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Are those "green" drives any good?

 

 

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rdalek1967 at gmail

May 9, 2012, 1:47 AM

Post #1 of 51 (2102 views)
Permalink
Are those "green" drives any good?

Hi,

As some know, I'm planning to buy me a LARGE hard drive to put all my
videos on, eventually. The prices are coming down now. I keep seeing
these "green" drives that are made by just about every company nowadays.
When comparing them to a non "green" drive, do they hold up as good?
Are they as dependable as a plain drive? I guess they are more
efficient and I get that but do they break quicker, more often or no
difference?

I have noticed that they tend to spin slower and are cheaper. That much
I have figured out. Other than that, I can't see any other difference.
Data speeds seem to be about the same.

Please, no brand wars. I may get a WD, Maxtor, Samsung or some other
brand. I haven't picked that part yet. So far, I have had good luck
with drives. I think I have one doorstop so far. I have at least one
of each of the brands above too. Don't jinx me. I'm sure someone has a
horror story about some brand.

Thanks much.

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"


alan.mckinnon at gmail

May 9, 2012, 2:25 AM

Post #2 of 51 (2069 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, 09 May 2012 03:47:09 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As some know, I'm planning to buy me a LARGE hard drive to put all my
> videos on, eventually. The prices are coming down now. I keep seeing
> these "green" drives that are made by just about every company
> nowadays. When comparing them to a non "green" drive, do they hold up
> as good? Are they as dependable as a plain drive? I guess they are
> more efficient and I get that but do they break quicker, more often
> or no difference?
>
> I have noticed that they tend to spin slower and are cheaper. That
> much I have figured out. Other than that, I can't see any other
> difference. Data speeds seem to be about the same.
>
> Please, no brand wars. I may get a WD, Maxtor, Samsung or some other
> brand. I haven't picked that part yet. So far, I have had good luck
> with drives. I think I have one doorstop so far. I have at least one
> of each of the brands above too. Don't jinx me. I'm sure someone
> has a horror story about some brand.


Green drives are basically just low power drives. It's a branding
gimmick. Like you noticed already, they tend to spin slower (uses less
power).

I stuck 4 of them in my media server for 12TB of cheap storage. And
they are silent. I can barely hear them running even when I'm sitting
next to the server and the kids are running the telly full tilt :-)

I haven't heard any mention from anyone at all that they are less
reliable in any way. I'd expect them to be more reliable than
super-fast drives because they are lower power, but drive models have
so many things affecting reliability it's hard to tell.

One thing we have noticed is that Samsung's recent model are not very
"green", they spin up slowly, use lots of power and make a racket when
spinning. But they do work.



--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon [at] gmail


rdalek1967 at gmail

May 9, 2012, 2:52 AM

Post #3 of 51 (2066 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wed, 09 May 2012 03:47:09 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> As some know, I'm planning to buy me a LARGE hard drive to put all my
>> videos on, eventually. The prices are coming down now. I keep seeing
>> these "green" drives that are made by just about every company
>> nowadays. When comparing them to a non "green" drive, do they hold up
>> as good? Are they as dependable as a plain drive? I guess they are
>> more efficient and I get that but do they break quicker, more often
>> or no difference?
>>
>> I have noticed that they tend to spin slower and are cheaper. That
>> much I have figured out. Other than that, I can't see any other
>> difference. Data speeds seem to be about the same.
>>
>> Please, no brand wars. I may get a WD, Maxtor, Samsung or some other
>> brand. I haven't picked that part yet. So far, I have had good luck
>> with drives. I think I have one doorstop so far. I have at least one
>> of each of the brands above too. Don't jinx me. I'm sure someone
>> has a horror story about some brand.
>
>
> Green drives are basically just low power drives. It's a branding
> gimmick. Like you noticed already, they tend to spin slower (uses less
> power).
>
> I stuck 4 of them in my media server for 12TB of cheap storage. And
> they are silent. I can barely hear them running even when I'm sitting
> next to the server and the kids are running the telly full tilt :-)
>
> I haven't heard any mention from anyone at all that they are less
> reliable in any way. I'd expect them to be more reliable than
> super-fast drives because they are lower power, but drive models have
> so many things affecting reliability it's hard to tell.
>
> One thing we have noticed is that Samsung's recent model are not very
> "green", they spin up slowly, use lots of power and make a racket when
> spinning. But they do work.
>

I was thinking the same thing about the speed and them lasting longer
because of the slower speed. I mean, it's less wear and less heat. I'd
just hate to buy one and it be a piece of junk or something else I
wasn't expecting to be wrong. I wish I could afford server grade.
Weeeeee!!

I'm going to give this a shot. It's not like the OS is on it and I will
be putting a lot of wear on it or be making those heads sing. It's just
going to store videos, music and other stuff. I plan to set it up with
LVM and put /home on it. Then I'm going to get rid of this legacy /data
directory I have been carrying around for the past 7 or 8 years. Just
put it all in /home where it should have been to begin with.

I also forgot to mention, this rig runs 24/7 for the most part. It's
usually only off when the power has failed and my UPS is a bit low.
I'll be glad when they get our new wires ran for power. They been
working on it for at least a month. It's ONLY 12 miles or so. ;-)
They are replacing poles, wires, hardware and everything. I been here
for 40 years, I have never seen them replace all this. Bad thing is,
the lights go out when they do a major switch over. I bet the lines
won't be breaking so much when this is done, at least not until some nut
wrecks and hits the stinking pole. :/

Thanks for the info. At least I know it won't be junk. lol

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"


daniel at admin-box

May 9, 2012, 4:32 AM

Post #4 of 51 (2060 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

I'm using big WD Caviar Green (WDxxEAxx) SATA HDDs for some years now in
my home 24/7 server, and haven't had any issues - they run cool and
low-noise, and the performance is good. Low power and heat was what was
important for me when choosing. HDD performance isn't an issue anyway,
when storing media files over a home network :)


tanstaafl at libertytrek

May 9, 2012, 4:47 AM

Post #5 of 51 (2057 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On 2012-05-09 4:47 AM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
> As some know, I'm planning to buy me a LARGE hard drive to put all my
> videos on, eventually. The prices are coming down now. I keep seeing
> these "green" drives that are made by just about every company nowadays.
> When comparing them to a non "green" drive, do they hold up as good?

As long as you don't use them in any kind of RAID setup you they should
be fine.

The biggest difference between them and 'enterprise' class drives is the
enterprise class drives are designed for multi-drive RAID setups... you
don't want drives to spin down independently when working in a RAID setup...


rdalek1967 at gmail

May 9, 2012, 4:51 AM

Post #6 of 51 (2057 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

Daniel Troeder wrote:
> I'm using big WD Caviar Green (WDxxEAxx) SATA HDDs for some years now in
> my home 24/7 server, and haven't had any issues - they run cool and
> low-noise, and the performance is good. Low power and heat was what was
> important for me when choosing. HDD performance isn't an issue anyway,
> when storing media files over a home network :)
>
>



Sounds like these drives are going to be OK then. My concern was that
they would be made "cheaper" and not be as reliable but it seems folks
are happy with them which is good.

I like WD drives. The one drive I have had fail was a WD. I have a few
of them so maybe it is just a bad apple or is it a lemon? Anyway.

I'm getting quite a collection of videos and stuff. I'm thinking 2Tb or
3Tb. The 3Tb is more expensive but it will take longer to fill it up.
Decisions. Decisions. Maybe newegg will have a BIG sale soon.

While on the thread. Has anyone had any sort of luck with the
recertified drives? I see them sometimes and wonder what the deal is.
Are they repaired drives or just returned drives? Anyone have any
experience, good or bad, with those?

Thanks for the replies. Sounds good so far.

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"


mike at trausch

May 9, 2012, 5:06 AM

Post #7 of 51 (2077 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On 05/09/2012 07:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> As long as you don't use them in any kind of RAID setup you they should
> be fine.
>
> The biggest difference between them and 'enterprise' class drives is the
> enterprise class drives are designed for multi-drive RAID setups... you
> don't want drives to spin down independently when working in a RAID
> setup...

AFAIK, the only technical difference between a consumer drive and an
enterprise one is that the enterprise one doesn't tell lies. Or at
least, it isn't supposed to.

Consumer drives will acknowledge writes before they have hit the
platter, even if the cache is disabled on the drive (and some consumer
drives do not even allow the cache to be disabled).

The only scenario this seriously guards against is unexpected power
loss, where the drive has told the OS that the data has been written to
disk, but it is somewhere in-between (e.g., on cache, but not on the
platter) and then the power is disconnected from the unit (specifically,
the drive itself). Even an unexpected reboot from the computer won't
affect this, unless the computer removes power to the device during
early boot (and on x86 systems, that is a virtual impossibility).

--- Mike

--
A man who reasons deliberately, manages it better after studying Logic
than he could before, if he is sincere about it and has common sense.
--- Carveth Read, ďLogicĒ
Attachments: signature.asc (0.71 KB)


markknecht at gmail

May 9, 2012, 5:29 AM

Post #8 of 51 (2077 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 4:47 AM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl [at] libertytrek> wrote:
> On 2012-05-09 4:47 AM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>> As some know, I'm planning to buy me a LARGE hard drive to put all my
>> videos on, eventually.  The prices are coming down now.  I keep seeing
>> these "green" drives that are made by just about every company nowadays.
>>  When comparing them to a non "green" drive, do they hold up as good?
>
>
> As long as you don't use them in any kind of RAID setup you they should be
> fine.
>
> The biggest difference between them and 'enterprise' class drives is the
> enterprise class drives are designed for multi-drive RAID setups... you
> don't want drives to spin down independently when working in a RAID setup...
>

+1

I use the WD 1TB Green drive for storing video outside my machine
using both USB & eSATA. Works fine. Very quite, cool. Way faster than
necessary for streaming movies. Nice.

As for RAID, +100 to not use them. The WD Green drives do not support
time-limited error recovery (TLER) and spin down based on their view
of trying to save power. For me anyway they simply didn't work well in
any RAID configuration. I switched my home compute server to
Enterprise drives which have worked perfectly for 2+ years.

HTH,
Mark


volkerarmin at googlemail

May 9, 2012, 6:15 AM

Post #9 of 51 (2077 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2012, 03:47:09 schrieb Dale:
> Hi,
>
> As some know, I'm planning to buy me a LARGE hard drive to put all my
> videos on, eventually. The prices are coming down now. I keep seeing
> these "green" drives that are made by just about every company nowadays.
> When comparing them to a non "green" drive, do they hold up as good?
> Are they as dependable as a plain drive? I guess they are more
> efficient and I get that but do they break quicker, more often or no
> difference?
>
> I have noticed that they tend to spin slower and are cheaper. That much
> I have figured out. Other than that, I can't see any other difference.
> Data speeds seem to be about the same.
>
> Please, no brand wars. I may get a WD, Maxtor, Samsung or some other
> brand. I haven't picked that part yet. So far, I have had good luck
> with drives. I think I have one doorstop so far. I have at least one
> of each of the brands above too. Don't jinx me. I'm sure someone has a
> horror story about some brand.
>
> Thanks much.
>
> Dale
>
> :-) :-)

samsung here. Put that beast into an esata case. Sometimes I forget to turn it
off, because it is so silent. And cool. The others should be similar. They are
slower, yes, but fast enough to watch video.

7200 for stuff that needs some speed.
5400 for video and backups.

just fine.

--
#163933


tanstaafl at libertytrek

May 9, 2012, 6:30 AM

Post #10 of 51 (2059 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On 2012-05-09 8:06 AM, mike [at] trausch <mike [at] trausch> wrote:
> AFAIK, the only technical difference between a consumer drive and an
> enterprise one is that the enterprise one doesn't tell lies. Or at
> least, it isn't supposed to.

There's a bit more to it than that...

http://download.intel.com/support/motherboards/server/sb/enterprise_class_versus_desktop_class_hard_drives_.pdf


pandu at poluan

May 9, 2012, 9:39 AM

Post #11 of 51 (2055 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On May 9, 2012 7:36 PM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> As for RAID, +100 to not use them. The WD Green drives do not support
> time-limited error recovery (TLER) and spin down based on their view
> of trying to save power. For me anyway they simply didn't work well in
> any RAID configuration. I switched my home compute server to
> Enterprise drives which have worked perfectly for 2+ years.
>

I can understand how 'green' drives can fcuk up hardware RAID arrays.

But what about software RAID, e.g., dmraid? Can't we just configure it to
be 'more forgiving'?

Rgds,


markknecht at gmail

May 9, 2012, 10:28 AM

Post #12 of 51 (2050 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Pandu Poluan <pandu [at] poluan> wrote:
>
> On May 9, 2012 7:36 PM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>> As for RAID, +100 to not use them. The WD Green drives do not support
>> time-limited error recovery (TLER) and spin down based on their view
>> of trying to save power. For me anyway they simply didn't work well in
>> any RAID configuration. I switched my home compute server to
>> Enterprise drives which have worked perfectly for 2+ years.
>>
>
> I can understand how 'green' drives can fcuk up hardware RAID arrays.
>
> But what about software RAID, e.g., dmraid? Can't we just configure it to be
> 'more forgiving'?
>
> Rgds,

Possibly. Someone with more experience with mdadm probably could do a
better job but I'd never done RAID of any type at that time (I'm just
a home user who taught myself whatever little I know about Linux
through this list) and built this server with 5 drives to run a number
of Windows VMs so I was pretty sure I wanted RAID. I bought the WD
Green 1TB drives a little over 2 years ago and had multiple problems.
First problem was the 4K sector size issue which was fairly new at
that time, and then once I got past that I tried RAID and it still
didn't work well at all.

The best answer at the time was some piece of low level software from
WD called something like wdtwiddle or something silly as I remember it
but I decided to cut my storage in half and replaced the 1TB Green
drives with 500GB Enterprise drives.

Since then I've heard of people using Green drives for RAID and doing
fine but it didn't work with the ones I purchased.

- Mark


paul.hartman+gentoo at gmail

May 9, 2012, 11:42 AM

Post #13 of 51 (2057 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht [at] gmail> wrote:
> The best answer at the time was some piece of low level software from
> WD called something like wdtwiddle or something

WDTLER :)


markknecht at gmail

May 9, 2012, 11:53 AM

Post #14 of 51 (2054 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Paul Hartman
<paul.hartman+gentoo [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht [at] gmail> wrote:
>> The best answer at the time was some piece of low level software from
>> WD called something like wdtwiddle or something
>
> WDTLER  :)
>

Hey, I wasn't that far off! ;-)


alan.mckinnon at gmail

May 9, 2012, 2:28 PM

Post #15 of 51 (2059 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, 09 May 2012 04:52:57 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:

> I was thinking the same thing about the speed and them lasting longer
> because of the slower speed. I mean, it's less wear and less heat.
> I'd just hate to buy one and it be a piece of junk or something else I
> wasn't expecting to be wrong. I wish I could afford server grade.
> Weeeeee!!

My thoughts these days is that nobody really makes a bad drive anymore.
Like cars[1], they're all good and do what it says on the box. Same
with bikes[2].

A manufacturer may have some bad luck and a product range is less than
perfect, but even that is quite rare and most stuff ups can be fixed
with new firmware. So it's all good.

For video, I would advise you invest in gobs and gobs of RAM (the stuff
is dirt cheap these days). Have more RAM than the biggest video you
will watch (so go for 8G minimum) and the entire video will fit in
memory = read the disc once and watch.

Funny lags in video just go away. That's what I did with my HP
MicroServers - maxed out the RAM to 8G and bought 4 x 3T WD 5400
drives. It runs FreeNAS (built on FreeBSD) with ZFS = shove the drives
in and let them software figure out what the blazes to do. Over the
years I've gotten sick and tired of pampering with disk arrays and
treating them like fragile china that must be molly-coddled. What I
want is lots of storage that will mail me when it detects issues.

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon [at] gmail


rdalek1967 at gmail

May 9, 2012, 3:24 PM

Post #16 of 51 (2052 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wed, 09 May 2012 04:52:57 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> I was thinking the same thing about the speed and them lasting longer
>> because of the slower speed. I mean, it's less wear and less heat.
>> I'd just hate to buy one and it be a piece of junk or something else I
>> wasn't expecting to be wrong. I wish I could afford server grade.
>> Weeeeee!!
>
> My thoughts these days is that nobody really makes a bad drive anymore.
> Like cars[1], they're all good and do what it says on the box. Same
> with bikes[2].
>
> A manufacturer may have some bad luck and a product range is less than
> perfect, but even that is quite rare and most stuff ups can be fixed
> with new firmware. So it's all good.


That's my thoughts too. It doesn't matter what brand you go with, they
all have some sort of failure at some point. They are not built to last
forever and there is always the random failure, even when a week old.
It's usually the loss of important data and not having a backup that
makes it sooooo bad. I'm not real picky on brand as long as it is a
company I have heard of.

Now if someone posts that there is a bad design for some set of drives,
I would avoid that. If there are people that have a unusual high
failure rate then maybe an exception to the rule is needed. That's rare
tho. Anyone want to buy a Yugo for full price? lol I wouldn't.


>
> For video, I would advise you invest in gobs and gobs of RAM (the stuff
> is dirt cheap these days). Have more RAM than the biggest video you
> will watch (so go for 8G minimum) and the entire video will fit in
> memory = read the disc once and watch.
>
> Funny lags in video just go away. That's what I did with my HP
> MicroServers - maxed out the RAM to 8G and bought 4 x 3T WD 5400
> drives. It runs FreeNAS (built on FreeBSD) with ZFS = shove the drives
> in and let them software figure out what the blazes to do. Over the
> years I've gotten sick and tired of pampering with disk arrays and
> treating them like fragile china that must be molly-coddled. What I
> want is lots of storage that will mail me when it detects issues.
>


I got that beat a long time ago. I started out with 4Gbs originally. I
found out that a 64 bit OS uses a bit more memory so, I got another
4Gbs. Then newegg had a sale on a pair of 4gb sticks and I got them.
I'm at 16Gbs right now. I need to ramp up drive space to match up with
my memory space. I'm maxed out on ram but I got SATA ports that are
empty. We can't have that can we? lol

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"


rdalek1967 at gmail

May 9, 2012, 3:37 PM

Post #17 of 51 (2043 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2012, 03:47:09 schrieb Dale:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As some know, I'm planning to buy me a LARGE hard drive to put all my
>> videos on, eventually. The prices are coming down now. I keep seeing
>> these "green" drives that are made by just about every company nowadays.
>> When comparing them to a non "green" drive, do they hold up as good?
>> Are they as dependable as a plain drive? I guess they are more
>> efficient and I get that but do they break quicker, more often or no
>> difference?
>>
>> I have noticed that they tend to spin slower and are cheaper. That much
>> I have figured out. Other than that, I can't see any other difference.
>> Data speeds seem to be about the same.
>>
>> Please, no brand wars. I may get a WD, Maxtor, Samsung or some other
>> brand. I haven't picked that part yet. So far, I have had good luck
>> with drives. I think I have one doorstop so far. I have at least one
>> of each of the brands above too. Don't jinx me. I'm sure someone has a
>> horror story about some brand.
>>
>> Thanks much.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-) :-)
>
> samsung here. Put that beast into an esata case. Sometimes I forget to turn it
> off, because it is so silent. And cool. The others should be similar. They are
> slower, yes, but fast enough to watch video.
>
> 7200 for stuff that needs some speed.
> 5400 for video and backups.
>
> just fine.
>


My videos and such is on a Samsung 750Gb drive now. I'm pretty sure it
is a 7200rpm drive tho. My whole system is quiet. I have a Cooler
Master HAF-932 case with those LARGE fans and you can't hear anything.
Even if I cut everything else off in this room, I can't hear the system
at all. Let's keep in mind that I am getting older tho. ;-)

One reason I am considering the green drives is that I can buy a larger
drive for about the same price. I use LVM so I added a 250Gb drive to
the 750Gb to get 1Tb. Thing is, I'll have that full to before to long.
I need to go ahead and get a large drive. Even a 2Tb drive will be
about half full if I transfer it all over. Of course I'm keeping the
750Gb to tho. Here is where I am with all drives in use.

/dev/mapper/data-data1 923G 619G 297G 68% /data

I start looking when I get to about 70% and by 85%, I want some hardware
or a plan to move things around or something.

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"


paul.hartman+gentoo at gmail

May 9, 2012, 3:48 PM

Post #18 of 51 (2049 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
> †It doesn't matter what brand you go with

Especially true since there are only 2 companies actually making
consumer hard drives anymore: WD and Seagate. Both of them seem to
know what they are doing, for the most part...

Some hard drives fail at the beginning of their life. All hard drives
fail at the end of their life. :)


markknecht at gmail

May 9, 2012, 4:37 PM

Post #19 of 51 (2049 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
<SNIP>
>> My thoughts these days is that nobody really makes a bad drive anymore.
>> Like cars[1], they're all good and do what it says on the box. Same
>> with bikes[2].
>>
>> A manufacturer may have some bad luck and a product range is less than
>> perfect, but even that is quite rare and most stuff ups can be fixed
>> with new firmware. So it's all good.
>
>
> That's my thoughts too.  It doesn't matter what brand you go with, they
> all have some sort of failure at some point.  They are not built to last
> forever and there is always the random failure, even when a week old.
> It's usually the loss of important data and not having a backup that
> makes it sooooo bad.  I'm not real picky on brand as long as it is a
> company I have heard of.
>

One thing to keep in mind is statistics. For a single drive by itself
it hardly matters anymore what you buy. You cannot predict the
failure. However if you buy multiple identical drives at the same time
then most likely you will either get all good drives or (possibly) a
bunch of drives that suffer from similar defects and all start failing
at the same point in their life cycle. For RAID arrays it's
measurably best to buy drives that come from different manufacturing
lots, better from different factories, and maybe even from different
companies. Then, if a drive fails, assuming the failure is really the
fault of the drive and not some local issue like power sources or ESD
events, etc., it's less likely other drives in the box will fail at
the same time.

Cheers,
Mark


rdalek1967 at gmail

May 9, 2012, 4:49 PM

Post #20 of 51 (2050 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
>> It doesn't matter what brand you go with
>
> Especially true since there are only 2 companies actually making
> consumer hard drives anymore: WD and Seagate. Both of them seem to
> know what they are doing, for the most part...
>
> Some hard drives fail at the beginning of their life. All hard drives
> fail at the end of their life. :)
>
>


I'm about to show my age so please close your eyes. Pretty please. -_-

Way back in the stone age, there was a guy that released a curve for
electronics life. The failure rate is high at the beginning, especially
for the first few minutes, then falls to about nothing, then after
several years it goes back up again. At the beginning of the curve, the
thought was it could be a bad solder job, bad components or some other
problem. At the other end was just when age kicked in. Sweat spot is
in the middle.

I try to keep these things in mind. Example. I bought a TV a couple
years ago. My old TV was about 20 years old and the power supply had
some sort of issue. It was either a diode getting weak or a capacitor
was going bad. It had the little sine waves going up the screen. It
was hard to see but was visible when the screen was all the same colour.
Age was creeping up on this thing.

Anyway, when my DirecTv box went out, it was years old too, I went to
get me a new one. While there I saw this nice LCD TV sitting on a shelf
and I might add, it looked so lonesome. lol It was marked down about
half price. Hmmm, was it repaired or what? I asked a guy what the deal
was. He said it was their display model. My first thought was that
this could have already went through the first part of the curve. So, I
asked how long it was on display. He said about 9 or 10 months. He
thinks I am buying used and I'm thinking that this thing has already
went through the bad part of its life.

I walked out with a $800 TV for about $400. I think I got the better
deal myself.

Most of the drives, or other electronics, that I have either die under
warranty or die when I am past caring. It has been a good long while
since I had to return anything under warranty.

I'm done showing my age, open your eyes again. LOL

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"


rdalek1967 at gmail

May 9, 2012, 4:58 PM

Post #21 of 51 (2048 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> <SNIP>
>>> My thoughts these days is that nobody really makes a bad drive anymore.
>>> Like cars[1], they're all good and do what it says on the box. Same
>>> with bikes[2].
>>>
>>> A manufacturer may have some bad luck and a product range is less than
>>> perfect, but even that is quite rare and most stuff ups can be fixed
>>> with new firmware. So it's all good.
>>
>>
>> That's my thoughts too. It doesn't matter what brand you go with, they
>> all have some sort of failure at some point. They are not built to last
>> forever and there is always the random failure, even when a week old.
>> It's usually the loss of important data and not having a backup that
>> makes it sooooo bad. I'm not real picky on brand as long as it is a
>> company I have heard of.
>>
>
> One thing to keep in mind is statistics. For a single drive by itself
> it hardly matters anymore what you buy. You cannot predict the
> failure. However if you buy multiple identical drives at the same time
> then most likely you will either get all good drives or (possibly) a
> bunch of drives that suffer from similar defects and all start failing
> at the same point in their life cycle. For RAID arrays it's
> measurably best to buy drives that come from different manufacturing
> lots, better from different factories, and maybe even from different
> companies. Then, if a drive fails, assuming the failure is really the
> fault of the drive and not some local issue like power sources or ESD
> events, etc., it's less likely other drives in the box will fail at
> the same time.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>



You make a good point too. I had a headlight to go out on my car once
long ago. I, not thinking, replaced them both since the new ones were
brighter. Guess what, when one of the bulbs blew out, the other was out
VERY soon after. Now, I replace them but NOT at the same time. Keep in
mind, just like a hard drive, when one headlight is on, so is the other
one. When we turn our computers on, all the drives spin up together so
they are basically all getting the same wear and tear effect.

I don't use RAID, except to kill bugs, but that is good advice. People
who do use RAID would be wise to use it.

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"


pandu at poluan

May 9, 2012, 6:39 PM

Post #22 of 51 (2049 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On May 10, 2012 6:54 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> Paul Hartman wrote:
> > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
> >> It doesn't matter what brand you go with
> >
> > Especially true since there are only 2 companies actually making
> > consumer hard drives anymore: WD and Seagate. Both of them seem to
> > know what they are doing, for the most part...
> >
> > Some hard drives fail at the beginning of their life. All hard drives
> > fail at the end of their life. :)
> >
> >
>
>
> I'm about to show my age so please close your eyes. Pretty please. -_-
>
> Way back in the stone age, there was a guy that released a curve for
> electronics life. The failure rate is high at the beginning, especially
> for the first few minutes, then falls to about nothing, then after
> several years it goes back up again. At the beginning of the curve, the
> thought was it could be a bad solder job, bad components or some other
> problem. At the other end was just when age kicked in. Sweat spot is
> in the middle.
>
> I try to keep these things in mind. Example. I bought a TV a couple
> years ago. My old TV was about 20 years old and the power supply had
> some sort of issue. It was either a diode getting weak or a capacitor
> was going bad. It had the little sine waves going up the screen. It
> was hard to see but was visible when the screen was all the same colour.
> Age was creeping up on this thing.
>
> Anyway, when my DirecTv box went out, it was years old too, I went to
> get me a new one. While there I saw this nice LCD TV sitting on a shelf
> and I might add, it looked so lonesome. lol It was marked down about
> half price. Hmmm, was it repaired or what? I asked a guy what the deal
> was. He said it was their display model. My first thought was that
> this could have already went through the first part of the curve. So, I
> asked how long it was on display. He said about 9 or 10 months. He
> thinks I am buying used and I'm thinking that this thing has already
> went through the bad part of its life.
>
> I walked out with a $800 TV for about $400. I think I got the better
> deal myself.
>

Heeey, that's a good point! Now I know that buying display units might be
the best deal.

Thanks, again! I'll now be keeping an eye open for such deals ;-)

Rgds,


adamcarter3 at gmail

May 9, 2012, 6:52 PM

Post #23 of 51 (2043 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

>> Way back in the stone age, there was a guy that released a curve for
>> electronics life. †The failure rate is high at the beginning, especially
>> for the first few minutes, then falls to about nothing, then after
>> several years it goes back up again.

That concept is much more general than just electronics;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve


michaelkintzios at gmail

May 10, 2012, 12:03 AM

Post #24 of 51 (2040 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Thursday 10 May 2012 00:58:47 Dale wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
> > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
> >> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > <SNIP>
> >
> >>> My thoughts these days is that nobody really makes a bad drive anymore.
> >>> Like cars[1], they're all good and do what it says on the box. Same
> >>> with bikes[2].
> >>>
> >>> A manufacturer may have some bad luck and a product range is less than
> >>> perfect, but even that is quite rare and most stuff ups can be fixed
> >>> with new firmware. So it's all good.
> >>
> >> That's my thoughts too. It doesn't matter what brand you go with, they
> >> all have some sort of failure at some point. They are not built to last
> >> forever and there is always the random failure, even when a week old.
> >> It's usually the loss of important data and not having a backup that
> >> makes it sooooo bad. I'm not real picky on brand as long as it is a
> >> company I have heard of.
> >
> > One thing to keep in mind is statistics. For a single drive by itself
> > it hardly matters anymore what you buy. You cannot predict the
> > failure. However if you buy multiple identical drives at the same time
> > then most likely you will either get all good drives or (possibly) a
> > bunch of drives that suffer from similar defects and all start failing
> > at the same point in their life cycle. For RAID arrays it's
> > measurably best to buy drives that come from different manufacturing
> > lots, better from different factories, and maybe even from different
> > companies. Then, if a drive fails, assuming the failure is really the
> > fault of the drive and not some local issue like power sources or ESD
> > events, etc., it's less likely other drives in the box will fail at
> > the same time.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
>
> You make a good point too. I had a headlight to go out on my car once
> long ago. I, not thinking, replaced them both since the new ones were
> brighter. Guess what, when one of the bulbs blew out, the other was out
> VERY soon after. Now, I replace them but NOT at the same time. Keep in
> mind, just like a hard drive, when one headlight is on, so is the other
> one. When we turn our computers on, all the drives spin up together so
> they are basically all getting the same wear and tear effect.

Unless you're driving something out of the 60's before halogen bulbs came out,
you didn't by any chance touched them with your greasy fingers - did you?
Because that's a promoter of early failure (unequal temperature tension caused
by impurities on the glass).

It's better to use a clean tissue or the foam wrapper they are packed in and
take care not to touch them with your fingers at all. Should you
inadvertently do so, then you'll need to clean them with meths or similar
degreaser.
--
Regards,
Mick
Attachments: signature.asc (0.19 KB)


napalm at squareownz

May 10, 2012, 4:55 AM

Post #25 of 51 (2046 views)
Permalink
Re: Are those "green" drives any good? [In reply to]

On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 06:58:47PM -0500, Dale wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
> > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967 [at] gmail> wrote:
> >> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > <SNIP>
> >>> My thoughts these days is that nobody really makes a bad drive anymore.
> >>> Like cars[1], they're all good and do what it says on the box. Same
> >>> with bikes[2].
> >>>
> >>> A manufacturer may have some bad luck and a product range is less than
> >>> perfect, but even that is quite rare and most stuff ups can be fixed
> >>> with new firmware. So it's all good.
> >>
> >>
> >> That's my thoughts too. It doesn't matter what brand you go with, they
> >> all have some sort of failure at some point. They are not built to last
> >> forever and there is always the random failure, even when a week old.
> >> It's usually the loss of important data and not having a backup that
> >> makes it sooooo bad. I'm not real picky on brand as long as it is a
> >> company I have heard of.
> >>
> >
> > One thing to keep in mind is statistics. For a single drive by itself
> > it hardly matters anymore what you buy. You cannot predict the
> > failure. However if you buy multiple identical drives at the same time
> > then most likely you will either get all good drives or (possibly) a
> > bunch of drives that suffer from similar defects and all start failing
> > at the same point in their life cycle. For RAID arrays it's
> > measurably best to buy drives that come from different manufacturing
> > lots, better from different factories, and maybe even from different
> > companies. Then, if a drive fails, assuming the failure is really the
> > fault of the drive and not some local issue like power sources or ESD
> > events, etc., it's less likely other drives in the box will fail at
> > the same time.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >
> >
>
>
>
> You make a good point too. I had a headlight to go out on my car once
> long ago. I, not thinking, replaced them both since the new ones were
> brighter. Guess what, when one of the bulbs blew out, the other was out
> VERY soon after. Now, I replace them but NOT at the same time. Keep in
> mind, just like a hard drive, when one headlight is on, so is the other
> one. When we turn our computers on, all the drives spin up together so
> they are basically all getting the same wear and tear effect.
>
> I don't use RAID, except to kill bugs, but that is good advice. People
> who do use RAID would be wise to use it.
>
> Dale
>
> :-) :-)
>

hum hum!
I know that Windows does this by default (it annoys me so I disable it)
but does linux disable or stop running the disks if they're inactive?
I'm assuming there's an option somewhere - maybe just `unmount`!

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