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Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012]

 

 

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slong at rathaus

May 7, 2012, 6:40 PM

Post #1 of 68 (1133 views)
Permalink
Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012]

Greg KH wrote:

> On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 03:50:24PM +0100, Steven J Long wrote:
>> >> To confirm again, that this is about without initramfs:

>> > systemd and udev are being merged into one tarball. For the
>> > "foreseeable future", it will still build 2 separate binaries.
>> > What happens down the road if/when it all becomes one combined
>> > binary?
<snip>
>> (It's much easier to introduce coupling between software in the same
>> package. GregKH has also mooted a tightly-coupled "core" Linux distro,
>> which afaict is the same reasoning as GnomeOS, and /that/ sounds like a
>> clusterfsck waiting to happen.)
>
> "mooted"?
>
Yes, in the sense of "raised it as a possibility" or in this case a future
direction[1] as discussed on debian-dev[2].

I'll assume you're just not familiar with the word 'moot' as a verb;
originally the adjective meant 'on the agenda' or 'on the table', and 'to
moot' means to raise an item for discussion. Its modern meaning of 'no
longer worth discussing' comes from the judiciary: for it to be dismissed,
it had to be under discussion in the first place, and so usage evolved.

> And since when does having a set of tightly coupled base libraries and
> systems that work well together somehow turn into "GnomeOS"? Reaching
> like that is just foolish on your part.
>
When did I say that it's the same thing? I simply said it sounds like "the
same reasoning." Compare:

"There are a number of folk in the Linux ecosystem pushing for a
small core of tightly coupled components to make the core of a modern
linux distro. The idea is that this 'core distro' can evolve in sync
with the kernel, and generally move fast. This is both good for the
overall platform and very hard to implement for the 'universal'
distros [such as Gentoo or Debian]." [1]

..with:
"The future of GNOME is as a Linux based OS. It is harmful to pretend
that you are writing the OS core to work on any number of different
kernels, user space subsystem combinations, and core libraries..
Kernels just aren't that interesting. Linux isn't an OS. Now it is
our job to try to build one - finally. Let's do it."[3]

They sound like very similar reasoning to me. You misinterpreted what I
said, which is one thing: there was no need to be discourteous.

Let me be clear: I don't personally have an issue with udev talking to dbus
(a requirement for it sounds wrong to me, but that's by-the-by.) It would
annoy me no end, however, if udev required systemd, since I don't want to
switch to it. And that is what we were discussing: possible future coupling
between the two, which is much easier to do when the sources are part of the
same package.

Everything I need done on a desktop or a laptop in terms of hotplug, acpid
events and wifi, the current udev has been able to do for years. I'd find it
odd (read: the design smells) if those use-cases suddenly required new
external dependencies. AFAIC vertical integration is supposed to mean closer
downward coupling, typically skipping a layer or two; if it also means
upward coupling, then the design is flawed ime.

*shrug* What you do with your time, is your business. I'll evaluate any
coupling that does or doesn't come up as and when, and make my own decisions
then.

That it's been mooted by you ;) means I'm glad others are doing work on
busybox and mdev integration into openrc (I've read tonight that mdev works
fine for simple hotplug like USB sticks) especially the applet to fsck and
mount /usr early.

OFC you could just assure us that udev will never rely on systemd as a
design decision. I can understand that systemd might need close integration
with the underlying udev implementation[PS].

SteveL.

[1] https://plus.google.com/u/0/111049168280159033135/posts/V2t57Efkf1s
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/04/msg00649.html
[3] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00439.html

[PS] Though it reminds me of packages distributing libraries, and I'd
question why one git repo can't be used to make two tarballs, with beta
testing of udev alone by distros like Gentoo or Debian. A separate tarball
would mean automated tests can be done, which is useful as a basis for
systemd et al: another benefit of no upward coupling.

--
#friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)


ryao at cs

May 7, 2012, 7:09 PM

Post #2 of 68 (1096 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On 05/07/12 21:40, Steven J Long wrote:
> "The future of GNOME is as a Linux based OS. It is harmful to pretend
> that you are writing the OS core to work on any number of different
> kernels, user space subsystem combinations, and core libraries..
> Kernels just aren't that interesting. Linux isn't an OS. Now it is
> our job to try to build one - finally. Let's do it."[3]

For what it is worth, the OS core is the kernel, libc and bootloader.
GNOME runs on top of that.
Attachments: signature.asc (0.88 KB)


gregkh at gentoo

May 9, 2012, 11:32 AM

Post #3 of 68 (1088 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 02:40:41AM +0100, Steven J Long wrote:
> OFC you could just assure us that udev will never rely on systemd as a
> design decision. I can understand that systemd might need close integration
> with the underlying udev implementation[PS].

Nope, can't make that assurance at all.

Actually, maybe I can make the opposite assurance, let's see what the
future brings... :)

greg k-h


lxnay at gentoo

May 9, 2012, 11:51 AM

Post #4 of 68 (1089 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

I foresee a new udev fork then.
If udev is going to end up like avahi is, this is *highly* probable.

With "avahi is ..." I actually mean, one single tarball blob depending
on the whole world and its solar system and galaxy.

Please stop throwing lennartware at people. FailAudio has been enough, thanks.
--
Fabio Erculiani


gregkh at gentoo

May 9, 2012, 3:36 PM

Post #5 of 68 (1091 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 08:51:37PM +0200, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> I foresee a new udev fork then.

Please feel free to do so, the code has been open since the first day I
created it.

Remember, forks are good, there's nothing wrong with them, I strongly
encourage people to do them if they wish to, it benefits everyone
involved.

> If udev is going to end up like avahi is, this is *highly* probable.

That's an odd transition...

> With "avahi is ..." I actually mean, one single tarball blob depending
> on the whole world and its solar system and galaxy.

Hyperbole, how nice :(

> Please stop throwing lennartware at people. FailAudio has been enough, thanks.

The use of these terms is both rude and totally uncalled for. You
should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously, that's unacceptable behavior from anyone.

No one forces you to use any of this software if you do not want to.
There are lots of other operating systems out there, feel free to switch
to them if you do not like the way this one is working out, no one is
stopping you. But for you to disparage someone who has given immense
bodies of work to the community, and you, for free, is horrible behavior
and needs to stop right now.

greg k-h


patrick at gentoo

May 9, 2012, 6:08 PM

Post #6 of 68 (1089 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On 05/10/12 06:36, Greg KH wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 08:51:37PM +0200, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>> I foresee a new udev fork then.
> Please feel free to do so, the code has been open since the first day I
> created it.
>
> Remember, forks are good, there's nothing wrong with them, I strongly
> encourage people to do them if they wish to, it benefits everyone
> involved.
Forks are often unnecessary.

Now instead of working on something useful I get to spend my time
reverting to previous behaviour, just so I can have a working solution
instead of a shiny one.

Are we really doing so well that we can just rewrite everything instead
of maybe, for once, have things boring predictable and bugfree? I mean
... things were going so well. Machines Just Booted Every TIme.

And now - UEFI is glitching all over the place, the GPT-aware
bootloaders have config files with insane complexity and are exquisitely
buggy, and someone thought making the init system exciting would just
make life oh so much better. Result: I can't get more than a blinking
cursor out of some machines without resorting to Dirty Hacks I would
really prefer not to even consider.


Seriously. I don't have time for these games. Stop breaking stuff!
>
>> If udev is going to end up like avahi is, this is *highly* probable.
> That's an odd transition...
Same people involved, same mentality - and we don't want to be standing
on the sides saying "Told you so" again. Gets boring.
>
>> With "avahi is ..." I actually mean, one single tarball blob depending
>> on the whole world and its solar system and galaxy.
> Hyperbole, how nice :(
>
>> Please stop throwing lennartware at people. FailAudio has been enough, thanks.
> The use of these terms is both rude and totally uncalled for. You
> should be ashamed of yourself.
It's reactive. I've been called stupid, conservative, behind the times,
user of obsolete software that will go the way of the dinosaurs. Why
should we be ashamed of not agreeing with these funny pranksters?
>
> Seriously, that's unacceptable behavior from anyone.
Then make it stop? :)
>
> No one forces you to use any of this software if you do not want to.
Yeah, I can just stop updating. Sounds like a solution to all problems ;)
> There are lots of other operating systems out there, feel free to switch
> to them if you do not like the way this one is working out, no one is
> stopping you. But for you to disparage someone who has given immense
> bodies of work to the community, and you, for free, is horrible behavior
> and needs to stop right now.
Goes both ways. We're here because of Freedom, in various flavours.
Freedom to copy things around and use for free. Freedom to swap out one
part and use another.
Freedom to break things badly.

So why would I give up my freedom to tinker just because someone else is
writing more code than I do?
And I still have the freedom to complain all day long about undesigned
stuff people try to force on me.

Hey, you even have the freedom to complain about my complaining.

Either way, I hope I can continue using Free Linux for a while and not
be forced to use random things that are silly. I'd have expected you to
support that.

Take care,

Patrick


rich0 at gentoo

May 9, 2012, 8:08 PM

Post #7 of 68 (1092 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Patrick Lauer <patrick [at] gentoo> wrote:
> On 05/10/12 06:36, Greg KH wrote:
>> On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 08:51:37PM +0200, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>>> Please stop throwing lennartware at people. FailAudio has been enough, thanks.
>> The use of these terms is both rude and totally uncalled for. You
>> should be ashamed of yourself.
> It's reactive. I've been called stupid, conservative, behind the times,
> user of obsolete software that will go the way of the dinosaurs. Why
> should we be ashamed of not agreeing with these funny pranksters?

Look, I have pretty mixed feelings about all the vertical integration.
However, let's at least do each other the professional courtesy of
not resorting to name-calling. We're allowed to disagree, and that's
OK. By all means voice your opinion. However, let's talk about the
issues, and not the people advocating them.

This is just polite behavior. It is also the rules for posting on
this list, especially if you hold a g.o address.

> So why would I give up my freedom to tinker just because someone else is
> writing more code than I do?

I understand your frustration. Really, I do - I often find myself
sharing it. However, in the end people working on FOSS are basically
free to do what they want, and everybody is free to use or support
what they want. I don't like the fact that most people contributing
to Android tend/aspire to be associated with the commercial market for
smartphones, and as a result they tend to embrace pro-developer /
anti-consumer solutions (like not allowing easy blocking of ads, or
randomizing calls to read the IMEI, etc). However, the market is what
it is. The only thing that is really any different today is that
companies are at least releasing the source for the stuff they do - in
the past they'd have just closed it all off so that there wouldn't
even be the option of forking. If I want to I can at least find the
API call to read my IMEI and tamper with it.

I think part of the community frustration is the increasing level of
commercial support around Linux. That has given us much more robust
stuff to play with, but it also has resulted in a loss of control and
change in general atmosphere. In the world of 1999 Linux market share
took a back seat to hackability. In the world of the Canonicals,
market share matters a great deal, and appealing to open source
contributors matters a lot less.

Rich


lxnay at gentoo

May 9, 2012, 9:34 PM

Post #8 of 68 (1092 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

I think expressing my own opinion about Lennart-made software is my
right, after all.
Firstly, it's almost impossible nowadays to avoid including avahi,
systemd and pulseaudio into a desktop distro so, there is no real
choice. This issue became a sensible matter for those users who for
instance, wanted to have a silly mp3 player working without going
through the PA nonsense, really missing the old
ALSA-oh-it-was-always-working days.
If you want to bring complexity but you end up not being able to
handle it, then you're not a really good engineer, IMHO.

Having said that, I also wonder where's the lovely modularity the
various *nix platforms had. If this is the actual direction of Linux
Foundation, Redhat and Canonical, I am worried that Linux would end up
being an OSX-wannabe.

Of course, I am not only bringing my personal opinion here, but the
one of the majority of users I've been talking with.
I am not against changes, I am actually in favor of them, but only
when they really make sense and solve problems, which it doesn't seem
the case lately.

I didn't want to offend anyone, but just having fun (sigh) of IMHO bad
design decisions.
--
Fabio Erculiani


chithanh at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 4:44 AM

Post #9 of 68 (1090 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

Greg KH schrieb:
> On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 08:51:37PM +0200, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>> Please stop throwing lennartware at people. FailAudio has been enough, thanks.
> The use of these terms is both rude and totally uncalled for. You
> should be ashamed of yourself.
>
> Seriously, that's unacceptable behavior from anyone.

You mean as unacceptable as calling C++ proponents "full of
bullshit"[1], developers of another operating system "masturbating
monkeys"[2] and security researchers as "people wanking around with
their opinions"[3]?

> No one forces you to use any of this software if you do not want to.
> There are lots of other operating systems out there, feel free to switch
> to them if you do not like the way this one is working out, no one is
> stopping you. But for you to disparage someone who has given immense
> bodies of work to the community, and you, for free, is horrible behavior
> and needs to stop right now.

Insulting other people is indeed not nice. A borderline statement would
be the "card-carrying member of the Poettering gang" which was coined by
a well-known kernel developer who shall remain unnamed here.
But using harsh words to describe other people's software? C'mon.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn


[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918
[2] https://lkml.org/lkml/2008/7/15/296
[3] https://lkml.org/lkml/2007/10/1/217


zmedico at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 7:39 AM

Post #10 of 68 (1088 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On 05/10/2012 04:44 AM, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Greg KH schrieb:
>> No one forces you to use any of this software if you do not want to.
>> There are lots of other operating systems out there, feel free to switch
>> to them if you do not like the way this one is working out, no one is
>> stopping you. But for you to disparage someone who has given immense
>> bodies of work to the community, and you, for free, is horrible behavior
>> and needs to stop right now.
>
> Insulting other people is indeed not nice. A borderline statement would
> be the "card-carrying member of the Poettering gang" which was coined by
> a well-known kernel developer who shall remain unnamed here.
> But using harsh words to describe other people's software? C'mon.

Specific criticism's can be be constructive, but calling PulseAudio a
name like FailAudio certainly isn't. I'd enjoy reading this thread a lot
more if it contained more discussion about solutions, and less of what
seems like whining due to self-pity.
--
Thanks,
Zac


tester at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 9:54 AM

Post #11 of 68 (1090 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

Hi,

On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 06:34 +0200, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> I think expressing my own opinion about Lennart-made software is my
> right, after all.

I would express my opinion about Fabio made software, but I've never
heard of any.

> Firstly, it's almost impossible nowadays to avoid including avahi,
> systemd and pulseaudio into a desktop distro so, there is no real
> choice. This issue became a sensible matter for those users who for
> instance, wanted to have a silly mp3 player working without going
> through the PA nonsense, really missing the old
> ALSA-oh-it-was-always-working days.

Maybe the reason every sensible distribution uses Avahi, Pulseaudio, etc
is because they are better than other solutions out there?
Do you think is a fast conspiracy to make your life suck? I believe
engineers in every distribution are looking at what's available and
picking what they think is the best solution, and it turns out Lennart
is pretty damn good at making useful software.

Was alsa always working? I remember spending hours trying to figure out
the right control in alsamixer and fighting with alsa's arcane
configuration languages (it has 3 different ones). And how do you deal
with modern technologies like Bluetooth audio without Pulseaudio
exactly?

> Of course, I am not only bringing my personal opinion here, but the
> one of the majority of users I've been talking with.

I think you only hear from users who like to complain, others are just
happy that everything works for them thanks to Pulseaudio, systemd, etc.
If you think that Lennart does not solve problems, maybe it's because
you don't even understand what the problems were? For example, I
encourage you to read about how the dynamic latency in PA allows for
lower power usage or how modern audio hardware is designed to use a
userspace sound server, etc.

--
Olivier Crte
tester [at] gentoo
Gentoo Developer
Attachments: signature.asc (0.19 KB)


levertond at googlemail

May 10, 2012, 11:57 AM

Post #12 of 68 (1083 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

Greg KH wrote:
> No one forces you to use any of this software if you do not want to.
> There are lots of other operating systems out there, feel free to switch
> to them if you do not like the way this one is working out, no one is
> stopping you.

Or alternatively, the people who hate Unix could move to some other OS
that suites them better, rather than trying to destroy what everyone
else is perfectly happy with.


zmedico at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 12:22 PM

Post #13 of 68 (1084 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On 05/10/2012 11:57 AM, David Leverton wrote:
> Greg KH wrote:
>> No one forces you to use any of this software if you do not want to.
>> There are lots of other operating systems out there, feel free to switch
>> to them if you do not like the way this one is working out, no one is
>> stopping you.
>
> Or alternatively, the people who hate Unix could move to some other OS
> that suites them better, rather than trying to destroy what everyone
> else is perfectly happy with.

Isn't it presumptuous to say that they hate Unix? Maybe their vision of
how they'd like Unix to be is just different from yours?
--
Thanks,
Zac


levertond at googlemail

May 10, 2012, 12:30 PM

Post #14 of 68 (1083 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

Zac Medico wrote:
> Isn't it presumptuous to say that they hate Unix? Maybe their vision of
> how they'd like Unix to be is just different from yours?

If "how they'd like Unix to be" goes so blatantly against its
fundamental design principles then I think it's reasonable to say that
they hate it.


hwoarang at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 12:55 PM

Post #15 of 68 (1084 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 05/09/2012 07:51 PM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> I foresee a new udev fork then. If udev is going to end up like
> avahi is, this is *highly* probable.
>
> With "avahi is ..." I actually mean, one single tarball blob
> depending on the whole world and its solar system and galaxy.
>
> Please stop throwing lennartware at people. FailAudio has been
> enough, thanks.

I sincerely hope someone has "hacked" into your account and he is
writing on your behalf. This sort of trash talk does not belong to a
public Gentoo mailing list. Make a constructive criticism if you
really need to rant about software that nobody forces you to use.

- --
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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ciaran.mccreesh at googlemail

May 10, 2012, 12:59 PM

Post #16 of 68 (1086 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

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Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 10 May 2012 20:55:02 +0100
Markos Chandras <hwoarang [at] gentoo> wrote:
> Make a constructive criticism if you really need to rant about
> software that nobody forces you to use.

Not that I agree with anything Fabio has ever said, but I believe the
issue under discussion here is that tight coupling and vertical
integration means we are in effect forced to use rather a lot of
software that we would prefer not to.

- --
Ciaran McCreesh
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mgorny at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 1:13 PM

Post #17 of 68 (1085 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Thu, 10 May 2012 20:59:40 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh [at] googlemail> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thu, 10 May 2012 20:55:02 +0100
> Markos Chandras <hwoarang [at] gentoo> wrote:
> > Make a constructive criticism if you really need to rant about
> > software that nobody forces you to use.
>
> Not that I agree with anything Fabio has ever said, but I believe the
> issue under discussion here is that tight coupling and vertical
> integration means we are in effect forced to use rather a lot of
> software that we would prefer not to.

No, I don't think you are forced to use anything. As was proven before,
there are always alternatives.


--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
Attachments: signature.asc (0.31 KB)


ciaran.mccreesh at googlemail

May 10, 2012, 1:14 PM

Post #18 of 68 (1085 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Thu, 10 May 2012 22:13:33 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny [at] gentoo> wrote:
> > On Thu, 10 May 2012 20:55:02 +0100
> > Markos Chandras <hwoarang [at] gentoo> wrote:
> > > Make a constructive criticism if you really need to rant about
> > > software that nobody forces you to use.
> >
> > Not that I agree with anything Fabio has ever said, but I believe
> > the issue under discussion here is that tight coupling and vertical
> > integration means we are in effect forced to use rather a lot of
> > software that we would prefer not to.
>
> No, I don't think you are forced to use anything. As was proven
> before, there are always alternatives.

That's a somewhat disingenuous claim when the alternatives are moving
steadily towards "don't use Linux at all" or "use the full GnomeOS
stack".

--
Ciaran McCreesh
Attachments: signature.asc (0.19 KB)


mgorny at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 1:23 PM

Post #19 of 68 (1086 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Thu, 10 May 2012 21:14:33 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh [at] googlemail> wrote:

> On Thu, 10 May 2012 22:13:33 +0200
> Michał Górny <mgorny [at] gentoo> wrote:
> > > On Thu, 10 May 2012 20:55:02 +0100
> > > Markos Chandras <hwoarang [at] gentoo> wrote:
> > > > Make a constructive criticism if you really need to rant about
> > > > software that nobody forces you to use.
> > >
> > > Not that I agree with anything Fabio has ever said, but I believe
> > > the issue under discussion here is that tight coupling and
> > > vertical integration means we are in effect forced to use rather
> > > a lot of software that we would prefer not to.
> >
> > No, I don't think you are forced to use anything. As was proven
> > before, there are always alternatives.
>
> That's a somewhat disingenuous claim when the alternatives are moving
> steadily towards "don't use Linux at all" or "use the full GnomeOS
> stack".

Then go rant upstream about it. Or another upstream. Or do something
useful yourself.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
Attachments: signature.asc (0.31 KB)


lxnay at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 1:48 PM

Post #20 of 68 (1083 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Markos Chandras <hwoarang [at] gentoo> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
>
> I sincerely hope someone has "hacked" into your account and he is
> writing on your behalf. This sort of trash talk does not belong to a
> public Gentoo mailing list. Make a constructive criticism if you
> really need to rant about software that nobody forces you to use.

No, this was really me. Forgive me for the rant, but the problem here
is real and no, the alternative would be either giving up with the
Linux stack or living with unreliable, overengineered software. I
don't see any other viable alternative.

Just answer my question, what is going to happen the day udev will
require systemd in order to work properly?

On a side note, I find it quite odd to be accused of trash talking by
Linux Kernel people.

>
> - --
> Regards,
> Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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> Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
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>



--
Fabio Erculiani


antarus at gentoo

May 10, 2012, 4:41 PM

Post #21 of 68 (1088 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Fabio Erculiani <lxnay [at] gentoo> wrote:
> I think expressing my own opinion about Lennart-made software is my
> right, after all.
> Firstly, it's almost impossible nowadays to avoid including avahi,
> systemd and pulseaudio into a desktop distro so, there is no real
> choice. This issue became a sensible matter for those users who for
> instance, wanted to have a silly mp3 player working without going
> through the PA nonsense, really missing the old
> ALSA-oh-it-was-always-working days.

Er, the source is open, so choice is always there. What I think your
complaint is the fact that it used to be easy to do those things
(because upstream supported those options and USE flags exposed them
to you) and now upstream is not supporting those options and there is
no easy way to remove the dependencies without doing a bunch of work.

> If you want to bring complexity but you end up not being able to
> handle it, then you're not a really good engineer, IMHO.

I don't think anyone expects complexity to come bug-free. Cathedral
and the Bazaar? Release Early and Release Often? I expect the software
to reach a stable state in a reasonable amount of time given the
complexity involved.

>
> Having said that, I also wonder where's the lovely modularity the
> various *nix platforms had. If this is the actual direction of Linux
> Foundation, Redhat and Canonical, I am worried that Linux would end up
> being an OSX-wannabe.

The problem as I understand it is that you want other people to write
software that meets your needs and it turns out that the world doesn't
always work that way.

You can fork the software you hate (using versions before you hated
it) or you can write your own software (like mdev + busybox) to
replace the hated components. Both of those things are actually
somewhat useful. Complaining about how some random people on the
internet don't write software that you find palatable is just silly.

> Of course, I am not only bringing my personal opinion here, but the
> one of the majority of users I've been talking with.
> I am not against changes, I am actually in favor of them, but only
> when they really make sense and solve problems, which it doesn't seem
> the case lately.
>
> I didn't want to offend anyone, but just having fun (sigh) of IMHO bad
> design decisions.
> --
> Fabio Erculiani
>


1i5t5.duncan at cox

May 10, 2012, 5:59 PM

Post #22 of 68 (1088 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

Fabio Erculiani posted on Thu, 10 May 2012 22:48:29 +0200 as excerpted:

> On a side note, I find it quite odd to be accused of trash talking by
> Linux Kernel people.

hwoarang is a kernel person?

If you note, gregkh didn't post that. I can't agree with udev/systemd
integration, but it's worth noting that gregkh has for the most part
stayed out of that debate, and simply stated where he sees udev going, as
an upstream person who thus speaks with authority on the subject.

It may very well be that a fork is thus required. I guess we wait and
see. But I don't see the kde folks being willingly subsumed into a
gnomeos black hole, and time and again, floss history has demonstrated
that when there's an immediate need, forks do occur. Both gnome and kde
have their forks in recent history, xorg is a fork, there's the glibc and
gcc history, etc. If integration gets too close, a fork /will/ happen.

But that history is available to everyone and the wise will take heed.
Meanwhile, for the moment at least, upstream udev and systemd have both
taken pains to state that while they're going to ship in a unified
tarball, at least for now, udev will remain buildable on its own,
SPECIFICALLY to support folks not ready to go systemd just yet. So
there's still hope.

And 3-5 years is an eternity in an ecosystem such as the FLOSS world,
evolving at the speed of the net! Looking back from there, it's quite
possible this debate will look petty and short-sighted, regardless of how
things ultimately turn out.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman


1i5t5.duncan at cox

May 10, 2012, 6:27 PM

Post #23 of 68 (1086 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

David Leverton posted on Thu, 10 May 2012 19:57:30 +0100 as excerpted:

> Greg KH wrote:
>> No one forces you to use any of this software if you do not want to.
>> There are lots of other operating systems out there, feel free to
>> switch to them if you do not like the way this one is working out, no
>> one is stopping you.
>
> Or alternatively, the people who hate Unix could move to some other OS
> that suites them better, rather than trying to destroy what everyone
> else is perfectly happy with.

I see the "hate Unix" angle tho I'd call it a bit strong...

But trying to destroy what everyone else is perfectly happy with??

How is simply writing some software, which after all is FLOSS and which
nobody is forced to use, "destroying"? They're taking their own software
where their vision points it, no more, no less. I don't really agree
with where it's going either, but that's part of the very freedom of the
FLOSS community we're all a part of. Others can fork the software or
provide less integrated substitutes, if desired. Meanwhile, if it's what
other coders choose to build on, well, they're free to do that too. It
doesn't mean I have to use their software!

FWIW, that's one reason I'm no longer using kmail, for instance. When
kmail akonadified, I tried it, then switched to claws-mail. It's ALSO one
reason I'm using gentoo, I get to choose whether I build kde with akonadi
and semantic-desktop support, or not. And I choose not. I see the kdepim
folks vision, and they're free to pursue it, but their path and my path
simply diverged, that's all. Kde runs SO much nicer without the weight
of semantic-desktop dragging it down.

And if the systemd and udev path fully merge, I'll have a choice at that
point. If systemd looks mature and stable enough at that point to be
used on my system, I'll probably try it. I might like it. =:^) Or, like
akonadified kmail, I may find it a rube goldberg of a system that I'd
rather stay away from. Given history, I'm sure there will be alternate
solutions available, tho it'll no doubt take some serious work and
adaptation on my part to switch.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman


1i5t5.duncan at cox

May 10, 2012, 7:53 PM

Post #24 of 68 (1086 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

Duncan posted on Fri, 11 May 2012 00:59:22 +0000 as excerpted:

> Fabio Erculiani posted on Thu, 10 May 2012 22:48:29 +0200 as excerpted:
>
>> On a side note, I find it quite odd to be accused of trash talking by
>> Linux Kernel people.
>
> hwoarang is a kernel person?

FWIW, I see the gregkh post you were referring to, now. Odd indeed, tho
he just said rude, not trash talk.

FWIW2, I'd have probably included a "IME" (in my experience) disclaimer
to that failaudio, tho I don't disagree with that label. Toning down may
be worthwhile for all sides, tho. This isn't lkml and I don't think most
would want it to be.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman


gregkh at gentoo

May 11, 2012, 5:39 PM

Post #25 of 68 (1075 views)
Permalink
Re: Tightly-coupled core distro [was: Council meeting summary for 3 April 2012] [In reply to]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 01:44:53PM +0200, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Greg KH schrieb:
> > On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 08:51:37PM +0200, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> >> Please stop throwing lennartware at people. FailAudio has been enough, thanks.
> > The use of these terms is both rude and totally uncalled for. You
> > should be ashamed of yourself.
> >
> > Seriously, that's unacceptable behavior from anyone.
>
> You mean as unacceptable as calling C++ proponents "full of
> bullshit"[1], developers of another operating system "masturbating
> monkeys"[2] and security researchers as "people wanking around with
> their opinions"[3]?

Did I say any of that?

I have no idea why you are comparing me to anyone else. Who ever said
that those links are acceptable behavior either? I never did.

greg k-h

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