a "sound server", a description I don't understand. What does
it _do_? Why do I want it? It seems to be an unnecessary layer of fat
between sound applications and the kernel.

(ii) I was having problems with the last 1-2 seconds being cut off audio
streams from news sites.

(iii) The provenance of the code; it's author is also udev's maintainer,
the udev that has given most of us so much fun over the months. When
might awkwardnesses start appearing in pulseaudio?

By the way, I run sound stuff mainly in Gnome 2, using aqualung to play
CDs and listening to audio files streamed or downloaded from the net.

So, I grasped the nettle, put in a negative pulseaudio use flag, unmerged
pa and alsa-plugins, then rebuilt the 14 packages which needed it.

Surprisingly, everything still works. I now get those last seconds from
my news streams. :-)

So, yes, I can recomment the removal of pulseaudio, unless anybody's got
some particular need for it.

--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).


mikemol at gmail

Apr 18, 2013, 12:48 PM

Post #2 of 94 (1439 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

On 04/18/2013 03:32 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:

[snip]

> So, I grasped the nettle, put in a negative pulseaudio use flag, unmerged
> pa and alsa-plugins, then rebuilt the 14 packages which needed it.
>
> Surprisingly, everything still works. I now get those last seconds from
> my news streams. :-)
>
> So, yes, I can recomment the removal of pulseaudio, unless anybody's got
> some particular need for it.

IME, there is one application that all but forces the use of PulseAudio:
Flash. Once Flash grabs onto an ALSA device, it doesn't let go, so you
*must* route it through PA if you would like to reliably use it with
anything else.

My particular discovery was that if I launched WoW under WINE, and then
launched a browser, audio in WoW worked fine. If I launched the browser
first (which resulted in a flash applet being loaded in GMail for the
purpose of audio notifications for google talk), Flash grabbed the ALSA
device and no WINE application could get at it. Routing both through
PulseAudio solved the problem.

The other reason I still use PA is X11...I like to use uxterm
extensively within X, and the only way to get the X11 bell working
appears to be via PA. So that's what I do. (Googling the history of that
bit of functionality was infuriating; that was the first time Lennart
pissed me off. Before someone finally acquiesced and added the
functionality to PA, he fought it, saying it wasn't PA's job.)
Attachments: signature.asc (0.54 KB)


volkerarmin at googlemail

Apr 18, 2013, 1:02 PM

Post #3 of 94 (1453 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Am 18.04.2013 21:48, schrieb Michael Mol:
> On 04/18/2013 03:32 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> So, I grasped the nettle, put in a negative pulseaudio use flag, unmerged
>> pa and alsa-plugins, then rebuilt the 14 packages which needed it.
>>
>> Surprisingly, everything still works. I now get those last seconds from
>> my news streams. :-)
>>
>> So, yes, I can recomment the removal of pulseaudio, unless anybody's got
>> some particular need for it.
> IME, there is one application that all but forces the use of PulseAudio:
> Flash. Once Flash grabs onto an ALSA device, it doesn't let go, so you
> *must* route it through PA if you would like to reliably use it with
> anything else.
>
> My particular discovery was that if I launched WoW under WINE, and then
> launched a browser, audio in WoW worked fine. If I launched the browser
> first (which resulted in a flash applet being loaded in GMail for the
> purpose of audio notifications for google talk), Flash grabbed the ALSA
> device and no WINE application could get at it. Routing both through
> PulseAudio solved the problem.

/I can have as many flash instances as I want and still listen to stuff
being played in vlc. Without pulseaudio crap.

Maybe wine just sucks?/


stroller at stellar

Apr 18, 2013, 1:02 PM

Post #4 of 94 (1439 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

On 18 April 2013, at 20:32, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> ...
> (i) It's a "sound server", a description I don't understand. What does
> it _do_? Why do I want it? It seems to be an unnecessary layer of fat
> between sound applications and the kernel.

If you don't understand the term "sound server" you probably shouldn't be using Gentoo.

When I'm watching a YouTube video I still want to hear my email client go bing or my chat program alert me of my buddy coming online.

That's not possible if my web-browser has a hard-wired path into my soundcard and ain't letting go.

Stroller.


mikemol at gmail

Apr 18, 2013, 1:13 PM

Post #5 of 94 (1442 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

On 04/18/2013 04:02 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 18.04.2013 21:48, schrieb Michael Mol:
>> On 04/18/2013 03:32 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> So, I grasped the nettle, put in a negative pulseaudio use flag, unmerged
>>> pa and alsa-plugins, then rebuilt the 14 packages which needed it.
>>>
>>> Surprisingly, everything still works. I now get those last seconds from
>>> my news streams. :-)
>>>
>>> So, yes, I can recomment the removal of pulseaudio, unless anybody's got
>>> some particular need for it.
>> IME, there is one application that all but forces the use of PulseAudio:
>> Flash. Once Flash grabs onto an ALSA device, it doesn't let go, so you
>> *must* route it through PA if you would like to reliably use it with
>> anything else.
>>
>> My particular discovery was that if I launched WoW under WINE, and then
>> launched a browser, audio in WoW worked fine. If I launched the browser
>> first (which resulted in a flash applet being loaded in GMail for the
>> purpose of audio notifications for google talk), Flash grabbed the ALSA
>> device and no WINE application could get at it. Routing both through
>> PulseAudio solved the problem.
>
> /I can have as many flash instances as I want and still listen to stuff
> being played in vlc. Without pulseaudio crap.
>
> Maybe wine just sucks?/
>

Easy on the invective. Did you pay attention to the specific sequence of
events I described? Or are you simply reporting that Flash works fine as
an ALSA client along other concurrently reporting tasks, with no
reference to the explicit order of the launch of things?

Incidentally, WoW+WINE worked absolutely fine with other ALSA clients.
It was only when Flash got added to the mix--and was launched
first--that I had a problem. Further, if Flash was launched before PA
(and ALSA apps weren't configured to route through PA's alsa wrapper),
PA itself could not latch on to the sound card.

Also, it's possible Adobe has since fixed the bug. This was a couple
years ago, even before they added direct PulseAudio support to flash.
Attachments: signature.asc (0.54 KB)


acm at muc

Apr 18, 2013, 1:31 PM

Post #6 of 94 (1443 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

'evening, Stroller.

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 09:02:36PM +0100, Stroller wrote:

> On 18 April 2013, at 20:32, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > ...
> > (i) It's a "sound server", a description I don't understand. What does
> > it _do_? Why do I want it? It seems to be an unnecessary layer of fat
> > between sound applications and the kernel.

> If you don't understand the term "sound server" you probably shouldn't
> be using Gentoo.

:-)

> When I'm watching a YouTube video I still want to hear my email client
> go bing or my chat program alert me of my buddy coming online.

> That's not possible if my web-browser has a hard-wired path into my
> soundcard and ain't letting go.

Thanks for the explanation, I'm beginning to understand what "sound
server" means. It's a sort of mixer, isn't it?

My email client (over an ssh session) goes bleep via my PC's internal
speaker, which I hear even when the other sound system is being used.

> Stroller.

--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).


volkerarmin at googlemail

Apr 18, 2013, 1:43 PM

Post #7 of 94 (1452 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Am 18.04.2013 22:13, schrieb Michael Mol:
> On 04/18/2013 04:02 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am 18.04.2013 21:48, schrieb Michael Mol:
>>> On 04/18/2013 03:32 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> So, I grasped the nettle, put in a negative pulseaudio use flag, unmerged
>>>> pa and alsa-plugins, then rebuilt the 14 packages which needed it.
>>>>
>>>> Surprisingly, everything still works. I now get those last seconds from
>>>> my news streams. :-)
>>>>
>>>> So, yes, I can recomment the removal of pulseaudio, unless anybody's got
>>>> some particular need for it.
>>> IME, there is one application that all but forces the use of PulseAudio:
>>> Flash. Once Flash grabs onto an ALSA device, it doesn't let go, so you
>>> *must* route it through PA if you would like to reliably use it with
>>> anything else.
>>>
>>> My particular discovery was that if I launched WoW under WINE, and then
>>> launched a browser, audio in WoW worked fine. If I launched the browser
>>> first (which resulted in a flash applet being loaded in GMail for the
>>> purpose of audio notifications for google talk), Flash grabbed the ALSA
>>> device and no WINE application could get at it. Routing both through
>>> PulseAudio solved the problem.
>> /I can have as many flash instances as I want and still listen to stuff
>> being played in vlc. Without pulseaudio crap.
>>
>> Maybe wine just sucks?/
>>
> Easy on the invective. Did you pay attention to the specific sequence of
> events I described? Or are you simply reporting that Flash works fine as
> an ALSA client along other concurrently reporting tasks, with no
> reference to the explicit order of the launch of things?
>
> Incidentally, WoW+WINE worked absolutely fine with other ALSA clients.
> It was only when Flash got added to the mix--and was launched
> first--that I had a problem. Further, if Flash was launched before PA
> (and ALSA apps weren't configured to route through PA's alsa wrapper),
> PA itself could not latch on to the sound card.
>
> Also, it's possible Adobe has since fixed the bug. This was a couple
> years ago, even before they added direct PulseAudio support to flash.

the order is completely irrelavant. I start flash, xine, amarok, vlc,
alsaplayer, whatever - and it just works. Without pulseaudio, jackd,
esd, artsd etc pp.

I don't use wine. For a lot of good reasons.


volkerarmin at googlemail

Apr 18, 2013, 1:47 PM

Post #8 of 94 (1447 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Am 18.04.2013 22:02, schrieb Stroller:
> On 18 April 2013, at 20:32, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>> ...
>> (i) It's a "sound server", a description I don't understand. What does
>> it _do_? Why do I want it? It seems to be an unnecessary layer of fat
>> between sound applications and the kernel.
> If you don't understand the term "sound server" you probably shouldn't be using Gentoo.
>
> When I'm watching a YouTube video I still want to hear my email client go bing or my chat program alert me of my buddy coming online.
>
> That's not possible if my web-browser has a hard-wired path into my soundcard and ain't letting go.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
beeep. Wrong.


mikemol at gmail

Apr 18, 2013, 2:10 PM

Post #9 of 94 (1451 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

On 04/18/2013 04:43 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 18.04.2013 22:13, schrieb Michael Mol:
>> On 04/18/2013 04:02 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Am 18.04.2013 21:48, schrieb Michael Mol:

[snip]

>>>> My particular discovery was that if I launched WoW under WINE, and then
>>>> launched a browser, audio in WoW worked fine. If I launched the browser
>>>> first (which resulted in a flash applet being loaded in GMail for the
>>>> purpose of audio notifications for google talk), Flash grabbed the ALSA
>>>> device and no WINE application could get at it. Routing both through
>>>> PulseAudio solved the problem.
>>> /I can have as many flash instances as I want and still listen to stuff
>>> being played in vlc. Without pulseaudio crap.
>>>
>>> Maybe wine just sucks?/
>>>
>> Easy on the invective. Did you pay attention to the specific sequence of
>> events I described? Or are you simply reporting that Flash works fine as
>> an ALSA client along other concurrently reporting tasks, with no
>> reference to the explicit order of the launch of things?
>>
>> Incidentally, WoW+WINE worked absolutely fine with other ALSA clients.
>> It was only when Flash got added to the mix--and was launched
>> first--that I had a problem. Further, if Flash was launched before PA
>> (and ALSA apps weren't configured to route through PA's alsa wrapper),
>> PA itself could not latch on to the sound card.
>>
>> Also, it's possible Adobe has since fixed the bug. This was a couple
>> years ago, even before they added direct PulseAudio support to flash.
>
> the order is completely irrelavant. I start flash, xine, amarok, vlc,
> alsaplayer, whatever - and it just works. Without pulseaudio, jackd,
> esd, artsd etc pp.

Do you say that because you've tested the various orders and know that
one application will not conflict with another if started before that,
or do you say that because you've never noticed a problem, despite not
knowing the order you've started things?

>
> I don't use wine. For a lot of good reasons.
>

Name one.
Attachments: signature.asc (0.54 KB)


h.figge at gmx

Apr 18, 2013, 2:26 PM

Post #10 of 94 (1427 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Michael Mol:

>My particular discovery was that if I launched WoW under WINE, and then
>launched a browser, audio in WoW worked fine. If I launched the browser
>first (which resulted in a flash applet being loaded in GMail for the
>purpose of audio notifications for google talk), Flash grabbed the ALSA
>device and no WINE application could get at it. Routing both through
>PulseAudio solved the problem.

Mhm. I have now started my SM and loaded the flash
http://fun.from.hell.pl/2003-02-18/volare-karaoke.swf. Then i started
wine playing tcc1, a mod of Might & Magic 6. No problem with the sound.

Shockwave Flash 11.2 r202
wine-1.5.28

No pulseaudio. ;)

Hartmut


mikemol at gmail

Apr 18, 2013, 2:29 PM

Post #11 of 94 (1425 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

On 04/18/2013 05:26 PM, Hartmut Figge wrote:
> Michael Mol:
>
>> My particular discovery was that if I launched WoW under WINE, and then
>> launched a browser, audio in WoW worked fine. If I launched the browser
>> first (which resulted in a flash applet being loaded in GMail for the
>> purpose of audio notifications for google talk), Flash grabbed the ALSA
>> device and no WINE application could get at it. Routing both through
>> PulseAudio solved the problem.
>
> Mhm. I have now started my SM and loaded the flash
> http://fun.from.hell.pl/2003-02-18/volare-karaoke.swf. Then i started
> wine playing tcc1, a mod of Might & Magic 6. No problem with the sound.
>
> Shockwave Flash 11.2 r202
> wine-1.5.28
>
> No pulseaudio. ;)

Sounds like they got that problem fixed, then. That's good.
Attachments: signature.asc (0.54 KB)


volkerarmin at googlemail

Apr 18, 2013, 2:46 PM

Post #12 of 94 (1422 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Am 18.04.2013 23:10, schrieb Michael Mol:
> On 04/18/2013 04:43 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am 18.04.2013 22:13, schrieb Michael Mol:
>>> On 04/18/2013 04:02 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> Am 18.04.2013 21:48, schrieb Michael Mol:
> [snip]
>
>>>>> My particular discovery was that if I launched WoW under WINE, and then
>>>>> launched a browser, audio in WoW worked fine. If I launched the browser
>>>>> first (which resulted in a flash applet being loaded in GMail for the
>>>>> purpose of audio notifications for google talk), Flash grabbed the ALSA
>>>>> device and no WINE application could get at it. Routing both through
>>>>> PulseAudio solved the problem.
>>>> /I can have as many flash instances as I want and still listen to stuff
>>>> being played in vlc. Without pulseaudio crap.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe wine just sucks?/
>>>>
>>> Easy on the invective. Did you pay attention to the specific sequence of
>>> events I described? Or are you simply reporting that Flash works fine as
>>> an ALSA client along other concurrently reporting tasks, with no
>>> reference to the explicit order of the launch of things?
>>>
>>> Incidentally, WoW+WINE worked absolutely fine with other ALSA clients.
>>> It was only when Flash got added to the mix--and was launched
>>> first--that I had a problem. Further, if Flash was launched before PA
>>> (and ALSA apps weren't configured to route through PA's alsa wrapper),
>>> PA itself could not latch on to the sound card.
>>>
>>> Also, it's possible Adobe has since fixed the bug. This was a couple
>>> years ago, even before they added direct PulseAudio support to flash.
>> the order is completely irrelavant. I start flash, xine, amarok, vlc,
>> alsaplayer, whatever - and it just works. Without pulseaudio, jackd,
>> esd, artsd etc pp.
> Do you say that because you've tested the various orders and know that
> one application will not conflict with another if started before that,
> or do you say that because you've never noticed a problem, despite not
> knowing the order you've started things?

because I am using linux since Suse 6.2. And in that time I have
listened to a lot of music, watched a lot of movies and did a lot of
things in parallel. Just yesterday I watched a music video on youtube,
while hunting for something sounding almost identical on my harddisk -
using vlc. So firefox&flash and vlc were working fine.

>
>> I don't use wine. For a lot of good reasons.
>>
> Name one.
>
fat, slow and buggy. Do you need more? If I really had an application
that I must use and is windows only - I would install windows. That is a
lot quicker and less painful than that wine crapfest shitting all over
the place.


mikemol at gmail

Apr 18, 2013, 3:02 PM

Post #13 of 94 (1427 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

On 04/18/2013 05:46 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 18.04.2013 23:10, schrieb Michael Mol:

[snip]

>> Do you say that because you've tested the various orders and know
>> that one application will not conflict with another if started
>> before that, or do you say that because you've never noticed a
>> problem, despite not knowing the order you've started things?
>
> because I am using linux since Suse 6.2. And in that time I have
> listened to a lot of music, watched a lot of movies and did a lot of
> things in parallel. Just yesterday I watched a music video on
> youtube, while hunting for something sounding almost identical on my
> harddisk - using vlc. So firefox&flash and vlc were working fine.

I know you're smarter than this. You actively ignored my explicit
description of a testable sequence of steps. Which Hartmut specifically
tried, and in doing so that the problem I encountered is not currently
present.

By ignoring the sequence of steps, you're left with, well, nothing
testable or verifiable.

>
>>
>>> I don't use wine. For a lot of good reasons.
>>>
>> Name one.
>>
> fat, slow and buggy. Do you need more?

Not from you, I suspect. At this point, I'm confident you have
absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

By "fat", I suppose you're referring to the number of additional
binaries that land on your system. If you're going to implement the
entire API of an operating system, even as a wrapper around native
libraries, you're going to have a lot of code. That's just the way it is.

As for "slow"...it's been documented from time to time that some
applications run *faster* via WINE than on Windows. On one occasion,
this was the result of the Linux drivers being faster than the Windows ones.

As for "buggy"...Sure, not all of the APIs are implemented. Not all of
them need to be. Bugfixes and such are prioritized by interest in the
applications which need the buggy APIs, which is why many applications
work fine. Heck, I have an application installed which *depends* on
WINE, and this is part of that application's "Linux" version. I use it
every day as part of my job, and so I can do my job from this laptop
running Gentoo instead of a machine running Windows.

> If I really had an application that I must use and is windows only -
> I would install windows. That is a lot quicker and less painful than
> that wine crapfest shitting all over the place.

...The worst I've had has been WINE apps getting registered to handle
some files. Unless you're referring to the idea that WINE was what was
breaking my sound (itself clearly erroneous if you had read through the
description of either my or Hartmut's steps), I really don't know what
you're talking about, and I fear I'm just feeding a troll.
Attachments: signature.asc (0.54 KB)


ma1l1ists at yahoo

Apr 18, 2013, 3:57 PM

Post #14 of 94 (1418 views)
Permalink
Re: [Bulk] Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

> >> I don't use wine. For a lot of good reasons.
> >>
> > Name one.
> >
> fat, slow and buggy. Do you need more? If I really had an application
> that I must use and is windows only - I would install windows. That
> is a lot quicker and less painful than that wine crapfest shitting
> all over the place.

I agree with a lot of good reasons primarily around security but I have
to say I don't agree with this.

Wine is far faster that Virtualbox or rebooting.

Take adding bookmarks to pdfs which I sorted out yesterday. Install
foxit on windows copy the directory to wine (install failed for me) and
bang, sorted.

Perhaps the latest poppler and okular can do bookmarks properly now?
but there are other commercial apps required thankfully falling one by
one.

--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________


alan.mckinnon at gmail

Apr 19, 2013, 12:28 AM

Post #15 of 94 (1406 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

On 18/04/2013 21:32, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
>
> I've just removed pulseaudio from my main Gentoo system. Why? Several
> reasons:
>
> (i) It's a "sound server", a description I don't understand. What does
> it _do_? Why do I want it? It seems to be an unnecessary layer of fat
> between sound applications and the kernel.

Ah yes, pulseaudio. The software that seems to solve a problem that does
not exist but actually does and which few people understand.

Expressed in conceptual black box terms, pulse audio is an effort to
deal with this scenario:

On a modern personal computing device, you have:

1. many input audio sources
2. many output audio sinks
3. many requirements for what happens in the middle

Audio apps tend to not be aware of the environment they run in, and not
be aware of what you want to happen with the sound. A bluetooth app has
no real way of knowing you want incoming phone calls to be sent to a
headset, to use the laptop's built-in mic and run the whole lot through
an audio filter to account for impaired hearing (i.e. boost the middle
frequencies). All whilst Amarok continues to play mp3s on speakers in
the next room.

True, that sounds contrived, but audio just works like that - consider
all the combinations you have on the sound system in your living room.

Trying to get apps to deal with this is an impossible task, so enter
pulseaudio. It knows about sources and sinks and has a config file so
that it can sit in the middle as a fat layer and apply this intelligence.

If you need it, PA can be great. Not everyone needs or wants it, many
people are quite content to just carry on as they always did and aren't
fazed with minor niggles about their audio. You seem to fall in this
category, so do many others.

Feel free to remove PA if you don't need it. I really don't see any
scope for Lennart to make all of alsa redundant anytime soon (unlike
udev...)


>
> (ii) I was having problems with the last 1-2 seconds being cut off audio
> streams from news sites.
>
> (iii) The provenance of the code; it's author is also udev's maintainer,
> the udev that has given most of us so much fun over the months. When
> might awkwardnesses start appearing in pulseaudio?
>
> By the way, I run sound stuff mainly in Gnome 2, using aqualung to play
> CDs and listening to audio files streamed or downloaded from the net.
>
> So, I grasped the nettle, put in a negative pulseaudio use flag, unmerged
> pa and alsa-plugins, then rebuilt the 14 packages which needed it.
>
> Surprisingly, everything still works. I now get those last seconds from
> my news streams. :-)
>
> So, yes, I can recomment the removal of pulseaudio, unless anybody's got
> some particular need for it.
>


--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon [at] gmail


ma1l1ists at yahoo

Apr 19, 2013, 1:49 AM

Post #16 of 94 (1406 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

> Feel free to remove PA if you don't need it. I really don't see any
> scope for Lennart to make all of alsa redundant anytime soon (unlike
> udev...)

Of course from many threads from a pro audio user called Ralf, Gentoo
users and so a fraction of Linux users are the only ones lucky enough
to be able to do that *easily* whilst keeping packages they want,
especially Gnome ones!

--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________


the.guard at mail

Apr 19, 2013, 2:53 AM

Post #17 of 94 (1404 views)
Permalink
Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Sound started working in Counter-Strike 1.6 only after i installed PA


caneko at gmail

Apr 19, 2013, 6:43 AM

Post #18 of 94 (1402 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Alan Mackenzie <acm [at] muc> wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
>
> I've just removed pulseaudio from my main Gentoo system. Why? Several
> reasons:
>
> (i) It's a "sound server", a description I don't understand. What does
> it _do_? Why do I want it? It seems to be an unnecessary layer of fat
> between sound applications and the kernel.

Take a look at this:

https://plus.google.com/photos/115256116066287398549/albums/5778609034682831121/5778849461325756466

That's me selecting with a click of the mouse if I want to use Skype
with the analog speakers from my laptop, or with my bluetooth headset.
Of course, the BT headset doesn't appear in the combo box until they
are actually connected; my USB speakers don't show up there because
they weren't connected.

With PA, I can switch soundcards for programs individually, without
the program in questing noticing at all: you have your sound coming
from the laptop speakers, and after selecting my BT headset, the sound
starts coming out from them, all instantaneously. No config files
editing required, everything "just works".

And of course all the other sound applications just keep working, and
the sound for them it's routed to the laptop speakers, but I can also
change them on the fly to go to my BT headset, or my USB speakers, or
even other machines using PA connected in my LAN (with proper
permissions).

You can probably do all of this without PA, but it will require to
edit $HOME/.asoundrc, and files under /etc/bluetooth/, and probably
testing different configurations for permissions, and...

And I just don't care. PA just works, in all my machines and media
center. And it's all very nicely integrated with GNOME and it just
works with a couple clicks from my mouse (if at all).

So if you don't need it, good for you that you can remove PA from your
system. For the *general case* (not necessarily the *most used*, but
the one that covers the *most* use cases), PA is the best solution
available. And all the distributions seems to agree on that.

Regards.
--
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México


wireless at tampabay

Apr 19, 2013, 8:28 AM

Post #19 of 94 (1403 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko <at> gmail.com> writes:


>
https://plus.google.com/photos/115256116066287398549/
albums/5778609034682831121/5778849461325756466

>
> And I just don't care. PA just works, in all my machines and media
> center. And it's all very nicely integrated with GNOME and it just
> works with a couple clicks from my mouse (if at all).


What about KDE? I do not see a gui interface for pulseaudio?

I did find the files under /etc/pulse.

A gui interface to pulseAudio for KDE?


Another question. Can the installation of PulseAudio and Jack
coexist? Doable or a constant nightmare?

curiously,
James


spray.sucks at gmail

Apr 19, 2013, 9:16 AM

Post #20 of 94 (1408 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

2013/4/19 James <wireless [at] tampabay>:
> Canek Pelez Valds <caneko <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
> Another question. Can the installation of PulseAudio and Jack
> coexist? Doable or a constant nightmare?
>
Yes, they sure can coexist. I haven't found it completely optimal
always, but here is some info.

I currently run both PA and JACK side by side, but on different sound
cards. However, I can get PA to send audio into JACK and vice versa by
manually starting JACK through QJackCtl; the PA plugin is not
initialized otherwise. This works fine but it can be a little CPU
hungry if I have many inputs/outputs.

As I mentioned, PA is running "on top of" JACK. I do not know if the
opposite is as easy (haven't yet tested), but I guess you could just
start JACK with the "dummy" driver and let the PA plugin do the trick.

Also, make sure PA does not take over the card you want to use with
JACK. Otherwise JACK will complain. It can be disabled through
pavucontrol.

Kind regards,
Karl


ma1l1ists at yahoo

Apr 19, 2013, 9:20 AM

Post #21 of 94 (1406 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

> Another question. Can the installation of PulseAudio and Jack
> coexist? Doable or a constant nightmare?

There seems to be a a package to allow pulse to utilise jack. However
if you are using jack for the high quality audio benefit then
apparently you have to kill pulseaudio even if it means making a dummy
package on binary distros to fool the system into thinking it is
installed and so not removing lots.

I suggested he use Gentoo but I think he saw it as too much work.

--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________


wireless at tampabay

Apr 19, 2013, 9:44 AM

Post #22 of 94 (1401 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Kevin Chadwick <ma1l1ists <at> yahoo.co.uk> writes:

>
> > Another question. Can the installation of PulseAudio and Jack
> > coexist? Doable or a constant nightmare?
>
> There seems to be a a package to allow pulse to utilise jack. However
> if you are using jack for the high quality audio benefit then
> apparently you have to kill pulseaudio even if it means making a dummy
> package on binary distros to fool the system into thinking it is
> installed and so not removing lots.

What I suspected.... timing (latency) increases that from my
experiments are sporadic and too unpredictable. jack alone
works best.


> I suggested he use Gentoo but I think he saw it as too much work.

(comment for me?)
All I use is gentoo or embedded (state machines) on embeddded hardware. My
target is jack on embedded gentoo, but, I've run into resource limitations,
so I'm waiting on my new Arm15 dev board in May.....

Thanks,
James


ma1l1ists at yahoo

Apr 19, 2013, 9:55 AM

Post #23 of 94 (1402 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

> > I suggested he use Gentoo but I think he saw it as too much work.
>
> (comment for me?)
> All I use is gentoo or embedded (state machines) on embeddded hardware. My
> target is jack on embedded gentoo, but, I've run into resource limitations,
> so I'm waiting on my new Arm15 dev board in May.....

> > > > Feel free to remove PA if you don't need it. I really don't see any
> > > > scope for Lennart to make all of alsa redundant anytime soon (unlike
> > > > udev...)

>>> Of course from many threads from a pro audio user called Ralf, Gentoo
>>> users and so a fraction of Linux users are the only ones lucky enough
>>> to be able to do that *easily* whilst keeping packages they want,
>>> especially Gnome ones!

Ralf, Sorry. I should be more careful in what I write but I am in the
middle of a few things.

--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________


volkerarmin at googlemail

Apr 19, 2013, 1:34 PM

Post #24 of 94 (1400 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Am 19.04.2013 00:02, schrieb Michael Mol:
> On 04/18/2013 05:46 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am 18.04.2013 23:10, schrieb Michael Mol:
> [snip]
>
>>> Do you say that because you've tested the various orders and know
>>> that one application will not conflict with another if started
>>> before that, or do you say that because you've never noticed a
>>> problem, despite not knowing the order you've started things?
>> because I am using linux since Suse 6.2. And in that time I have
>> listened to a lot of music, watched a lot of movies and did a lot of
>> things in parallel. Just yesterday I watched a music video on
>> youtube, while hunting for something sounding almost identical on my
>> harddisk - using vlc. So firefox&flash and vlc were working fine.
> I know you're smarter than this. You actively ignored my explicit
> description of a testable sequence of steps. Which Hartmut specifically
> tried, and in doing so that the problem I encountered is not currently
> present.
>
> By ignoring the sequence of steps, you're left with, well, nothing
> testable or verifiable.

I have answered your none-question. I am using a wide range of
applications (firefox&flash, chromium, vlc, mplayer, alsaplayer etc pp)
a lot of them at the same time, starting in different orders AND I NEVER
HAD A PROBLEM. It does not matter if flash starts first, then vlc then
alsaplayer then mplayer or chromium first, then xine then firefox. IT
JUST WORKS.

The only thing missing is wine. Hmm... maybe it IS wine? But why using a
broken-by-design sounddaemon to paper over wine bugs, if there are a
couple of easy ways to solve the problem once and for all? Without
introducing lag and additional bugs. ie - fix wine. Or don't use it in
the first place.

>>>> I don't use wine. For a lot of good reasons.
>>>>
>>> Name one.
>>>
>> fat, slow and buggy. Do you need more?
> Not from you, I suspect. At this point, I'm confident you have
> absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
>
> By "fat", I suppose you're referring to the number of additional
> binaries that land on your system. If you're going to implement the
> entire API of an operating system, even as a wrapper around native
> libraries, you're going to have a lot of code. That's just the way it is.

No, by fat I mean its absolute humongous size. The crap its vomits into
my $HOME adds just insult to injury.

>
> As for "slow"...it's been documented from time to time that some
> applications run *faster* via WINE than on Windows. On one occasion,
> this was the result of the Linux drivers being faster than the Windows ones.

well, from time to time I try wine with this and that app. Speed?
Abysmal - if the app works at all.

Btw, who is doing that 'documentation'? Phoronix?

>
> As for "buggy"...Sure, not all of the APIs are implemented. Not all of
> them need to be. Bugfixes and such are prioritized by interest in the
> applications which need the buggy APIs, which is why many applications
> work fine. Heck, I have an application installed which *depends* on
> WINE, and this is part of that application's "Linux" version. I use it
> every day as part of my job, and so I can do my job from this laptop
> running Gentoo instead of a machine running Windows.

great for you. AT WORK I just use the XP box to do windows jobs. At the
end it is so much easier.
>
>> If I really had an application that I must use and is windows only -
>> I would install windows. That is a lot quicker and less painful than
>> that wine crapfest shitting all over the place.
> ...The worst I've had has been WINE apps getting registered to handle
> some files. Unless you're referring to the idea that WINE was what was
> breaking my sound (itself clearly erroneous if you had read through the
> description of either my or Hartmut's steps), I really don't know what
> you're talking about, and I fear I'm just feeding a troll.

And I am afraid that you are just talking because you like the sound of
your voice. What was your point again?


lists at xunil

Apr 19, 2013, 1:36 PM

Post #25 of 94 (1399 views)
Permalink
Re: Removing pulseaudio [In reply to]

Am 19.04.2013 15:43, schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:

> Take a look at this:
>
> https://plus.google.com/photos/115256116066287398549/albums/5778609034682831121/5778849461325756466
>
> That's me selecting with a click of the mouse if I want to use Skype
> with the analog speakers from my laptop, or with my bluetooth headset.
> Of course, the BT headset doesn't appear in the combo box until they
> are actually connected; my USB speakers don't show up there because
> they weren't connected.

Yeah, I get the picture ... but:

I never got my BT-headset working with Skype correctly.

Either the sound was OK and the mic didn't work or the sound was crappy
and the mic *seemed* to work (looking at the graphs) but I never heard
my recorded voice in the Skype Test Call.

OK, maybe that's a skype-issue and not PA-related ... anyway.

Annoying.

S

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