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Fwd: Re: Arm Gentoo Handbook

 

 

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armin76 at gentoo

Oct 12, 2011, 6:52 AM

Post #1 of 3 (942 views)
Permalink
Fwd: Re: Arm Gentoo Handbook

On 10/05/2011 11:43 PM, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 02:46:54PM -0400, wireless wrote:
>> What currently links to the Gentoo handbook for ARM is
>> deprecated!
>>
>> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-arm.xml?part=1&chap=5
>>
>>
>>
Why not link to this doc?
>> http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/trimslice/install.xml
>>
>> Lots of new arm netbooks are here and no doubt many different
>> offerings are on the way!
>
> Raśl,
>
> Apart from owning an Eepad Transformer, I know nothing of Gentoo
> Linux/ARM installations. Any thoughts on your part on how we can
> ensure that our documentation stays of high quality here?
>
> Wkr, Sven Vermeulen
>

Hi Sven,

Unfortunately i do not have any suggestion of how we could enhance our
documentation in this aspect.

ARM is very different from other, more common, architectures. If we
look at the handbook, we have some troubles at the beginning. Each SoC
has its own specific stuff regarding installation. For example, most
of the OMAP SoCs require an SD-card with specific partition layout.
Some devices have the kernel in the flash memory, some devices lack
flash memory(pandaboard f.ex), so the kernel+bootloader is in external
storage.

Every different SoC needs its own kernel and unfortunately most of the
devices aren't supported in the mainline kernel(yet).

If you look at the documentation i've done:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/pandaboard/install.xml
http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/sheevaplug/install.xml
http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/tegra2/install.xml
http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/trimslice/install.xml

you'll see that only some small parts are common among all of them.

And although the tegra250 dev kit and the trimslice use the same SoC
as your Transformer or the also famously known Toshiba AC100,
different procedures are required for all of them, and the kernel for
each device only supports said device.

These big differences makes one page per device the only option, IMHO.
I'm open to alternatives. In other distros, the use of
installers(ubuntu) or device/SoC-specific images(archlinuxarm) hide
this issue.

On our case, we do architecture-specific stage3s. armv7a is one
architecture, in the market there are different SoCs that are
compliant to such architecture: TI OMAP4, Freescale i.MX5, Nvidia
Tegra2, etc...
And those examples i just said use, for example, different serial
ports: OMAP4(ttyO2), i.MX5(ttymxc0) and Tegra2 uses the default ttyS0.

The current ARM handbook was written in 2004 or so, and was designed
for a device that is uncommon nowadays, old, and slow.

IMHO removing the current handbook and pointing to one page per device
handbooks would be the way to go.

Thanks


wireless at tampabay

Oct 12, 2011, 8:29 AM

Post #2 of 3 (895 views)
Permalink
Re: Fwd: Re: Arm Gentoo Handbook [In reply to]

On 10/12/11 09:52, Raśl Porcel wrote:
>
> On 10/05/2011 11:43 PM, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 02:46:54PM -0400, wireless wrote:
>>> What currently links to the Gentoo handbook for ARM is
>>> deprecated!
>>>
>>> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-arm.xml?part=1&chap=5
>>>
>>>
>>>
> Why not link to this doc?
>>> http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/trimslice/install.xml
>>>
>>> Lots of new arm netbooks are here and no doubt many different
>>> offerings are on the way!
>>
>> Raśl,
>>
>> Apart from owning an Eepad Transformer, I know nothing of Gentoo
>> Linux/ARM installations. Any thoughts on your part on how we can
>> ensure that our documentation stays of high quality here?
>>
>> Wkr, Sven Vermeulen
>>
>
> Hi Sven,
>
> Unfortunately i do not have any suggestion of how we could enhance our
> documentation in this aspect.
>
> ARM is very different from other, more common, architectures. If we
> look at the handbook, we have some troubles at the beginning. Each SoC
> has its own specific stuff regarding installation. For example, most
> of the OMAP SoCs require an SD-card with specific partition layout.
> Some devices have the kernel in the flash memory, some devices lack
> flash memory(pandaboard f.ex), so the kernel+bootloader is in external
> storage.
>
> Every different SoC needs its own kernel and unfortunately most of the
> devices aren't supported in the mainline kernel(yet).
>
> If you look at the documentation i've done:
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/pandaboard/install.xml
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/sheevaplug/install.xml
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/tegra2/install.xml
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/trimslice/install.xml
>
> you'll see that only some small parts are common among all of them.
>
> And although the tegra250 dev kit and the trimslice use the same SoC
> as your Transformer or the also famously known Toshiba AC100,
> different procedures are required for all of them, and the kernel for
> each device only supports said device.
>
> These big differences makes one page per device the only option, IMHO.
> I'm open to alternatives. In other distros, the use of
> installers(ubuntu) or device/SoC-specific images(archlinuxarm) hide
> this issue.
>
> On our case, we do architecture-specific stage3s. armv7a is one
> architecture, in the market there are different SoCs that are
> compliant to such architecture: TI OMAP4, Freescale i.MX5, Nvidia
> Tegra2, etc...
> And those examples i just said use, for example, different serial
> ports: OMAP4(ttyO2), i.MX5(ttymxc0) and Tegra2 uses the default ttyS0.
>
> The current ARM handbook was written in 2004 or so, and was designed
> for a device that is uncommon nowadays, old, and slow.
>
> IMHO removing the current handbook and pointing to one page per device
> handbooks would be the way to go.
>
> Thanks

Thank you Raul!

OK so I agree 100% with what Raul has said. I think, as do many
others, that ARM is the wave of the future, particularly for
net-books, notepads and light weight portables.


I think that if we develop/write up the intro for ARM in the
handbook and express what Raul has said, the handbook can focus
on the myriad of ways to set up the disc/ssd/flash/sdcard/CF/etc
where the end result is somewhat functionally the same. Note
the files systems chosen may diverge from the main stream
handbook suggestions. We can then link to Raul's guide_pages
(or move copies elsewhere) under doc_team management for
completion of the install.(this is where the different
offering will diverge (slightly) from the handbook's
normal installation sequence.

(another idea)
Maybe for some popular Arm platforms we put up an image to
burn onto the medium chosen as a way to get a baseline
arm system up? This would come after some folks perform
installations and somebody decides to put up an image
to first test and then later link into the handbook
as an installation option?

A fundamental choice is to cross_compile or use native compiling.
So the end result is either a system where the sources are
cross-compiled on a host, or natively compiled and maintained
on the target device. Many (most?) will be of the cross compile
vintage, but, there is a new wave of ARM hardware coming,
where native (in_situ) compiling will be a viable option.

Personally, embedded Gentoo has lots of smart folks, BUT, Raul
has a keen clarity on the issues and presents very well.
So Let's let him think about it and suggest what makes sense
and support it.

Diverging from the usual norms of the handbook is something that
this doc team needs to discuss, resolve or present other ideas.

ARM is coming big time to Linux and if we prepare well
it will distinguish our distro, heads and shoulders,
above our (friendly) rivals, imho.

Embedded Gentoo is very cool; a slick system to get
many technoids to use gentoo on their embedded hardware,
will result is a coup of technical folks joining the
gentoo teams, imho.

Besides, all of us commoners will get some very cool
ARM based gentoo hardware to use and show off....!

James


swift at gentoo

Oct 13, 2011, 12:01 PM

Post #3 of 3 (913 views)
Permalink
Re: Fwd: Re: Arm Gentoo Handbook [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:29:28AM -0400, wireless wrote:
> I think that if we develop/write up the intro for ARM in the
> handbook and express what Raul has said, the handbook can focus
> on the myriad of ways to set up the disc/ssd/flash/sdcard/CF/etc
> where the end result is somewhat functionally the same. Note
> the files systems chosen may diverge from the main stream
> handbook suggestions. We can then link to Raul's guide_pages
> (or move copies elsewhere) under doc_team management for
> completion of the install.(this is where the different
> offering will diverge (slightly) from the handbook's
> normal installation sequence.

I checked with RaĆŗland he doesn't mind if his guides were somehow
transformed to be fitted in a general handbook for the ARM architecture. I
don't mind that the ARM Handbook would look different from other
architectures if that is due to technical reasons within the ARM
architecture, although I do hope that it can all be fitted nicely so that
future evolutions within the Gentoo Handbooks find their way into the ARM
Handbook as well.

If integrating the guides is too difficult, we can still link the documents
- either to RaĆ¹l's location or within /doc/en.

Anyone up for the challenge? I'm currently working on the Gentoo Hardened
SELinux handbook for now (as well as the underlying policies) so I don't
think I'll have time immediately to work on this.

Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen

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